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12:00 AM
The edit fixed it in that case. It was a dupe, now it's not
 
@xendi Nope. Your edit there came 4 minutes after it was closed.
 
Then it was closed while I was editing. But is it in the reopen queue?
 
Not yet. I imagine it will be. I'm not entirely sure what the rules are on Meta.
Reopen queue matters less there because there are enough questions that people are able to see them all manually.
 
Trust me, it won't be reopened.
 
Why should I trust you?
I'm pretty sure I have more experience with questions on Meta than you do.
I see lots of questions get reopened. I reopen many of them myself.
 
12:02 AM
I'm not suggesting none do
 
There is one thing worth pointing out: questions almost never get reopened just to get closed for a different reason. So, if a question gets closed as unclear, then you make an edit clarifying it, but it now becomes a duplicate... the question almost never gets reopened only to be reclosed as a duplicate.
I'm 99% sure that "hide close votes" is also a duplicate of a previously proposed feature request.
So what I'd probably end up doing there is adding that other duplicate to the list.
 
I get that things like that can happen but I doubt you're suggesting that none fall through the cracks or that existing down & close votes don't perpetuate biases. I would suggest that edits often don't correct for that happening.
This was a good idea meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/254121/… but the people replying danced around the issue
 
The biases I see more evidence of are askers being biased against their own questions being closed.
No, I think that's a terrible idea. For starters, there's no motivation whatsoever. But deeper, one of the purposes of a downvote is to provide immediate feedback. If it's hidden, no feedback is being provided.
 
Not hidden from the asker
 
No, I'm not talking about the asker.
The primary purpose of downvotes is to provide feedback to other users that the question is not interesting, clear, useful, whatever.
Voting is a content rating system. If you're hiding the content ratings, then you're doing no good.
 
12:11 AM
Okay but that could wait for an answer to be accepted, especially in the case of downvotes where a question is in the negative
either an answer accepted or question closed. Biases are real
 
Absolutely not! I don't want to get suckered into looking at a low-quality question just because no answer has been accepted.
 
For you to review a low-quality question, you would feel you had been suckered?
 
I'm not talking about reviewing. Reviewing means utilizing the review queues, stackoverflow.com/review. I'm talking about seeing the question, e.g., on the homepage.
 
In that case, I would say let it show as 0 until answered. if it's at 0, you wouldn't expect it to high quality yet. The real score would still affect search.
 
Still doesn't solve the problem. If real users have looked at it and judged it to be a post worthy of a downvote, then it's not scored at 0, and I want to know that information. Why should multiple people waste their time looking at it when people already have?
 
12:18 AM
Even sorting. It might indicate the lots of downvotes exist but at least it doesn't play into the psychology of voting
 
Fundamentally, you seem to be operating under the assumption that Stack Overflow is something like a help desk. It is not.
 
No, I assume that stack overflow would prefer questions that were changed from bad to good be able to be reviewed for what they have become rather than a sort of genetic fallacy
 
The site doesn't really cater to questions that change from bad to good, nor should it. The problem goes away if you stop posting bad questions from the beginning.
We have the ability to reopen such questions as an escape hatch, and it works supremely well. But the reality is that most questions never go from bad to good, and we shouldn't really expect them to. We definitely shouldn't go out of our way to build tooling and certainly not to break things that already work well in order to accommodate low-quality questions.
 
That doesn't remove the value of all the lost questions and you can't expect everyone to always succeed at that.
I do not agree that it works supremely well
 
Right, I don't expect everyone to succeed at that. That's why it's critical that we get those questions downvoted and removed ASAP.
 
12:21 AM
It works some of the time
If that were the case, there would be no suggestion to edit your question. I'm still looking at the last one I linked. Still closed and I'm pretty sure it will never reopen, despite now being valid. There must be thousands like that. This site handles human bias terribly imo and that's not what I'm even complaining about. It's that the same system that perpetuates the bias, perpetuates itself from addressing it.
preventing itself from addressing it rather. Anyway, I have to get back to work. later
 
You need to learn to start embracing the bias. We don't cater for questions that start out bad and become good. Stop asking questions that don't meet our guidelines and expecting to change them magically into a good question later. Then, the problem of bias doesn't exist.
The bias is a feature, not a bug. We want low-quality questions to get pushed down to the point of invisibility.
 
For a slightly different perspective, I could get behind a feature request to notify me when a question that I've downvoted or close-voted is edited and subsequently upvoted (indicating that it has been improved and may be worth a second look). But it's such a niche situation that I can't see it ever being implemented, so I wouldn't propose it myself.
 
@RyanM good you included "subsequently upvoted" otherwise you'd have a very full inbox... I would also include answers I've downvoted in that, not just questions
 
Ah, yeah, should've said "posts," though I rarely downvote salvageable answers.
 
@RyanM Yeah, that's a somewhat different way of approaching it, which... I would hate personally, but probably wouldn't object to.
 
12:36 AM
While I'm with Cody that SO should focus on questions that start out good (and the dev team should focus its effort on helping people not write bad questions in the first place), I do agree that in an ideal world where there's unlimited time to fix problems, SO could also do a better job of handling questions that go from bad to good, and that would be a good thing.
 
There's an unlimited time to fix the problems before clicking the Submit button...
 
@RyanM Realistically, though, what percentage of posts you come across in the Reopen queue do you actually vote to reopen? (Other then Haskell questions, which are, de facto audits.)
 
If only the resources prominently provided to askers contained better advice on what sort of things to do...I'm thinking of things like an automatic prompt if you ask an [android] question with the word "crash" to add a complete stack trace.
 
I mean... how much hand-holding is really required? Programmers should know how to ask a question and/or submit a bug report. Have you looked at the Ask Question page and noticed the sidebar? It provides lots of tips now, including a link to the Minimal, Reproducible Example help page.
 
@AdrianMole I think a less broken reopen queue would go a long way toward handling questions that go from bad to good well...
 
12:40 AM
(Although, I just noticed, it gets the grammar wrong. It says "minimum", when it should be "minimal".)
 
waffle
 
... or even minimally?
 
@DavidBuck I had forgotten that. I should’ve remembered it, but I had the impression that the rules concerning cv-pls had been loosened somewhat. Also; if I can use what Makyen wrote soon after, in my defence: «The point of the room is to get the questions closed which are of most benefit to the site to close.»
I’d say it’s important to close off-topic questions with more than 40 net votes. It may not have had any written activity, but it still received views. Questions with a lot of upvotes set an example.
 
@RyanM Did somebody mention waffles? I love waffles.
 
Aha. So that’s why the send button refused to give in for my screen tap. Too long message. Great UX.
 
12:42 AM
... oops, wrong room. ?!£$
 
@Dharman Could you link the original post in here, when you’re unable to mark the duplicate post as a duplicate, because you’ve already flagged it for another reason?
@AdrianMole Yum
 
@Dharman Thanks.
 
@Dharman both are duplicates of the old chestnut stackoverflow.com/questions/22662488/…
 
Meh, lacks minimal understanding
 
12:54 AM
@CodyGray I'd bet a lot of users don't even see that, since it really looks like the not-super-relevant stuff in the sidebar: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banner_blindness. Also, wishing that people would read an article on how to do the thing correctly may be reasonable, but since in practice they don't, it either needs to do something that works on those people, or accept that there is going to be a huge flow of crap.
Also, programmers in practice often suck at bug reports. We get crap like this all the time.
Good programmers don't, but if you figure out a way to reliably filter for good programmers on a website, I think you've got a good money-making opportunity for a hiring business.
 
@RyanM like stackoverflow.com/jobs ? :)
 
Indeed! Just apply the good-programmer filter to that and the Q&A site, and SE will be set for life.
 
1:13 AM
@IanCampbell Please see: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/41570?m=49918590#49918590 for the changes needed to get the auto-comment script to work on close-vote reasons again.
@Andreas cc @Dharman The preferred method of indicating a duplicate-target when you haven't voted or flagged to close with that dup-target is to leave a comment on the question, not in a message here in SOCVR. Having it in a comment on the question makes it available to everyone that looks at the question, not just users from SOCVR. Given that the system produces a comment for close-votes and flags, most people are going to be looking for a comment anyway, so it's more likely to communicate.
4
 
@Makyen that particular question was a direct copy of OPs earlier question which had no answers, so couldn't be flagged as a duplicate
 
@Nick I’ve flagged as self-duplicate of unanswered questions.
 
@Nick If the question was posted by the same actual user, then you can close-vote/close-flag with any question also by that user as the dup-target, without regard to the dup-target having an upvoted answer, or not. If you mean that the questions were by the same person, but different accounts, then you should raise a custom mod-flag and explain the situation, because regular users won't be able to flag or vote to close as a duplicate without an upvoted answer on the dup-target.
 
@Makyen I need to finish my patch. Their "autobuild" instructions are old and no longer work (thanks Oracle)
 
@Machavity Yeah, the way they have that repository set up to build, and that you have to generate the build environment, has been the primary reason I haven't contributed to it. Admittedly, I also don't like the gaping security hole that they have designed in, but I would have submitted a PR to fix that, if the build environment wasn't such a pain.
 
1:31 AM
@Makyen I did have a vague recollection of that but it was too late to edit/delete. Thanks for confirming, I'll try to keep it in a more prominent position in my brain!
 
1:54 AM
@Makyen It works! Thanks!
 
@IanCampbell np. I'm glad it helped. Credit for the PR goes to @Machavity.
 
2:18 AM
Well since you both asked...
Needed a mental break from approving edits. Just saw one that was so obviously bad I thought it was an audit but no, actually a real suggested edit....
the audits, meanwhile, are taking several seconds to load. My mental ML algorithm is getting good at forecasting them. :)
 
2:33 AM
@DanielWiddis Yes, the load time definitely gives away audits.
 
3:38 AM
@RyanM Yes. And also waffles.
@Andreas You've now joined the club! Welcome! We don't have diamonds or anything (well, both of us now do, but...)
 
@CodyGray Yeah, I got confused and thought you meant that the MRE page itself had that typo, when in fact you meant the link from the Ask page...a fact I figured out shortly after hitting enter.
 
@RyanM You linked me to banner blindness! I don't know if you realize how hilarious that is, but I link people (mostly SE staff) that all the time.
@RyanM I have to agree to your Terms of Service before I can see your crap. I decided I didn't need to see the crap that badly.
 
I cannot say I recall seeing you personally link banner blindness - I probably would've added an "as you probably know..." if I had
 
@Makyen Maybe it'd be better just to fork it and maintain it in the way you like? It's not as if Benjol is actively maintaining it anymore now anyway.
 
@CodyGray oh, ugh, that's annoying...it's a bug report with the title set to "java.lang.indexoutofbounds. inconsystency detected" and the body set to an un-filled-out version of the template that tells you what information you need to fill out in order for your bug to be at all useful
 
3:43 AM
@RyanM Surely you should already know. I gave you the error message and everything. Fix your bugs!
 
Needless to say, that is not the actual text of any error that is thrown by the code...
 
@SmokeDetector Hmm. Have you considered using "denylist"?
 
@DanielWiddis Yes, it has been, and is being, discussed.
 
Cool.
One of those things you never noticed and is now jarring.
 
Did you notice that "blacklist" has nothing to do with racism?
That's something I noticed, and now people running around taking mock offense at words in ignorance of their etymologies is something that is now jarring.
 
3:46 AM
 
I did, actually. It was a list of privileged white aristocratic folks.
 
It's also just..."denylist" is far clearer.
"primary"/"replica" over "master"/"slave" has this property to an even greater degree
 
@RyanM Not really. We're not denying anything.
 
Yeah, there are some cases where denylist or primary might be clearer, but not in all.
 
@Makyen ...true. It is less true in this case than some. Alert list, maybe? I'm sure y'all have thought this through more thoroughly than I have, at any rate.
 
3:51 AM
I agree that "slave" is an entirely useless term in computing because it imparts no real meaning.
But this argument that "master" is somehow offensive is just... ridiculous. If you're a "master" programmer, does that mean you own other programmers as slaves? No. If you have a master's degree, does that mean you learned the art of slaveholding? No.
 
@CodyGray It's useful in EE sometimes though
 
There's no real evidence that anyone thought it through... It's just a rush to judgment.
@NobodyNada Yeah, it has some uses, but I would argue that you could choose a more descriptive term there, too, that captured in what ways the device is actually a slave.
But... how are you going to replace "bus-mastering"?
 
I totally misread that hyphenated word.
 
@CodyGray From Wikipedia: "It is also referred to as first-party DMA, in contrast with third-party DMA where a system DMA controller actually does the transfer."
 
Yeah, that Wikipedia article is not good. Lots of buses use bus-mastering schemes that have nothing to do with direct-memory addressing.
It was written by someone who knows only about desktop computer architectures and thinks that's how everything in electronics works.
 
3:54 AM
Oh, that's fun.
I'd try to fix it but I lack the subject-matter expertise (as may be obvious from me quoting that)
 
And, more generally, there might be some other language we could invent. I'm kind of not terrible at inventing convoluted language (after all, I used to teach philosophy). But that doesn't really serve the main purpose of communication, which is clarity and understandability.
If you have to stop all the time and tell people, "Oh, that's the new term for 'bus-mastering'", then how have you really helped anything?
 
@RyanM Yep. I agree with @CodyGray. Just the first sentence makes it clear the person/people who wrote it don't really know what they are talking about.
 
Could you rename it to hammer-with-extreme-prejustice-list?
 
That's partly the problem. It's not really something where you can have subject-matter expertise because the subject is simply too broad.
 
No argument there, which is why I'm not objecting to a move away from "black" being a language term for bad, keep out, while "white" is a language term for a-ok.
 
3:57 AM
It's like asking Ian to write an article on protein synthesis. Surely he knows something about it, but could he write a whole article on it that is comprehensive? Meh, check back with him in 5 years.
@IanCampbell I thought prejudice was bad??!
 
Ugh... am I writing about organic chemistry or translation? Additionally, I have enough papers that I am not writing whilst goofing off on SO, thanks.
Also... bleh, back to the drawing board.
 
@CodyGray perhaps in some cases, although in a specific context (e.g. synchronizing clock signals), it's unambiguous, descriptive and you can tell instantly what it's supposed to mean without having to look it up
 
@NobodyNada True... I just realized I have an in-progress system design that is based around a clock master and a bunch of slaves. Sigh.
Enslaving people is morally abhorrent. Enslaving hardware is rather different.
 
How about, highly-suspect-list?
 
@IanCampbell That's getting closer.
 
4:01 AM
Or danger-will-robinson-list?
 
How about the-list-you-dont-want-to-be-on
 
naughty-not-nice-list
 
Naughty is a fantastic word that should be used more
 
Schindler's List
wait, no.
 
You sure know how to drag down a light hearted list naming conversation....
 
4:02 AM
@CodyGray Yeah, that would be like going from the frying pan into the fire.
 
I know how to drag down most anything
 
Have you considered a third job as an anchor?
 
"Naughty list" is pretty on point...it also correctly likens Smokey to Santa, in that they're both constantly watching us all...and quietly judging.
 
It might pay too much...
 
Replace ♦︎ with ⚓️. (On a side note, why does unicode think we need an anchor emoji?)
 
4:04 AM
Does anyone know how to make a GitHub organization repo visible to all organization members? It looks like GitHub Enterprise has an option to make repos internally visible to all members of the enterprise. Is there something similar for non-Enterprise organizations?
 
There were some complaints a few years back about how the Help Center's advice to "pretend you're on Jeopardy!" for asking and answering your own questions was an example of American imperialism and interfering with communication because most countries don't have and can't relate to such a show.
It might be a similar problem with Santa Claus.
 
I honestly thought about that before I recommended it
 
@user76284 Seems like a question for GitHub technical support. Or perhaps you'd like GitLab better.
 
Then I thought, "Hey, spam is western capitalist carnivore imperialism I'll lean in"
 
Indeed
 
4:06 AM
We could rename Smoke Detector to Krampus, for internationalization purposes. Or maybe that's just overly specific localization...
 
I said this earlier, elsewhere, but... There are plenty of things going on in the world that we should be angry about, that we should be fighting against, that we should be doing literally everything in our power to put a stop to. We don't need to make up things or blow minor things out of proportion.
 
"Smoke Detector" is just Honeywell trying to sell more lifesaving radioactive beep machines...
 
Or we could go European and rename SmokeDetector to Saint Nick
 
@Nick Sinterklaas!
 
@CodyGray where's that from?
 
4:09 AM
@Nick Ask rene (Netherlands)
Also other places
It's one of the historical sources for the modern invented figure of Santa Claus
 
Ah... hadn't seen that one. Saint Nick is obviously my favourite :)
 
One of the guys who used to be around here all the time and was eventually hired as an employee, Pops (user name Popular Demand), used to trot out this analogy about picking up a candy wrapper, while ignoring the huge piles of trash off to the side. Picking up the candy wrapper was "the least you could do". But... the very, very least. You shouldn't congratulate yourself about doing this.
All the energy we're expending on changing completely harmless names, rewriting our software, revising our processes, changing the way we think... Ugh, think of if that energy could be spent in more constructive, meaningful ways. Think of if we actually did something that would fight against racism. It's the least you can do!
 
@CodyGray I see Sinterklaas is also based on the legend of Saint Nicholas... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinterklaas
 
Yes
It's literally Dutch for Saint Nicholas
 
Gotcha.
 
4:16 AM
Now there's an enterprise I can support: converting that useless Android app to a Windows app for ease of use! :-p
 
@CodyGray I mean, Apple's decided it's not that bad of an idea...
 
I was cooking up a witty retort, and then I was like... well... this is exactly what Apple is doing
And then for a moment I wondered if the question was answerable.
 
@CodyGray Sorry, best I can do is a Chrome app
 
Not exactly the same... Apple's doing it to allow Mac apps to run on iPad, but those are essentially identical operating systems.
 
@CodyGray Actually it's iPad apps running on Mac, but fair point
 
4:19 AM
OK, couldn't tell which direction it was at a glance
Made a guess. Had a 50:50 shot.
 
Answer: don't. Just use one version.
 
If only that worked...
 
I say as I cherry-pick commits between my project's branches for compatibility.
 
I maintain tools that are necessarily customer- or at least application-specific. There's a generalized framework due to my own insistence/stubbornness, but far too much of it is custom.
 
"But that's easy, just read from a config file, that solves everything!"
 
4:23 AM
Try, if at all possible, to have one codebase, where you swap in configurations, or, if necessary, customer-specific code only where needed.
 
@RyanM #ifdef to the rescue!
 
(the answer on that question is what I would recommend, actually, but I'd flesh it out more)
 
@RyanM Do I need to reopen it so you can do so?
You software folks think forks are bad... My company has customer-specific hardware.
 
I'm not sure that would provide that much value. If I wanted to write that answer I'd maybe self-answer an SE.SE question :-p
 
4:25 AM
Oh, good point. Gotta pump up your repz over there.
 
from my current rep of, uh, 101.
 
Everyone has to start somewhere!
 
101 is better than 1
Every time I go to the Triage queue I end up skipping about 10 questions for fear of making the wrong choice, then leaving. :(
 
Sounds about right, I can't be an expert in every coding language.
I can sure vote to close the terrible ones though.
 
Triage really shouldn't require domain expertise
 
4:29 AM
I think the "Looks OK" button is the hardest.
 
No, but I think it requires more overall site experience. I'm too much of a softie.
I'm looking at one now. Brief question. Link. I'd probably downvote it. But not spam/unsalvageable. But the FAQ was pretty much "requires editing creates work, don't do it unless you're sure".
 
@DanielWiddis Can the editing be done by someone other than the original poster, without copying content from the link?
 
@DanielWiddis Spam and unsalvageable are not the same. Anything you'd vote to close is unsalvageable. Click the button, and you'll see a familiar set of options.
"Requires editing" means "needs to be edited by the community". If it requires editing from the OP (asker), then that's "unsalvageable" (i.e., vote to close).
 
Hmm. OK, yeah, this is probably unsalvablable. "Help I don't know what option to pick from this link."
 
Probably. Pro tip: most of what you see in Triage is unsalvageable.
It's like a really, really bad plane crash.
 
4:35 AM
I think I've clicked "Needs editing"... twice?
 
Rarely do the victims need editing.
 
Well, that was easy.
Why doesn't it just say "I would vote to close this?" THe word "Unsalvageable" is so harsh.
 
You were right, that was unsalvagable.
 
Do those count as close votes?
 
They do
 
4:36 AM
"Unsalvageable" means "the community can't save this"
The company has a designer working on a major redesign of review. That particular button is a major point of confusion, as is Triage altogether. I'm sure suggestions on what else to call it would be welcome.
They've so far resisted my suggestions on adding more buttons, or labeling buttons with sentences.
 
I forget what it used to be called...
 
I don't think it's ever changed names
 
The "Needs Editing" button used to be called something even more confusing.
OK, maybe I'm making it up
 
ehhhhhhhh I'd call it borderline. It's a question about how to get debug logs from a library, specifying what options they used to turn on logging.
 
"Requires Editing"?
 
4:38 AM
@IanCampbell IIRC the name of the button didn't change, but the description did
 
Yes, it's always been "Requires Editing". At one point, the description/guidance was changed.
 
For years it said something like "improvements from the OP or other users would make this post clear and answerable"
 
@RyanM so you would have chosen differently?
 
I still also think this is a good idea.
 
I think it requires details or clarity. Normally I'd be lurking on and would have already vtc'd it.
 
4:41 AM
I voted to close as needs clarity
 
It does seem "Flag or Close" would be better than "Unsalvagable" and it ought to be the button next to "Looks OK"
 
@DanielWiddis I'd have skipped it, probably, because maybe that just logs to the normal PHP log location, and it's a duplicate of that and/or needs details about why that didn't work. If forced to choose, I'd probably have picked "Looks OK," because "where does this library write its logs and how do I access them?" seems like a reasonable, concrete question at surface level.
 
@RyanM Fair enough which goes back to my original comment of mostly skipping through triage. :)
 
And "needs improvement" would be better named "vote to close"
 
The first week I was on SO I was terrified of Triage, I was afraid Sam was going to track me down and review ban me on my first mistake.
 
4:44 AM
@IanCampbell He waited until your second?
 
I made a point to only review Triage while he was busy doing other things.
 
He does go back and check...
 
Actually, I think Triage is quite hard, I didn't even try for the first few months.
 
Going back to my second comment of "It requires more experience". :)
 
The conflicting guidance on Meta that is like "You don't need domain specific knowledge to do Triage" together with "Slip up and you're banned for a week!" doesn't help either.
 
4:47 AM
Just clicking the faq and reading this scares me away: "You're definitley going to be banned from using the review system for X days for making wrong judgements – even a single review mistake may already get you banned!"
 
@IanCampbell Yeah, the intention is only to ban people who are misusing "Requires Editing" thinking it means "needs clarification by asker". And the long duration of bans were a workaround for a lack of visibility (lots of people were getting banned without ever knowing it), which is now being fixed.
 
Maybe the buttons should say "Looks OK", "Needs Editorial Improvement", "Requires Asker Improvement" and "Skip"
 
@DanielWiddis ...where is that in the FAQ?
 
I know that's a long button, but meh.
 
What would you do for spam? No button for it...
 
4:51 AM
@CodyGray meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/295650/… about halfway down, under addendum: bad triage review
 
If possible, add a 5th button for "Spam or Abuse"
 
I believe bans are also being issued for heinously bad reviews. For instance, if you were to approve something like this (these were all Requires Editing, but Looks OK would be obviously wrong too)
 
@DanielWiddis Ugh.... that's terrible.
 
I get the impression with the other queues and the audit system "hey we're here to help train you" but on that one it seems there's no training, it's jumping into the fire.
 
@DanielWiddis Note in the revision history that that was not added by a moderator or staff member...
 
4:52 AM
I mean, I would love to "train" on several pre-judged questions to see how I did, and learn.
 
@DanielWiddis None of the other review queues offer any training, and that's not the purpose of audits, either.
Training has been proposed, and it's something I'm in favor of. But it definitely doesn't exist.
 
True, but they are also not "one mistake bye bye" either.
 
Sure they are.
 
There's no difference.
Mods issue manual bans for incorrect decisions in all of the review queues.
Triage is not handled any differently either by the system or by moderators.
It just gets talked about more because, despite the description now being unambiguously clear, lots of people still misuse "Requires Editing" to mean "needs to be edited by asker".
 
4:55 AM
You don't think there's extra scrutiny in Triage?
 
Nope
Definitely not
I ban zillions of people based on First Posts and Late Answers. Zillions.
 
But Cody... there are only 12,805,843 users...
 
Becasue he banned the other zillions. :)
 
Haha
 
Remember, users can be suspended from review multiple times.......
 
4:57 AM
I accidentally failed an editing audit yesterday on 39/40 because of a twitchy finger. It was the first audit after 38. I had been looking for it. I feel shame. (I did not get banned.)
Then today I got an audit like every 5th post. I think it's penance.
 
Do you think there could be 5 buttons on the review queue? I don't want to propose something that is technically impossible
 
Oh man, going back and looking at those screenshots in my Meta post, I'm reminded of how bad the top bar was for a short while there. Notice how small the search box is? It doesn't even fit "Search" inside of it. That wasn't due to a userscript...
 
@CodyGray Well, yeah, of course they misuse that. The buttons are confusing. For those that have been at it for a long time, even if they were conscientious and read the instructions back when they started, there's no reason for them to open up the "more" link to see that the instructions for "Requires Editing" have changed in an important, but not very obvious, way.
 
@Makyen Yeah, I used to complain to Shog a lot about the "more" link being collapsed by default. I kinda stopped complaining to him now because rumor has it he doesn't have access to the system anymore.
 
:(
 
5:00 AM
He still gives out report cards though...
 
With grades that are way too high.
 
5:11 AM
How about this for a Triage redesign? i.stack.imgur.com/650C4.png
 
@IanCampbell The "needs editorial improvement" might say something about "community editing"?
 
That could work.
 
5:38 AM
@CodyGray How many hours do you spend deleting these every day? Don't you feel exhausted?
 
@oguzismail I feel very exhausted, but it's not from deleting stuff.
 
From what then?
 
Work
Dealing with stupid people
 
This site is positively relaxing by comparison. It's also empowering to have the ability to do something about it.
 
5:42 AM
@CodyGray It must be so when you have powerful tools to deal with the garbage. For regular users, I mean at least for me, it's infuriating and exhaustive
 
@IanCampbell I'd just go with "Flag / Close" for "Unsalvageable". Those are the same terms used everywhere else on the site for those functions.
 
@oguzismail It's still both of those things in some ways, but the Sisyphean feeling is decreased a little bit. I... try not to think about it too much.
2
 
Ron
waffles
 
The two main problems in my mind are 1) "Unsalvageable" seems too harsh to new reviewers (even thought it's the right answer) and 2) "Needs Editing" sounds like it could need editing from the OP.
 
with real maple syrup.
2
 
5:45 AM
Haha
 
@Ron But, seriously, thank you.
 
Oh well, I shan't fix Triage tonight. See you tomorrow.
 
Ron
@Makyen You are most welcome.
 
@IanCampbell Yes, these have been identified by most everyone, so I think you're on the right track.
Did somebody say waffles? I love waffles. And also Makyen.
 
Ron
I did :)
 
@RyanM How about just changing "Requires Editing" and "Unsalvageable" to "Community Edit" and "Flag / Close"?
 
@RyanM "Meh, I guess it's fine" also skips, right, just like "Dunno"?
@RyanM This...is really darn good.
 
@Makyen That would certainly be an improvement, but with Triage privileges given to such new users, I leaned toward more explicit descriptions on the button text. New users may think "well it needs some improvements by the asker, but we don't need to close it, let's let them try to fix it. It looks OK enough that it could be improved."
 
I don't think it's sufficiently clear what "Community Edit" means.
 
@CodyGray Agreed. "Requires editing" is already tripping people up, I imagine "Community edit" would still do it in a similar way.
I like the idea of separating "stuff others can do" and "stuff OP can do"
 
5:57 AM
@CodyGray I'm not that attached to it. I think the "Flag / Close" is more important wrt. that specific wording.
@VLAZ I'm not seeing how that could be confused with "the OP needs to edit this".
 
@CodyGray That one is for me, mostly in the LQP queue, where I really dislike saying that a terrible answer that doesn't fall into any of the recommend-deletion reasons "Looks OK" :-)
 
@Makyen "OP is part of the community, therefore OP can edit in this missing code"
I am a fan of renaming "Unsalvagable" to something more clear and less...charged.
 
@RyanM I understand the desire for more explicit wording. As to the "Flag / Close": I think that one is important. It's the wording that is used everywhere else on the site, users new to triage have already been seeing "flag" buttons under posts for a while. Part of that flag dialog is closing. That's the dialog that actually opens. Calling it something different is confusing and inconsistent.
 
@Makyen Perhaps "Needs improvement from asker" is better wording, to more closely match the flag dialog. Or just "Needs improvement" to match it exactly.
 
6:03 AM
@CodyGray looks very good. I like the use of colours.
 
Uses the Stacks button styles, which are pretty limited. If it were me, I'd think strongly about using colors even more semantically, perhaps with a green, blue, orange, red color scheme.
Maybe with @Makyen's advice, that red button should be "Flag as spam/abusive"
I do like consistency.
But clarity needs to win out here in Triage whenever they conflict.
 
I like the use of color as well. Provides good categorization and emphasizes the right things in the right way.
 
@RyanM I strongly disagree. The wording used should be consistent across all pages. It's just asking for confusion to have something else, or at least something that uses the same words.
 
@RyanM I have an issue with "needs improvement" - some questions can never actually be improved. "Needs debugging details" definitely can but something like a typo (usually) cannot. Some close reasons aren't really negotiable or reversible.
 
What about "Needs to be fixed by asker (closed)", where "(closed)" is a bit smaller and wraps to the second line?
Wouldn't be natively supported by the existing Stacks styles, but c'mon. A web designer could totally do that.
 
6:07 AM
@RyanM Part of this is that we're not just trying to be consistent with what they have seen ("flag" button that opens the flag/close dialog), but training them for what they will see ("close" button opening the close-vote dialog) once they have the close-vote privilege.
 
@Makyen I'd agree with that - I'm suggesting that it bring up this dialog they get when they click the option to flag-to-close (which is titled "needs improvement"). No need to bring up the full flag dialog.
 
@RyanM Only one problem: that dialog lacks the "duplicate" option. Otherwise, I'd totally agree. Nobody needs to be flagging questions as VLQ or in need of cutting with a diamond from the Triage queue.
 
@CodyGray it is the first option at the top
 
@RyanM Oops. I, um, thought that since they hoisted it out in the flag dialog, they'd have removed it from there.
In retrospect, I don't know why I thought that.
 
@RyanM Then that's just the close-dialog, which should have a button that just says "close". However, there's only 1 button there for the negative response that is the flag dialog. One of the areas of pushback on making a change here is adding an additional button. While adding an additional button is nice, I'd rather not fight that battle. Having long descriptions in the button text makes the design less able to look good on narrower screens, so it's desirable to avoid that where possible.
 
6:22 AM
Is this spam: stackoverflow.com/a/63048023/4657412 I'd go for probably
 
Huh, that's cool. I get a "prohibited" icon in MS when I send an "ignore" response to SD. Why isn't that an option on the MS page directly?
@DavidW It might be someone just using a signature, but meh. It needs to go either way.
 
@DavidW It does try to answer the question, but also had obvious SPAM. I have edited it. Would be nice if some mod could blacklist the user so SmokeDetectod would warn about its answers
 
@bradbury9 Already done.
Hopefully before you edited it...
Please don't edit spam.
 
@bradbury9 Yeah I could see it might have been an honest attempt. Possibly. Hence the uncertainty, rather than just "flag-pls"
 
@DavidW Given the user name...
 
6:29 AM
It was a tentative might...
 
@CodyGray I believe the argument is that "ignore" is totally a function within SmokeDetector. I believe it's also to simplify the UI on MS. I'm not a fan of the reasoning.
 
@Makyen I don't understand the first reason. MS is the UI for SD, right?
(I wanted to replace that "right" with an "OK" so badly...)
 
@CodyGray :)
 
Well, I guess that can be solved by writing that userscript I imagined that would inline those buttons here in SD's messages in chat.
 
@CodyGray metasmoke (MS) is a website that hosts the database of reports from SmokeDetector (SD). MS also controls autoflagging based on the information in those reports and the feedback history (i.e. %TP) of the detections which caught the post, the historical accuracy of posts with similar characteristics getting TP feedback, and how the post matches up with user-defined flagging condition.
 
6:40 AM
That sounds like enough of a front-end for SD that it would make sense for it to contain the "function[s] within SmokeDetector".
 
@CodyGray On the "ignore" feedback issue (and "tpu" feedback issue), I agree that it would be convenient to have those available on MS. From an architecture POV MS and SD are separate machines, although they do communicate over a few different channels (WebSocket and HTTPS).
 
I'm just not following the logic. Yes, of course they're separate machines. I've got plenty of stuff around here where the UI runs on a separate machine from the thing that actually does the doing. That's not a reason for the UI not to reflect all valid options. The TP and FP feedback are also functions within SD, right?
 
The problem is that there are multiple Smokeys with their own ideas what should be ignored, and if MS tries to manage it, it will get confused
 
Really?
Why are there multiple?
 
in case one dies
 
6:49 AM
And which one am I sending the feedback to when I reply?
They don't share databases...?
 
There's always a primary instance that does all scanning, and MS does all remembering.
 
@CodyGray Not all that much. They are just forwarded to MS. The u in tpu is for SD, but the tp isn't. The fp is used by SD, but only to cause the user to be removed from the user blacklist, if the user is on the list.
 
... except the ignore list, which is remembered by instances.
 
Wow, this... is not well designed.
 
This got me wondering - do passive instances listen to ignore list updates? They should.
 
6:51 AM
The ignore list, the user blacklist, and the notify lists are held per SD instance.
 
Really, they should be synchronized by MS
if not outright mastered
 
@JohnDvorak There have been various efforts to improve data sharing between SD instances, including a substantial rewrite.
 
Glad to hear. What's the progress?
 
Honestly, hearing this kinda dampens my enthusiasm for even wanting to use those features.
 
@JohnDvorak The point of having them not being on MS is so the SD instances are not dependent on MS. One of the goals has been that SD can operate separately from MS, and does do so from time-to-time when MS has problems.
 
6:54 AM
Time to multiinstance MS? :thinking:
 
@JohnDvorak Not an unreasonable thing to do. Would you like to supply the money and sys-admin time?
 
sdc coffee all
 
@rene brews a cup of Ristretto for @all
 
One cup? Can we have 40 straws please?
 
(looks up Ristretto) Hmm... concentrated Espresso? Don't think we can all drink that together anyway.
 
6:57 AM
@JohnDvorak That last question might have been a bit harsh. There are lots of things that would be good to do. Almost all of them cost time, effort, and/or money. All of those are limited for a completely volunteer project.
 
I do have a 24/7 machine running; what kind of hardware requirements are we talking about?
I can't vouch for the longevity, especially if MS manages to peg the CPU
 
@JohnDvorak The other thing is security. I'd expect the people in control to be very hesitant to set up an additional MS instance in a non-professional environment. Keep in mind that it has write tokens for several hundred SE accounts.
 
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