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7:00 PM
@Dharman So, then, why would you propose reopening it?
 
but I do not know that particular technology. The error message is there, the code is there and the explanation of what they want to do is there. I saw no reason not to vote to reopen.
@CodyGray Because on the surface it looks like the question is now ok.
 
I don't think there's enough information yet
 
I...don't really think superficiality is a good way to make that decision
 
@CodyGray No, I didn't know and also I kept forgetting to bookmark it for future use. I've done it now. Thanks for the headsup.
 
or that an answer would be useful even if one arrives and happens to be correct
 
7:03 PM
You've overridden the votes of three two people who were convinced that it lacked the necessary information.
@VLAZ You're welcome. Next time, it'll be catsup.
 
You see there are similar questions stackoverflow.com/a/46204169/1839439
 
@Dharman You forgot the [cv-pls]...
 
lol
 
Screenshot of an error message is unsuitable for this site, regardless of age. I was otherwise unsure what your point was.
 
A dupe it is then, and then we close the target!
 
7:04 PM
No, I meant that the previous question looks good to me. I can't really say if it has all the details needed to answer.
As far as the question goes it has code, error and short explanation.
 
That's why you shouldn't vote to reopen. A vote to reopen is an override of the three previous people who voted to close. Unless you're sure, you shouldn't be voting to reopen.
 
Don't reopen if you aren't sure it should be reopened
 
Ok, I will remember that in the future.
 
@AdrianMole That's a good example to prove my point: everything eligible for flagging can just be flagged as NAA.
It's also super convenient that Jeanne is saying everything I would have.
 
How does the reopen queue function then. I can't be an expert on every technology. If I go to review reopen queue I get all kind of questions. I rarely go there for the sole reason that I can only filter PHP questions
 
7:07 PM
@CodyGray Yes. I had been semi-subconsciously looking for an example that defied your assertion, but found that instead. I just found it amusing, in the context of what we'd been saying just a day or so before.
 
@Dharman Sometimes it's obvious that a question has been fixed. In those cases, you can vote to reopen. If you're unsure, Skip.
 
Here is another explanation of possible issue. stackoverflow.com/a/60943989/1839439
@CodyGray Which is what I did here. Maybe I should not have asked for the third reopen vote here though
 
@Dharman It was obvious to you that it had been fixed and was meeting all criteria for an on-topic question? Then yes, you could ask for a reopen vote. But you didn't sound very confident when I asked you.
 
@Dharman Well, two of the reopen votes were from folks who also voted to close, if that helps. Not sure it does, though.
 
I do remember a post that was reopened by queue.. and it's still open and still unanswerable.
 
7:11 PM
I believe the question has been fixed. It looked ok to me. Whether it is a dupe or if it is even answerable I am not sure. I am not that familiar with that technology to say if the information contained in the question is enough.
 
The way I see it, for both flags and close votes is, someone took the time to review the question and decide, based on their expertise, that it was problematic. That shouldn't be overridden lightly.
It should, of course, be overridden if you disagree, and/or if the situation has changed.
 
In some fairness, the expertise involved in the first close was "this is not english"
it was reopened with that same expertise: the situation had changed, and the post was now English
 
that's not valid defense
 
I know why I voted to close and I judged the question to see if it looked like a proper on-topic question now.
 
I cast a close vote for lacking MCVE, as it's not complete, and left a comment. I'll leave it up to whoever stumbles across it next to figure out if I'm wrong there.
 
7:16 PM
@RyanM So which details do you think need to be added to the question?
 
@Dharman well, right now it defines a lambda function that's never called, so the code doesn't do anything
 
@JohnDvorak what's not a valid defense?
 
@RyanM But that raises another issue I face quite often in the reopen queue: If a closed question is no longer 'closable' for the original reason (such as non-English) but should remain closed for a different reason, should it be reopened only to be closed again (thus placing more burden on the close queue), or should we leave it closed (thus possibly coming across as 'unfair' to the OP)?
 
@AdrianMole I believe the consensus is the latter, unless the new reason is "duplicate" and you have a dupehammer handy
 
@AdrianMole leave closed, possibly provide a comment about what else needs fixing
 
7:17 PM
that is what I usually do ^
 
@RyanM But that is only part of the code and the problem seems to come from res.render. I think the MCVE is there.
 
@Dharman all of that is in a lambda that is not executed
 
@AdrianMole No. If the question should be closed the leave it closed
@RyanM I think it is safe to assume that this is executed somewhere, since they see an error message. How can you get an error message if you don't execute the code?
 
the issue is that we don't have the getProductId call site, so we don't know how it's called, or what's being passed to it. I should have read it more thoroughly before voting to reopen.
 
"we don't know how it's called" ok, that could be the missing detail
 
7:20 PM
The last Meta consensus I remember on the situation was "if a question is close-worthy and gets closed for the wrong reasons, it's not necessary/worth it usually to reopen it just to close it again". However, that doesn't preclude reopening if you want to reopen due to it being closed for a reason that is no longer valid.
 
@RyanM What is the link to this question?
 
In other words, if a question was closed as unclear due to being in Spanish, and then it is translated, I don't see a problem with people reopening it, even if a SME might say "there are still problems with it" afterward. Of course, if the SME speaks up before it is reopened and then people still reopen it... that's a bit different
 
I am sorry for causing all this confusion. I should have cast my reopen vote and moved on. I shouldn't be asking here and leave it for the reopen review.
 
I kind of lean toward TylerH's view here, although I'm not firm on it
 
7:24 PM
I agree with you. A method without an actual MRE is not a very good starting point at all. I flag those myself.. It cannot be on the answerers to figure out how methods are being called.
For me.. a MRE is something that I can copy'n'paste and then run/compile and get exactly as they say.
 
For me.. a MRE is a survival tool, in more ways than one.
 
A MRE is something I keep in my backpack for the moment I'm starving in a forest and waiting for somebody to notice.
 
I suppose this question should be closed as well? stackoverflow.com/q/41420466/1839439
 
@Dharman Unless somebody wants to transcribe that error message...
 
@Dharman I think this is a healthy conversation. It brings out all the different ways of seeing it.
 
7:29 PM
@Dharman ugh...bad canonicals make me sad.
 
Transcribing error messages is not allowed. Too error prone.
 
@Dharman no worries; always good to have a healthy discussion on processes :-)
 
Although I do suppose that's more of an argument against code images than against error message images; anyone want to raise a question about the latter?
 
+1 on caused a good conversation. FWIW I think the question (now re-closed) is in a better state, due to now having a second shot at reopen queue after a chance to fix for real.
 
@JohnDvorak Reproduce it then.
 
7:30 PM
That never made any sense to me. Just don't screw it up.
 
@NathanOliver I'm sorry. I was lazy. I meant a "minimal reproducible example" ;)
 
It does make sense for code
 
Transcribing errors is much less error-prone than transcribing code
 
It makes sense to require the asker to do it, since they're the one most motivated to get an answer.
 
@JohnDvorak I'm not sure about this; have a source?
I agree with Cody; there's not much issue considering you can just look at the history and compare the text to what's in the image
 
7:31 PM
If a question needs pictures so it can be answered, I close them as "needs more debugging details".
Not everyone can read text in images.
 
It's a quote of a meta post, but the link is broken.
 
@JohannesKuhn Yes, definitely. The only question is what to do in the case of a highly-upvoted and clearly useful Q&A like this one. The rules say that would need to be closed. And, it does. So, I'm happy to do that, but I think it would be better in these cases just to transcribe the image so we can leave it open.
 
I once took a picture of code, and added freehand circles to it, to show where the errors are. Didn't get much upvotes.
 
You failed to post it on Meta
 
@CodyGray Best option in this case would be to reproduce the error and use that information then. But yeah.
 
7:33 PM
@TylerH It doesn't make sense to seach for documentation and look at the revision history if nothing is found.
I do not think I would ever do that, if I was searching a particular error. That wouldn't even occur to me.
 
No, of course not.
That wasn't really what I was saying, and I don't think that's what Tyler meant, either.
He's only saying that it would be possible to prove that a mistake was/was not made using the revision history.
 
Right.. and then what?
 
Ahh, found my freehand-arrows: stackoverflow.com/revisions/51110704/1
 
@JohannesKuhn Yeah, that question should not be answered IMHO
 
As a possible argument against transcribing errors...say I'm getting this error trying to parse an integer in Kotlin JS and I don't understand, because I have a string of numbers and I properly called toInt() on it. How would you transcribe this? My question is why this is an invalid number format
 
7:38 PM
@JohannesKuhn Haha. But still, no.
 
@JohannesKuhn I put a comment in the code, like // <-- here blah..
 
Yeah, was really fed up with images of code at that point. So much that I drew freehand arrows with paint into the next question that posted an image of code. To show why it is not freaking useful.
 
@JohannesKuhn is that a screenshot of notepad?
 
No one is going to beat James McNellis's troll on images of code. Especially since it was done on the appropriate day.
 
@CodyGray That post is really something else.. It's absolutely awesome :) My favorite answer on that is the one by Benoit with the score of 320
 
7:43 PM
@CodyGray audible laughter was produced upon reading the output received
 
Nice. Did not know that.
> cl : Command line warning D9024 : unrecognized source file type 'helloworld.png', object file assumed
Ok...
 
10/10 for the answer citing the relevant portion of the spec. beautiful.
 
There was much complaining at the time about Sven's answer locking up people's browsers.
@RyanM That's the kind of quality answers you expect in the C++ tag. Note the author. You can't tell if it was an attempt to play along, or another day of serious answers.
 
@CodyGray 2011 browsers weren't quite so good at GIF rendering?
 
I don't know. I think it was just Chrome. Would you be surprised to hear that it had memory leaks?
> wow, this GIF pegs one of my CPUs at 100%, any chance you could add another 3 of them here so that I could use it as a burn-in test for my new quad core system? ;-) – willjcroz Apr 1 '11 at 8:53
 
7:47 PM
Haha
 
quad core is so 2011
 
(Mods heavily deleted comments on that Q&A. I reviewed all of them a while back and undeleted the ones I thought were somewhat interesting.)
 
@CodyGray the C++ tag is fascinating, I almost want to learn C++ so I can answer questions there by citing specs and get rep that way. No one ever asks Android questions where I can cite the JLS.
 
> @will: It just consumes GiBs of RAM here while doing nothing to the CPU. – Joey Apr 1 '11 at 10:52
@RyanM What's stopping you from citing it? Plenty of C++ askers don't want or expect to have the language spec cited back to them. (It got to be common enough that the tag was created, for askers to specifically request it.)
 
@RyanM Come, join us. Soon you'll be able to write answers like this: stackoverflow.com/questions/45469214/…
 
7:48 PM
I stumble across a lot of C++ stuff when looking for suspicious voting patterns. I've concluded that people in that tag really like the upvote arrow.
 
The curmudgeons in also inspire me to want to learn.
 
It can be quite crazy
 
@RyanM Huh. I've come to the opposite conclusion: people in that tag really like the downvote arrow.
 
The C++ folk is an interesting one. I didn't last an hour in their chatroom - I flagged an obvious spam and got kicked out for it.
 
@Scratte And then you fix it
 
7:50 PM
@JohnDvorak Afaik, 10kers can't see who flagged what.
 
Yeah, only mods know who chat flagged
 
@JohnDvorak Spam in the chat room? That's odd. Do you mean it was something you found offensive? The C++ chat room has a slightly unique culture.
 
OK, offensive
apologies for my inaccuracy
 
From my experience, answers that cite the JLS (Java Language Specification) get a few upvotes.
 
@CodyGray A recent example: stackoverflow.com/q/62928396/208273. Q+23, A+14 in 13 hours is unheard of in [android] unless someone pushes a bad update or a major service has an outage.
 
7:51 PM
Well, in that case, if everybody knows that those messages don't get flagged, and they see that someone flagged it, they probably kicked anyone suspect.
 
Yeah, the culture has been discussed many times before. I'm one of those who say that the problem is created by people unfamiliar with a chat room going into it and flagging stuff they see.
 
Yeah, room 17 also has a tendency to 'blame everything on the new guy' when stuff starts getting flagged
 
@RyanM Point me to a similar quality Q&A on the Android tag, and then we can talk.
 
@TylerH they also hate grammar corrections
 
@JohnDvorak Which is funny considering the cult like following of specifications.
 
7:54 PM
@JohnDvorak I guess I wouldn't be welcome in the chat, either.
 
I don't think one can kick a mod though :D
 
@TylerH :) I would probably just add it to my uBlocker for wasting my time :)
 
@RyanM Actually, I think what it proves is that (as I've said before), the C++ tag (not necessarily chat room; that's a different issue) is a very healthy community, with lots of voting, lots of curation, lots of high-quality Q&A. Its a model for others to emulate.
 
@JohnDvorak @TylerH can we test that? :D FOR SCIENCE!
 
@JohnDvorak If anyone would have tried, it's Lounge<C++>...
 
7:57 PM
@Braiam Doesn't even give you the option
 
Honestly, I get more reputation by answering in a low volume tag like [tag:tcl] than from my answers in [tag:java].
I'm doing something wrong.
 
Hmm. Curiously, it looks like I can ignore other mods.
 
I was mistaken. The option shift threw me
 
Speaking of, did you try holding down Option+Shift?
 
But kick-mute is the last option. Missing on mods
 
8:00 PM
It appears that you can in fact ignore mods. Now how do you find a half-sized pair of glasses among a bunch of faces and assorted fauna?
...quarter sized
 
Where's Waldo Cody?
 
@JohnDvorak No we can't kick mods.
 
makes a note of this helpful new information
 
@CodyGray I think it can be summed up in this axiom: The further away you get from web-based languages, the higher quality the community gets.
 
@TylerH I suspect that's probably true.
 
8:03 PM
Let's make use of it and send Cody flagging stuff in the Lounge :D
 
JS, PHP, HTML/CSS are the biggest trash fires on the site.
 
But is it just the community here on SO, or is it the overall quality of those communities?
 
@Machavity Wait..?!? It's not possible to kick a moderator from chat?
 
overall quality of those communities I suspect.
they have the lowest barrier to entry
 
@TylerH I feel that the ordering should be PHP, , , , , , JS, , , , HTML, , , , CSS
 
8:04 PM
@Scratte Correct
well, moderators can kick other moderators...
 
Y'all forgot Android in the trash fires. Or did that get resolved in the past 5-ish years?
 
but ROs cannot kick mods
I'd probably rate Android in 5th place behind those other 4
 
@TylerH I don't think so
I don't see the option to kick mods anywhere
 
It has a slightly higher barrier to entry, but is very popular
@CodyGray oh, interesting
 
@TylerH But.. can moderators kick room owners?
 
8:05 PM
I seem to recall Boltclock mentioning it was possible several years ago
@Scratte of course
 
It is a cosmetic hiding the option or enforced in the backend?
 
@Braiam Yeah, that's the part I don't know.
 
@CodyGray which is, in fact, the chief reason TL became the mess that started the mess.
 
@Scratte They can probably kick other moderators, just as ROs can kick other ROs
 
@Braiam it's backend-based considering it would be an action that would have to apply to another user's browser
 
8:06 PM
I don't see the option to kick Catija from the election room.
 
What about Jon?
 
@CodyGray Catija is a CM so may have additional protections
 
Doubtful
 
I can't imagine the company would want to give mods the ability to make their life that miserable
 
Ah, didn't think there were any other mods. No, I can't do anything about Jon making a mess on the floor, either.
I can ignore him, at least.
 
8:07 PM
Interesting
 
(I think ignoring is a major misfeature.)
 
@Machavity Hmm.. I'll need to try it next time a moderator that is also a room owner enters a room where I can kick users.
 
I think it's great. Though as a RO I don't get to employ it as much as I'd like
 
I don't see burying your head in the sand as a good overall strategy. If someone is creating a problem, that problem needs to be dealt with.
 
Which reminds me, I started a userscript to hide all comments on Main/Meta of a certain user a while back... I should finish that
@CodyGray the problem is when someone is creating a problem for or annoying you in a way that is not against room or site/network rules
 
8:09 PM
@TylerH Shouldn't annoying other users be against room or site rules?
If it's not, you may need to just get over it...
 
@CodyGray ignoring someone is the best way to get over it
because you don't even have to see their messages
I can't count the number of people I ignored over the years in HTML/CSS or JS chat who act in an annoying/immature manner or ask overly basic or off-topic questions again and again
 
Or if you just want a quiet day, you can ignore everyone in the room :)
 
Ignoring users is a time-honored method for solving the Eternal September problem
 
@TylerH But...aren't those people annoying other users in the chat room, too? You ignoring them is therefore selfishly solving the problem only for you, keeping the mess for everyone else.
It's like if someone ralphs on the floor. You can hold your nose and step over it, deftly avoiding the problem, but then it's still there to bother everyone else.
 
@CodyGray Not necessarily. What's annoying to one person is not always annoying to others.
In many cases, sure, everyone agrees it's annoying and it's pointed out as against the rules or whatever
In other cases though, people just have different personalities/preferences.
 
8:13 PM
So what about if someone replies to them because they do not share your feeling of annoyance. Aren't their replies annoying to? Since you do not know what they are replying to?
 
@Scratte It's possible, but usually not. Usually if the person doing the replying is not also ignored, then their mannerisms are not annoying to me
 
haha
I had no self control. I had to go see who you were ignoring.
 
Man, they even let you guys see who we ignore. Thought police.
 
Worse, @Ian. We can change it.
 
@TylerH I support your user script approach
Break out the HoodlumApe, or whatever.
 
8:17 PM
@Cody that's not as bad as the top Ian's wearing though is it :p
 
@CodyGray And then ban them for adding a mod to the ignore list?
 
I don't think I have any mods on ignore, thankfully...
 
Haha
 
You might, depending on how things go
 
@JohannesKuhn mods get ignored enough without being on an ignore list :p
 
8:19 PM
It's not like mods are ignored anyway /s
 
@TylerH You know who to vote for to clean it up...
 
A vote for Dharman is a vote for destruction.
 
@Dharman Are you the PHP firefighter? You should change your user name.
 
I should take an other look on again.
 
@CodyGray to be (slightly) transparent, the person I want to ignore on Main/Meta is not someone I'm currently ignoring in chat, lest you think it is a particular chat-ignored person.
 
8:20 PM
@TylerH I wasn't making any assumptions about that.
 
Yeah, I don't post enough on Meta to need to be ignored there.
 
I don't think that person participates in chat
 
It was more when you said "their mannerisms are not annoying to me"
 
ah
 
So I wanted to go see whose mannerisms are annoying to you. :-)
 
8:21 PM
Do users get notifications when a bounty has been offered on their question?
 
I don't necessarily disagree. I was only the tiniest bit surprised by one of them, and only because I have in the past confused you with that person.
 
@CodyGray I agree. The Android curators are too busy picking weeds to really nurture the truly excellent content.
 
@AnnZen Yes, I'm pretty sure.
 
Yeah, is still that old dumpserfire as it has always been.
 
@CodyGray hahaha
 
8:22 PM
@10Rep Here's a bounty you can score :)
 
I gave up on answering a few weeks ago :D. But seems strange the bounty hasn't been awarded
 
I fixed it.
 
@AnnZen Aaaand..... Closed!
 
someone really gave an 'answers are outdated' bounty for a question 2 days old?
 
@AnnZen I didn't get one from you, recently.
 
8:25 PM
@TylerH In the comment, they said they wanted to reward the most "practical" one.
 
I don't understand how the answers are outdated. They seem fine to me.
 
Can't you immediately award a bounty when choosing the "award existing answer" option?
 
Nope
All bounties enforce a delay
 
Lame
 
It makes sense... What if someone else posts a better answer?
 
8:26 PM
@CodyGray What happens to the 300 rep?
 
Interestingly, can't find an inbox message for a bounty placed on my question, although it was me that did it. There is a message about it expiring.
 
I believe the concept is also that you are also showcasing the award-worthy answer.
 
Refunded
 
Well, then you better give a bounty to that one, too, I suppose
 
I feel bounties always lead to bad answers.
 
8:27 PM
@RyanM I'm not sure it wouldn't be better to let the question get the same attention as an active bounty while still immediately awarding the answer you intended to award in the first place
 
People are always rushing to give answers, thinking they can always delete it.
 
New user on the site: Ohh, here I can get a quick buck. Worth a shot.
 
@10Rep that's typically the opposite of what happens
 
@TylerH That...is a very good point.
 
bad answers usually don't win bounties
considering there's already criteria that answers have to meet to be eligible for bounties
 
8:28 PM
What if you ignore someone that @-pings you?
 
@Scratte in chat? you don't get the ping
 
I posted a bounty on a question and I was really worried the OP was going to accept a really crappy answer and that it was automatically going to awarded
 
@TylerH Let me give you an example. stackoverflow.com/q/62269892/12708583. The lower answer had two upvotes, and would have won half the bounty.
 
not sure if it shows up in your "replies" tab on your profile though
 
@TylerH Thanks. That's convenient :)
 
8:29 PM
Thankfully they didn't accept it and it just disappeared into the void
 
@10Rep the lower answer only has one upvote
 
Usually the issue is that bounties are placed on bad questions, and then they can't be closed.
 
also existing answers require some additional activity to qualify for a new bounty IIRC
there are a fair amount of rules around bounty awarding
 
Questions like those make me want to make it to 20k
 
@Scratte Don't miss the earlier discussion about it being impossible to ignore mods. :-p
 
8:33 PM
@CodyGray well, what if I just disconnect from the internet to ignore you? MUHAHAHHAA
 
@Braiam I'll be here when you get back :-)
 
Also, Jon disclosed earlier that the mod tool suite includes access to your computer's camera.
 
Yeah, and Sam's got a userscript that turns off the green light next to the camera.
 
@TylerH If you award the bounty, then most of the people who are looking at the question because of the bounty have no reason to look at it. Continuing to advertise it after the bounty is awarded would be disingenuous. While you may be intending to award it to a particular answer, it's at least physically possible for someone to post a new "perfect" answer and be awarded the bounty instead.
 
@CodyGray whew, good thing the light on my camera is blue...
 
8:36 PM
I wish we had someone to double-check our answers. I posted one just now, but am not 100% sure it is the best answer. I tested it locally to see it works at least.
 
@Dharman You at least are doing the minimum
I posted an answer once that didn't test, got 7 upvotes in like 3 minutes.
 
@Dharman You do: everyone else who looks at the Q&A. This is why downvotes are great.
 
The downvote button checks your answer, no?
 
BTW, the answer didn't work.
 
Someone should write a Meta post about how to encourage more downvoting...
 
8:37 PM
@CodyGray More voting in general.
 
@CodyGray Yeah, but in PHP there's very little people who actually can do PHP properly.
 
Someone should run on a moderator platform of more downvoting.
 
I think I could count experts on fingers of one hand... ok maybe a little more
 
@IanCampbell I've been running so long I've run out of platform :-(
 
@CodyGray I didn't miss that. But I can fix it with a user script ;)
 
8:39 PM
Encourage downvoting: Give +1 Rep for doing so instead of -1.
 
Here's a problem: the Q&A was lost in the flood of low-quality questions by the time I wrote an answer.
 
Didn't we feature it?
 
I will be lucky if someone visits it again to see my answer and read it.
 
It got plenty of answers...
 
Answering is not fun. I will go look for some posts to close. That is much more entertaining
2
 
8:42 PM
@Scratte but the chat user interface is very confusing about this
 
Assuming I've got the right post, that's a quality answer to a broad question.
 
@Scratte Oh, then maybe you actually can ignore mods.
Again, you can protest a suspension by contacting the team, as I mentioned. Discussion about this is out of scope for SOCVR.
 
@Scratte Weird... I did not see that earlier when I checked
and I checked both inline chat messages and the "who is in this room" section
@Makyen true; would be a good candidate for an A/B test if SO employees are ever bored...
 
@TylerH Maybe it only works on the ones you're not already ignoring :D
 
@Scratte luckily Cody can check for himself if I were ignoring him :-P
 
8:58 PM
@TylerH Previously it had two upvotes.
 

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