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00:00
I kind of understand what Machavity means, but I don't think I agree. My NAA flags have been edited properly by users when I didn't know how.
NAA can definitely be fixed by heroic edits
Well, yeah, but then you have to retract your flag. Which is where GenericBot in SOBotics comes in and saves you from decline
@IanCampbell As it happens.. I'd rather keep tabs on my flags, and make sure that the post that is edited doesn't get killed by auto-handling in the queue. I will certainly reply to a comment from the LQP queue if I notice a comment from the queue, if the post is OK. It's happened several times.
^ Username there is very dodgy.
@Machavity Not if you do it from inside the LQP queue.
00:03
@Scratte Manual audits: Flag good answers as NAA and watch if anyone presses Rec. Del. When they do raise a mod-flag
@Scratte Aha. That Sawyer.
@Dharman Heh.. with my luck I will have raised it just before a moderator decides to empty the queue :D
@Machavity What makes the bot "generic"?
@Dharman :-)
@CodyGray It looks like rene's cousin?
I am staring at this old question trying to figure out if it has any value. The problem is that the code in question looks correct to me as opposed to the code in both answers. stackoverflow.com/q/6464360/1839439
00:15
@Dharman No, SpamRam and SmokeDetector are two different things. Please see the blog post CodyGray linked.
I didn't say they are the same thing. I said SpamRam is a bot developed by SE to detect spam
My wording could have been more clearer though.
@Dharman np. Your intent wasn't clear to me, at least how I read it when going through the transcript.
@Dharman It's not a bot, really. It is very much unlike SmokeDetector in that it doesn't use any heuristics about the post to detect spam.
@AnnZen Huh, so they are. I even edited both of them
00:22
Got an auto-flag about that.
This is a bit sad. I just flagged all of the posts (3) of a user for NAA or needs details.
The answers don't even make sense. There's no Ctrl+Z in Git.
I think they meant in the code editor
@Dharman Do you think duplicate answers are fine?
No. Duplicates should be flagged and removed
00:25
(BTW, the answers came almost consecutively in the review queue.)
@AnnZen Heh. I flagged somebody that had left the same answer on at least 5 questions, but that one's still pending.
@AnnZen Late Answers?
@Scratte yes
@Andreas interesting.
@AnnZen That's normal.. they usually leave the answers in quick succession, so they'll appear close in the queue. I used to check the user and before I became a chicken-flagger, I'd flag one of the post with a custom flag and link to all other identical or very similar answers.
@AnnZen Worst is that they all must've passed through the Late Answers queue.
00:31
@Andreas That is sad, but I do not think you can raise a flag about that. I tried once when a user had "No actions needed" on 3 identical answers in less than 2 minutes, but I do not think anything came of it.
@Scratte If somebody reviews incorrectly, that is a reason for a review ban. Something should've come from it.
@Andreas I agree, but it didn't. I saw the user reviewing the day after.. and the next.. and the next.. this message is going to be very long if I keep this up :D
@Scratte Strange. You didn't check the flag status? "Helpful"? I've come across terrible reviewing too: This is bad enough that it's worth flagging to have a mod look over the review and consider taking some action.
sigh another failed audit where there's a wall of code, and i chose to close as needs debugging details.
00:40
@Andreas Trust me.. I notice when a flag of mine is declined or disputed :) I even notice when they age away :)
@AnnZen this is not a wall of code. 300+ lines of code with no direction of where to look is a wall of code. This question has just enough code, and points to specific parts of the code (overflow and underflow) to direct readers to the right parts of the code.
That was a good audit, and should have received a Leave Open.
@Scratte I have far too many aged away flags. Very annoying.
@Andreas Ahhh... but do you have any aged away spam or R/A flags? :)
@Andreas I check up on them. I'll even check to see if Roomba gets them.
@RyanM Yeah, that's... a very good question. Thanks for digging that out and checking. As always, if you don't know C++ and don't feel confident judging whether something is an MCVE, just "Skip".
00:43
@Makyen No, I'm pretty sure all of those got handled rather quickly.
@Scratte Yeah, me too.
@Andreas That's good to hear. It's unfortunate when they age away.
I guess I'm just allergic to Triage reviews. There's no filter for it.
@Makyen Yeah; I regularly reflag them when the cooldown has ended. Two aged away flags on the same post... is especially not fun. Anyway; cv-plsing them here worked. :)
@Makyen Depends on your goals. If you are trying to pump up your flag numbers, "aged away" doesn't count against you, so it might actually be good, because you can just keep re-flagging.
@Andreas Heh.. I do that too. Unless Roomba takes them :)
00:46
@AnnZen You’re not the only one. False-positive failed audits are a big problem.
(assuming that’s what you’re alluding to)
@Scratte I should probably get myself a userscript management plugin for keeping track of the Roomba.
@CodyGray I ... actually don't remember if you can reflag red-flags that have aged away.
@Andreas whistles
@Andreas That takes less than 5 minutes. I installed TamperMonkey :)
@Scratte I'm not fond of plugins. :) I like the bare minimum. :P
@Makyen Hmmm... this might not have communicated... I wrote the userscript most of us use for that purpose. So, this was me not tooting my own horn.
00:51
Oh – and I don't use Chromium browsers, so TamperMonkey isn't an option. ;)
@Andreas Ahhh... Tampermonkey works in most browsers.
@Andreas Is your browser not listed here?
@Makyen Safari and Firefox too? I actually started writing my own userscript manager extension for Safari, but, it was just a side-side-project, and had to give way for more important work.
@Andreas You will like the user scripts that are used here.. :) And worst case, you just remove it, if you don't like it :)
@Makyen Okay, then.
Gonna upgrade from Vulkan to OpenGL later, then. ;)
..so then you just need to get Makyen's Roomba Forecaster
Which reminds me that I should poke Makyen about the dialogs and a little blue box ;)
00:56
@Scratte Of course.
@Makyen If you can't, that's an even worse bug than the fact that they age away at all.
There is a way to test this, you know..
There's not. Some other mod would handle the flag.
Is there no way to communicate to not handle it?
You mean, you expect them to read and follow instructions? You must be new here.
00:59
@CodyGray Prior to typing that, I went through all of my aged away red-flags. All of the posts are now deleted, so I can not re-verify. I have not yet looked on all sites to see if I re-flaged any of them.
@CodyGray I do not expect that from new users.. but seasoned ones that write meta posts about how the site works.. no, you're right ;)
@Makyen I've only used 3 R/A flags. One of them got disputed because somebody edited the question I flagged.
Disputed is a good outcome :)
@Andreas The "someone" was a moderator, who was handling your flag, because you should just edit out the language yourself when the post is otherwise salvageable, instead of raising a flag.
@Andreas Yeah, unfortunately, that happens. I'm sure I have a few declined for that reason. I'd have to go through my declines to see how many. I definitely have some disputed for that reason too.
01:02
@CodyGray Yeah, I saw that. The question is still alive.
Maybe that question should just be nuked. Asked 4 years ago. No activity in almost 3 years. No answer.
I see a surprising number of R/A flags on questions where I cannot puzzle out any possible explanation for the flag. I don’t know what causes this.
@CodyGray Do you check the edit history? Maybe it's the comment section? I have a declined R/A flag from my first days on SO; rightfully declined.
I felt that the person I flagged was being hostile and unfriendly towards me, but when I saw the flag had been declined, I attempted to see it from another perspective, and I figured out I'd been wrong. I just wanted to help somebody, then another person came along with a downvote, and several reasons why, stating that my answer was just bad, and plain wrong.
I really disliked their "tone", as I perceived it.
Seriously; my answer should've been flagged with "lacks minimal understanding".
@Andreas I always check the edits when dealing with R/A flags for which I don’t immediately see the cause. I also check comments, too, after seeing that failure/misunderstanding mode once or twice. I even decline for a custom reason in that case.
But too often (at least 1/4 of the time), I cant find any reason or basis for the flag, no matter where I look.
I don't think I've ever had any question closed as a duplicate, but I've made some bad ones in my early days of programming. Downvotes were never fun. I should've just gotten some of them closed with "lacks minimal understanding". Instead, I started questioning my own personality and social abilities. At least I knew my understanding was limited, so if somebody just flagged my content with "lacks minimal understanding", I'd just accept that fact.
@CodyGray It's likely because of cultural differences, and that the flagger failed to see the correct perspective, or failed to assume good faith, as I did.
Also; somebody may have flagged "give me the code" as R/A, because, ehm, we're quite a few that actually find that rude.
01:21
@Andreas That isn’t an answer flag...
@CodyGray I know, but it would've certainly given me the exact information I needed.
@Andreas You mean literally using that phrase? Because asking for code isn’t rude. It’s what the vast majority of questions here are doing.
@Andreas Ah, what you needed was a downvote!
@CodyGray No, I mean those that just dump their homework on us, just ask us to do their exam tasks for them, or directly or indirectly ask/demand us to write an app for them.
@CodyGray I got that, but I would've wanted an LMU flag too.
LMU ?
@Shree Lacks minimal understanding
01:26
Ohhh thanks.
I kinda fancy slapping -100 to everyone who dumps us a requirement list with no apparent effort to even read their question
Requirement list?
I think the LMU flag would've done good to all the people that post bad questions, unworthy of a flag (as of today), but highly worthy of downvotes.
But then again, those kind of folks don't usually have a 100 to slap them with
@AnnZen Why does that need to be deleted? Is it not useful as a sign post?
01:28
@AnnZen Why is the fact that it's a duplicate with no answers a reason to delete it? Not having any answers is the ideal for a duplicate.
@JohnDvorak Not sure if that would've been great or just sad.
I would've really scratched my head if a 500+ user just dumped us a requirement list.
@AnnZen Homework/exam task requirements, etc.
@Andreas You mean dump in this room?
I wouldn't be too surprised to see one from a 300er
@AnnZen No; in a question on the main site
Even at 300, that would surprise me. Would make me look for a voting ring.
If they ever tried it in this room, they'd be goned in a jiffy.
01:35
Well; we have those that at least probably did try. "PLS HELP FAST" <obvious exam question>.
1000+ reputation...
Speak of the ... one suspected of ring voting, apparently
@Andreas Are you looking for a voting ring yet? ^^
@AnnZen Eh, yes...
and...
@JohnDvorak I don't think there is one. Still looking.
But I recognize their username. I think I've flagged another (now deleted) homework dump of that same user, before.
01:44
How does one even find a voting ring?
Hard, manual labour.
Isn this off-topic? Shouldn't it have been posted on Code Review instead?
Yeah, no; I can't find any voting ring, but I think many of their questions are off-topic.
Anyway; I don't wanna target specific users with massive close-flagging against them.
@Andreas Did you find by searching the key-word homework?
@AnnZen Yes, definitely. Don't only search for questions. Sometimes the word "homework" is only mentioned in an answer.
@AnnZen Homework dumps have popped up on the front page, right in front of my eyes, too.
Eh... A new homework dump, that I don't think any flag fits for; the OP gave the answer a "thanks". Wtf?
02:01
@Andreas: that's not an answer
@HovercraftFullOfEels Yeah, I know.
so perhaps flag it as "not an answer"
Of course.
@HovercraftFullOfEels Was this question edited in the grace period?
@JohannesKuhn: No, it is in its original form. They have code that does calculate the average, but now they are requesting sample code that extracts that code into its own method.
At least that is how I interpret it
02:09
Problem with the code: Why is 5 / 3 == 1 - ohh, no, it's double.
I voted "needs details or clarity" because I have no clue what they're asking
@JohannesKuhn nope, num is a ...yep
num is a double
I left them a comment explaining how to clarify what they're after
Yeah, code looks fine then. No idea what is wrong.
Often you can close them as dupe of how to compare strings, integer division (and probably a few more that I don't recall)
: Select duplicate targets from favorites.
Ordered by number of matching tags.
Yet another user having all their posts flagged.
02:28
Haha, I'm like clicking the "needs details" radio button 10 times and can't figure out why it's not working. Turns out I CVed it from Triage.
@Andreas You can't be sure that was the OP.
@AnnZen Thanks reactions are not anonymous. You can find them in the post timeline.
@IanCampbell Oh.
@Andreas Oh.
 
1 hour later…
03:48
@CodyGray In each of the three times i've been serial downvoted recently, the script seems to have missed at least one. They're going to add up, but my flag was declined.
@AnnZen This was recently discussed here. It depends on how many votes you got with a frame of time
I suspect the problem is that your downvoter is just barely staying under the radar.
@akrun What depends on it?
But it's like -8 to -6 rep every other day. I get more negative rep than that from downvoting posts.
In the amount of time you have spent worrying about it, you could have answered 10 more questions.
@AnnZen let's say you get a downvote every 20 minute, it may not be picked up
03:53
If you look at her rep history, it's pretty remarkable down vote on 3 or 4 different questions in the same minute
@IanCampbell I don't care about the missing rep that much, more my avarage score on posts.
@IanCampbell I also got that same kind of issue with 3 votes in a minute, but on one occasion that was not picked up
But the thing is the voting irregularity script probably doesn't care. And there's not enough of a correlation to be seen by the mod tools, so you just get hit with it.
I agree it's unfair, but I don't think you'll get much sympathy on Meta
@AnnZen if your post is really good, then in the future, it may get more upvotes
Plus, you're more than half way to python gold. You'll get there!
03:58
Thanks.
:49925970 Thanks.
bug ^^^
04:38
@AnnZen The Socratic method doesn't appear to work, so I'll just explain my point of view on this one.
The primary purpose of duplicates is to serve as signposts for finding the duplicate target (dup-target), which is where, ideally, the answers should be. That question had a duplicate-target which was linked to a total of 4 posts.
Only one of those linked posts was closed as a duplicate of it (i.e. only the question you posted the del-pls for was a duplicate of the dup-target), so this duplicate-target has only one duplicate. Pretty much by definition, that's not too many duplicates.
[IMO, the total number of questions closed as duplicates of the dup-target needs to be large in order to get to the point where we should be considering if there are "too many", or "enough" duplicates, unless you do analysis of the relative benefits of each duplicate (lots of work).]
So, the question was a duplicate, which might be good, or bad, but it doesn't appear to be unneeded.
The Roomba has two tasks which will delete duplicate questions with no answers:
RemoveDeadQuestions, which requires the question to be more than 30 days old and have a score < 0. This question was at score==0, so didn't qualify for the RemoveDeadQuestions Roomba task.
The other task is RemoveAbandonedQuestions, which requires the question to be > 365 days old, have a score <= 0, less than 2 comments, and a view count <= the age of the question in days times 1.5.
RemoveAbandonedQuestions is the primary task that is intended to delete duplicate questions which are not considered good. It deletes duplicates which are both not considered good questions in their own right (i.e. score <= 0) and which are not very good duplicates (view count <= the age of the question in days times 1.5; i.e. the questions aren't good signposts to get people to see the dup-target).
With all of 25 views in 2 months, it doesn't look like the question is going to be a good duplicate (i.e. not a good signpost). However, the post had 2 comments, so wouldn't qualify for the RemoveAbandonedQuestions task. Looking at the comments, one was clearly NLN, so we could raise a NLN flag on that comment. Once that comment is deleted, the question would have qualify for the RemoveAbandonedQuestions task in 10 months and been deleted by the Roomba.
So, at that point would have been done with the question and could have forgotten about it. It will either become a good duplicate (i.e. a good signpost), or it will be deleted.
Now, if you really felt the question was actually bad, then you should downvote it ("If you think a post warrants deletion, surely it also warrants a downvote.". OK. You've now indicated that the question is actually bad. Well, once the system knows the question is actually bad (score < 0), the question qualifies for the RemoveDeadQuestions task.
So the Roomba would have deleted the question the next time the RemoveDeadQuestions task is run. That task is run on a weekly basis. So, the question would have been deleted at about 03:00UTC on Saturday (in about 3 days). We are, again, done with the question. The system will clean it up.
To clean up the question, required no delete-votes. It only required getting the question into a state where the system would know that the question is something that should be cleaned up, if it turned out the question should be cleaned up. My personal preference on this would have been just the NLN flag on the one comment. Then the system would deleted the question in 10 months, if the question really turned out to not be a good duplicate (likely).
Given that I've mentioned downvoting and the affect it has on Roomba tasks, I should make it clear: You should not downvote a question and/or answer(s) only to cause the Roomba to delete the question.
But, if a post is bad enough that you would delete-vote it, that almost certainly means it's appropriate to downvote that post, which may result in the post being deleted by the Roomba. Once the question qualifies to be deleted by the Roomba, unless the question needs to be deleted now, because it's causing harm in some way, there's no longer a need to spend a rare an precious delete-vote on the question.
 
2 hours later…
06:48
Oh dear. I think Makyen has won.
(Not the election yet. Just the "type the most text into SOCVR" contest.)
4
@CodyGray Many consider the latter to be the more prestigious award.
@VLAZ Perhaps. But less useful to the site overall, so please go vote for Makyen for moderator. :-)
@ErikA Please don't. I think the person took your advice, and I had to decline the flag. This isn't what moderator flags are for.
@bradbury9 That's because moderators do not police intention or legality. If you believe a question is unsuitable for Stack Overflow, then vote/flag it accordingly (i.e., flag for closure). If you can't find a reason that fits, then it's on topic and should stay open.
@CodyGray Ah, I'm sorry, I thought bringing attention to meta posts that are actionable, can only be done by mods and have consensus was okay
@ErikA +5 is not consensus on a retag or burnination request... Also, they serve no purpose. Mods already look at the Meta questions. We don't need flags for each one of them.
Flags are for things that need immediate intervention by a moderator.
Ah, do you have a better suggestion for these "forgotten" synonym requests? Or just tough luck, didn't get enough attention
Would be nice if we could bounty them, but that's MSE only unfortunately
07:00
The tooling isn't great. Think about what has to happen: you have to convince a moderator to pull a potentially destructive switch. The burden gets about 100 times higher when that moderator is not already a subject-matter expert, and a 1000 times higher when they're not even familiar with the subject matter.
!!/coffee for the house
@rene brews a cup of Cappuccino for @for
For example: I feel comfortable doing Windows or C++ related tag interventions based on my own knowledge. I am familiar with VBA, so would feel comfortable doing that, especially after a bit of background research/refreshing my own knowledge. But if you start asking about something webby? Nah, forget it. I have no idea. I'm more likely to screw it up and have folks come at me with pitchforks.
@SmokeDetector You keep it short love
That's true. Ideally, the community-voted synonym system would work, but it just doesn't...
07:02
decides to keep it brief, since rene is already taking sideways swipes at the long diatribe his experience tells him is surely coming
@ErikA The next ideal situation would be if you had SMEs come weigh in on Meta. Not just by votes, but by posting answers, which could then themselves be voted upon.
It's not, strictly speaking, a retag request, but this recent request has almost exactly the same problems, summarized in my comment.
Not being able to defend it myself, I pull that button at my own peril. If I break something or make a bunch of GAP users angry, all I can say is, "Well, Mike Pierce suggested it!" And...quite frankly, that's not good enough for me. Nor should it be good enough for anyone.
Talking vba, btw, the access-vba tag is ready to be merged, 0 questions tagged access-vba that are not tagged ms-access, if you or another mod feels like pulling the trigger on that.
@ErikA I'd do it, but I'm hesitant to steal Martijn's thunder.
Let the Dutch heritage have it ...
They need it, because their country is being swallowed up by the ocean?
Martijn already left.
@CodyGray we'll start a gofundme shortly to have all his monologues printed in hardcover, limited edition ...
07:12
@rene Perfect.
What ever happened to the Shog9 hardcover?
That ... is a good question
We can make a Trilogy ...
We call it Stack, Super & Fault
07:33
@RyanM You mistook the comment box for the flag box...
Commented, flagged, and sent feedback on MS
You were just... hedging your bets in case that obvious NAA didn't get deleted?
I was attempting to be helpful to a possibly clueless user
so they'd know why it was deleted, although maybe it explains it...
which, it occurs to me, it probably does, doesn't it.
FYI: All deleted posts appear with a link to this little ditty
07:39
huh, so they do.
So, basically, if you're gonna leave a comment, you gotta do betta than dat.
Do you get notified if your answer is deleted for reasons other than the question being deleted?
I have no idea.
@DavidBuck Never actually deleted by reviewers. Only flagged. OP's deletion cancelled the pending NAA flags, and they were able to safely undelete. Had it been deleted by reviewers, an auto-mod flag would have been raised, and we'd have seen it.
that is a very silly "feature"
@RyanM no, you never get notified of that event
07:47
@RyanM Apropos our earlier disjointed conversation, the only honey I've bought in Cali has been at a grocery store (Sprouts, I think). It was all natural and I'm 99% sure it was local, but nothing particularly special. In Texas, I used to buy Round Rock Honey. Redwood City's kind of a drive for me, probably further than I want to go for honey.
@CodyGray Aha. The history said it was deleted by "Vote" - I misunderstood that to mean LQP vote, not OP vote.
@DavidBuck Understandable. Personally, I find the revision history easier to read for things like this. The timeline is really busy and complicated, in my opinion. I mention this not because it really matters in this case, but because it might be relevant later when deciding how/whether to escalate.
@CodyGray Yeah, this is the problem for me. I used to live in the building right next to the market, so it was...pretty easy :-) but now that I live in SF, it's quite a drive, especially if I don't know it's definitely there.
But I've never seen, say, blackberry honey elsewhere
and it's so good
@CodyGray I'm always happy to be better informed
Oh man. Blackberry honey sounds wonderful.
I assume that's just stolen from bees who feed on blackberry pollen? Or do they actually blend it with the fruit?
07:50
Bees who feed on blackberry pollen, yep.
@Makyen Thanks. That is very descriptive of the process, how it's suppose to work and what we should do :)
@DavidBuck That's good, because I'm probably going to keep doing it no matter what you say. :-)
it is, indeed, wonderful
it's a very light, fruity honey. easily my favorite that I've had.
Yeah, most of the time we just get clover and/or wildflower honey
Is this honey heat-treated before it's sold? Because in my opinion it should never be, and I always check the label to see.
07:55
@Scratte It says "raw and unfiltered" so I assume it's not
Yeah, I assume it's not. Most of the good local honeys are not heat treated.
UV-irradiated might be a good idea, but everyone is afraid of that for irrational reasons.
Good :) If you have a sore throat then don't put it in tea, just take a spoon raw :) There was some research done in Sweden that found some special bacteria in raw honey that actively attack other bacteria.
@CodyGray Wouldn't that kill off the natural bacteria in the honey?
@Scratte Is that what you want, though? What's the advantage of eating the Clostridia in the honey? (Hint: none)
@CodyGray Do they die in the stomach or in your throat? :)
Bacillus, Micrococcus and Saccharomyces spp. are readily isolated from honeys. I don't know which of those they concluded was attacking other species.
@Scratte Neither.
08:00
@CodyGray There's some evidence it might help against allergies, or specifically, a modern household with very little bacteria in food might make you more prone to them
@ErikA The evidence regarding allergies is about the pollen, not the bacteria
I honestly didn't catch the details of the research, I just noticed that they had success of treating open wounds with applying it and mentioned that the bacteria comes from the bees.
The inherent antimicrobial activity of honey is primarily due to osmotic effect, peroxide, acidity, and perhaps phytochemical factors. I haven't heard anything about microbial predation.
The open wounds had been treated with all kind of antibiotics previously and the just kept being a problem until they applied honey.
@CodyGray Nope. People have been associating gut microbiome with allergies, and associating gut microbiome with sterilization of food. I don't exactly know what to make of this research, but some people in the lab I work in are convinced
08:03
Osmotic effect comes from the solution being supersaturated with sugars (~84% mixture of glucose and fructose). That leaves you with almost no free water, inhibiting microbial growth (because, like us, microbes require water).
@CodyGray That's what they thought as well, but they isolated the bacteria and tried to grow it.. with little success though, so the end result was: just use the honey :D
People have been associating gut microbiome with practically everything, though, so I'm somewhat sceptical
@ErikA Oh, well, part of that is definitely true. I mean, we know that a lot of the immune system is located in the gut and controlled by the flora. But your interpretation of the research is different from my understanding, so maybe it's changed more recently.
SO Microbiology Reviewers :)
@Scratte It's mostly all good. Bacteria is not going to grow in honey. Where it comes a problem is when you've got certain species of Clostridia. Otherwise, it's almost entirely safe.
@JeanneDark Where? I need to mod that!
08:07
@CodyGray I don't know how this bacteria was able to sustain life in honey, honestly. It was only a 30 min program about the special powers of honey by this Swedish research. My take away was: apply it to wounds that will not heal and have it on a spoon, but don't heat it or drink any water for 30 min after :)
They also mentioned that they could not use any honey from shops in Sweden since that's always heat-treated, so they got it all directly from the farmers.
Bacteria doesn't have to grow to stay alive. There are basically two types of antimicrobial effects: bacteriostatic and bacteriocidal. The first means that the bacteria can't grow/reproduce, but it's still alive (just kind of in a suspended animation state). The latter is where the bacteria actually gets killed.
The thing about bacteriostatic conditions is, if you take the bacteria out of those conditions, it can suddenly start growing again.
@CodyGray Perhaps that is what it does without harming us, but killing off whatever else is there. I do not know :(
Honey: A Biologic Wound Dressing from 2015: "There are 2 types of antibacterial activity. In most honeys the activity is due to hydrogen peroxide, but much of this is inactivated by the enzyme catalase that is present in blood, serum, and wound tissues. In manuka honey, the activity is due to methylglyoxal which is not inactivated."
08:15
Hmm. I was not aware of manuka honey. Apparently, it's produced by Aussie bees who pollinate the manuka bush.
And here I thought Aussies were primarily useful for their userscript-making capabilities.
The abstract goes on to cite the tendency of compounds in honey to stimulate immune response, which is what I personally find most credible/convincing/likely.
That second review is behind a paywall. :-( Death to paywalls.
I tried it on my arm once when I had a bad cut that didn't heal. But I do not know if it helped or not.. it could very well have healed without :)
I have a particularly hard time believing that just rubbing some honey on an exterior wound is going to make a lot of difference to bacteria growing down inside of the wound. Stimulation of immune response makes far more sense to me.
@Scratte Yeah, this sums up everything that is wrong with folk medicine. Someone tries it, and they eventually get better, so they conclude that it "works". This is not evidence.
@CodyGray Whatever the reason, if raw honey stimulates the immune response, then it works, no? :)
We don't actually know that either
@CodyGray I am aware of that. Which is also why I add that I do not know what did it. I have it when I get a sore throat too. I figure it doesn't harm me, the flavour is super, it may help :)
Also.. I feel that I "did something", which has the physiological effect of stressing me less ;)
08:22
Sigh, yeah, I just knew I was going to get foiled by the placebo effect.
The funny thing about that is that it actually works even when one knows about it :D
Because you believe in it...
I like funny things.
That's a two layer action then. I do something because I know that if I believe that it works, then I will feel better about it, despite that I do not know if it works, and I'm aware that it may not work at all, but I'm happy either way?
That makes my head hurt
Maybe I need to rub some honey on it, brb
08:27
Personally I think the placebo effect here isn't so much that I think it works, but that not being able to do anything is stressful. So by doing something that I know isn't harming me, but may have an effect, makes me feel like I did something. Which is less stressful :)
Yes, you are almost certainly going to die of self-induced stress.
Whereas cancer may kill the rest of us, you shall be the master of your own demise. :-)
Let's just hope it's not about declined flags on an Internet site.
Being alive isn't cost free.. it wears on the engine (body). I am no master of time.
@CodyGray That may actually kill me though :D
Unrelated to bees: I've been trying to understand a Question. It grew in size by edit from the poster. The latest edit made me understand what they wanted to do with a small pseudo-code block. However, there's a large chunk of code in the middle that doesn't really serve to make anyone understand what's going on. It's making the post messy and unnecessarily difficult to understand. I've asked them to clean it up. If they do not, what do I do?
@Scratte How do you know that's unrelated to bees?
@Scratte Flag as needs details or clarity?
Anyway, my recommendation would just be to clean it up yourself, removing the unnecessary information, as long as you're confident in the veracity of your edits. Even better if you can edit the question to remove unnecessary information and answer it.
08:36
@CodyGray I don't. It seems to be related to buying and selling stock, so that could be in some way related :)
Flagging is best for situations where you can't fix the problem yourself. It sounds like Scratte is saying the info is in there now, just hard to find because of a bunch of unneeded details.
@CodyGray I cannot do that. It will be rejected in the Suggested edits queue.
@CodyGray But only the OP knows whether they are really unnecessary, ie what they want to achieve at the end
@CodyGray Thanks. That is exactly what I'm saying.
@JeanneDark No.. I know it too and so does anyone else that reads the 20+ comment trails on the post :D
Then leave a comment explaining the problem and leave it to the OP to take action. It's their question, after all
08:38
I did that.. twice :)
@JeanneDark I disagree. Often, a subject matter expert knows even more than the asker which pieces of information are actually relevant.
Step away or raise your reputation to 2000+ :)
I confess I forgot/forget that you don't have full editing privileges. Those solve all manner of problems.
@JeanneDark Good advice.. not biting though ;)
Up until that point, you are effectively considered untrustworthy by the system, so my rationale about a subject matter expert knowing what they're doing doesn't apply to you.
08:41
@CodyGray That is funny in a sense, since I could be making reputation points on SQL questions fairly easy, but when I get to the full editing privilege, pick only Haskell questions to edit.
@Scratte Yes, but by the time you earn enough rep to gain full editing privileges, it's assumed you'll understand the system well enough not to do that.
The assumption has flaws, to be sure.
What else to do? Unless the OP would be quick to approve it, reviewers would most likely reject a suggested edit deleting a bunch of code (in this case the robo approve reviewers might come in handy, though)
@CodyGray I was just about to point that out :)
You can increase your odds by writing a good (read: convincing) edit summary, and increase your odds further by (as I mentioned) having written a good answer to the question. But unfortunately there is no guarantee of your edit being approved.
@JeanneDark It's a shame I cannot pick my reviewers then :D
08:43
Another idea: Go to the respective chat room where other experts are who have higher reputation and can do the edit themselves
@Scratte new FR? "please allow me to pick who reviews my edits"
Ok. But flagging the Question is not a good option, I take it. So leaving it there until such a time that I can edit it, is the best option?
So, there's really little else that you can do but leave a comment. If the information is indeed there, just harder to find than would be ideal, then closing doesn't make sense. Downvoting might, but that's a personal choice. At least with the comment, even if you don't persuade the OP, you might persuade another subject-matter expert with the requisite rep.
@VLAZ There is another feature-request that is valid, that I'd like to be implemented instead :)
Once I saw an OP adding info to the question in an answer, so I went to the respective chat room and they edited it in and the non-answer was removed
08:47
@JeanneDark That is a good result. I had a less then optimal experience in that scenario though. As it happens.. what Cody just wrote happened, which I was not happy about :)
An answer with additional info that should have been edited into the question is flaggable as NAA. Mods even have a button that will convert an answer by the OP into an edit.
@Scratte Why were you not happy about that?!
@CodyGray Because it made me a 5% bad editor in the process. And my suggested edit was way better than the edit in by button option.
How did you arrive at that percentage?
When did editors start getting ranked in terms of badness?
An answer converted by a mod to an edit doesn't even show you as the editor.
@CodyGray I didn't know that back then. I just used this as an example to show that when you can't edit directly, asking the high-rep experts can be helpful
@CodyGray Heh.. I had 21 good edits at the time. That went to 21 good ones and one rejected. That's roughly 5%. It doesn't even say "pre-empted", it says "rejected".
08:52
Ah, rejected by Community because mod powers are stronger than squirrel powers.
@CodyGray Yup.. then I was asked to redo my edit. Which I reluctantly did.. and waited 5 days for it to be approved. That was 5 stressful days.
@Scratte Nothing is a worse experience than suggesting edits
@JeanneDark I stopped editing after that. But there is one thing worse: declined flags :D
@Scratte I'd say it's equally bad
Someone wise did tell me that I could lower by bad-edit-% by suggesting more edits.. but I was very happy with my 100% good ones before the incident. However, I have contemplated creating a sock, just for editing, that I can delete if ever it gets a rejected edit (by overruling, not by good reasons like an actual bad edit).
08:57
Only on SO is that even necessary. Everywhere else, anonymous users can suggest edits.
There is a feature-request to put a proper reason for those kinds of rejected edits though. It's been sitting for almost 6 years :(
That's because the problem goes away when you earn more rep.
How is that helpful?
How is it not helpful when problems solve themselves?
Most users have less than 2K reputation. Solving this for myself by gaining more reputation is just plain selfish.
09:01
Can confirm - I earned 2k rep and never had a rejected edit afterwards.
@VLAZ Try editing some tag wikis ;-)
Although I couple of times I made bad edits and others helpfully rolled them back or edited the post.
There's no point in putting in a 2 reputation incentive and then slapping a "bad editor" mark on users for edits that are not bad.
@CodyGray Never had a rejected edit for those. Nor any edit, for that matter :P
Yeah... I think the reputation gain for suggested edits is a misfeature, actually.
09:04
The reason to not fix it is probably: Users will edit anyway. They'll be unhappy, but it will sort itself out. It's like working on a project where the company policy makes everything hard, but the project is done despite of it because people care to figure out all the workarounds.
The best way to address it is not doing the workaround, until the issue becomes a priority.
@Scratte Like the whole design of SO letting volunteers filter out bad content once it was posted
@JeanneDark That is also really bad, in my opinion. Let users filter in the good stuff instead.
@JeanneDark What exactly do you refer to?
@CodyGray That it's not so obvious what SO strives to be and opens the doors for people wanting others to write their code for them, tutorials for beginners etc.
Oh. Yes. Well, you see, it would be unwelcoming to clearly set expectations up front.
Then, some people would know that their special breed of nonsense is not welcome here.
09:15
@CodyGray Instead they find out afterwards and this can often be witnessed on MSO with an angry rant for a question and long comment chains
@CodyGray This is the center of the problem very well put :)
10:05
@CodyGray Hmm. You just locked me out of commenting on a post that I was about to comment on, saying that it was likely to be locked out. :)
@AdrianMole And now you know that your type of nonsense is not welcome here. :-)
TIL ;-P
It seems problematic on many levels, including POB, too broad, and possibly even off-topic.
@Dharman Not sure, but "low-quality products like WordPress" seems to be. ;)
^ replied to wrong post, but I think you can interpret.

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