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1 hour later…
1:33 AM
@Nick Why bother spending time deleting it when Roomba will handle it?
 
@Makyen True. OTOH, the question's pretty hopeless - I don't see how the OP could possibly edit that into something answerable without a complete rewrite.
 
@Makyen why wait? My thinking is that it can't be improved into a real question but it could well waste time in the re-open queue if it is edited.
 
@EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica Do note that I didn't state the normal spiel of giving the OP time to edit it into shape, because I agree that it's not possible to do so for that question, without changing it into a completely different question.
 
@Nick Been there, done that, moving on. :-)
 
 
1 hour later…
3:44 AM
Actually, a bunch of typos and errors in the code in the question referred to above
 
 
2 hours later…
 
2 hours later…
 
 
1 hour later…
9:26 AM
Can't tell if this is attempted humour or trolling. Very odd, either way. stackoverflow.com/a/64074468/7508700
 
what the heck. very odd indeed.
 
9:42 AM
@Vega you appear to have suggested a duplicate of How to have activity in Android with a close button at the top corner? for several Android questions that are about how to create a Dialog with such a close button. They're different questions: Activities are not Dialogs, and so while the solution is similar, it's not the same.
 
10:10 AM
@DavidBuck hard to imagine that question lasting more than 10 minutes on the site these days. But there it is +89 (oops make that +88 :-)
 
@Nick Yep. It's one of those where you look at the upvotes and remind yourself that it is still a dreadful question (by current standards). Noticed that the OP never actually looked at the answers either as their 'last seen' time is the same as the post.
 
hmm, that question seems fine to me, how could it be more focused?
 
@DavidBuck But if you look at the times this post was viewed, it seems to have been hit a lot, and by the votes it seems a lot of people found it very useful.
 
@Scratte Lots of completely off-topic questions get lots of views and upvotes.
 
I also do not think lack of research effort is a close reason. I'm not confused about what they want to do.
@DavidBuck But.. how is it off-topic? I've done plenty of moving/copying data from a table in one database into another. It's fairly simple with a database link.
 
10:20 AM
@Scratte I didn't say it was. I was suggesting that being a good question is not a requirement to get views and upvotes.
 
@DavidBuck But.. you posted it here :)
 
As Nick stated, if someone posted that question today it would be promptly closed. It would probably have a couple of comments saying "What have you tried?" but that's all.
 
It would hopefully be closed as a duplicate of that one, because the question has already been answered.
 
@DavidBuck But that doesn't make it right to close it. It just means a lot of users misunderstand what Questions are ok.
 
And people post completely inappropriate "what have you tried" comments constantly. See e.g., this Shog9 answer
I really do not understand how it lacks focus. It asks how to do one specific thing, specifying what DBMS it's asking how to do it on via tags. I've voted to reopen it.
 
10:24 AM
They're asking How To do something, which doesn't require an attempt or a code sample, since they can't attempt to do something that they don't know how to do. And no one landing on the post that has a similar question is going to want to know their failed attempt. Apart from Shog9's Answer, I'll find a more recent post..
See Robert Harvey's Answer to Got review ban for reviewing as 'Looks OK' for a question which I still think is OK with ""What have you tried" doesn't really apply to "how do I do something" questions"
 
10:38 AM
I understand your point of view. I have read @Scratte's many notes about 'how to' questions and don't rush to close them as I once might have. If this question is reopened, that's the power of voting. I'm not convinced that a question that asks how to 'append records to the end' of an RDBMS table is particularly good, but that's the joy of democratic voting on questions. Whatever happens, the question won't Roomba so the perfectly good answers will still be there.
 
But can it be used at a duplicate target now?
Thanks :) I'm happy to have moved the border a little :)
 
I think this discussion reached the point where one has to recognize that SO answerers actually reached the point where they say that being on topic isn't enough, it has to be interesting.
Which may not seem "fair" to newcomers but for the users that have seen several thousands of questions and have answered a couple more of them, if there's nothing interesting in the site, they are going to leave. And the site wouldn't want that.
 
@Scratte Apparently it can.
 
@Braiam That's just silly. It's interesting because someone finds it useful. If no one had ever asked that before, it would be interesting as a new Question. That doesn't mean all the old ones that were interesting before are less interesting just because you've seen it before.
2
 
Also, as someone who had to do a bunch of tasks with tech I'm not super familiar with a week ago, these sort of questions are extremely useful
 
10:44 AM
So, as Jeff said "without a community of people willing to answer questions, it really doesn't matter if there are questions at all, does it?"
@RyanM I've been on that position, several times, I rarely go to SO for help for those.
 
@DavidBuck If I remember correctly, closed Question are still searchable, so I'm happy nothing is lost :)
 
On Android, my skill level is "designing widgets for a new UI framework." In PHP, my skill level is "searching for how to execute a SQL query string in PDO"
@Braiam I mean, no one in their right mind would go directly to SO, because SO search is never going to find it ;-)
 
@RyanM I see you've made a lot of progress in PHP :)
 
I typed my silly questions into Google and clicked the SO links :-p
4
 
@RyanM No, actually I do find them, I do not click those results.
I go to the manual results instead.
 
10:47 AM
@RyanM Every time.
 
@Braiam That's nice.. but you cannot make a determination solely out of the fact that you yourself don't use SO. Lots of other people do.
 
When I have a very basic question, the canonical resource in the internet is the language documentation. If there isn't, I'm actually using the wrong tool for the task.
 
In my experience, the manual often wants to tell me how the library works and how I should structure my app. When I'm just trying to figure out how to get my website back online, I really just want to know how to execute a query as a string, because I have a query string already and I just need to execute it.
 
@Braiam Again.. that's nice, but that doesn't make for closing the site. There are lots of other users that find Stack Overflow helpful.
 
Sure, it's all there. But it would take 10x longer to find it.
 
10:50 AM
See, that's the difference, I have other objectives. I don't want a solution, but understand how stuff works so I can solve it.
 
A key example: the PDO documentation suggests that there isn't a way to get the number of rows a query returned, because it's DBMS-dependent.
Stack Overflow will tell you that if you know you're using MySQL, it's easy.
 
Probably it expects you to count it in php.
 
It actually suggests issuing a second COUNT(*) query
 
But now you have two queries and one of them isn't going to be used by your application.
Also you introduce a race condition.
 
Exactly. And that's why I looked it up on Stack Overflow instead, because that advice seemed silly :-)
 
10:53 AM
So, you are seeing subpar answers on SO, congratulations! :D
 
@Braiam Wait..? The documentation says to use two queries but the SO says there's another way, but it's SO that's subpar?
 
Yeah, in my book, SO gave the right answer, because it explained both the most efficient way to do it and why the documentation was misleading.
sees Dharman join, hopes I haven't been misrepresenting PHP APIs too badly
 
Why do you need to know the row count?
 
@Dharman If it's a search, maybe to tell the user "we found x records that matched your search" or something like that.
 
10:59 AM
@Braiam The behavior for MySQL is unclear from that page. It calls out specific drivers that don't do it properly, but not ones that do.
 
@RyanM Well, the number of RMBD is usually unknown, so listing all of their behavior in the manual is silly,
 
Yeah, that's more or less it. In this case it was something that could have been done with PHP-side counting, but I was doing a straight port to get things working before trying to restructure it.
 
and time consuming.
 
That function is pretty useless. If you want to know count for sure then fetch all the rows into array and count the array
 
@Dharman It can be useful for delete/insert/update. ;)
 
11:01 AM
@Braiam And thus we're back to SO being more suitable again, because it's totally reasonable to have a "how to get the row count for a SELECT query in MySQL with PDO" question here
 
But more of a "we error out if we did nothing" kind of scenario.
@RyanM Which the documentation examples tells you "do a count()"
Again, two queries instead of one.
 
Right, and that documentation gives bad advice for MySQL specifically
...and arguably bad advice generally, due to the race condition you described.
 
If I'm going to use PDO (which is a opinionated way to speak with DBs from php) and I don't agree with the way they suggest, I wouldn't be using it.
 
I'll just leave it here github.com/php/doc-en/pull/56
 
I can assure you the Android documentation gives bad advice in at least one situation.
@Dharman :D
 
11:05 AM
@Dharman Hey, look at that :D
 
@Scratte @RyanM Can I ask a genuine "How to?" question - this looks like a clear "How to" question - it's got answers which suggests that people are clear what is meant, yet it's been very poorly received. Is there really any difference with the last? Is it just that the community has changed?
 
Unfortunately my PR was not merged yet
 
@Dharman that example specify how to get the row count from the db, not how to get the rowcount of a specific select non-count() query, correct?
 
Yes
But that is the most common question. How do I count rows in the database
 
I prefer that the example became truly portable by using an object and counting that object, rather than depend on query()
 
11:08 AM
@DavidBuck I think of it this way: Down Voting and Close Voting as distinct. A Question can be perfectly OK in regards to staying open while being poorly researched. The poor research is a reason to downvoting a post, but it's not a reason to close it. Also, some posts are not on-topic, but are really good and closed while also geting upvotes.
 
If you want to count rows in returned array use count in PHP
 
Yeah, I would point that out at the top of the documentation: if you want to know how many rows were returned from your select statement, count the returned array instead.
 
@DavidBuck I remember a post recently that was closed for being opinion based while also getting 3 upvotes. It was even posted in here.
 
@DavidBuck My impression of that (from the minute or so I spent reading the docs) is that the bot's "prefix" isn't a specific concept in that framework. It's unclear why a space in the prefix would even matter, so figuring out the problem is likely to depend on how the OP has implemented their prefix detection. On the other hand, arguably one could answer it by simply showing the correct way to detect prefixes, or by suggesting a question that does so as a duplicate (probably a better option).
 
(I'm not a discord.js SMB (Subject Matter Beginner), so I can't evaluate the post)
 
11:12 AM
Yeah, looks like to the extent that's a thing it's just string prefixes discordjs.guide/creating-your-bot/…
I bet they forgot to put a space at the end
 
11:27 AM
Any Room Owners about?
 
@Dharman wait a minute, that example is literally asking the rmdb to count rows, would that actually be useful?
I see why would newcomers would be mislead, since the example isn't an alternative to rowcount
(I expect developers to know how to count against their rdbs)
 
11:45 AM
Heh.. since I applied the CSS on syntax highlighting, I find code on Stack to be so pretty and rainbow'y :D
 
@Braiam You expect wrong. There are so many people who just execute query, fetch all results and use rowCount to get the count of matching rows then discard the results. The problem with the current example is that it doesn't show anything useful. Why execute a separate query? What about race conditions?
My proposal was to keep the example as what it was meant to be. To show how to get the count of matching rows in the database without rowCount
Imagine there is no such function called rowCount(). What do you actually miss? Nothing.
At least for SELECT
@Braiam See this example in mysqli: stackoverflow.com/q/64075927/1839439
People are getting confused between SQL COUNT() and the function in PHP called rowCount() or num_rows
The purpose is to show that they are actually different
 
@Dharman afaik, rowcount is only useful on delete/update/insert operations: they only return the number of affected rows.
 
exactly
 
But if you wanted both the result of the query and a count then a example that does that would be more useful for users
 
We could add another one to the docs but I don't think that is a common scenario
 
11:58 AM
A user of this room would tell me otherwise. :)
 
@RyanM Did you really need to know the count of fetched rows in the statement? What was your real use case for it?
 
I used to work on a system that did the double SQL all the time. One for the total count and one for the records. Only 10 records were ever used, and depending on what page users were on, the rows displayed differed. The selects were against an Oracle database.
 
Just use Window Function
 
It was 20 years ago :)
 
Duplicate of what?
 
12:09 PM
@Dharman I already voted for the dupe
 
??
 
I'm dumb
wait
 
Dumb passer by passing by? :D
@PasserBy I think ti would be more useful if you voted to close :)
 
I'm just sad that the question isn't closed and am looking for any dupe that is guaranteed to exist
 
That is still not clearer
 
12:11 PM
Why did you post that link @PasserBy? And one-box it (is that what it is called?)?
 
@Braiam I voted the wrong dupe and retracted :(
@DontKnowMuchButGettingBetter I am trying to find a dupe
And it got eh... expanded? Sorry for the mess.
 
@PasserBy I think you've not mentioned the post that you want to close as a duplicate of another target. Both the posts you've linked to also seem to have not been active within the last 6 months, so none of them can be requested for closure here.
@PasserBy You can put any text in front of the link, like . <link>, or use the markdown []() to avoid the one-boxing.
 
12:46 PM
 
@rene Please bin this request of mine. It seems to have been edited to be OK now. cc @RyanM
 
@RyanM We'll have to disagree on this one. There are many possible answers to that question (as indeed there are actual answers), all of which require clarification from OP to know if they are on the right path, none of which was ever forthcoming (presumably OP solved the problem themselves since they never returned to SO after posting the question). I don't think it hurts to leave the question closed to protect it from NATOs. cc @DavidBuck
 
 
2 hours later…
2:57 PM
@PasserBy Does that mean you'd like the request you posted here to be binned?
 
3:20 PM
@Scratte Yes, it was a huge blunder all along.
 
@PasserBy Ok :) We normally ask a Room Owner to remove it along with a link to the request. I think rene is active here today :) You can see an example here (please don't cc anyone. Mine was specific to that user :)
 
4:03 PM
1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null, by implicit request
 
Looks so, yeah.
MainActivity.java is incomplete though
 
I voted unclear
 
4:31 PM
 
 
2 hours later…
6:58 PM
@double-beep closed as a duplicate??
 
7:11 PM
@desertnaut Nice catch. However it will "Roomba: 34 days"
 
7:29 PM
 
@Makyen How is moderator life? Have you settled in well? It is net time you spend on Stack increased or are you saving time from documenting things?
 
8:27 PM
@AdrianMole Eh? Links promote dev resources for BB, I say it's expected to do so.
I have more problems with the marketing bable that is going on.
 
@AdrianMole Looks good to me, what's the concern?
 
Well, to me, it seems like it's redefining the tag - from the device manufacturer to a software development house.
 
Well, I would say they are fixing the tag, since the manufacturer is irrelevant on SO.
 
I am only not happy that they copied the content from the official site
 
@Braiam Well, then that's probabaly spam, then?
 
8:35 PM
Are you aware that 80% of the tag wiki's are like that?
Copying the marketing bable from the resources.
 
Maybe I was a bit hasty? Seems that the editor works for Blackberry. Hmmm...
 
Does it require more than 2K to review tag wikis?
 
@Scratte Yes - 5K.
 
@AdrianMole Funny :) It just tells me I need 2K when I load the review you posted :)
 
@Scratte Ha! You need 2K in order to be told that you need 5K.
 
8:41 PM
lol!.. Awesome user interface :)
 
8:52 PM
@Dharman Seems like your post here was correct but that your vote there wasn't! ;-)
 
I decided to approve it. It looked like they knew what they were doing and I trusted that edit
 
9:04 PM
@Dharman Plagiarism is not permitted in posts, tag wikis, or tag excerpts. When reviewing tag wiki and tag excerpt edits, plagiarism is something which is supposed to be specifically checked for. The edit is to be rejected, if the edit contains substantial plagiarism. Please see: Stopping tag wiki plagiarism, Part II: Taking Action
 
Ok I can agree with that, but I didn't think it was plagiarised. Sure it was copied, but at the same time it had links which means that the content was properly attributed. That meta post says "It's not plagiarism if it's attributed." Also, "The plagiarized part must be substantial such that it qualifies as creative content." This was a summary of all their different SDK. It wasn't copied in its entirety from Wikipedia or some other source. These were the official definitions for these SDKs.
 
@Makyen but it looks like, the edit was done by an representative of the company (member of the Solution Architects team at BlackBerry), how could they have done better?
 
I saw no reason to reject it, at least not based on the fact that the content was copied. Maybe I still don't understand when we consider something to be plagiarised vs. quoted from docs.
 
@Vickel That doesn't matter, at least they are taking care of their tag.
 
@Braiam yes, but got their edit rejected
 
9:11 PM
@Vickel I'm talking about normative behavior.
 
I was told that if I copy part of the documentation and add attribution then it's not necessarily plagiarism
 
The fact that it got rejected has no bearing in my argument.
 
@Dharman Basically, plagiarism is copying without saying "I copied this from [here]". If they say that the work was done by someone else and where they got it, then it's not plagiarism. It might not be permitted under copyright, but we don't really evaluate copyright issues, but we do evaluate plagiarism.
 
That makes sense in academia - prevents submitting the same paper twice - but how is it useful here?
 
Wasn't it obvious that they were copying it from the links? Have I missed something?
 
9:13 PM
@Dharman No. The links were links to additional information. Neither the links, or the text said "I copied this from [here]", or "As it says at [this link]: <quote in quote format>"
 
would editing that in be allowed/sufficient?
 
If it were a normal post I would have just fixed the formatting so that the text is in quote blocks, but maybe wiki tags are different. Let's leave it at that I was wrong to approve it. I will reject more tag wiki edits in future.
 
@Dharman You are permitted to copy parts of the documentation into your posts (assuming that's OK from a copyright POV, but copyright isn't something we really evaluate), as long as you add attribution and indicate that it was copied. There's more detail in How to reference material written by others.
But the fact that you copied it and the attribution both need to be clear. One of the ways to indicate that it was copied is to put it in quotes, or blockquote format.
@JohnDvorak In many cases, yes, but that content appeared to be basically all copied, which is not permitted. The intent is that quoted portions support the author's own content, not be the only content.
 
> All registered users can submit edits for tag wikis. When approving these edits, ensure that:
- All the content is original or attributed properly
- Wiki excerpts are concise and contain an objective description of the tag
That's everything the help center says.
I put more importance in the later rather than the former.
 
@Braiam Paraphrasing what you've just said, it equates to saying "here's something I want you to consider a definitive reference, but I'm going to ignore the first half of it, because I don't like that part."
@Braiam The meta post which you've linked here has basically nothing to do with the issue of referencing and plagiarism, which is what we've been talking about, so it's unclear to me why you've linked it.
 
9:42 PM
@Vickel That hints at the possibility that they may have had permission from the copyright holder to copy the content, but that's not the same as not plagiarizing. Given how corporations work, I'd consider it likely that they did not have permission to copy the work and release it under the CC BY-SA 4.0 license.
However, your question does open the issue of what to do about someone copying their own work. The best practice would be for the author to include a note that says they copied it from their own work. It's debatable as to if we (SO/SE) recognize the concept of self-plagiarism, but it would definitely forestall any issues if the author is clear and explicit that they are copying their own work.
 
I think the comment provided by the "Copied Content" rejection reason is quite informative and useful: This edit copies a significant amount of content from an external source. Generic descriptions such as encyclopedia articles and ad copy do not provide useful guidance; try creating something useful to this community specifically, and be sure to attribute the original author. [Source: Stack Overflow UI (bolding mine)]
 
@Makyen I agree, that's what they should have done in the 1st place
 
@AdrianMole That's why as long as you explain what the tag is about, at least you have that going on. On tag excerpts I'm more stringent since it's the excerpt.
But in any case, it doesn't matter much because people rarely reads them.
 
9:58 PM
I do read excerpts! ... in the incredibly rare case that I actually post something.
 
I should correct my statement: rare people reads excerpts.
 
I read them too and I'm perfectly normal :) I especially read them when I find them oddly attached to a post.
 
10:30 PM
Re our discussion earlier. On Main this is what happens when someone copies from the official docs, we add the attribution: stackoverflow.com/posts/3799223/revisions
 
11:21 PM
Is this malicious? I edited just to add code fences but it looks at least wrong (irrelevant to the Q) but possibly harmful.
 
@AdrianMole I guess if you actually ran it it wouldn't do good things. I've downvoted and vtd'd...
 
@Nick I agree (also gave D+D). I'm not sure what %RANDOM% actually evaluates to, but it doesn't look helpful.
 
@AdrianMole a random number. md is an alias for mkdir, so the script would basically fill the c:, d: and e: drives with randomly named directories. eventually it would crash when it ran out of space...
 
OK! I got the rest of the code.
I'm not sure if an R/A flag would be appropriate there. I also don't know if there is a 'standard' procedure for reporting malicious code posts ... mod flag?
 
I think a mod flag is the most appropriate if you want to escalate beyond simple deletion.
 
11:31 PM
Hehe - we should ask a moderator to test it on their own PC! xD
 
:-)
 
This thing will just create random folders indefinitely
 
@AdrianMole I went with red flag
 
@Braiam I would be very surprised if a mod declines that.
 
Collectively we can simply nuke it, there's no reason for it to be on the site.
 
11:42 PM
fed it to smokey, too, since it's got a spammy link...
 
Hmmm - this issue has been raised several times on Meta (search "malicious code"), or see this link.
... but no sign of any official (staff or moderator) response.
 
As always, you need to check both meta meta.stackexchange.com/a/288966/213575
 
@Braiam Not quite the same though ... that one's about malicious links.
 
aaaand it's gone, probably by hitting 6 red flags
 
... anyway, it's gone! (52 minutes). (4 red flags plus 2 delete votes?)
 
11:46 PM
@AdrianMole that's irrelevant minutae. There's not difference: it's sole purpose is to cause harm.
Link, code, text is content in the post. Treatment is the same, unambiguously malicious content doesn't belong here.
 
@Braiam I 100% agree!
 
There's "malicious" and there's "harmful." "Why does [link] cause iOS devices to crash?" seems like the latter, since if you click that link from an iOS device and it crashes, well...I'm not sure what you expected.
The same link presented in a different context, such as claiming that it's a solution to a problem, could be malicious.
 
@RyanM That's not the purpose of the content, is it? Asking why something cause harm is valid. Posting something with the sole purpose of causing harm is another thing.
This answer is the later.
 
That is exactly the point I intended to convey, though in retrospect it was not entirely clear. We agree :-)
 
I'm a slow typer :)
 
11:58 PM
What chatroom do we moderate users in again? I know we specifically don't do it here.
Also, this having two upvotes is just sad.
 
@10Rep There is no specific room as such to moderate users. But sometimes you can do that (for spammers, etc.) in Charcoal HQ.
 
@AdrianMole Ok, that's what I was looking for. I want to report a spammer.
 

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