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12:02 AM
@Vickel The OP doesn’t seem satisfied with the answer nor with the responses from the other person in the comments, so between all that and the lack of clarify in the question, I don’t know how anybody else could be able to discern what they need
 
@sideshowbarker sure, I phrased badly, talking about 2 sock accounts involved in the same question
but I'm not 100% sure
 
aha, of course
yeah
 
 
1 hour later…
1:17 AM
@Dharman This has 4,000 views, which is > 1k views/year. The dup-target has 559 views and has no other duplicates. That's basically the epitome of a needed duplicate, or even that the duplicate direction should be reversed. Why do you feel this duplicate is unneeded and should be deleted?
 
@Makyen both question and dupe target should have been closed as a dupe of this which has 217k views. I'm all in favour of deleting both (I have closed the original dupe target as well).
 
@Nick If the original dup-target is also a dup, then I'm fine with deleting the original dup-target (550 views) and retargeting the question you were originally requesting be deleted as a dup of the question which you've indicated. However, > 1k views per year is, IMO, definitely in the useful range for being a duplicate.
 
1:44 AM
@Makyen given the title and code of the 4k view question are basically identical to the 217k question, if the 4k question is gone too it should? automatically tend to direct people to the 217k one which seems a good result. That question also has an answer which explains why most people run into this problem (converting from mysql_ to mysqli_)
I'll leave it up to you though. I've retargeted the first question, which has removed all the delete votes. You can choose whether to delete it.
 
@Nick Interesting. I was not aware that opening and closing the question removed delete votes. I can agree that it probably should, but I had previously been under the impression that they were basically "forever", until deleted..
 
2:07 AM
@Nick Well, the 217k one and the 4k one have both existed for a few years. There's something about the 4k one which gets a significant number of views. IMO, it's fine to leave it as it is now with the 217k question as the dup-target. It would be really nice if we could see the number of views for a question binned by at least year, if not by month. or week That would help significantly to determine if a duplicate is remains a good signpost (i.e. how it performs as a signpost over time).
Having the dup-target be the 217k view question is much better. Unfortunately, users are not automatically redirected to the dup-target unless the user is not logged in and the question doesn't have any answers, so they'll have to click on the link to the dup-target, but having that link be useful is important.
 
2:30 AM
1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null, no longer valid
 
 
3 hours later…
 
 
2 hours later…
7:20 AM
@Makyen yeah - it took me a bit by surprise too, but I think it's probably because I (stupidly) reopened and then closed the question again rather than editing the duplicate list (which would have been the smart thing to do).
Anyway, file that away in the "don't do things this way as it has unexpected consequences" basket
I'm happy with how you've left the questions (1 open, 1 deleted).
 
8:06 AM
Are link only answers that point to other SO posts NAA? stackoverflow.com/a/64168133/9473764
 
@Nick Yes
See this answer: "Every answer that consists of only a link, regardless of the link content's source, should be flagged as link-only answer."
 
@JeanneDark thanks for the reference
 
8:26 AM
@Nick it's not just Link-Only; answers that only link to another SO answer usually mean that the question can be closed as a duplicate too
 
@Adriaan absolutely although in that case I was not SME enough to make that call.
 
@Nick oh, I agree on that. Usually I drop it here in the room for an SME to take a peek. If the answer is upvoted/accepted/has a comment by OP thanking them I see that as an indication the dupe target is fitting though.
 
@Adriaan good point - I'll do that in the future.
 
8:53 AM
Congrats to @tripleee on having just passed 5000 Stack Overflow posts
7
(and by "just" I mean "in the last 24 hours")
 
@RyanM thanks, I didn't realize
pretty meager average yield honestly
 
@RyanM Are you stalking us? ;)
 
@Scratte If I were, I'd have been more timely :-p no, I just happened to open their profile and notice it.
 
9:07 AM
a more pertinent question (in this room at least :-) is how many posts I have closed and deleted
 
@RyanM that makes you look a bit slack :-)
 
I'm curious how many posts I've close-voted. I've close-voted 2492 non-deleted posts, but that's far from a complete picture, especially having done 7756 close vote queue reviews.
 
@RyanM get to 10k rep, then the number on the profile shown will be accurate iirc ;)
 
@Adriaan Just checked, it does appear to show the correct number if you have moderator tools privileges. Of course, it's also interesting to count the number of non-deleted posts in certain cases...only 16.8% of the posts I've downvoted are still on the site :-)
If you count only non-deleted posts, I upvote almost as much as I downvote.
 
Once a post is deleted, it's removed from your list of post you've downvoted, even if you're above 10K
 
9:18 AM
Oh interesting, you're correct. It remains in the close votes list, though.
I didn't think to check both because I assumed they'd work the same way
 
But what of all the posts one has close votes between 3K and 10K? Do they suddenly appear?
 
@Scratte beg your pardon?
 
@Scratte If I'm understanding your question correctly, yes: it doesn't matter what your rep was when you cast the vote.
 
Yes, the only thing that ever matters is your privileges "now"
imagine if SO kept track of the current rep for every action you make
 
Oh.. that's annoying. So if one wants to know what posts one close voted when one was below 10K, one has to log them. Or wait until one reaches 10K before casting the first close vote :(
 
9:26 AM
You mean questions that were subsequently deleted?
I'm pretty sure you can see your non-deleted close votes
 
@AndrasDeak Yes
 
@Scratte I think you inverted a condition somewhere: they do suddenly appear when you hit 10k
 
@RyanM Ahh.. Ok :)
 
@tripleee it looked cool the 123k reputation, 124 is meh :( :P
 
@Makyen exactly what Nick said. It was linked to the wrong target and both can be deleted. If you want to retarget and keep it then it's fine but we already have enough such questions and this is a very trivial error. We can also delete both answers so that it redirects automatically
 
9:30 AM
@IslamElshobokshy let me try to get to 321
 
@tripleee fair enough fair enough
 
@Dharman I, personally, don't have a problem with deleting the answers, but I'm not a SME, so can't evaluate them.
 
 
2 hours later…
12:10 PM
Morning
 
@Adriaan I'd say they are too much of answers to be NAA, so that flag might be risky. Even "Use floats to float the image, the text should wrap beside" can be considered an answer.
 
Can we that SD flagged answer?
 
12:25 PM
@Nick just flag as abusive I'd say. It's not spam, nor very rude, but does abuse the system for posting irrelevant images. Thus I think abusive applicable here
 
It's nuked now.
 
@Adriaan there was actually some HTML in the answer as well, it didn't show up as it wasn't formatted as a code block. However it didn't seem to really address the question...
 
@Nick ah, right, I didn't see that. Oh well, I don't think we lost much with the red flag deletion
 
@Adriaan agreed. I had flagged it as VLQ anyway
 
12:45 PM
@JeanneDark Wow! That question is terrible... and 31k views!
 
And 14 answers!
 
I guess lots of people are interested in income tax...
@bad_coder seems more like it's asking for recommendations?
 
@Nick Maybe both, "how do I" + "is there a tool"
 
12:58 PM
@Adriaan The whole post was copied from Microsoft, save the spam links
 
@Machavity I thought as much given the mod deletion. Thanks for the info!
 
1:48 PM
 
2:05 PM
@Vickel What details does it need?
 
@Dharman I didn't see It's checking by: class_exists($class, FALSE) where the second parameter disables checking in autoload., retracting my CV
@TylerH could you please bin my last CV request?, thanks.
 
^^ SD report: I flagged it VLQ but there's a link in an underscore (right after "encontré").
 
@Vickel binned per your request
 
thanks
 
@JeanneDark A link which leads to the URL similar to the username
 
2:55 PM
Is this question suitable for SO?
 
3:06 PM
@JeanneDark I suppose not...
 
@TylerH It was just closed. I wondered because it received many downvotes but stayed open. And it had something to do with a programming tool.
 
3:31 PM
@JeanneDark Personally I think it was erroneously closed. It's not a high quality question, so I think the downvotes are justified, but it's absolutely on-topic: it's about installing/configuring a programming environment.
Not sure what the moderator was thinking there
 
@TylerH But it is somewhat unclear what the problem is, so details and clarity is needed. See the latest edit ("Now the problem is there is no thing like edit with idle").
 
@JeanneDark seems clear enough for one user to repeatedly answer in the comments
 
@TylerH Repeatedly because the first comment didn't fully solve the issue (-> question unclear), so they wrote a 2nd one. We don't know if that helped since the OP didn't update it. And the title is also not to useful for future users.
 
@JeanneDark Sounds like you've already made up your mind
 
@TylerH Just trying to find a justification for the mod's decision to close it. You said you didn't know what they were thinking there and maybe that was it.
 
3:41 PM
Maybe, but it wouldn't be hard to fix most of the problems with an edit instead of a close vote
the remaining issue of "the first suggestion didn't resolve the problem/caused a new problem" is not really an issue... that happens with a ton of questions/answers
 
I wouldn't dare to suggest an edit to a closed question
 
it can result in either an edit to the answer or an entirely new question to solve that problem (in this case the former would be more appropriate though)
@JeanneDark Right, I mean the moderator should have edited, not a sub-2k user :-)
 
@JeanneDark It already has a reopen vote, so an edit will not make a difference :) But.. don't. Some may not notice the vote and reject your edit just because it's closed.
 
That's my concern
 
@TylerH But if you spend time editing Questions, you can't close vote 1500 posts in a day.
 
3:45 PM
@Scratte That's a feature, not a bug :-)
 
Not sure I understand..?
 
I'm saying someone shouldn't be close-voting 1500 posts in a single day.
 
Yes, I agree with you absolutely.
 
because as you can see they miss opportunities for improvement in lieu of closure
among other issues
 
The reopen queue is going to fill up as well.. I'm not sure it solves a problem.
 
3:48 PM
When it's brought to light the community can remedy it (edits, reopen votes)
 
stackoverflow.com/review/close/27296116 love when the audits are so easy to spot...
 
@JeanneDark No, they cannot. That was the point of the last meta post about it.
And when you say "remedy it" you mean fix any mistakes? :) Normally reviewers doing it wrong gets suspended.
 
@Scratte Depends on how many wrong closures are among them and that post contained no useful info about it.
@Scratte It needn't be during a review, rather referring to the case here where the link was posted
 
@JeanneDark It takes longer to find out if it was done right than it takes to close it, no? :)
 
@Scratte I don't deny it, just saying the research was missing
 
3:53 PM
@JeanneDark I can understand why. Every post on Stack is closeable. Not one is perfectly fine. So saying this and this and this post shouldn't have been closed on meta will be nitpicked into closing Stack itself.
@JeanneDark Missing research is not a close reason. It's a downvote reason :)
 
@Scratte That meta post was not closed IIRC
 
@JeanneDark No. It wasn't. But if you open up a new post about whether it should have been closed, will probably do the trick.
 
@Scratte I agree in principle, but if I present several cases in which the questions look fine and closing a bit too strict it's different from just saying most were objectively wrongly closed with no examples whatsoever
 
@JeanneDark That is true. But.. the faster one does things, the more risk of making mistakes. I'd be more comfortable with less risk.
 
3:57 PM
It literally says to ask the same question again if the duplicate is not helpful.
Why do we even bother closing them as duplicate
 
@Dharman Yes, there are several meta posts about this.
 
Why? Why does it tell you to ask the question again?
 
@Scratte I agree with you. I'm not saying they should close that many questions per day. I saw that one question and was unsure so I asked here. Then it was closed by a mod and I tried to make sense of that decision. I do not know how many and which questions they close per day.
 
@Dharman Perhaps Stack just want more Questions, more posts, more users, more whatever.. :)
@JeanneDark Can you see the close vote queue statistics?
 
4:02 PM
@Scratte Yes, I can see that.
 
@JeanneDark In my latest experince.. if it's closed by just one individual, I like to make up my own mind on it. Of course I can't do anything about it, I can only have my own thoughts about it. Sometimes if I feel strongly enough I apologize to the user in a comment on their post.
 
@Dharman This question with mod answer might be useful.
@Scratte You apologize for the single user closing it?
 
@JeanneDark No, I do not mention the user closing it. I just say that I'm sorry that it was closed. Some times I tell them to find information elsewhere, where to find it, and that I cannot help them beyond that. Even if they edit their post, I found it was perfectly fine to begin with, so there's no hope.
I find old closed post with users answering in comments on closed Questions also mentioning that it should never have been closed. That they're cast a reopen vote, but nothing.. the post is still closed. It's easy to close a good post, it's insanely hard to get it reopened.
And while those good post just sit and wait for Roomba, "My tictactoe program is returning 5 instead of 4"-debugging Questions gets Answers :D
 
@Scratte I guess there are just much too many posts, so bad ones aren't closed fast enough or at all and good ones might not get reopened when they should. I can't really join that discussion since I just look for questions that need to be closed. In short, I mostly see questions of dubious quality. That's why my perspective might be a bit different.
 
4:18 PM
When an OP deletes a question after receiving an answer, I flag it. Should I bother with that if I think the question shouldn't be undeleted anyway?
 
@JeanneDark I actively go and search for closed posts. You can do it too :) Of course we may not agree on what's fine. But debugging Questions don't get closed here if they have an mcve. Anything goes with an mcve.. nothing seem to goes without one. It's my pet peeve here.
@cigien If it's a bad Question, then I wouldn't bother. I expect the answerer wasn't aware of the off-topicness or something like that?
 
@Scratte Looking for posts to get closed and closed posts to get reopened would be a bit too much for me.
And I can't do anything with closed questions anyway, there's no flag for reopening
 
@JeanneDark I don't look for them to reopen them. Because I can't anyway. I look for them because I'm curious and because some of them benefit from my attention.
I don't care for answering posts much these days.. and there's a lot to be learnt from a few comments on a closed post :)
 
@Scratte Wasn't a bad question really, just an unneeded dupe (which might be the same thing). And answerer didn't know it was a dupe IIRC (I'm only referring to cases where answer was posted in good faith, anyway). I thought I should flag so that mods could do what they do to discourage such behavior, i.e. deleting after being answered (my flags for this do get approved).
 
@cigien Then I think you should. You can even ask them to close it as a duplicate, I suppose. Only I can't say if they will do it.
 
4:25 PM
@Scratte I'm also not so much into answering posts
 
@JeanneDark But you have a very impressive reputation to Answer ratio! :)
 
Thank you!
 
4:38 PM
@cigien Rather than raising a custom mod flag, you can vote to undelete the question (if you think that's appropriate). You can even make [undel-pls] requests in here (if you're not involved in the post), or raise the issue in a Meta post, to (maybe) get the other 2 undelete votes. Generally, mods don't like custom flags for things that can be handled by the community.
 
@Scratte The "see there" part makes it link-only-ish NAA for me
 
@DanielWiddis The "Operators has a priority." and "Also, use round brackets for building right sequence of calculations" makes it an Answer, no?
 
@Scratte I ran across that as well and I was more of the opinion that it was an NAA since the content of the non-link answer boiled down to "there is a table". The round bracket suggestion is a style preference, not an answer.
 
@Scratte Even without the rest "use round brackets for building right sequence of calculations." makes it a risky NAA
 
@Scratte Meh. I'm still on the NAA side of the fence but I can understand that there's a sliver of something poorly attempting to answer the question there.
 
4:44 PM
Hmm.. I'm on the "Operators has a priority." is an answer. But I'm not going to say it's a great answer :)
 
@Scratte How come you've gone back to the start of the war? You were at the end...
 
@code11 Using () is not a style preference of 2 * (4 + 3) ;)
 
I also sent my flag before that second sentence was added in. This is a perfect example of something I'd agonize over in the review queue, come to the conclusion that it wasn't an NAA, and then have a nice long vacation from reviewing.
 
@AdrianMole That's the question really, should I mod flag if I think the answer shouldn't be undeleted? Is it worthwhile just for enforcing that answered questions shouldn't be deleted? That doesn't seem like something the community can handle.
 
@DavidBuck I was on the verge of the flower power.. then I figured the start of the war was a better buffer :)
 
4:46 PM
Heh - now you make the issue more interesting. The only real answer, then, is: "It's up to you!"
 
@AdrianMole I like your edit :) Thank you :)
 
@Scratte Using parenthesis when in doubt of operator precedence "just to be safe" is a style preference and seems to be what the answer suggests.
(and I just accidentally admitted it was an answer by saying that)
 
@DanielWiddis I suppose. I use them all the time to be less confusing to other developers. I mean I can't even count how many SQL I've "fixed" when the first person forgot the precedence rules.
 
I mean, the real answer is that most of this must be academic since if most people saw this in production they'd run away screaming. Because of that, the 'use parenthesis' isn't really an answer to the question because the question wants to understand the evaluation when it appears ambiguous.
 
4:50 PM
Question for the community. I'm pondering asking a Meta question along the lines of "what's the best use of my time for user-level moderation." I can't find a similar question that prioritizes queues, flagging, voting, editing, etc. Would such a question be well received? Currently my best guess at what the community values is in the interrogation questions asked of moderator candidates challenging their stats.
 
@code11 I prefer the other Answer. It's explicit in what's going on.
@DanielWiddis That sounds... opinion based :D
 
It's meta.
 
...so? :)
 
And it can be answered with stats. Close Voting because long queue, etc.
 
@Scratte Agreed wholeheartedly. I was going to write up something like that, got about halfway done before that one came in. Closed my tab and remembered why I never answer anything.
 
4:53 PM
@DanielWiddis I have sometimes considered posting a similar question. For example, the best use of my mere 50 daily close votes between the three review queues that eat them (Close Votes, First Posts and Triage).
 
@AdrianMole Right. That was one of my questions. So it sounds like one potential "useful" upvote.
 
@DanielWiddis No, it can't. If you're a bad close voter, but a great editor, you should edit.. that's one type of potential answer. You should monitor every queue for numbers, and focus your attention there.. that's another answer. You should use all your close votes, reopen votes, up/down votes, edit at least 100 posts a day.. and give up your normal life :)
Ohh.. if you have close votes, work the close vote queue. Kindergarden users can't do that, but they can work the other queues.. is yet another answer :)
But try it out. Getting a post closed on meta is not the end of your meta life :)
 
I do think it' falls into the type of opinion based questions permitted on Meta discussions.
 
@DanielWiddis The kind of answer I'd be interested in such a post specifically pertains to low rep users like myself. I can go through and find bad stuff all day, flagging it, but since I can't close vote, is that really helpful? A well upvoted meta hinted that votes rather than flags were the bottleneck.
 
4:57 PM
@code11 Tip: Pick old posts to Answer. There's no pressure to do it fast :)
 
Votes to feed the roomba?
 
@DanielWiddis vote whenever you see a question that needs an upvote or downvote, regardless of where you see it. If you can access the close vote queue, reopen queue, and suggested edit queues, those are probably the highest priority
 
This is Spam, right? stackoverflow.com/a/64173435/12708583 Because when you look at the youtube video, it's the same person as the profile pic.
 
@Scratte But kiddies raising close flags from Triage or First Posts ends up fattening the Close Vote queue. (I know, so does raising a close vote from those queues, but it's rather less fattening!)
 
@10Rep Yes; failure to disclose affiliation
 
4:59 PM
@TylerH Ok, thanks.
 
@TylerH sounds like you can answer my question when I post it. I'll probably write something up this weekend.
 
@AdrianMole I'm not entirely sure what happens to a post that gets 3 "Looks OK" and a close vote from Triage. I know if only "Unsalvageable" comes with flags and not votes, they are marked disputed and the post never enters the close vote queue.
 
@Scratte I think the close vote sticks. If so, then I guess it's in the CV queue. Can you find such a post, and I'll check if the CV is still on it.
 
@AdrianMole You're trying to make a point, that I think does not exist. So, you put your close vote on a post in the Triage queue.. but then you put one less in the Close Vote queue. How is the post that got your close vote any less or more fat depending on where it got its close vote? :D
@AdrianMole The vote may still be on it, but.. did it ever enter the queue? You can find out in about 14 days time to see if it exists the queue. Or.. if it gets closed somehow and there's a result from the close vote queue.
 
@Scratte I was being a bit flippant. But, if I push something into the CV queue with a vote, then it needs only two more CVs to get closed (and thus, leave the queue); however, a post that goes into the CVQ with a flag needs three CVs to dispatch it.
 
5:05 PM
@AdrianMole Yes.. :) But in either case you've put a vote on a post that didn't have one :D It doesn't matter where you found the post.
 
@Scratte I think Adrian's point is that a flag is not a vote
 
^ A flag isn't a vote, a flag only pushes into the cv queue.
 
@TylerH I know what the point is. I'm saying that the point isn't really valid. A post still needs 3 votes. If someone chooses to put those votes in triage doesn't make the closing any faster, comparing to going to the close vote queue instead and putting the vote on the post there.
 
@Scratte A flag puts a post in the CV Queue and its CV count is 0. A vote puts a post in the CV Queue and its CV count is 1. There is a difference in the amount of effort/number of people required to complete those two posts: 1 vote
 
And if by any chance that the post doesn't enter the close vote queue if it's a "Looks OK" from Triage, then the vote is likely wasted.
 
5:10 PM
If a mod sees it, 1 vote might be all it takes
 
@JeanneDark Yes, there are several edge cases.
 
@TylerH But Adrian has one less vote because it's used on the post. How is it more effective used in Triage on a "clean" post than in the close vote queue on a "clean" post? The post is going to need 2 votes afterwards anyway.
 
@Scratte That's a different question and I don't know because I don't go to the waste of time triage queue
 
But.. I am very curious to find out if by any chance a post in Triage escapes the close vote queue if there's a disagreement and the only voter did it in the queue.
 
Should you vote on posts in triage and not just send it to the close vote queue if necessary?
 
5:13 PM
@TylerH I see. But the discussion was how to most effectively spend one's curation energy.
 
@Scratte I think the answer there is just "don't go to the triage queue"
 
@JeanneDark The way it works with flags is that if the consensus is "Looks OK", then all the flags raised inside the queue are disputed and the post escapes the close vote queue. So my curiosity goes to: Does it escape the queue with a close vote too?
@TylerH But... it's the most effective way to get suspended ;)
 
But, if three <3K reviewers flag a post in Triage as "Unsalvageable," then the review is complete but the post has zero CVs (and will be in the CVQ, requiring three votes). However, if three 3K+ reviewers voted it as "Unsalvageable," then the review is complete, the post is closed, and there is no nett burden on the CVQ. Is not?
 
FAQ: "The primary goal of Triage is to quickly sort potentially-problematic posts into categories that can be routed elsewhere."
 
@AdrianMole Ah. I see. So you're effectively working both queues at the same time :)
 
5:20 PM
Not me! I don't do Triage these days.
 
Are you scared of the moderator? :) Living on the edge is too wild? :D
 
@JeanneDark Triage is a way of quickly getting review banned for weird reasons ;-)
 
@JeanneDark Good point. I'm not arguing with the intended purpose of Triage; nor that <3K users shouldn't be reviewing it.
 
@code11 Just to throw a wrench into this: that can also depend on how close-vote queue reviewers interact with the queue. I use a filter ([android] [android-studio] [kotlin]) and occasionally hit the end of the posts in that filter. So one might argue it depends on what tag you're flagging in. I don't know how many others do this, though. That said, I can usually do all 40 of my reviews in those tags.
 
... the primary purpose seemingly being to re-route the post to a Meta discussion on "Why was I review banned for this?" xD
 
5:22 PM
@JeanneDark Trust me.. if you do it quick in there (unless you just close everything), you're getting suspended :) It may have been meant as triage once, but that's not how it works anymore.
 
@Scratte I'm not disputing that nor am I saying that it's the most effective way. But the intented way is probably to send it to the close vote queue in triage and then vote to close there (if it shows up).
 
@AdrianMole "because we have to use these shiny ban buttons for something..."
 
hehe
 
Could a C#er take a look at this please. It doesn't look like an answer but it's been edited out of LQP. Not sure if it's poorly worded or genuinely NAA stackoverflow.com/a/64123860/7508700
 
@DavidBuck I'm not a C#er or anything, but it seems to be NAA. They're saying, "I have the same problem, this is what I have".
 
5:25 PM
@DavidBuck Yep! That's NAA.
 
@DavidBuck NAA
 
Good. In which case could you please be so kind as to reflag. The LQP edit has already marked mine helpful.
 
I think I qualify as a C#er
 
I can only spell it
 
I already gave it NAA, a -1 and a delete vote. You want more?
 
5:27 PM
Torches?
 
@AdrianMole That'll do.
 
I gave it an NAA, downvote. What else?
 
Actually, I think the "Requires editing" button's use is pretty clear when you understand what triage is because it sends it to other queues, so the OP won't be involved (it was confusing earlier when the description still mentioned the author, but that's no longer the case). I could imagine some of the confusion stems from the fact that many people might not consider a bio, introduction or thanks etc. to be worth removing.
 
@10Rep I upvoted the comment ...
 
@rene Natty has it now, also!
 
5:28 PM
I don't understand why I've been flagging many NAA's every day for months now, but only in the last 2-3 weeks I've had quite a few people editing NAAs from LQP
 
@rene I didn't see my auto comment :).
 
Maybe folks don't understand that any edit in LQP "completes" the review?
 
that ^
 
+1, I didn't realize this in the close queue
 
I get that. It's the fact that it's become a regular occurrence in the last couple of weeks vs. I've rarely encountered it before
 
5:32 PM
@JeanneDark There are more issues than just that. The problem is that reviewing is hard, especially at first. One needs to know about the technology to know if something is OK. But, there's no introduction and users don't understand that they're reviewing for on-topicness. I'm pretty sure most think they're just reviewing for spam and really bad stuff at first. The thing with Triage is that it's so visible when users are doing it wrong.
But users are actually doing it just as wrong in the other queues, it's just that its less noticable.
 
@Makyen Please remove my closing request as the OP already provided an MRE
 
So in the end triage is for reviewing the reviewers?
 
@JeanneDark Pretty much :D It's effectively become so anyway
 
@Scratte Perhaps because Triage only exists on SO? I guess Triage is more like a test than a review queue.
 
@eyllanesc binned per your request
 
5:34 PM
@rene Will the new NAA flag(s) send that post back to LQP? Or is this a reasonable use case for a [del-pls] request?
 
@TylerH thanks
 
@10Rep It's the ultimate test. It's testing my patience too. Last time I reviewed, I got 5 disputed flags on obvious off-topic posts.
@AdrianMole New flags will send it back.
 
@Scratte I've stopped reviewing Triage. I'm particularly done with it because it's more strenuous than any other review queue, including LQP or Suggested Edits. I don't want to risk failing an audit, since I have already been review banned for almost 3 months.
 
@AdrianMole it should, but doesn't appear to have done so, for some reason...
 
5:38 PM
@10Rep Funny.. I prefer audits :)
 
@10Rep When I hit it, I never click "looks ok". I skip several, find the CV-able ones and unsalvagably close vote them. I've avoided (failed) audits so far.
 
IIRC, Triage was created to take pressure off other queues (specifically, First Posts). Now that so many people have been 'bitten' by Triage reviewing, it seems that FP is getting to be a regularly big queue (currently at 420, and I've been doing 40/day for quite a while).
 
@RyanM I think there's a time delay.. also, I'm not sure you can see it if you flag it yourself.
 
@DanielWiddis But I can do without the stress. I'd rather review Help and Improvement than Triage, tbh.
 
@DanielWiddis I risk things by clicking "Looks OK" on post that I think is fine. Then I prepare myself for a defense :D But.. I only do it rarely.
 
5:40 PM
@Scratte I think it's just the Close/Reopen queues that have that time delay, but I'm not certain.
 
WTH
closed a question yesterday because it's a SU question, even linked to the SU dupe target
OP asks on SU and it gets migrated here -_-
 
@RyanM That has a business time-delay. I think en-queuing and de-queuing is done by scripts or something.
 
@TylerH That right there is called a bruh moment.
 
@TylerH I suspect they saw "CSS" and didn't really read it
...oh, it was a moderator. Actually, there's a decent argument that it's asking how to write the CSS that overrides in that manner.
 
Pattern matching website: stackoverflow.com
9
 
5:46 PM
lol
so much spam
 
@JeanneDark Yeah that site's trouble, all sorts of crap there
 
@JeanneDark I've heard people say it's unwelcoming, and downvoting. Like seriously, what?
 
oops ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
@RyanM The deciding factor, IMO, is that it is asking about how to change the browsing experience from the perspective of a user. It's not asking from the perspective of a programmer how to code something for a specific site or program.
The annoying thing here is that mods can't undo a migration I don't think
 
@TylerH I pinged David
 
5:59 PM
Linking to a library and just giving the name is NAA, right? like here
 
@Scratte Yes, it's link only. So flag as NAA.
 
Well.. it's not only a link. It has the name of a library.
 
@Scratte That isn't really relevant. If the answerer explained how to use the library, then it would make sense.
 
@Scratte if OP is just asking for library recommendations, then it's not NAA. However in that case the question would be close-worthy
 
Plus, the OP didn't request a library, they asked how to use a function, namely async.
 
6:02 PM
In this case it's NAA because the answerer just gave a library recommendation as a link and didn't show how to use it/how it solves OP's problem
(in my opinion)
 
@TylerH I agree. I'm just paranoid :)
 
@TylerH regarding that CSS question Just close it. ...
 
I'm just asking, but what is the difference between the NATO queue, and the late answers queue?
 
@10Rep NATO shows all late answers. Late Answers only shows answers from users with low rep
 
@rene Yeah, I don't know why OP bothered to ask on SU in the first place since the canonical is already there. Though David is not really correct; the canonical asks about Firefox but it's the same solution for any browser.
 
6:05 PM
@Machavity I see. Thanks.
 
and it's still just as true today as it was in 2011
but the "I know :-)" is probably about the mod flag I raised about it
 
Is this NAA? If not, is it link only? stackoverflow.com/questions/62949070/…
 
@cigien It's not something which the community can handle, but it is something which the system handles. Deleting your question after you've received an answer is the worst thing you can do with respect to being question banned. The system considers deleting after someone else has put in the effort to answer to be actively hostile on the part of the question OP (i.e. they are wasting a bunch of people's time, probably for just their own benefit).
@Scratte @JeanneDark We encourage reopen-pls requests be posted in here. If you see a question which you feel has been incorrectly closed (and can't vote to reopen), why are you not posting a reopen-pls in here?
 
@Makyen Because I'd probably need to make it prettier and also answer why it needs to be reopened. I come across them and see other users (than the author) arguing that is shouldn't have been closed. I came across 5 such posts yesterday and again 5-6 the day before. It's too many.
 
@Makyen Oh, I see. I'll stop flagging them in that case. Thanks.
 
6:16 PM
@Scratte If one can't explain why a question should be reopened (a requirement for all *-pls requests here), I think it's probably not appropriate to complain about it being closed.
Making questions prettier (whatever that means) is not a requirement for posting *-pls requests about them, however.
 
@Makyen And I feel that any post can be argued into being closed. It's much much harder to argue why it should be reopened. Every post on Stack has some kind of little flaw that makes it closable.
 
@Scratte That really sounds like a cop-out. You're saying "I'm upset that this post is closed, but to be open it needs to be edited in a way that I see as possible, but I'm not going to edit it. I'm just going to be upset that someone else didn't see how it might be edited and/or made the same choice I did to not edit it." If it needs to be edited in order to be open, that's the same as saying that it should be closed, until such an edit happens.
4
Currently, there are no limits to the number of reopen-pls requests which a user can post in here. If it gets abused, the ROs will talk to the user, but that's not going to be for 5 or 6 such requests in a day.
@cigien np. If the question should be undeleted, please do flag and explain. If you see a pattern of someone deleting shortly after the question is answered, then feel free to flag, particularly if the user is an established user who potentially has enough activity on SO to be effectively immune to question bans.
 
@TylerH I'm not saying I can't explain it. Closing for the wrong reasons happens, so one can explain wrong and still get a post closed, no? :)
@Makyen I've tried a few times. The room were divided on every time leading to a bigger discussion and nothing came of it. So yeah.. you can call it a cop-out. I do not see it as a viable option.
 
@Scratte Not really. Our, SO's, criteria has never been perfection. We want answerable, on-topic questions which when combined with answers are helpful to future visitors. Most of the close reasons are: A) This isn't a topic that's on-topic here; B) This type of question doesn't fit our Q & A format; C) This question can't be answered definitively (with many reasons why that might be the case).
@Scratte Well, now you're into a different issue: questions which should be closed, but are just closed for the wrong reason. That's a very different issue from "this question shouldn't be closed". Yeah, closing for the wrong reason happens. It's even more prevalent now with some of the close reasons being quite unclear as to what they mean. Only requiring 3 CV to close also makes it less likely that a consensus will form about the close reason to use, particularly when multiple reasons apply.
I can certainly see as helpful leaving a comment or two on the question describing in more detail what needs to be improved in the question, when it's not already covered in the displayed close reason.
 
@Makyen FWIW, any system with rules is never perfection. I don't want to get political, but the governmental system has flaws, business systems have flaws, and SO's system of rules have flaws. Some users just prefer not to do anything due to these flaws, which may not seem appealing to others, but it's perfectly acceptable.
 
6:32 PM
@Makyen That's not what I meant. I meant that just because I don't argue perfectly for a reopen, doesn't mean a post should be closed. Just as not arguing perfectly for why a post should be closed, doesn't mean it shouldn't. That's the message I replied to. And maybe I can't argue perfectly for the reopen.
 
@10Rep True, yes it is acceptable. However, not doing anything tends to end up with the person more and more frustrated with the situation and that nothing happens to rectify what they see to be a problem.
 
@Makyen Yes, that's how the Tom Sawyering effect wears off. But trying to do the right thing and feeling like there's no point will get most people there faster.
 
6:47 PM
@Scratte True, none of us are perfect at that (or anything else; we're human (well...mostly :) ) ). We all fail to get our point across from time to time, and are sometimes wrong. It's also possible that our opinion is different than the majority. There's nothing wrong with not sharing the majority opinion (usually; I'm sure we can all come up with situations where not sharing the majority opinion is actually very wrong, at least in our opinions).
But, basically, if you don't post a reopen-pls, it definitely won't be reopened through this room. If you do post a reopen-pls, the worst thing that happens is that people disagree with you and there's a discussion on the relative merits of a question being reopened, which is something we definitely want, as it's part of having good, open questions.
Even if you are not successful in getting a particular question reopened, the discussion itself is likely to be of benefit. People who read the discussion will likely examine their own opinions. If their opinion differs from yours, that's OK. But them not even seeing your opinion leaves them with no opportunity to know that someone else they respect sees something differently. Overall, such discussions are part of forming a consensus about what should be open and what should be closed.
Not saying anything for a particular situation where you think something is wrong lets go of an opportunity to help shape the mutual understanding of what should and shouldn't happen (opening and closing questions in this specific case, but generally applicable).
@Scratte Yes, it can feel like jousting a windmills, but it's not. It usually has some effect on how people view things. It can be quite frustrating, but it's not useless, even though it can often feel that way in the moment.
 
Tell me about it @Makyen - three close votes cast and nothing happening ;)
 
@Makyen You have a point that nothing will happen if I do not post it. But if I post it and nothing happens anyway or the post gets nitpicked into being closeable, I will loose my drive and general interest here. It's already happened a few times, though I didn't post them as requests. So now one should weigh the benefits of the risks versus the gain, no?
From my perspective it's a bit like this: I know the huge boulder should be on the other side of the river. But I'm a small squirrel. I can say that I know it should be over there, but I can't move it there. Then someone comes and tells me: If you don't start pushing, nothing will happen. But.. nothing will happen anyway, and if I push really really hard all day, I'll just get very tired and achy everywhere, and the builder will still be on the wrong side of the river :)
 
@Scratte - the third option would be not to take one's own efforts too seriously. That's the only way I can carry on doing what we're doing here.
 
7:03 PM
@Scratte Yes, you should weigh those. Although you should also consider that it was an opportunity for you to practice explaining your opinion in a way intended to persuade. That's something which most of us could use additional practice at doing. But, yes, you definitely should consider how you're going to feel about the various potential outcomes. However, you should also consider how you're going to feel about the situation, and all the additional situations, if you do nothing.
 
And then, for sure, someone else will come along and tell me to stop trying to do something so silly and useless :D And even tell me it's my own fault I'm achy everywhere.
 
@Scratte I am inclined to agree with you, if someone tells me something Im doing is silly, I just lose the drive to do it.
 
@Scratte That's an interesting analogy. But, what really needs to happen is that you convince other people to help you move the boulder.
 
@Makyen Ahh.. I see how you would take it there. But, that's not what just happened. I was told that I need to argue for why a post should be reopened. And even if I can see it, and I can read the experts opinion in comments on the post, I may fail to use the perfect argument. I've always felt that it takes more to get a post reopened than it takes to get it closed. It's a bit like the land on the other side of the river is on higher ground :)
 
^ We're called StackOverflow Close vote Reviewer s for a reason :).
 
7:09 PM
^ that!
 
@Scratte I prefer the version of your analogy with the typo! At least, in that case, you have an extra option: teach the builder how to swim. xD
 
@Scratte I guess the hard part is to convince other people. Once you do that, you're fine, right?
 
@AdrianMole Yes, but.. a post isn't just for the author. I think we forget that some times. But true, posts should just reopen themselves when they're fine :D
 
@Scratte I don't recall you being told that you need to argue for why a post should be reopened. However, you do need to state a reason it should be reopened in the reopen-pls request; and B) if people are not seeing it the same way you are, then it does help for you to explain why you feel the question should be open, but it's not required, and certainly doesn't need to be a perfect argument.
If the question should obviously be open, then you don't even need much of a statement in your request reason.
It is, often, harder to get a question reopened than to get it closed. Usually, it's quite a bit easier to see that a question obviously should be closed than to see that it's definitely on-topic and complete. It does take more effort to determine that some questions are on-topic, and may even require someone to be familiar with the technology involved, depending on the question. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
 
I really wish this question had been asked very close to April 1st. I so wanted to post a phoney answer: "Yes! Your computer will eventually run out of memory and you'll have to take to the repair centre and buy more."
 
7:21 PM
@10Rep But now it's winning the election. I don't win elections. I'm not a charismatic person with people skills that knows just how to twist the argument to make people think it was their own idea and all that funny stuff.
 
@Scratte You don't really need people skills to convince people a post needs to be reopened. Just a good argument is enough.
 
@10Rep You weren't here for the "clean code" argument :) Maybe you can find it in the logs.
 
@Scratte you mentioned having to answer why a post needs to be reopened as a reason to post a reopen-pls request, so I assumed you were referring to situations where you can't (e.g. don't know how to) explain why it should be reopened, rather than situations where you just can't be bothered.
 
@Scratte Link please - I love reading transcripts :)
 
@10Rep heh
 
7:30 PM
@TylerH I didn't mean a request reason. I meant the in-depth arguments that I think will come. And I think it's much easier to find some flaw that will make for an argument to leave it closed, than for me to argue for why it should be reopened. That's all.
 
They'd be even more fun with an edit history ;)
 
@10Rep I've seen the phrased used so many times on stack, so I'll use it myself: try this. And press enter :) It was in 2020, btw :)
@AdrianMole To be honest, I think they do not fully understand that leaked memory means. I think it's possible they think the memory goes lost, like if one has a hole in a cup or something :)
 
Yeah. Fortunately, the 'better angels' took over my psyche.
 
@AdrianMole LOL
 
7:47 PM
@Scratte It's true one should always be prepared to defend, at least nominally, a *-pls request, but the need to do this arises quite rarely. Certainly for less than 5% of all requests posted by a given user.
 
@TylerH indeed ... I rarely have to argue my requests per se (occasionally people disagree on the reason, but not on the need for closure ;)).
 
Am I the only one seeing a survey banner?
@tink But that's my point.. you're talking about closure :)
 
@Scratte Well ... whether I'd argue a closure or a re-open, I'd have to be prepared to argue either way. If I can't defend my view I'll concede. Meh ... (sh)it happens.
 
@Scratte I blocked it with uBlock long long ago
 
Do people share my view that the poster of this question has a rude/abusive username? (Sorry if I'm transgressing room rules.)
 
7:56 PM
@Scratte Is in this..
 
@AdrianMole it's on the fence for me
 
@TylerH I've only had to do it once.
 
@TylerH What - the username or whether I'm in transgression?
 
@AdrianMole Sorry, the username
the "user targeting" thing here I can forgive since you're just asking about something that could be rude/offensive
 
@AdrianMole certainly bending the rules ... if one goes by the face value it's OK, but we all know what it really says, and that makes it offensive .... clever, though.
 
7:57 PM
@AdrianMole I have no problems with it. I do not expect the name helps them though.
 
I would just suggest you mod-flag the question and explain, but you may be very concerned about helpful/declined flag statistics...
 
@AdrianMole Personally, I'm blind to user tags.
 
@Braiam So am I, Brian! xD
 
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