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1:37 AM
Folks, is this a right way to talk? Bit hurt by the convo, but yea, I'll keep moving on. Just wanted your feedback on this.
 
@PraveenKumarPurushothaman - d'oh, gone ;/
 
@tink I just deleted it - looks like a lot of people are downvoting it. Not sure what happened to these people. LoL.
 
Fair enough
 
1:54 AM
@PraveenKumarPurushothaman IMHO nothing good ever comes from discussing downvotes in comments; in fact, I think often it’s the opposite — it risks drawing negative attention to the answer or question, and further downvotes
 
@sideshowbarker Yup
Thanks folks, time to sleep for me! See ya soon. 😊
 
’night 🌛
 
3:11 AM
@bad_coder It is also off-site resource (reading material) and opinion request
 
I don’t see any problem with the manually reported answer posted in here by SD.
 
@Vega yes I know, but last time I posted an "opinion based" cv-pls folks gave me a hard time and drawed me into a discussion, so I'm avoiding that cv-reason unless it's unambiguous.
@Vega Like your new avatar btw.
 
@bad_coder Am I the only one that prefers the previous one?
 
@Andreas It seems the reporter has suspicions about a self-promotion
@bad_coder I went with off-site resource request. It will be hardly salvagable as on-topic by editing
@bad_coder Thank you :)
 
@Vega I see no evidence of that. All I see is that 2/2 answers by this user has a link to that website.
 
3:20 AM
@Andreas I tried to make me more anonymous
@Andreas I didn't flag either for the same reasons
 
@Vega Then something’s badly wrong, since I like anonymity.
@Vega Maybe the user should be monitored by SD, to see if it shows up in more of their answers.
 
I expect that from Charcoal team :)
 
That SD report has first been to the Charcoal room before ending up here, or the user was blacklisted along with the report?
 
3:44 AM
Finally achieved the 400 flag mark!!
 
Congrats :-)
 
Congrats as well. :)
 
@TheMaster There's no reason to ask for feedback anywhere. You'll get the feedback that people want to give you. But yes, if you want to be annoying and make a big deal of the fact that your post has been downvoted, then you'll need to create a Meta discussion using the tag.
 
@RyanM @Andreas Thanks.
 
@TheMaster I have a policy of downvoting any post where someone has left a comment complaining about downvotes. I encourage everyone else to follow this policy as well. I feel like we've covered this adequately: leaving comments asking for feedback is noise at best and inappropriate at worst, so don't do it.
There's no reason to ask for more feedback about your Meta question. You've gotten plenty of feedback. And votes are feedback. Stop using the word "feedback" to mean "things I want to hear".
Also... downvoting without comments is exactly what we want everyone to do all the time, so please stop complaining about that, too.
 
3:51 AM
@CodyGray And flagging/deleting the comment, right?
 
@RyanM Seriously? Read the "Complete" section in the Help Center. This type of rules-lawyering is ridiculous. "In the question itself" doesn't mean "as a link".
 
@CodyGray What? Inappropriate to ask why one’s question is considered bad? If the post creator does this, it’s obvious they don’t understand what everybody else does.
 
@10Rep Yes, that's also good.
@Andreas Yes. There's no one to ask. Don't leave noisy and useless comments.
I'm way past tired of discussing this, BTW.
So if you want to ask clarification questions, that's OK.
 
But I am not interested in relitigating this.
 
3:54 AM
Ok. Then I disagree. Such comments are not noisy. No more discussion.
 
They absolutely are, per site policy.
If you continue to leave such comments after being asked not to, then don't be surprised when your account is suspended for violating our comment policy.
 
@Andreas I hate seeing comments like that now, mainly because that comment is just going to, well, sit there forever.
 
Were you not done discussing?
 
Stack Overflow does not guarantee you any form of feedback. If you are unhappy with that, please apply for a refund. We are happy refunding 100% of the price you paid for the help you were given here.
 
@10Rep I answer such comments. Never had any bad results. Usually helped the poster. They became a better contributor to the site.
 
3:56 AM
@Andreas Please stop answering these comments. Speculation about why other people downvoted is even worse.
 
@CodyGray Ok.
 
If you want to provide feedback of your own volition, then that's fine.
 
@CodyGray I’m just listing what’s wrong with their question.
 
@Andreas You can't know why someone downvoted.
 
Then flag the original useless comment. You would have left your feedback as a comment anyway.
 
3:57 AM
Plus, why wouldn't you flag these comments? Your flag count increases :p
 
Oh, come on. I’m listing the bad points about their question/answer. It’s how I interpret their post, not a speculation of how others do it.
 
OK. That's fine. We weren't really talking about that, @Andreas.
Sorry, I am trying to go through the transcript here and deal with the multiple pings for me... So I don't really want every single one of the replies to turn into a discussion of their own, or I'll never get finished.
 
I can have the comments taken down later. Same with «thanks» comments. I don’t flag them if they’re less than 24-48 hours old, and no feedback was given to them (upvote/comment), but save them on my to-do-list.
@CodyGray Hence the «no more discussion» sentence. ;)
 
@MrUpsidown I think it's reasonable to downvote such questions. You dumped a bunch of code and expected someone else to do your debugging work for you. Your response to me seems like equivocation: you didn't expect it to get upvotes, yet you expected it not to get downvotes? How did you expect people to vote on it? You thought everyone should just go "meh"? Well, some people probably did. But obviously not everyone.
@MrUpsidown You're mixing a lot of different things together here... Serially downvoting another user's posts is an abuse of the one rule that we have for voting: don't target a specific user.
As far as debugging questions, including an MCVE is the minimum requirement for debugging questions. If you're going to ask us to debug your code for you, the bare minimum that we require is that you include an MCVE. The fact that you met the minimum requirement does not mean that you've asked a "good" question. "Debug my code" questions are rarely good. I rarely see any that are worth an upvote.
@MrUpsidown I really hate these kinds of overreactions. But I'm getting to the point where I don't care anymore. If you want to pick up your toys and go home because someone told you not to target another user with your votes, then be my guest. I'm not going to chase after you.
I'm starting to become concerned that this room is somehow promoting the idea that all questions need to have an MCVE and/or that debugging questions are the only questions that are on-topic for Stack Overflow. That is not only wrong, it's horribly wrong, dangerously wrong. So I step in and correct this misconception as often as I can.
Moderators also step in when, as I mentioned, a user has broken the only rule we have governing voting. Regardless of your intentions, when you go through and downvote a large number of answers by another user, then there is something badly wrong. We ask that you refrain from doing that because it loses focus on the content in favor of focus on the user. This was all explained in the moderator message.
None of this means that we don't care about maintaining the quality of the site.
I do hope you realize how utterly ridiculous it is to tout out that straw man when talking to me...
 
@CodyGray I feel questions that are homework questions and/or they have expected output. I don't flag questions based on the length.
 
4:06 AM
@10Rep I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean. Debugging questions need to have an MCVE. There's no such thing as a "homework question". We don't care if it's homework or not because knowing would require reading the asker's mind. All that matters is how the question was asked here, not what motivated it. There are plenty of good, on-topic questions that don't have MCVEs or even any source code. If it's not a "write code for me" question, then there doesn't need to be "expected output".
 
@CodyGray I mean to say those types of questions absolutely require MCVE's.
 
@CodyGray Not sure if this is correct. I sometimes come across such comments asking for code on questions where that’s completely irrelevant. I’ve never seen those users in here, but I or other regulars in here usually point out to them that an MCVE is not required for the question.
 
@tripleee Chromium-- would be vanadium, right? How'd you get all the way down to iridium? Anyway, I have seen a couple of people mention that TamperMonkey doesn't reliably update scripts for them, but I haven't seen (and cannot reproduce myself) any issues with scripts working. I still use TamperMonkey on Chrome on two of my computers, and it's been working fine with no hiccups.
A likely explanation is that you're being rate-limited by the API. This happened to me. You should see errors in the console to this end. Or, you can debug yourself by just trying to hit an SE API endpoint.
 
@CodyGray ditto for me mostly, it just managed to lose about half of my scripts around a week ago but reinstalling the ones which had stopped working seems to be the fix
@CodyGray the fact that e.g. FIRE is working probably refutes this hypothesis
 
@Scratte Not sure if you're just joking, but... Only choose "Requires Editing" when the question can be edited by a regular community member (not the OP) and such an edit would fix all problems with the post. If the post needs editing to fix code formatting and also needs more information to be added, then it doesn't require editing. It needs to be closed. And thus, Unsalvageable.
@DavidW Handled.
 
4:16 AM
@CodyGray I think maybe they just wanted a "sexy" metal but who knows
 
Vanadium isn't sexy?
 
@Andreas Well... I do see questionable cv-plses popping in here, for «needs details or clarity», or «no MCVE», «needs debugging details», «no MRE» or an equivalent.
 
Ummm... back on topic. Not about programming. stackoverflow.com/questions/63388031/…
 
@10Rep Congrats, and thanks! What you didn't mention, that I think is even more impressive, is that you have a >98% accuracy rate.
 
4:27 AM
@CodyGray I didn't know that was good, but now I'm happy. Thanks for letting me know!
 
@CodyGray My question cv-plsed has been reopened by users repeatedly reopening off-topic questions.
 
@10Rep Well, yeah, I'd say so. Anything greater than 95% is pretty good. Think of a line of best-fit.
@Andreas What?
 
@CodyGray Eh; user moderation is off-topic in here, but I just wanted to give you some information. A moderator flag is probably better. You moved a completed cv-pls of mine.
 
@CodyGray Wait, how did you find out how many flags I got declined? Can only mods see that?
 
@Andreas I'm going to go with "yes" as the answer to that. Yes, talking about users is off-topic here. Yes, moderator flags are better for that. Yes, I moved completed cv-pls requests to another room, as is common practice.
@10Rep Mods can see it for everyone; you can see it for your own flag history.
 
4:37 AM
Yeah, that's what I figured.
 
@CodyGray Didn’t question the moving of completed/expired requests. ;)
 
@Andreas so where is the reopened off-topic question? or are there several?
 
@CodyGray Yes the feedback is "there is something wrong". But I think there's nothing wrong. Why is it wrong to ask for clarification? Nobody owes me anything. If they are willing to give me feedback by downvoting: and the feedback is different from what I think(negative feedback), Is it wrong to investigate further? I don't see why you're so close minded about this issue.
 
@tripleee In a cv-pls‘s link in the graveyard. Shall we head over to TMoSH if you want more information?
 
@Andreas why? sounds like a reasonable topic for this room (what's TMoSH anyway?)
 
4:49 AM
@tripleee No, it’s user moderation, not content moderation. The Ministry of Silly Hats.
 
@TheMaster If someone wants to give you feedback, they can do so. There's nothing stopping them. There's literally no point in leaving comments asking. Either someone that was already going to provide feedback sees it, and they wasted their time, so the comment is noise; ...
... or, someone that was going to provide feedback sees it, and was annoyed by your perceived arrogance, so the comment was harmful to your ultimate end; ...
... or, someone that was not going to provide feedback sees it, and ignores it, so the comment was noise and thus both of your time was wasted.
@Andreas I'm not really sure what you're talking about. I'm pretty sure that the script does not move questions that were re-opened, but maybe it does, since you can't re-request those anyway, so I'm not really sure what we're talking about here.
 
@Andreas okay, I'm there
 
@CodyGray It moves expired requests, so if it didn’t move it because it was reopened, it moved it because it was 15 hours old.
 
@CodyGray You speak as if people only do what they already predetermined in their mind and won't do anything else. And the comment is useless or harmful by default. But no one else takes this approach other than you. Like my question, I got a response immediately after asking. People are inherently not bad and they're usually here to help. Downvoting is a form of help. Some might go a extra mile to comment. A prior inducement is NOT arrogant. It's humble.
 
@TheMaster On Stack Overflow, we consider noise to be harmful. Comments have to fight hard for their justification to live. Your request for feedback, regardless of how earnest, has lost that fight before it ever started.
While you might not have intended your request for feedback to be arrogant, please be aware that it does come across that way. It sounds as if you're taken aback by the downvotes and refuse to accept them as legitimate. As do most complaints that we get about votes couched in the friendlier-looking language of "feedback".
 
4:59 AM
«You assholes! Why did you downvote my comment?!» is rude. «Why was this good question downvoted?» is arrogant. «I don’t understand what’s wrong with my question. Could somebody explain what’s wrong with it?» is not arrogant or rude.
 
@Andreas The Archiver considers cv-pls and reopen-pls requests "expired" after 3 days, and del-pls and undel-pls after 7 days. The Archiver script only looks at the current state of the post at the time that the archiving is requested/checked. It does not look at the history of the post.
 
@Makyen Oh. Maybe Rene moved it. The transcript doesn’t look great, especially on mobile, so I might’ve seen something wrong... mhm. Anyway. This is growing into a big issue, it seems...
 
@Andreas I don't consider anything to be a large issue at this time. So far, we're just explaining how things work, which isn't a problem to do.
 
@CodyGray I already asked you. What's the acceptable way to request feedback? Your response is basically "No. You don't ask for it. People only do what they determined to do". I'm saying "people respond to requests". What in your opinion would be more "true" ," from the heart" request for feedback. I cannot agree that There is no provision in SO to look for meta feedback about a question.
 
@TheMaster That's correct; there is no acceptable way.
This is a Q&A site, not a discussion site.
Meta commentary about posts doesn't belong here.
I told you that it is assumed people who post on here are interested in feedback. But there is no requirement to provide feedback, and you have no way of explicitly requesting it. It's neither opt-in nor opt-out.
 
5:05 AM
@CodyGray You're close minded. If put to a vote, you'll surely be in the minority as far as "There is no acceptable way" is concerned.
 
I understand that you believe others may be more likely to leave feedback if you ask for it, but (A) I have lots of evidence that's not true, (B) it doesn't go over well, and (C) that's simply not how the site works.
Fortunately, this is not a democracy.
 
I’m inclined to flag «fortunately» as «inappropriate», but it would likely be declined by the dictatorship, with a punishment? Bad joke.
 
Lots of different burnination requests featured as HOT Meta posts on the main page.
Perhaps the community is feeling a hunger for curation and organizing.
 
Yes, it's been a very long time since we did burninations.
I know there is some desire to get that happening again.
@Andreas There is no punishment for speaking out against the dictatorship.
 
It'll be interesting to see the process unfold.
 
5:12 AM
It's a process that has unfolded many times before, so... not that interesting. :-)
 
@CodyGray I guess these will be my firsts so there's lots of novelty to it for me.
 
@CodyGray Hmmm We seem to have elections and stuff. Are they just hogwash? Even among your peer moderators, nobody would hold this view.
 
Having elections doesn't make something a democracy
 
@Andreas ok that's not a SO tag burnination. Personally I don't appreciate that kind of editorial line, although the country and the people are very interessting.
 
5:16 AM
@bad_coder Huh? Have I missed some burnination jokes?
 
@CodyGray Curious. You keep saying it's site wide policy. Is it in CoC or guidelines? If possible, could you link me to this clause "No feedback about the improvements to the question can/should be requested"
 
stackoverflow.com/help/privileges/comment is very clear about when you should comment. Note that "asking for feedback" is not one of the reasons.
Then there are zillions of Meta questions about noisy comments being unwelcome and inappropriate.
 
@CodyGray Doesn't explicitly deny it though. Does it?
 
yes.
That's meant to be an exhaustive list of when you should comment.
Look, this is the same thing as if someone was leaving the following comment under all of their answers:
> "Thanks for reading my answer! If you have any suggestions about how I should improve the coding style, or if you find any bugs, please let me know. I would love to hear any and all feedback about how this can be improved."
That would be flagged as NLN almost immediately, and there's not a moderator around who wouldn't delete it.
 
@CodyGray Yes. But this neither "inappropriate" or "unwelcome". It only seems inappropriate/unwelcome to you.
 
5:22 AM
@TheMaster You are misreading what I said. I said "noisy comments". It is a noisy comment. That makes it both unwelcome and inappropriate.
You really need to understand that this site is not about users or feedback.
 
@CodyGray under "all"? I agree. But say if there are 15 downvotes with no comments, I think it is ok.
 
You seem to have a fundamentally misguided view of the purpose or operation of Stack Overflow.
Votes should never have any relationship with comments.
The fact that you're admitting that you're commenting because of a situation in the votes means that you are doing it wrong.
 
@CodyGray But it does have a relationship. Votes=> content quality<=comments about content. The "content" links the votes and comments
 
@CodyGray Comments asking why a post qualifies for downvotes, or, why it’s considered LQ, is about content, not users.
 
@TheMaster comments about content often goes the wrong way and cause more harm than good
 
5:27 AM
Um, no
These comments are discussing voting, which instantly makes them inappropriate.
 
@CodyGray It only discusses voting because of the "content quality". Votes are a secondary to discussion. It's about "content"
 
@CodyGray Comments are for quality and usefulness. They’re an indicator of low/high quality. Therefore, when the question author receives this feedback that their question is LQ, or an answerer receives it on an answer they believe is correct, and don’t understand why, the next question they ask themselves is: what’s wrong? Obviously, they don’t know why, and often, they can’t figure it out either.
 
@oguzismail Implications aside, I dont think it is forbidden because of perceived bad prognosis.
 
What the heck is a perceived bad prognosis
 
@oguzismail Sorry. Perceived bad ending. goes the wrong way and cause more harm than good
 
5:32 AM
It's not about content. You're either lying to me, or you're lying to yourself. It's your reaction to your post being downvoted.
You're trying to dress it up all fancy to avoid appearing to break any rules, which suggests you know that it's problematic.
What I'm telling you is that it doesn't matter how you dress it up, how constructively or politely you try to express it. It's still noise. It serves no purpose, and it doesn't belong on this site.
 
@CodyGray The post is downvoted for "content quality". Nothing else. The comment is intended to increase "content quality". It is a reaction and it is not wrong to discuss content.
 
You aren't discussing content.
If you had feedback for yourself, well, you could post it.
But you don't. You want someone to tell you why the post was downvoted.
 
@CodyGray TBH, I'm new to meta and I'm speaking straight from the heart. No dress up. I'm assuming years of bad comments did a number on you and others. I don't have such experience or trauma.
 
@Andreas First word should be «votes», not «comment».
 
It's not bad comments.
It's years of discussion about votes.
Any time you are motivated to leave a comment because of something you saw in the post's left sidebar surrounded by vote arrows, stop. That comment should not be posted.
 
5:36 AM
@CodyGray Like I said they're clearly linked by the content.
 
I don't care if it's, "Ugh, wtf, why was this post downvoted?" or "-1 this post sucks" or "This post seems fine; I don't know why it would be downvoted. +1 to compensate" or "Can someone explain why this would be worth a downvote?" or "Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can improve this post to make it worth an upvote?" or whatever.
None of those comments are about content. If you think they are, you're either fooling yourself or your logic is so convoluted that Rube Goldberg would be proud. Those comments are about votes, plain and simple. They're reactions to votes, and that's not appropriate.
Even if they're not reactions to votes, they're just noise and they serve no purpose. This goes back to the yelling at an empty room analogy that I gave before. It's just... you're hoping that your yell will reverberate long enough that the next visitor to the room will hear it. I think that proves it's noise pollution. :-)
 
@CodyGray If anyone receives negative feedback, they're expected to do some thing about it. I'm of the opinion: "You can ask for improvements" as SO doesn't explicitly deny it.
@CodyGray Votes are about "content quality". You're not even trying to make that connection
 
@TheMaster Your first sentence is not true. Furthermore, votes are not feedback given to the poster.
When we say that you can comment about content quality, we mean that you can actually make constructive suggestions on how to improve the quality of content. Leaving a comment asking for suggestions is not constructive in any way.
Your proposed comment conveys absolutely no information. That makes it a worthless comment.
 
Reaction to votes are perceived difference between what you think and what the community thinks. A reaction to "content quality" feedback to genuinely improve the question is perfectly valid.
 
None of that matters.
Stop reacting to votes.
And if you're going to react, do it off-site, like by screaming into a pillow.
It doesn't belong here.
We got rid of "reactions".
 
5:44 AM
@CodyGray Yes. It does. It says I'm not aware of what's wrong with my content. Can I improve it to better the quality of site as well as to get a answer. I've read all faqs and I don't think my post is unclear at all. suggestions to improve it are welcome(As the general trend is "downvote and move on")
 
What you seem to be missing is that it simply doesn't matter whether you're aware of what's wrong with your content or not.
Nobody cares.
Additionally, it is assumed that everyone who clicks the Submit button thinks that their post is of sufficiently high quality to be posted here.
And... now we're coming around to the real problem.
You are single-handedly trying to reverse site policy of "downvote and move on" by leaving comments underneath your own posts.
 
@CodyGray Isn't the point to make SO a good quality content site? If so, OP should be able to ask comments about "content quality" for others.
 
This is no different than the people who leave comments saying, "If there's anything wrong with this answer, please don't downvote! Just leave a comment instead."
That's inappropriate.
For one thing, because it's yet another meta-comment that discusses the voting system.
Second, because it's trying to single-handedly change site policy only for your posts.
@TheMaster No! No no no! That does not follow!
 
@CodyGray That would be a pre emptive strike. I'm talking about post-perceived "content quality" issues, You ask feedback about "content quality" to improve your question for the sake of yourselves and the community
 
Because the goal is for Stack Overflow to be a site hosting quality content, we assume that everyone who posts here is interested in feedback on how to improve their posts. Even if they're not (e.g., they've demonstrated by an abusive rant that they're not interested, or even if the very account that posted the answer has been destroyed), we still leave comments with suggestions on how to improve the post.
@TheMaster I do not understand this.
I am very annoyed that you are trying to pretend that you are somehow doing this out of selfless concern for the site or others, though.
I don't know if you're fooling yourself, or trying to fool me, but I'm not buying it.
This is you, like zillions of others before you, not understanding why your post was downvoted and demanding an explanation for it.
That doesn't help to make the site any better for anyone.
 
5:51 AM
@TheMaster I neither see much problem in asking what’s wrong with a post on Main, after it receives downvotes, but @CodyGray is correct in that nobody should be required to comment in order to downvote, and you cannot expect an answer to your request. Now, I looked closer at the start of this discussion, and ended up on Meta. Votes on Meta are usually about opinions and agreeance, not necessarily quality.
Am I allowed to give an example of a comment asking why their answer was downvoted, on Meta?
 
@CodyGray Sorry that you're annoyed. But your thoughts make no sense whatsoever. What exactly do I gain by doing this? I asked about 5 questions in total. I answered lot of questions and do have a genuine interest in helping/ answering and to make the question/post look good for others.
You're disrupting a typical workflow. Action=>reaction(votes)=>reaction to reaction(improve "content quality"). By disrupting the chain: "Do not leave comments"/"Do not ask comments", You're making the site a bad one, not good. I agree with downvoting and quality control. I don't agree with disrupting a normal workflow chain
 
There was an answer to (I think) the «thanks» feature test, in which somebody came up with a different idea. They received a lot of downvotes, including me. They genuinely didn’t understand why their proposal would be bad for the site, and asked why. I gave 5-6 comments outlining every issue I saw. Would’ve been useful to everybody coming across that post, but the answer was deleted. Would it have been useful on Main? To the OP, yes. If the post is not fixed on Main? Well; delete it.
 
@Andreas This one?
@TheMaster That's not the workflow that was envisioned for the site, and it's not the one we want to promote.
 
@CodyGray No, but you’re welcome to dig up the one I’m talking about, even put it on Imgur. I can’t see it anymore. Not even a trace in my activity log.
 
I don't really care that much.
 
5:58 AM
@CodyGray Me neither.
 
I'd rather break people's workflows when they result in reacting to downvotes and leaving comments that I'm just going to have to spend time cleaning up.
 
@CodyGray Who is selfish now? If you don't want to spend time and if this is too much work,SO should add more workforce/mods not change the typical workflow chain.
 
@TheMaster This is why I tried to stop discussing it earlier, and shifted to the tone of, "Please stop doing this." You clearly aren't going to be convinced, no matter how much we discuss this, so I'm just wasting my time. I don't like wasting my time, nor wasting yours. So let's go back to: do not leave comments like the ones we've been discussing, or any such comments that arise out of your reaction to votes.
@TheMaster No, it's not about needing more mods. We shouldn't be adding more mods in order to clean up after a mess that you are deliberately creating. You should just stop creating the mess, like you've been told.
 
@CodyGray How is asking for extra feedback -a single comment -a mess? Like I said, It should be more mods
 
6:04 AM
@TheMaster You need your own mod assigned to you to go around cleaning up the comments that you insist on posting, even after you've been asked to stop?
 
@CodyGray If the end result is improved quality of the questions, why bother?
 
The end result is never improved quality of questions.
You're just indignant about having been downvoted.
 
@TheMaster whether or not it's "a mess," Cody has repeatedly and eloquently explained why it creates problems. Just don't
 
@tripleee Seek alternative solutions. Outright banning "Can this question be improved" is poor handling of the feedback mechanism in place.
@CodyGray But you are never called for questions that genuinely improve. You as a moderator are only called , when bad things happen and flagged
 
Does the system catch users repeatedly upvoting and answering questions not long after closed?
 
6:09 AM
@CodyGray I wasn't joking. The Question looks perfectly on topic, except for the very very long html line, that's unreadable. And incidentally, it's still a very long line, and no Answers on the post :) However, I feel that even if I use the button the right way, I'd probably still get a suspension.
 
@CodyGray If you mean "you" personally, No. I'm not. Improving my question is just a challenge in social skills. For me, I think I'm doing ok with that post
 
@TheMaster You have three solutions available to you here: (1) Use your own brain and/or research skills in order to figure out what can possibly be improved about your post. (2) Wait for someone else to come along who is interested in providing detailed, specific feedback. (3) Move on.
I've said this before, but perhaps it was not clear. Voting is not intended to provide feedback to the original poster. Voting only provides feedback to future viewers. You are certainly welcome to take votes into account when considering how to improve your own content, but you are not expected to do so. There is often, as you have said, not enough information available from votes alone to create actionable feedback.
@Andreas Yes: by users noticing this and raising moderator flags. You are part of the system, whether you want to be or not. :-)
 
@CodyGray You have a progressive, opera/black metal version? :) No robo-automation, then. mhm.
 
@Andreas It's Lonely Island. I'm not going to mess with perfection. Gratuitious use of Auto-Tune is part of the charm.
 
Rap? Perfection?! Auto-tune??!!!! Oh, no.
 
6:20 AM
@Andreas I mean, it's satire...
 
@CodyGray I can use comments to "ask for clarification" on "content quality". The op is also a member of the site. The feedback provided on "content quality" doesn't exclude them
 
Please stop trying to bend the rules to fit what you want to do.
I cannot possibly make this any more clear, so at this point, you are bordering on trolling.
2
 
@CodyGray Ah, yes.
 
@CodyGray I could say the same to you.
 
When should I comment? "Request clarification from the author;"
 
6:27 AM
@JeanneDark That is my favorite privilege :) It's the only one that I ever really wanted.
 
I don't really think that moderators attempting to explain or answer questions about policy is trolling. But if you feel that what I'm saying is not helpful or worse, then I will stop.
@Scratte The editing and close-vote privileges are the best ones you can get. It's hard to decide which is better.
 
@CodyGray I will not use the first. And I really like having 100 flags instead of just 50 close votes :)
 
I added the select reply message afterwards. The reply was to "Trying to bend the rules" to reduce your workload
@CodyGray Your stance is clear as ever. In fact you're replying the same thing in different words. But the reasoning is murky at best: 1. Reduce workload - that's ok 2. End result bad: Subjective as you're a mod and mostly seen far worse things than the general population. 3. Comments intention: whining, arrogant: none of those tones can be deciphered from 1 comment.
 
@TheMaster Can we? > Discussion of community behavior or site policies; please use meta instead.
This will give you the entire community opinion
 
I flagged this python Question as unclear, but they have since added a sentence about what the algorithm is suppose to do. Is it enough?
 
6:40 AM
I believe it is still lacking focus
 
@Vega I read the hackerearth explanation, but I don't think I'd understand what "minimum absolute difference and global maximum of all the subarrays having m elements" would mean if I hadn't. But of course, it's still a little lacking of focus too :)
 
@Scratte The word global is unnecessary (they probably used to empathise), otherwise I do understand what they mean by 'minimum absolute difference'
 
@Vega Ahh.. but it is a global :D It turns out to the maximum of all the minimum distances of the subarrays.
 
Not sure if a question like Do Google products support webhooks? is on-topic or off-topic as customer support.
 
@JeanneDark seems on-topic but should be edit to "How can I use a webhook"
 
6:53 AM
Thanks!
 
waffles
 
7:50 AM
@Adriaan I wanted to keep an eye on them because of a recent red-flag post but it seems to have been an isolated incident
 
8:29 AM
@JeanneDark now edited to include a link to an image of code
 
I reckon it would be unkind to just answer "Yes, someone can."
 
Blatant spam still open after 10 minutes with 10 downvotes. What's up? Is Community User on strike?
 
@Steve I took care of it.
 
8:45 AM
@JeanneDark thanks
 
9:00 AM
@CodyGray I think you may have misinterpreted what I meant...I'm not trying to claim that the rules allow links to code. They of course do not, and I've voted to close many questions for only having code in links. My claim is that it isn't obvious to new users that this is forbidden, and that it could be clearer. Often they'll say they tried to include it in the question but it didn't fit (with Android code, this is an annoyingly plausible claim, even with a relatively minimized version).
Reading the rules like a lawyer would get you to the conclusion that it needs to be in the question, but I don't think we're ever going to most people to read rules like a lawyer. So it can be helpful to call out why I'm closing the question for lack of MCVE.
I should also note, given the context of the conversation, that I'm not defending "why the downvotes?" comments, which I find, I think, almost as annoying as you do, especially as an edit to the question. But I don't mind a polite comment asking for feedback on improvements to the question. Of all the noise I see in comments sections ("anyone can help?" is particularly vexing), these are far enough down the annoyingness scale that it doesn't bother me.
The questions these end up on are usually Roomba-bound if not fixed, so there's generally little need to clean them up unless the question is fixed enough to reopen. I also delete my explanation comments if I notice the question no longer requires them.
 
@RyanM The section "Help others reproduce the problem" in How do I ask a good question? seems pretty clear and detailed to me.
 
@JeanneDark Part of my gripe is that the "Needs Debugging Details" close notice links to two pages, and neither of them are How do I ask a good question? or How to create a Minimal, Reproducible Example
 
I think it's not unreasonable to expect new users to get familiar to a new site first and have a look at pages about how to ask question and what is / is not on-topic etc.
 
@JeanneDark In principle, I agree with you. Practically, it doesn't happen. It might be related to the fact that the Tour pretty much encourages you to jump right in and ask a question, painting the help center as something you might look at later for more in-depth information once you get a feel for things.
4
(Most of my gripes can be summed up as "The Stack Overflow platform is terrible at user education")
 
9:16 AM
It's not the Tour's fault. Many users don't take it and often even the ones who seemingly did (having the Informed badge) just scrolled down.
 
It's not the entire problem (people not taking the tour is another problem), but it sure doesn't suggest "so hey you should probably go read these pages before asking a question."
I've written more about how I wish SE would approach the problem in my answer to Downvotes research: why do we need that?
 
Nobody read the Terms or Service nor the rules nor the manuals for their new toys. I'd even say that lots of disclaimers even rely of the fact that nobody read them. So knowing that's what humans do and then blame them for it is a bit.. counterproductive. The entire site is one big "Please!!! Ask your Question! It's easy! Anyone can do it!" and then "Smack! You didn't do it right, and you didn't read the 200 pages and meta posts about how to do it right!".
 
@Scratte this, basically. A friend was recently shocked that I read the manuals for any of my stuff :-p
Stack Overflow is also rare among websites in the help center actually being a useful resource to use before you have a problem using the site.
 
@RyanM It is, but I still think a warning should come with the Tour and with the Question asking page. Something along "Please note that we expect you to have read the help center before engaging on this site. We will remove your post and close your Question, if you don't do it right." in bigger letters :)
Oops :)
 
Thanks!
 
9:27 AM
@Daniil I edited that question a bit to fix the lack of clarity. Thoughts on if that resolves your issues with it?
by "edited a bit" I suppose I mean "mostly rewrote"
 
@Scratte I also know people who never read manuals and are then surprised and end up furious when they somehow don't get it to work.
 
@JeanneDark I find those people very funny :)
 
@Scratte It's funny until you have to clean up behind them
 
At a previous job, I had a setup doc for development on our project. "You forgot to do step 7. Go back and do step 7." was a very common response from me to people who ran into a certain class of error. :-p
 
@Dharman I just came across one of my long lost cousins.
 
9:33 AM
Does anyone have a good meta post about why how to questions does not need code?
 
@Scratte Could you please include your effort so far to find that meta post in this request?
 
@RyanM :) I'm going through how to questions code
 
@Scratte I think my favorite meta post to link, Shog9's answer to Do we need a close reason for zero-effort questions?, is relevant to this
@Scratte HOW-TO questions are treated in different ways is a good one (amusingly, actually found via the search you linked...)
 
@Scratte No. Maybe make your own one. This can get interesting.
 
@RobertSsupportsMonicaCellio Not posting on meta again.. sorry.
 
9:41 AM
@RyanM The answer does not really get on the point in terms of missing code. Also example provided by OP isn't good. There is actual code in the linked question.
 
@RyanM Yes. I read it.. it's not really what I was looking for.
 
@RobertSsupportsMonicaCellio The answer by Makoto is pretty good though...
 
@RobertSsupportsMonicaCellio Good point.
It's a good answer to a different, but related, question.
 
@Scratte Bad experience?
Yes, the answer is very well, but misses the missing code context.
 
@RobertSsupportsMonicaCellio I'd call it that. Not sure someone else would too though. I didn't like some edits.
 
9:47 AM
@Scratte Ah, yes. I remember. You ended up deleting your answer. Why not just rolling back or reedit?
 
@RobertSsupportsMonicaCellio Two Answers :) I read the comments, that's why :)
 
Is this question not primarily opinion-based? It even received an answer that links to an article first, then comments on an article the question included and finally posts their (short) opinion.
 
@JeanneDark Yes, it is. Already closed.
 
Thank you!
 
we have a question about SO internals: stackoverflow.com/questions/63392240/…
 
10:00 AM
@desertnaut looks like it should be migrated to meta
and then...probably duped.
 
@RyanM It is rather unclear, it would probably be closed over there
 
@RyanM cool, I see you already did the job
 
Well apparently we could've duped it to a non-meta question....
 
@RyanM not really, OP was asking for recent developments (and possibly deep learning), so arguably a question from 2009 would not be relevant
 
10:10 AM
never mind Scratte found one
@desertnaut Yeah, I was half-kidding. Sorry, that wasn't really quite clear from my statement.
 
Yes!.. I think this is it: Is it always a good idea to demand the OP “post some code”? "Always? Hell no!" :D
2
 
@Scratte nice find! Of course there's a Shog9 post. There's always a Shog9 post.
 
I've read it before :) I knew there was a real gem somewhere, but I couldn't find it.. now, I have inner peace and all is well again :)
 
@Braiam the man in the Bahamas is waking up and having his coffee :D
@Braiam which raises the question: Is there a relationship between:
Bahamas and Pajamas??
 
10:27 AM
@bad_coder Considering that the term comes from India, and that the English language borrowed it after the 1800 I doubt it.
 
@AndrasDeak an issue of the upmost importance ^^ regarding your future mission!! Your etymological expertise is required, once again, to clarify such obscure and far fetched relations.
 
I can confirm that neither are insects. Oh wait, sorry, you said etymology.
 
@bad_coder Seems there is no relation according to wikipedia
 
"History and Etymology for pajamas: plural of pajama" Thanks Merriam-Webster I knew I could count on you
 
@bad_coder Fun fact: I don't drink coffee.
 
10:37 AM
@Braiam You are the image of sobriety, an example to follow!!
 
@Braiam I think that makes two of us. Wonder whether the world has a third weirdo like us.
The world of programmers and the like, I mean.
 
Gah! User rage-deleted their account, because they weren't allowed to add signatures. What a pointless farrago.
 
@Yunnosch maybe not...Although I've heared they don't drink much coffee in some parts of the world.
 
I come from (nearby, or in the perception of my colleagues exactly from) one of those exotic places.
 
@bad_coder Nah, is just that I very rarely wake up being groggy, so I found no need to stimulate myself with caffeine.
@halfer It was its favorite signature, I would do the same :D
 
10:41 AM
{eek}
 
@Yunnosch Von wo sind Sie?
 
@Vega [From where are you?] ipsissima verba
 
@Vega reopen-pls edited (now in English): translate.google.com/… It's a site that keeps giving and giving :D
 
@bad_coder Bulls-eye. From Germany. For those who accept that as something large, from the western part of the not exactly northern Germany. My colleagues percevie me a Friese..... sigh. And accuse me of speaking pure Hochdeutsch - the fools.
 
10:47 AM
@Yunnosch Hochdeutsch means low german, right?
 
@Braiam "Hochdeutsch" means german without any speaking dialect.
 
Ohhh, so not high german :D
 
@bad_coder Gallia :)
 
@RobertSsupportsMonicaCellio But isn't that preferred? I mean I would assume no dialect means perfect.
 
@Yunnosch "Nordlicht" or "Friesenjung" is common too. :D
 
10:50 AM
I chose not attempting to translate, because of not knowing the correct English terms. Yes, what my colleagues mean (and I understand to be Hochdeutsch) is no dialect, no special pronounciation, no "melody" in speaking. Mostly like the speakers of the TV news.
And it is only my colleagues thinking that, I know my little language habits. E.g. I am not convinced that there is such a thing as an "r" in the middle of a word.
 
@Yunnosch West?! From Frisia, but moved...NRW? Würtenberg?
 
@Scratte It is the better but from regionals it is sometimes funnily deprecated like the way: What you speak clear? You are a nerd.
 
@Vega I honestly would never have guessed..!! Although I had wondered.
 
Northwestern W. Whoever locked us into one Bundesland with thouse weird Northrine people deserves to suffer. ;-) Those are strange, those Süddeutsche.... ;-)
 
@bad_coder I succeeded to hide my French accent all this time?
 
11:02 AM
@Vega You did. I thought non-English, non-German, something told me: not-Scandinavian, I thought not-Italian...I guessed not-Spanish...There was something not-Dutch, So I was remitted in probabilities to the East, but something in your conduct gave a certain subtlety that was...
 
11:12 AM
 
@bad_coder did you also do a non-Antarctic? :)
 
@Vega Hehe, you have the odd space before tall punctuation though at times ;)
 
11:46 AM
@Adriaan Toasted ! ;)
 
@Adriaan Jean-Fançois does the same and then Cody edits his posts :P (But I hadn't noticed the space detail in Vega's writing.)
@Vega So in the East, I thought non-Czech, not Servo-Croatian (but I considered Albania a possiblity), not Polish, not Romanian, not Bulgarian, not Hungarian, (Türkish could have been possible but complex), I did think Ukranian, and Moldavia, Greece was not my guess. Nothing hinted at the Baltic countries. So from your English I did think France (and tried to dissuade myself from thinking that), and those were the possibilites as I left them.
 
There's this test that does a good job guessing your native language, I didn't know it was so obvious that my first language is Turkish
2
 
Moldova and Romania are pretty close in languages though, as are all slavic languages
 
@Vega Romanian is a latin language, thanks to emperor Trajan
 
@Vega @Adriaan it is a latin one indeed
 
11:56 AM
@Vega Issue being subtle cultural queues in choices, logic, and action that go beyond individual personality.
 
@oguzismail Our top three guesses for your native (first) language: 1. English 2. Norwegian 3. Swedish
 
@bad_coder Hmm.. I wouldn't think of being psychoanalysed when I click on that link for SOCVR. Well, sorry for making you fail ;)
 
@oguzismail Hah! Beat it. 1) Norwegian, 2) English, 3) Dutch. Although their guesses of my accent are rubbish; only US ones. I don't like the pronunciation of (most) US dialects
 
@Adriaan by many accounts Moldovan is a dialect of Romanian
 

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