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12:01 AM
How is the use of a simple word rude? It’s the context that matters. If I mention the word «negro», or any other word that is considered taboo in whatever culture, do you consider that an undeniably rude action? Not too long ago, there was a Norwegian/Danish/Swedish radio show that discussed racism, and the use of that word. In Sweden, they cut the sound every time that word was mentioned, so the conversation no longer made any sense to Swedish listeners.
This conversation was in no way offending to anybody. It’s just that the word was blacklisted. It’s not the text that matters, it’s the context.
- and, yes, allow me to say that systemic use of a word with a history of being used in a condescending way, is not ok.
 
@Scratte you see that does not make sense to me, we can leave the latter part to the moderation by ROs and the mods. But the first part is not sitting well with me, I have never seen expletives be used with newbies, I have only ever seen it used amongst the regulars, where everyone has a common understanding and the conversations are casual as oppose to formal
 
@mega6382 That is fine. But those conversations are public. So while it may seem to be amongst regulars, the conversations are public. I consider this conversation to be casual, but it doesn't violate any rules and it will likely not offend anyone that isn't regular to the room.
 
I wonder how a simple comment to ban a troll turned in to this long conversation about ethics :P
 
Yes, sorry.. that's just me. I tend to go off on a sidetrack :)
 
@Scratte what does them being public have to do with anything? can swear words not be used in public?
 
12:06 AM
Also; one more thing to mention, showing this is all about culture; many of these common profanity words have exact/direct translations between languages, so as to take an example; these words are censored on American TV because they’re considered rude. However, in Norway (using that because I’m Norwegian), these exact same words are just a flavour to the language.
People use them all the time, in family conversations, politics, in the school, etc, etc, while in no way offending anybody, because no rude statement was made.
 
@Andreas Blacklisting words and expletives are not entirely the same things, in my opinion. I hear "blacklisting" is getting blacklisted too :)
 
@Andreas yeah, the same thing is with the c-word in Australia and UK as compared to the US
 
@Scratte Yes; the comment sections below the Norwegian articles mentioning all of this (GitHub, Linux, etc...) were full of people thinking this was a stupid thing to do.
@Scratte Expletives really are just words.
 
@Andreas It is a stupid thing to do, in my opinion. There's nothing wrong with using light to describe something lit, and darkness to describe something not lit.
@Andreas I still think the used of them should be limited to when they are needed only. Not that I will try to change practice here.
 
@Scratte Yes, exactly; creating new words to label as profanity, because... well... somebody found offense in the use of the word, for a different reason than the one the word is used for, and forgot to look at the context.
 
12:15 AM
Though if you choose to go to a room where I am a Room Owner, I will likely ask you to not use them ;)
 
@Scratte you will make a good mod for r/animemes :p
 
@Andreas Heh.. yes. But if you know the actual meaning of the profanities, then the entire sentences they are used in are really very strange :) I would give examples, but.. I'd probably be kicked ;)
 
use pastebin then, I would like to see such examples
 
@mega6382 I'm afraid I do not frequent reddit much. I find it confusing.
 
@Scratte - but they’re not used to be rude. Should I just ban all the words I don’t like? My dialect uses «boss» instead of «søppel», which is probably what Norwegian language learners are taught to be the translation of «trash»/«garbage». Can I ban «søppel»? Can I ban «jævla» (the f-word + «ing» (happy?)), too, then, since it’s primarily the dialects further north that use it as the normal replacement for «veldig» («very»)?
 
12:20 AM
@Scratte you might check that sub out, it is filled with chaos because of ban on a single word
 
@mega6382 I looked at it for while, but I did not get to the actual word.
 
@mega6382 Browser users are blocked from reading it.
 
@Scratte the word was "trap" it is used to define a male that looks very feminine
 
I am calling it a day, since apparently the room has been hijacked and nobody currently cares about requests... :(
 
@Andreas what do you mean?
 
12:22 AM
@desertnaut I don’t have close votes, but I do look at all the request coming in.
 
@desertnaut so sorry about that :(
 
..we can go to the The Ministry of Silly Hats
 
@mega6382 A lock icon, and «This community is available in the app».
 
Thing is, requests are scrolling off the screen...
not enough room
 
@desertnaut There are user scripts for that. And a search option for cv-pls tags :)
 
12:24 AM
@desertnaut ok, we are moving out, you are right we really are cluttering the screen
 
@Scratte the idea is to make it easier, not harder...
 
12:39 AM
I do highly recommend the URRS userscript though...it really does make reviewing requests much easier
 
1:08 AM
FOr the record there are only 4 open cv-pls right now so you didn't miss much.
 
It feels a bit dead in here, now.
 
dbc
Well the SEO tag is reliable source of SOCVRchow...
 
@dbc Answer: robots.txt
Oh... I see that’s a tag on their question.
 
dbc
1:23 AM
Or maybe not, How to prevent search engines from indexing a single page of my website? is on topic so maybe How to tell search engines to temporarily stop indexing a single page and use their saved cache is also on topic. Maybe I should ask to bin my request?
 
Yes, I think you should.
It also just struck me that just using robots.txt won’t work.
 
@dbc Isn't that squarely seo
 
dbc
Borderline. If the question is, "What HTML tag / Response Code / robots.txt rule can I use to do X" then it's at least in the on-topic penumbra.
 
@dbc The question is probably a duplicate. The secondly highest upvoted answer on the one you linked to, is what they need.
 
dbc
@TylerH - can you please bin this request? chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/50159666#50159666
 
1:28 AM
Again, that could also be said about every seo question? "which tags should I use to create a twitter open graph"; "which tags should I use to tell search engines that I changed domains?"; etc.
 
@dbc Will you allow me to make a cv-pls for it being a duplicate, instead?
 
dbc
A lot of seo questions are more along the lines of How bad is react for SEO? how bad is it the generate urls in the backend (in terms of SEO)? or Will google automatically index dynamically rendered react pages? or What is the benefit of creating good URLs (using slug), instead of unique id like youtube?, not asking for code at all, just asking how to best game the ranking algorithms.
@Andreas Sure, if you want to. I just feel like my blanket-OT request isn't really sustainable on further thought.
 
@dbc These are actually interesting questions, despite being off-topic.
 
@Andreas That's why we have Webmasters
 
@Braiam Yes, but I don’t crawl that site.
 
1:40 AM
@Andreas We sometimes have to tell users to follow it
 
@Braiam I will do as you instruct, my master.
 
1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null, by request
 
 
3 hours later…
5:24 AM
@oguzismail No. That's straight general computing.
 
@Makyen Intriguing though, I'd set a bounty if it was on-topic
 
@oguzismail Yeah, and I must admit that my normal solution to such a problem is on-topic: "The tool doesn't do what you want? Well, then, you download the source distribution and just modify the code it to do what you want and compile it." But, the person asking doesn't sound like they are wanting an actual programming solution. :;
 
5:48 AM
@Makyen and several other GAS tags are fraught with such questions but they're rarely closed.
How is this, or this on-topic?
 
@Vega Nice avatar. Is that a recent change, or did I manage to previously miss that you'd changed it?
 
6:10 AM
@Makyen Thank you, I wasn't expecting it to be seen. I changed it 2-3 weeks ago :)
 
@Vega I guess I've just been distracted/oblivious then. I completely missed it :; It looks good. :)
 
6:48 AM
^ It is very Dark Gray there :D
 
7:45 AM
Is this question answerable or does it needs details or clarity?
 
@JeanneDark definitely not answerable as is.
 
Thanks!
 
@oguzismail Aren't IDE questions on-topic?
 
@janw I don't think they should be. If they are, then top (procps-ng): how to control first sample interval? should be on-topic too.
 
8:14 AM
Isn't this (10k+) a bit rude? I should have made a flag-pls request first
 
@oguzismail I think that would be declined. There's no social niceties, but I don't think it rises to a flaggable level
 
@oguzismail Unfriendly, unwelcoming? Not sure for rude
 
Why would it be any of those things?
 
It's condescending anyways
 
How is it condescending?
It is a direct answer to the question that was asked.
 
8:19 AM
@CodyGray I mean the comment, not the answer
 
They are gone
 
I see.
 
Seems OK to me
 
You had linked to the answer... not the comments.
I deleted a couple of borderline rude comments.
 
The link was https://stackoverflow.com/questions/62442275/can-you-convert-the-statement-into-a-if-loop/62442328?__=1059691384#comment110432821_62442328
How do I properly link to a comment?
 
8:20 AM
No, that's it
You just have to do it before a mod opens the link in another tab due to a prior cv-pls and nukes the comments after seeing flags on them...
Sorry
 
@CodyGray :D
Np
 
Not everyone is that quick as the mod :D
 
@Vega :)
 
666 helpful flags
 
Eek :=)
 
Speaking of the devil... anyone know of an NFS server option for Windows? I found WinNFSd, but it only supports NFSv3, and I need an NFSv2 server.
 
^^ Although it does ask people to "stop closing the question"
 
Worst case: the NFS spec is publicly available
 
@DavidBuck Not anymore.
@JohnDvorak This is a quick one-off thing... I need an NFS server so I can boot an embedded device to fix a corrupted eMMC flash partition. If I wanted to spend more time, I'd just install Linux on a system, not re-implement NFS from the ground up...
 
8:35 AM
fair point
 
Apparently, the distributions in WSL don't support NFS, either, and those are the only Linux systems I have handy.
 
I should still have SuseLive CD laying around.
 
Ah, not a bad idea. Except I don't have any modern systems with an optical drive lying around.
 
boot from flash?
 
How do any of us ever manage to get technology to do anything useful?
 
8:38 AM
We don't, we all pretend ...
 
At one point all technology might cease to work, but until then...
 
@JohnDvorak So, you're saying I need to boot from a flash drive in order to fix a corrupted flash drive? What if I told you I didn't have a Live Linux installation on a flash drive? Would you then say that I needed to flash a flash drive in order to fix a flash drive?
 
If you want to talk philosophy, you could try this
 
@DavidBuck I tried that, but I have so many seductive-looking buttons on my screen...
Waffles
 
Sry, mobile copy/paste acting up
 
8:41 AM
Some day we should perhaps close the entire tag, but not today.
 
@CodyGray can we do first?
 
Woo!
 
@oguzismail No, that one is general computing (asking about a Linux system tool). Recently we retagged lots of TFS and Visual Studio questions - these are on-topic. From the help center: "software tools commonly used by programmers". However, it is certainly hard to draw a line here...
 
8:54 AM
@oguzismail what is the practical programming problem that is being solved there? If that question said: I have this code that I expect to be CPU bound and I use top to prove that. However I can't get top to report what I expect. Am I using top wrong? it would be on-topic. As for IDE's: how to get a syntax highlighter to work, how to jump to a location, how to start a tool from within my IDE are all type of questions that can fit on SO. How to install this IDE is starting to be a gr(e|a)y area.
 
I wouldn't say it's a Gray Area. Installing IDEs isn't really my expertise.
 
9:46 AM
When one moves a message from chat to another room, does one have to be a room owner of the other room or just have speaking rights?
 
@JeanneDark If you post a close vote request, why don't you also close vote? :)
 
@klutt I can't, I can only flag.
 
@klutt Some of us are "minors" :)
 
Haha, true. Did not think of that. I tend to assume that everybody who finds this room are 3k users.
 
JeanneDark is probably quite unique in terms of actually closing Question before even reaching the privilege to go to the review queues :)
 
9:51 AM
I think what you're looking for, @Austin, is [tag:reopen-pls]. But I've already reopened that one.
 
@CodyGray Really, yes. Thanks. Confused. :p
 
Does this question qualify as recommendation? "can someone guide me with a link to the ECMAScript specification where they describe operator precedence and operator associativity"
 
@JeanneDark I'd say it can be trivially rephrased with an edit to make it on-topic. "Where in the ECMAScript specification does it say...?"
That one desperately needs editing to get rid of that awful abuse of inline code formatting.
 
Thanks!
 
Geeze! Do we have a <300 user here? :D
That's impressive
 
9:54 AM
Even <3 users see crap questions on the homepage...
 
That's depressingly easy
 
That's true, but I think I had at least a couple of thousands rep before I even knew that this room existed
 
@klutt I was at 20k I guess
 
I didn't start participating here until I had a diamond.
 
@klutt the halcyon days, hey? :p
 
9:58 AM
@CodyGray I heard rumours that you didn't like the room as well, and didn't intend to use it :)
 
@Scratte I had concerns in the early days.
 
@CodyGray I'm happy that you've become a regular :) It's so nice being corrected for things said 792 messages ago ;) (Not kidding)
 
Haha
 
@Scratte You counted them? {grin}
 
@halfer Good point :) But, it's happened so often that chances are it's the right number of at least one event :D
 
10:07 AM
I just assumed he had a userscript to count them.
 
@CodyGray That would have been a little obsessive :)
 
Hello guys, I've got a question. Why can't I reject/approve an edit on my own post? stackoverflow.com/a/63325027/9942418
 
@IslamElshobokshy You should be able to. What do you see on this page?
 
@Islam umm... you're currently blocked from reviews and approving/rejecting an edit is a "review"...
 
Ah, I see o.o Didn't know it blocks me also from my own posts.
 
10:18 AM
Yeah... that's unexpected...
 
Bug maybe? Anyways I'll leave that here, do what you want with this information ^^
And thanks for the answer!
 
@JonClements That actually makes sense. They shouldn't be able to review suggested edits on their own posts, either. But they can still edit their own posts if there's no suggested edit pending.
 
I can't even edit my own post @CodyGray, I'm fully blocked
Well, I can, but if there's a pending edit I can't reject it to edit my post.
That's where it doesn't make sense for me
 
Correct. You cannot edit the post because there is a pending suggested edit.
 
Some guy is copying popular U&L questions to his YT channel, I wonder if there's one for SO too :d
 
10:29 AM
@Austin please see socvr.org/…
 
@rene is giving pre-emptive advice now. That's some next-level stuff.
 
I've my reasons ...
 
10:42 AM
@oguzismail lol! That first video did not make me want to watch another.
What is the point of watching a video of text? I mean.. it's just text being showed for x amount of time.
 
@rene lol. First time here, trying to sneak through and in the process messing up.
 
np
@Scratte well, a video of code does have some value, according to some: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/397409/… ...
 
Yes. I remember that. I almost cried from laughing :)
 
There is a mixed bag of votes on that question overall but I'm glad I made it made you smile :)
 
10:59 AM
I blame the inability to see sarcasm, or just lack of humour :)
I also really liked the one by Temani Afif 3 comments down from that one.
 
@Scratte :D ask that to Gen Z CS students
 
11:18 AM
@rene Next time, you'll know not to include my gravatar so conspicuously unless you want downvotes.
 
11:36 AM
@MrUpsidown Hiya. Your last seven close requests all have an answer from one user, "Pagemag". I think we need to be careful here about targetting answerers.
Are you of the view that they are answering off-topic questions?
 
@CodyGray tbh I considered finding another example as I reckoned that specific example might raise some eyebrows but then I remembered that I'm reckless ...
 
I confess I don't know if there is a specific room rule about focussing on answer authors (in the way that there is for question authors).
 
@halfer, yes you are right and I do this on purpose. This user promotes him/herself as a Google tech support and keeps answering off-topic questions and uses SO to do what I would call Google Maps first level support which IMO should not happen here.
 
@MrUpsidown just don't do that here "on purpose"
 
@rene would you tell me why I shouldn't?
 
11:40 AM
We have room rule 20
 
because we don't target users here
 
I am not targeting a user. I am targeting bad questions. It just happens that this user answers mostly bad questions.
 
@MrUpsidown I notice that all of Pagemag's answers are DVed. On the surface they look quite good (often good answers to bad questions). I would worry that someone is systematically targetting them with votes too.
 
That includes targetting questions that are answered by a single user
@MrUpsidown that might be true but by our definition you are targetting a user. Raise a mod flag.
 
The first ° from the rule
 
11:41 AM
I do down vote quite often yes and after all I think I am free to decide what/when I want to down vote
 
@MrUpsidown No, definitely not. We have a mechanism to prevent voting by user (the serial voting reversal script).
 
I did raise a mod flag already.
 
Then please don't parade the questions here
 
I am not down voting this user's answer when it is of good quality and the question did deserve an answer.
 
@MrUpsidown Even so, we should try not to DV more than once per user knowingly. It can be hard because sometimes some users are extraordinarily difficult, but nevertheless, there is a strong Meta ethic that this is discouraged.
 
11:45 AM
When I raised a flag, the mod apparently also found suspicious activities since user got like -300 rep. so I really believe this user is making a bad use of SO. That said, I will comply with your request to not target his/her questions here.
 
It's fine to have several DVs on the same user by accident, i.e. when the content is found organically, and the voter genuinely forgets the username/avatar. We've probably all got that in our voting histories.
+1
 
@halfer I have even raised this "issue" on meta: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/399137/… but I am not too sure whether anything will happen. I just think it's wrong for Google (or Google employees) to use SO to do first level support on questions that ARE off-topic or against the guidelines...
 
@halfer I rarely look into the avatar/username :)
 
@MrUpsidown I agree that Google and other big corps try to dump support onto SO. However, I think it is OK if it produces on-topic questions (and even better if Google engineers answer on the site).
@Braiam I expect I forget thousands of them
 
@halfer it is very OK if they would use SO as it's supposed to be. That is, posting a comment directing the user to the relevant help page, or closing a question as a dupe when it is, etc. but they are doing the opposite... always place an answer, whatever the question quality, or when duplicates exist, etc. etc.
 
12:00 PM
@halfer I think my point was that I don't look at them when doing stuff :)
 
@MrUpsidown Well, I agree with the Meta post, as that helps bring the issue out in the open.
I have sometimes explained to answer authors, when they are confused about a DV on a good post, that they received it because some readers wish to discourage answering O/T questions.
 
I have already commented on some of these "Google support employees" answers explaining why they should not answer off-topic questions but apparently it had no impact as they keep doing the same.
I mean... I did comment, I did down vote, I did raise a mod flag, I opened a META post, I am discussing here about it... I think I did my best to change this behavior but so far without success :)
6
 
@MrUpsidown While swiming against the current may seem pointless, don't stop. Someone may see you and help you out :)
 
12:16 PM
@MrUpsidown Full disclosure - I have asked for the serial downvotes to be removed. Apologies, but we need to be very careful here.
But yes, I support your desire to not have big corps dump work on volunteers!
 
@Braiam Thanks
@halfer I thought "serial down voting" was when this would happen in a short time, not over a few months and that this would be taken care of by some automated process. But fine, if you believe this is the way to go. To me, what I down voted deserved to be down voted. Especially when the question is about billing, or a non-working API key or other non reproducible issues that should be raised directly with Google support team (and not on SO!).
 
12:35 PM
@MrUpsidown I think this is the canonical post about serial voting: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/126829/…. The general ethic on Meta has been "don't up/down vote by user". However maybe there is some leniency over long periods that I have not heard about.
I suspect any thoughtful ethic about permitted serial voting would be open to large-scale abuse - not sure if mods want that headache!
 
Well... the accepted answer mentions systematic voting and within a short period of time ;) as I said, it's not systematic (only when I think the answer is bad, or wasn't needed) and it was over a few months. But let's see what mods think...
 
@halfer the Meta post leaves much to the imagination & wishful thinking. The implicit premise there is downvoting user content irrespectively of the quality.
When someone visits a user profile, checks posts, and chooses to downvote only what they consider downvotable (leaving other stuff alone), I highly doubt it can be considered serial voting fraud in spirit
 
+1 but if you do down vote 20 posts from the same user within a few minutes, I would think the system will take this as voting fraud
 
@desertnaut Hmm, first I have heard of that view here, in some 10 years! I don't have Meta refs right now, but (not) serial voting is something that people appear to have felt quite strongly about.
 
Now, in letter... good luck! It would certainly seem that what @MrUpsidown has described himself doing is not against the rules as laid down in the subject post
 
12:45 PM
I would take the serial voting reversal script as a sign that a prohibition on knowingly serial voting by user is baked into the system. But I am certainly happy to see the topic revisited; maybe the Meta community are closer to your position now.
 
People can feel quite strongly about anything - the point is what are the rules?
 
Some authors are capable of producing a large amount of material that is badly written, LQ content, or both.
@desertnaut Sure. I expect there is plenty of other SV material around.
 
and also - what is the priority of the relevant rules?
 
using a userprofile to find posts to curate is just asking for trouble, sooner or later, rules or not.
 
@halfer And so? We should let them do? Probably not. But we shouldn't down vote as it would be fraud. So we should raise a custom flag. I am just wondering what actions would be taken.
@rene, maybe you are right, but it shouldn't be IMO, when that user posts 75% LQ or unneeded answers.
 
12:50 PM
I'm right, at least for the rules in this room. Let that be clear.
 
Example: I have some crap in front of me; what is my greater obligation - to downvote it (as the general rules ask from all good SO users, so that crap goes to the bottom), or to leave it alone, because I have already downvoted 1-2 posts from the same user in the (maybe distant) past???
 
Please, help me find an appropriate reason to close this homework question: Can we reduce the time complexity of this code? Asked today, almost 5k views, probably some competition.
 
@Georgy Code Review, I think. It works, but they want it to run faster.
 
I just posted a question in The Ministry of Silly Hats, but as I see this discussion moving along, I though it would be better suited to just ask it here:
 
5k views in a day is impressive!
 
12:51 PM
Some time ago, I flagged a user for consistently providing answers to off-topic questions. They had 99 helpful flags, and over 2000 answers. I see they’ve gotten a bit more helpful, since they now have 101 helpful flags, but still answer a lot of off-topic questions, as much as 5 questions in an hour, many of which have been closed, and in one of the answers also stating that «this question really is too broad». They have a gold badge in the tag. Should I flag this user again?
 
@Georgy needs more focus?
 
@Georgy Not all terrible questions are off-topic. Just downvote it.
 
@Georgy It might be worth scanning Meta to see if cheating in code competitions is disallowed. It might have the same ethics as cheating at homework. It would not surprise me if it is allowed, since "cheating" is not a valid close reason.
 
@rene this is crystal clear regarding the rules of the room
 
@Andreas answering isn't the problem. That those questions are asked and not enough users vote to close / down vote so those that ask these questions get quality banned. By focusing on the users that answer you're attacking the problem at the wrong end.
@desertnaut thanks
 
12:57 PM
@rene No; they’re not doing their job. They’re encouraging LQ questions. They’re making sure that people cannot delete their questions, because they got an answer. They’re also making a bad example. This user has a lot of reputation. - And, they are not voting or flagging to close. The point of flagging is to have a moderator talk with them.
 
@rene, don't take this bad but you sound very categorical in each message you post here. Don't forget that not all rules are clear to everyone, that they all come from the community and that they are all subject to change and most of them to interpretation.
 
@rene I personally went with "Needs details and clarity" in the end. The problem description with such terms as "happy numbers" could be formulated better.
@halfer Yep, looks like it's fine here: SO is being used as a real-time cheating platform
 
@Andreas Where not all here with the same intent and you're definitely not the person who tells me what to do or not to do in my free time. I like answering crap and I do so.
 
@rene What?
 
@MrUpsidown sure
 
1:01 PM
One man's crap is another man's fertilizer.
 
@rene Do you expect me to take your other message seriously after that?
 
@Georgy Yep, I figured
 
@Andreas you seem to think you can demand or control what people do on this site. I doubt you can.
 
@rene No, I don’t?
 
I read it that way
 
1:03 PM
While the discussions about what constitutes serial voting or how often to flag a user are very interesting, they might merit their own MSO questions (if a prior question with a satisfactory answer hasn't been found), so the community (and mods) can weigh in and reply.
 
I am seeking to stop a never-ending, constant stream of VLQ contributions to the site.
 
@Andreas But, whatever your/my/others' views are, it isn't really a topic for SOCVR, and is uncomfortably close to "moderating a user." Maybe a better fit for a "discussion" question on Meta.
 
Yus please for a new Meta question {thumbs up}
 
@rene I think you read it the wrong way then. You can discourage people from misusing the platform. You surely can't control what they do. A mod can though, on a user account level.
 
@AdrianMole Hence why I first posted it in the other room; I moved it here as I saw the other discussion moving along, and I felt my question was related.
 
1:04 PM
@AdrianMole Do flowers prefer crap or fertilizer?
 
@halfer Same thing, is not?
 
There already is a Meta post on what could be the same user.
 
@AdrianMole I dunno. Do you know any flowers we can ask? :=)
 
Not to discourage anyone from taking things to Meta, but please consider what you really expect is to be done about it before asking a question. Do you think we should suspend users for answering questions that you personally dislike, especially where their suitability for this site is subjective?
 
@Andreas So, there you go! Once something becomes a Meta discussion, it's pretty much a no-go area in here.
 
1:07 PM
@CodyGray Suspend them for providing a steady stream of VLQ content to the site. It’s been discussed in different sections of Meta already. The original flag (July 29) was marked helpful. I was wondering it I should flag again now.
 
@CodyGray suspend users for answering questions that you personally dislike - no, but somehow, I wouldn't be against that when the community dislikes it ;)
 
Suspending users for contributing answers just isn't something that moderators tend to be willing to do.
 
@MrUpsidown the platform is for answering questions. If I find a question that is not closed and I can answer how am I misusing the platform?
 
Rarely are these types of flags on things that are objectively VLQ content.
 
@rene you are misusing the platform IMO if you answer it when you know it should be closed.
 
1:09 PM
@rene By not flagging/closing the question if it should be. I’m not talking about 1, or 2, or 3 answers like this; I’m talking about an answer like this every tenth minute.
 
@CodyGray Eh, there's a suspension reason for it: contributing poor quality content :D
 
@Braiam That's designed for consistently asking low-quality and/or off-topic questions.
 
@MrUpsidown I'm not interested in all these complex rules about votes and flag. Too complicated. I contribute here with posting answers as I do on any other forum. / cc @Andreas
 
Again, to @MrUpsidown and @Andreas, in all the cases I've seen flagged, it is not at all obvious or objective that the questions should be closed.
 
@CodyGray Maybe you should leave a comment?
 
1:12 PM
I grow tired of leaving comments.
 
Unless that list changed.
 
Yeah, that... the UI hasn't looked like that in years.
 
@rene I am lost now as to where you want this discussion to go and/or what your point is.
 
But the items changed?
 
But yes, the public banner displayed on the profile still says "contributions," I think. Those messages are very generic.
The actual explanatory message that we send them is all about asking questions, links to Help Center articles, etc.
 
1:14 PM
@CodyGray I am not sure to which message you were referring to? sorry I got lost in this multi-part discussion...
 
There's a moderator message template that we can send users for consistently asking low-quality questions. It basically just rehashes the Help Center, and tells them that we really want them to have a good experience here, so if they could plz just read it, that would be super great, thx.
Yes... having this thrown into the discussion is confusing, I agree.
 
Do you have that same template for LQ answers?
 
@CodyGray Well, apparently it was also asked to be added to the templates meta.stackexchange.com/q/243654/213575
 
@MrUpsidown No, such a thing does not exist. I've never seen a user who posted sufficiently low quality answers to receive a message like that.
 
@CodyGray BTW, for some reason that message made the ping sound. I almost had a heart attack D:
 
1:18 PM
mmmh... can I suggest a few? ;) ok just kidding and I don't know what the "amount" would need to be to receive such a message...
 
If they were truly posting low-quality answers, they'd end up answer-banned, which is way more effective than any kind of message that we could send out.
@Braiam That happens to me every single time. You'd think I'd be used to it by now, but no...
 
Agreed
 
Wait, my settings appeared to have been "when mentioned", and I'm sure I didn't get pinged when MrUpsidown pinged me before.
 
@MrUpsidown My point remains: You're approaching this from the wrong end IMO but I'll let it go. I'll wait for the consensus.
 
@CodyGray No, they won’t. This is a tag of much VLQ getting upvoted, after all.
 
1:19 PM
I assume I can safely flag this as NAA to ^^ question, as the poster states "this is not an answer to this question" even though it is 'an answer'...
 
If it's getting upvoted, it's not VLQ.
 
@CodyGray That statement makes no sense. Upvoting is subjective, and people upvote for a whole lot of different reasons.
 
Depends who upvotes it I think
 
Note the "V" there. V means "very". If it's getting upvoted more than once, it's pretty much guaranteed not to be VLQ.
With the exception of voting fraud or something like that going on.
 
It could be case of voting on technical correctness instead of usefulness.
It's not that rare.
 
1:22 PM
I remember that in this case there was a -300 reputation event.
 
OK. Let's suppose it is. What's wrong with that?!
If an answer is technically correct, then it is, in some non-trivial sense, useful. And it's definitely not VLQ.
 
Some people just upvote because others downvoted
 
It may discourage contributions when you see crap getting upvoted?
 
Why would that discourage contributions?
 
An answer can be technically correct yet completely useless.
 
1:24 PM
All of this has a very simple fix: more downvoting.
 
If an answer ignores some of the constraints posed by the question, the question nevertheless shows as answered
 
If my "quality" contribution is as good as crap... well, I don't like my contributions being equal than crap.
 
More downvoting could be achieved by finally killing the rep cost already
 
@CodyGray No. 1 upvote = 5 downvotes. Certain tags barely have downvoters! Shit garbage gets upvoted!
 
The vast majority of people that I see complaining about purportedly low-quality content are rarely doing much downvoting.
I believe that this strips them of much of the right to complain.
 
1:27 PM
@CodyGray Please keep the discussion clean and healthy instead of moving to strawman argumentation and attacks on the person making the arguments, instead of the arguments.
 
I'm speaking generally, not about specific people.
This is going back to my point, that the problem is not enough downvoting.
The platform determines low quality content by what is downvoted.
If it's not being downvoted, then don't expect a moderator to step in and do anything. There's no way we're going to judge a series of upvoted answers as being excessively low quality.
 
Dunno any of you, but my upvote ratio is abysmal.
 
The prevalence of people that upvote just to counter downvotes discourages downvoting.
The 1-rep penalty discourages downvoting.
 
@Braiam You’re welcome to check mine; the vast majority of the upvotes are old. The 10 first (or rather latest) pages of voting are all downvotes, sadly.
 
1:29 PM
I have to actually keep contributing if I want to retain my ability downvote answers indefinitely.
 
No, that doesn't discourage downvoting, not by simple logic. If you downvote, and someone "counters" that downvote with an upvote, the post still has a net zero score. That shouldn't discourage anything. And it means the next person who downvotes will bring the post to a net negative score, and the original user who tried to "counter" it will now be powerless.
All of these arguments are just bunk.
The 1-rep penalty is designed to discourage targeted or spurious downvoting.
 
If I downvote, and somebody upvotes, then my vote didn't change the score, and awarded somebody 8 rep for posting garbage.
 
Losing 1 reputation only discourages people who are obsessed with reputation, and those aren't the people who are really interested in content curation anyway.
I think, as usual, the real problem is that people keep thinking of votes as having something to do with reputation
That's a side effect, and not one you should ever be thinking about.
 
but reputation is what motivates answerers.
 
Not all
 
1:32 PM
I also get very tired of hearing these same arguments trotted out about people "countering" downvotes, etc. Yes, it happens. Of course it happens. People will admit to doing it. And it is very annoying, so it sticks in people's craw, and they bring it up over and over. But in reality, it isn't a problem.
 
my downvote will motivate people to post more of the same.
 
In virtually no cases have 'countered' downvotes actually stopped someone who should have been encountering quality filters or outright blocks from actually getting blocked.
 
I'd like to see some actual statistics on the prevalence; do you have?
 
Only years of doing this
I don't record statistics for every button that I click or every user that I investigate with a question ban.
 
That's ... still better than my source. I admit.
 
1:34 PM
But as long as we keep speculating about what will motivate people, then we're just pissing in the wind. It's highly unproductive, and I think it very much misunderstands how the site is fundamentally meant to work.
 
On related news: Apple seems to think it owns every fruit trademark :)
In case someone is thinking about a chick fruit logo,
 
I agree - real statistics or empirics are better than predictions
 
Or just... not worrying about things we can't do anything about, like human psychology.
 
@CodyGray just remember to keep the wind behind your back
 
Just remember: if you keep holding it inside yourself, you'll only hurt yourself.
 
1:41 PM
The discussions have diminished the visibility of older requests
 
@JeanneDark If you use the user scripts, there's a search page for them.
 
@CodyGray The platform determines low quality content by what is downvoted True and I agree with most of your points. But sadly not every Q/A, not every tag gets the same visibility and sometimes I just don't understand how/why an answer (or a question) gets upvoted, in some cases even gets accepted and believe me it's stil very very LQ. I have even seen users accepting answers they claimed wasn't working!
My whole point is that some people post a lot of LQ/VLQ and don't really deserve what they should (IMO down-votes) and I agree that it's the best way to handle LQ posts.
don't really get what they deserve is what I wanted to write
 
I really don't think that any of the answers you added to your Meta question count as "VLQ", or even low quality.
 
1:57 PM
Ok, maybe? Then we really don't have the same vision of LQ... So you mean this is good quality? stackoverflow.com/a/61925851/1238965
And what about the question? Is it good also? Did it deserve an answer?
 
@CodyGray It’s not necessarily each answer alone that is VLQ, but the sum of all of them. It is a problem when a gold tag badge holder at 50000+ reputation answers questions that should be closed, every 10 minutes, never downvotes, almost never flags, and has 30-50% of their answers downvoted, even in a tag that rarely sees a lot of downvotes. Their actions flood the site with LQ content, and encourages others to do same, and teaches new users the opposite of what’s correct to do.
 
@Andreas, I am very much with you on that
 
The question is not relevant to assessing the quality of the answer.
 
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