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00:00
Awesome. Breakfast is allowed in the abyss at any time.. and so is coffee :)
Let's all just agree that it's my fault for calling them "Late posts"
@IanCampbell I think maybe you just need some coffee too. I'm sure someone can make smokey make some for you :)
..and while we were discussing what to do with the "late post".. it has vanished.
@Scratte Breakfast is allowed, as long as it's waffles.
We can't do waffles yet. RyanM didn't get the waffle-maker.
 
3 hours later…
03:07
@RyanM It has just come to my attention that you do not own a waffle maker. This is a travesty. I suggest that you correct that ASAP during the holiday weekend.
I have a Waring Belgian waffle maker that I absolutely love. It is so easy to use. I don't think I've ever made a waffle that is less than perfection. You definitely want Belgian waffles, because they are so much better.
There are other good brands, too, according to the reviews, but I haven't tried any of them.
It's probably worse that I don't have one...
Why would that be worse?
Because waffles are a central part of SE and I work here. 🤣
The real reason is your criminal deprivation of your husband and children of the deliciousness of freshly-grilled waffles.
@CodyGray I was looking at this one which allegedly has enough settings to make whatever type of waffle...but the point about Belgian waffles is valid...
03:15
They don't give all new hires waffle makers in the onboarding care package? I guess they assume you have them already.
Yeah, these days, I've forgotten about the existence of "other types" of waffles. The only other type I would be interested in is keyboard waffles
"Add to Quote List" is not what I love to see instead of a purchase button...
That waffle maker looks heinously complicated. There's an LCD screen, with an "A Bit More" button. Like, really? Does it connect to your phone, too, and allow you to grill bitmapped patterns into the surface of the waffle?
From the manufacturer... $250 is quite spendy.
@CodyGray Fortunately, Breville has not entered IoT madness. They just have a lot of options.
I mean, it does make waffles. Which is the complaint I always have when its time to pay >$500 for a smart phone.
But still.
@CodyGray Okay, but you've just recommended a manufacturer whose products don't appear to be available for under $350...
03:18
Are they that high? I definitely didn't pay that much.
@CodyGray no. But Shog told me which one to get... I just never did. I haven't had a spot in the kitchen to store it.
@Catija I thought he only made liquor recommendations. I guess I never asked...
He's good for kitchen gear and gardening advice, among other things.
@Catija do you happen to remember off the top of your head?
Actually, something like this is cheap and probably fine.
The beep telling you when they're ready is a critical feature.
03:24
@RyanM no. But I can ask.
Join us on the next episode of Cooking with Shog9!
I'm trying to remember if it was standard or Belgian.
Belgian might be on Season 2.
I have one of those
I also have the single, something like this
03:32
He says the wmk 600 has a bad hinge, so don't get that.
Nice, thanks...I'll have to dig more into this. I probably don't need a double waffle maker, but this is certainly a helpful path to go down
He also has recommended yeast risen waffles in the past.
There also seems to be some association between Waring and Cuisinart, like maybe Cuisinart is now the brand on the Waring consumer models?
@RyanM Hard to say. You think that, until you get a single waffle maker and realize that they disappear pretty darn fast.
Hmm, never done yeast-risen waffles. Sounds intriguing.
I think you're at least partially right about that. The WMK600 was made by Cuisinart, apparently, but that's the one with the crappy hinge.
You can crank out waffles in a single waffle maker pretty fast, though. You just have all the batter and mix-ins prepared up front. Each waffle cooks in 3-5 minutes. What I'll do is put them on a plate stacked up in the microwave or something as they get cooked, and they stay warm enough to serve all at once.
Oven really low?
03:45
Might work, but heating up the oven is pretty costly, energy-wise. I try not to do that unless I actually need it.
Mine has a proofing setting and a dehydration setting, which is nice. Lots of ovens bottom out at 250.
Mine has a warped door (I guess previous occupant of the apartment sat on it or something), so doesn't close correctly (gapes just barely open). It can be used in this state, but it heats everything up and is fairly foolish. Some day I will get around to submitting a maintenance work order. I've only lived in the apartment about 2 years now.
That's too bad. We redid our kitchen about three years ago and I got a new gas oven. Been really happy with it.
See, I love gas cooktops, but my mother has one of those all-glass electric cooktops, and that is just so easy to clean. I am so jealous of that. But you just can't get it with gas.
I almost switched to induction. I hear it's about as good as gas in many cases and has the same easy cleanup.
Most of my cookware is compatible... when buying stuff it's usually pretty easy to opt for ferrous materials.
03:55
Never tried induction.
Seems like it would be limiting, but perhaps not in practice.
If your pans are flat-bottomed, it's fine. But you really need that direct contact. So things like woks aren't an option... though they aren't on electric anyway.
And it's good around little people because the stove surface doesn't get hot.
When I was a kid, I learned not to touch the stove surface by.... touching the stove surface.
I did this despite clear and express warnings, including immediately before I made the decision to touch the stove surface.
When I tell Gus the stove is hot, he tries to blow on it to cool it off, as if it's food.
@RyanM Shog double checked and said he has the wwm1200pc.
Gus is the younger one or the older one?
Not much help since they're both not being made anymore.
@CodyGray little. He's 20 months.
04:07
That's right. Bennett is the older one.
Interestingly, when you Google "wwm1200pc", you get the very similar-looking Cuisinart. And that's only $99.
Yup. :)
Which is about what you'd pay for a used Waring Pro on eBay or elsewhere.
I suspect that the Cuisinart is the consumer-level replacement. It looks similar to me. The only concern might be build quality. But honestly, how hard are you going to be on a waffle maker?
Twisting and flipping all the time seems like it'd put some wear on it?
> The problem with a lot of home waffle makers is that they... Actually don't tolerate heat well. Plastic gets brittle, non-stick surfaces start to stick... That whole "leave it hot while folks sleep" thing gets dicey
He's talking in Discord about it if you wanna ask.
Leave it hot while folks sleep? I've never heard of this.
He preps the batter in the morning, preps the iron and when people start waking up, he starts making waffles.
It's not hot overnight, just for an extended period in the morning.
04:19
Oh, I see
Why not make the batter at night and save it in the refrigerator for the next morning?
Seems much gentler on us like-to-sleep-in types.
... if you're using double-acting baking powder, you lose half your lift.
Waffle and pancake batters that are chemically leavened don't generally benefit from long resting... yeast-leavened... probably fine, though... but likely want to let it sit at room temp for a bit in the morning.
^ there's another similar NAA on the same question
04:43
@Catija Yep. You can compensate (mostly) by leaving the baking powder out until you're actually close to ready to cook, or adding more.
@Makyen Yeah, leaving it until last has the downside of requiring you to mix more, which can leave you with too much gluten development or having it not incorporate well. :( It's not generally that time consuming to pull it together in the morning :D
@Catija Yep. It's all a trade-off. :; You just have to pick the criteria that are most important for the batch you're making. :)
That's kinda why I was intrigued by shog using yeast... because that should be fine overnight.
05:10
I would expect the yeast to give a bit different texture. For baking powder, one of the leavening stages happens as a result of the higher temperatures involved in cooking. That leavening happens quite quickly, relatively speaking. While yeast does give a rise during cooking, it's not nearly as fast.
For waffles, I'd expect it will be necessary to try to develop more gluten, allow the batter to rise more pre-cooking, and put effort into not loosing the additional gas pockets while portioning the batter onto the waffle iron.
05:22
I will advocate for crepes. No backing powder is needed, it's better to make the batter the evening before and they cook in 2 min. Also, no need for a special equipment :)
Sounds good. OTOH, experimenting is fun too. :)
05:42
Yes, I do make waffles, pancakes and french toasts on regular basis (albeit we have breakfast buffet served every morning :) )
Now I really want a waffle iron. Shog was saying that the rising is a lot stronger, pushes the iron open, even... so I'm not actually sure if the outcome would be that different?
The latch keeps it close. I never tried without a waffle machine/maker. Is it same thing as waffle iron?
@Vega I find crepes harder to make precisely because there is no specialized equipment. I'm terrible at flipping them.
Yeah, we were talking about standard waffle makers. They're also called "irons". Either way, the lid latches. (Unless it's faulty. Then the rising action of the yeast may cause it to break and pop open.)
I don't make crepes 'jump' either. I flip them with a long wooden spatula
@Vega Ah yes, my method as well. I'm pretty sure most people do it that way. There are street vendors around here that make them and they just have what is essentially a big stove - a flat surface they pour the mix on. You can't really use that as a frying pan to "flip", so they simply use a spatula again.
06:15
@CodyGray Mine has a springy stuff on the hinges that allows to rise without breaking
Yup, mine, too. And Shog and I have the same one. That's why I was surprised to hear Shog say he's had some hinges come open. I've never tried yeast-rising, though.
@VLAZ I do have a special crepe pan, it's a shallow one, but it's not 'compulsory' to make a good crepes, indeed :)
06:34
@Vega I don't like those pans. They are not very good for anything else. They make flipping easier but I'm not flipping them using the pan, so...yeah - I just use a normal one.
06:57
Start with the right tools for the job. Then wait for skill to be acquired.
is this the Seasoned Advice chat?
Totally applicable to the programming ;)
correct
This answer is (definitely) NAA, but I am suspecting spam stackoverflow.com/a/62707885/5468463
@Vega the affiliation is disclosed ("help us") if that's what you mean. Still NAA, of course.
@Vega I don't think it is spam. Maybe that answer they linked to means the question is really a duplicate.
07:04
@rene Aren't they the the creator and owner of that tool and repo, aren't they?
yeah, I'm blind
blurry
lack of coffee
need to wake up
The code in OPs question is from the linked answer, so I don't think it's a duplicate as that code isn't working for them.
@rene I am selfishly happy, sorry @rene
@rene Have some crepes
@Vega :D
07:05
@RyanM I understand and agree
It's an answer that would make a perfectly fine comment, it seems
I can totally make that happen
Such a useful button to have. It'd make a nice addition to the LQP queue, honestly. "Recommend comment conversion"
It would.
there's a lot in there that aren't useless but aren't answers, either.
07:09
There is sometimes value lost because all the community can do from review is delete. I'd rather some of those be converted to comments.
I use the feature more than most mods, I think, though. A lot of times, regardless of who handles them, they just get deleted.
Agreed 100%. Am I gonna have to write another meta post?
I'm 99.99% sure it's already been proposed.
What I can't say is whether it's on MSE or MSO, nor whether it's [status-crickets] or [status-declined].
Not only has it already been proposed, you have already answered it with why it shouldn't be done.
hahaha
All of that is still true.
I was kind of just thinking about that as we discussed it here.
"Well, the problem would be, many reviewers would use it wrong and just convert crappy answers..."
New proposal: button is added, but just for me, and I'll use it correctly
07:18
@RyanM all you have to do to get the button is get elected...
really though a bit more meta: I think the real problem is the rep requirement for comments. The stated rationale is that it stops new users from leaving terrible comments, but as anyone who's done LQP review knows, that clearly doesn't work: they just post them as answers instead.
🔁 Retweet: "I need this too" ;)
@RyanM Agreed. I would upvote and support that.
@RyanM I also agree and would support that. I recently read the old meta posts about why those limits exist, and it seems to pre-date the fancy spam filter
I thought the rep limit was actually about stopping people creating new accounts and filling the site with spam comments.
07:20
@RyanM Not quite. The stated rationale is: (1) we want to drive new users (those who are unfamiliar with the platform) to the answer box, not to the comment field, because our strict focus on questions and answers is what makes us unique, and (2) comments are a lot harder to moderate, if for no other reason than poorer tools, so we don't want new users to be able to post, e.g., spam in the comments.
@RyanM proposed label on the button: "The Ryan M ™ button"
Clicking the button will always do the right thing, regardless of when and under what circumstances it is clicked
So.. the "RyanM" button can also make me a great answer?
No, it only moderates stuff
But we also need a button that can take a comment and make it into an answer..
07:23
@CodyGray 2) is a pretty meh reason, even if it's true, because that could be fixed at the same time. 1) is a better reason, I'm just curious if the cost is greater than the gain: new users unable to ask for clarification, and more experienced users resigned to clicking the recommend deletion button until the incorrectly posted requests for clarification go away
It's a lot harder to fix than you think
Oh I'm not denying that. It'd be a whoooole bunch of code.
Also moderation load
You want to now have review queues for comments and answers?
I think the reasoning in this meta post is outdated for 2020. At least in the tags I watch, many questions need clarification to answer. How can people expected to get started on this site when they are at a considerable disadvantage?
Congratulations on your nice looking reputation points.. (I have OCD or
something :) But.. I'm not sure I agree. New users know nothing of what's on topic, and they'll answer anything. If they are driven to the Question that do not need clarification first, then maybe they'll get on the right track?
07:28
@Scratte I can assure you this does not stop them from confidently answering unanswerable questions :-)
@RyanM I know. I do not remember if there's a pop-up saying: Please find an answer that doesn't need clarification, as they are more likely to be a good fit for this site. But I'm pretty sure there isn't.
@IanCampbell That's always been the case. These questions that require clarification should not be answered. They should be closed.
New users should not get started by answering unanswerable or otherwise unsuitable questions.
I feel really silly clicking the canned response in LQP that says "Once you have sufficient reputation you will be able to comment on any post"... like that will ever happen.
Especially because they're likely to be closed and/or deleted, which will be even more discouraging for the new users who tried to answer them.
It's not that they're closed and deleted, it's the confusion that one doesn't know why..
07:32
@CodyGray Hmm, that's something I hadn't thought of
That's the crux of the problem: most new users don't understand how this site is supposed to work.
I made the mistake of looking at recent Android questions with answers...oh dear. It's a mess of unlikely guesses, and my personal favorite, an answer that starts with "I don't know..."
@RyanM I stumbled across some of those from LQP. Sometimes I feel like the quality there is like a totally different site.
The quality (or lack thereof) of the [android] tag has long been the butt of jokes around here
@IanCampbell Any with comments from me explaining why they're wrong? :D
Yeah, it's up there with [php] I believe
07:37
@RyanM Doubt it. If there's a comment from you, I can be relatively sure what the correct answer is.
Sometimes I don't know the right answer, but I know what isn't the right answer. An example where I just told several people that their suggestions are wrong: stackoverflow.com/questions/62709577/…
I actually do have a guess, but I need the OP to explain what "doesn't work" means in order to know if I'm right
"This doesn't work".... ah, thanks for the clarification OP
@CodyGray To be honest, I still get confused on what's on topic here..
(likely answer: their compile SDK is set too low, and they need to increase it to at least 28, which won't affect anything other than allowing them to compile against libraries that use newer APIs)
But it reminds me that I need to answer an Question that should be closed. But despite my attempt, it's not.. and it was even re-opened :)
07:41
The best part is when you find a LQP answer and you end up leaving a question with -4 reputation from downvoting the other poor quality answers.
Oops, @RyanM, you have your crystal ball configured incorrectly. Instead of posting here, it's supposed to post comments on the question itself.
@CodyGray I posted three!
oh, about the guess
I guess I didn't guess due to something about not answering questions in comments
Doesn't it have an option to promote comments to answers?
You might need to upgrade your crystal ball to a later model
At least check to see if there's a firmware update available
Ah yes, there's the option. The comment is now posted :-)
Do you remove your comment, if you "RyanM" it into an answer?
07:48
If I were able to confirm that my answer is correct, I'd remove the comment with the guess and also the one about how "this doesn't work" isn't a good description
Why the other one? It's still valid, isn't it?
The information required to confirm that I'm right (or the OP simply confirming that I'm right) would provide enough information to resolve that.
Yeah, normally the guess gets promoted into an answer once confirmed
Ack, @RyanM's Cody-inspired speedy edit caused me to initially give the wrong feedback to MS.
I didn't notice that post had been filled with nonsense, because when I looked at it, it wasn't! :-)
lol!.. I just mentioned on a SQL question that one should tag the RDBMS, which the answerer did. I'm not complaining, but it's kind of funny, because how do they know? It's kind of like: If it isn't then that's too bad. Now it is! :D
@CodyGray re this Q we closed and reopened yesterday I still have no clue what the problem is, but the OP thanked me for helping them solve it. Everybody happy I guess shrug
07:59
@Adriaan You didn't even do anything
@CodyGray exactly :P
Another happy, welcomed new user. Mission accomplished.
Ugh
@tripleee Look at the bottom of the post: it's filled with gibberish. That's rude/abusive flaggable.
well it's salvageable and was in fact already fixed with an edit, but okay, just checking
@CodyGray adding gibberish to an otherwise OK(-ish) post to get around the character limit is abusive?
@Adriaan Great, you can move one person over into the "somewhat more welcome now than last year" column
08:02
Adding gibberish to get around system-imposed restrictions like the character limit is abusive, yes.
@CodyGray so should we flag those, or just clean them up and move on?
Up to you
If you think it's salvageable, then you're welcome to fix them
But I have no patience for people who post gibberish on this site
My concern is always that if I flag someone else will come along and clean it up and then the flag will be declined because the post is no longer rude/abusive.
Yeah, that can happen, but that's true of virtually any type of content that you could flag.
I think there's a bot that can follow edits for you and ping you if it happens.
08:11
@Nick that's why red flags remove any kind of grace period, such that the exact state of the question on the time of flagging is preserved
@Scratte Like this message saying "A tracked post has been edited:..", but I don't know how to make the bot track it for you.
@Scratte IIRC the only way to do that is to install the userscript, the bot doesn't accept commands over chat
but it's been a while so I can't remember which bot or which userscript
I have one called "Stack Exchange Flag Tracker", maybe that's the one?
I suppose this isn't a good time to reiterate my general opposition to flag trackers?
Flags aren't designed to be something you start a relationship with.
I vaguely recall having a script which added "track" on each post next to "edit" and "share", I guess that was a different one?
@CodyGray it's occasionally useful when the OP updates a post you previously flagged as poor quality and they actually improve it; I have found that I very rarely get pinged
@tripleee A VLQ is automatically dismissed by an edit
08:21
and in the majority of cases it's because someone from here fixed formatting problems etc; but like I said, it's rare enough that the FPs are tolerable
@CodyGray yeah but if I also downvoted, I'll want to retract that
@CodyGray It is when you're trying to get the green medal :)
That's all made up
You can give yourself whatever color medal you want
You could even earn the coveted ultraviolet medal
@CodyGray Everything here is made up. Every badge is just for the Tom Sawyering effect.
It's a beautiful fence, though, isn't it?
@CodyGray I'll add it to the script.. at 25000 post flags and a 0.05% accuracy. Dooming myself to giving up on the very hint of a declined flag :D
08:28
You'll need to get a hummingbird to help you confirm
@CodyGray ?!?.. If that's a joke, you need to explain it :)
@Scratte Hummingbirds can see colors that humans can't, particularly up in the ultraviolet range. (I suspect it needed to be explained even if it wasn't a joke.)
@CodyGray Ohh.. I just figured that very-violet would be enough. Not sure my monitor can emit ultraviolet. It if could, I might have had a really nice tan now instead of being pale and gray.
I have a bit of a stupid question about the SQL-tag. I've noticed that they are very difficult to close, like the one I just posted here. How likely am I to get banned if I let them through? Seeing as most of my flags on them ages away and they often hardly even get one close-vote?
08:36
I will ban you myself. ...As soon as they implement a ban for "failure to properly curate".
They have that already. I think they call it a Samuel-ban :)
But I mean if I click on "Looks OK", even if I know it's not, but I also know that it'll never accumulate enough close votes anyway
You tell me: are you able to live with that nagging, sinking feeling of knowing that you did the wrong thing?
Yes.. because I know I am powerless to change it anyway. And I have an intense fear of the declined flag, that does keep me awake at night thinking that if 3 users clicked "Looks OK" in Triage on a post that should be closed, perhaps 3 users will click "Leave Open" in the close vote queue.. I'm so selfish like that ;)
Oh... So all I have to do is convince you that you're powerless to change something?
This opens up a new world of possibilities.
Yes, if you can convince me that I'm powerless to change something, I will stop trying. But keep in mind that I'm a saber tooth squirrel, hence I'm determined to a fault, so.. good luck :)
09:02
@CodyGray re this, given that the OP did write w('i') I think they wanted an array w(1), w(2), w(3) etc, rather than dynamically named variables. That those are bad I fully agree on, that's one of my pet-peeves.
@Adriaan We have a core algorithm at our company, implemented in MATLAB, that does this. It's god-awful.
@CodyGray :'( Makes me cry
Basically, we have dynamically-generated variables "a1" through "aN", and also "b1" through "bN".
Oh, the performance!
@CodyGray Stop talking, please, I'm hugging myself already.
the horror
Does using short variable names make the code run faster?
09:04
Who created the concept of dynamic variable names? Can we find them and throw them in the sarlacc pit?
@AdrianMole That's only in Javascript
Not in basic?
@AdrianMole I doubt it. As I understand MATLAB at least there's an initialisation step which time might depend on variable name length, but we're presumably talking micro seconds here, if not less. After that, there's some kind of under-the-hood identifier which is fast.
Nah, in most implementations, BASIC is tokenized
Hey, microseconds matter!
@CodyGray yea, sure, if you call a loop 1e12 times or something. Just initialising it once, I'd go meh and stick with descriptive names
09:06
I do love descriptive names
I should post that as a formal MATLAB question.
mumbles something about a duplicate
Perhaps not on SO, though: mathworks.com/matlabcentral/answers/…
I had planned to strictly use emojis as variable names. What a bummer..
And then break virtually every text editor and compiler/interpreter ever. Yes, that sounds like a great idea.
@CodyGray that's actually quite interesting, and seems to confirm my thoughts: the initial initialisation is important, and as long as you don't somehow clear the variable you're fine.
09:13
I didn't read it in detail. I'm immediately suspect when people present such microbenchmarks and attempt to draw conclusions from them, as the vast majority of people do not know how to properly microbenchmark (and even for those who do, it's hard).
@CodyGray basically they use a loop to test various variable names and assining methods 10M times, then find a difference of 0.05 vs 50s for various methods
@Adriaan So I guess what that tell is is that there's a Schlemiel the Painter algorithm somewhere in the MATLAB interpreter :-)
As the variable names get longer, it gets further and further away from the paint can.
09:55
Does anyone know why was this undeleted? stackoverflow.com/a/62710800/1839439
@Dharman Not sure, but I voted to delete. I could've resist and rolled back the question that contained the answer. I hope you don't mind
@Dharman maybe ChrisF double clicked on delete ...
@Vega Of course I don't mind. That is the right thing to do.
10:18
:)
11:28
I just realized that flags raised from within the Triage queue is disputed when other users pick "Looks OK". I'm not sure this is good functionality.
@Dharman huh, they came back after 6 months and forgot that the site is in English? Weird.
@Adriaan That's because they have language tag change ;)
@Adriaan Well, it got 5 upboats, I think for the pretty graphics
I think we need more curators or more votes or something. Why are so many posts not getting closed
@Dharman maybe we need less posts?
2
11:55
@VLAZ Less posts is more curators ;)
 
2 hours later…
14:13
Is this one about programming?
@E_net4ofthedownvotebrigade It looks like it
^ but only the very last line: "...in the flutter."
Much of the question seems to be about how to manage a subscription to some in-app-purchase API.
@E_net4ofthedownvotebrigade He has many problems, he doesn't know how to use flutter at all
14:19
@Makyen well, one question was closed but wasn't requested to be closed properly, should the message be moved too?
@Adriaan Red flags don't remove/end the grace period. There are various suggestions on Meta that they should end the grace period, either the first one, or after 2 or 3, but currently that isn't the case. (cc @Nick)
@Braiam It depends. In general, we only move actual requests, or messages that are intended as requests, but don't quite have the correct formatting. If you mean the "Is this one about programming?" question above, then, no, we don't normally move such messages.
Is this question focused and/or on-topic? stackoverflow.com/q/62696431/5468463
yes and yes
14:41
@AdrianMole Not sure if you're interested, but one of the questions you moderated is being discussed on meta.
@Makyen yeah... that'd be nice.
Is there a site on the network where this algorithm question would be ok?
@IanCampbell Thanks for the heads-up ... I'll pop over and have a look.
@AdrianMole Please let us minors know if you had to add to your nGrudges ;)
Can't find the Meta discussion. What's it called?
@Scratte BTW: std::cout << nGrudges << std::endl; --> NaN
14:54
@AdrianMole I don't c, can you do java? :) the << look like shifts :D
Guessing: Console.Writeln(nGrudges); --> Huh? (<< is overloaded for output streams to mean "shift into the output.")
@AdrianMole That's javaScript :) Life is so unfair :D I think it would be System.out.println(nGrudges);
I was once employed as a scribe on Java.
@Scratte Math?
But that kinda question is... dunno. Is there a value?
@Catija Hmm.. I'm inclined to think they would not like it. I would not be conformable recommending they post it there.
14:59
Thing to think about when trying to migrate is, first, regardless of subject, would the type of question fit the format?
@Scratte That question is a solution looking for a problem.
@Catija I did a search to see the practical use for this. I couldn't find it. Personally I find value in knowing that some theory I'm working on has a use in the real world.
Science tends to work from a problem to a solution.
@Scratte It's all in the title :) ... sigh ....
Only if the answer is yes, start looking for a site. :)
15:01
I thought algorithmique questions are on-topic on SO as far are they are well detailed
that ^
@Catija The question is "What's the practical use of this algorithm?" Which I have thought of many times when I was made to do mergesort and quicksort.. and bubblesort.. and.. ;D
@Vega Only when they are "a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development"
@Braiam That is probably not consensus.. :)
@Scratte It's on the help center :D
15:03
@rene it never is. At least give the algorithm and say, this algorithm identifies the color.... what is a situation where this would be useful to know? But that can be a bit of a guessing game at times.
I mean, we are software developers, not mathematicians
@Braiam I thought I was a mathematician.
@Scratte it's the guiding principle of all question asking network wide...
*exclusions apply
I'm magician. I magically make questions close
Sometimes exercises are just for practicing the tools.
15:05
@Catija You really know how to inspire someone that already have a fear of Question-asking :D
So, if you want to teach someone how to solve a relatively simple problem by developing an algorithm, you need a simple problem.
@Scratte Asking questions is hard. I recommend answering. :D
@Catija and answers are often easier to self-delete if things go pear-shaped.
Yeah. Nothing like having your bad question locked in because someone answered it and the answer got upvoted.
That's one of my pet peeves about folks answering poor questions.
Answering... or upvoting those answers...
15:10
Answering. Poor questions should be closed, not answered. And when it's folks with high rep, who should know better ... {rant alert}
That said, other side of things is people getting an answer and then deleting the question.
@rene Ha! I'd like to see those rabbit conjuring people do that every once in a while.
Now we need a magic.SE.
@Catija Can I vote it be called prestidigitation.SE?
@Scratte did you consider if it could fit on Computer Graphics or maybe Game Development? So there obviously is an algorithm (but we don't know its name nor its implementation) that has for sure a math background but if it sees practical use it might be at one of those site I mentioned. I still feel the question is more a I'm curious about this and those are in general not a good fit for the Q/A model. They are great conversation starters on forums.
15:14
@rene Thanks :) I'll try to construct a comment for them :)
@AdrianMole As it happens, I think two such high-rep users just doomed a Question..
Link! Link! Link!
I wonder... if it's something CSE would take.
If the intent of the algorithm is for learning, then an educator may have a good explanation of the value of the algorithm.
@Catija Is that Computer Science?
Computer science educators. There's also a math educators.
15:33
Honestly, I think that if an answer comes in on a question at a time where the question is lacking details or is a mess, then the "cannot invalidate answer" should be exempt.
+1, I've seen at least 1 question improved from a closeable state to a valid state, but that invalidated an answer
I'm starting to think you're being here more than I am @Catija :p
@RyanM I'm slowly going into the old grumpy state of wanting to just downvote all those premature answers.
But this Question will not be closed, since it's in the rogue an un-curated sql-tag ;)
The users in the Android tag have developed the bizarre habit of accepting any answer posted, even if it doesn't help
The question I posted yesterday has now accepted the "just update the library" answer without ever answering what their actual problem was, despite my upvoted suggestion in the comments being far more likely. They did thank everyone in the comments for their suggestions though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@RyanM Note that most askers are first time askers.
15:47
I'm not sure how difficult the concept of "accepted answers should be correct, or at least help with the actual problem" is, but it's also been many years since I've asked a question on SO, so it's possible that the explanations aren't adequate
@RyanM In theory, the accepted answer should be the one that helped OP the most. Might not be the correct one. In practice, it's very frustrating to google some obscure problem and find a question where the accepted answer is clearly not related to the problem at hand.
The problem is that OPs sometimes don't know if an answer is correct or not. There are questions that can be answered easily and the OP just has to copy paste into his code to check if it fixed the problem. Sometimes the question is not answerable like that. And then if someone writes a "sound right" answer, they just accept it, even if it might be wrong
Btw. can someone tell me if this one is already to be considered a typo?
@akuzminykh not yet
16:03
@akuzminykh There's also the (rare) occasion when someone accepts an answer because it did enough to help the asker actually solve the problem when they did a little more with it... but the answer itself wasn't a direct solution...
@akuzminykh Hehehe, once I wrote an answer in awk without testing it, because the logic looked right at first glance, it got several upvotes just for that :D
@akuzminykh That depends. Is it a typo or a misunderstanding. It's not the first time. Last time I saw this, the user had created a class called Byte :) (sorry about the triple-ping)
16:24
Is this rude, or just NAA?
Hah, I was going to post the same. I went with NAA
@Scratte I've actually got not a single ping... do I need to activate that somehow? ^^
@akuzminykh Wasn't there a little green number on your lower left corner by your avatar? To activate the sound, there's a little speaker on the upper right to the left of the "all rooms" buttton.
But you get a ping-sound when someone @-mentions you, and an additional ping-sound every time they edit the message. I'm a messy writer, so there's risk of getting triple-pinged by me :(
@Scratte No, actually no sound but I get the number icon. I thought "ping" is when you get a push message on the main page (INBOX).. then it's all fine.
@akuzminykh You get that too, but only once for every @-mention. It doesn't come until after 5 minutes or something like that, and only if you didn't react, or just dismiss the chat-ping by clicking the green number. I think the inbox would be nightmare if they also came there instantly.
16:38
@AdrianMole I went rude. It's not all the explanations of how "stupid" a language is that I find offensive, it's the fact that it's very clearly not an answer that wastes the time of anybody who reads it. If it was that whole paragraph + "but here is a way to do it", it would have been fine. Even a "try turning it off and on again" post is better because it attempts to address a problem.
@VLAZ Yeah, I guess. If it was useful in or of itself, then editing out the offensive bits would be an option. But why bother in that one?
... and it does show a certain contempt for the other posters in the thread.
That's also true. I don't personally mind but I also recognise it's not very kind. I do draw the line at the post just being entirely unnecessary.
@Makyen grumble grumble
@VLAZ So, "This is not an answer." would get an NAA but "This is not an <expletive deleted> answer." or "This is not an answer, you bunch of red-necked loons." would get R/A.
What's up with editors changing perfectly valid indentation to apply code formatting for backticks fencing?
16:46
@AdrianMole It's more of a combination - it's long, it's not very kind, it's not even attempting to solve any problem, and it's wasting time. I value the last two higher in terms of abusiveness.
@Braiam In answers the backtick fences can enable syntax highlighting; in questions the language is deduced from the primary tag.
@Nick Yeah, it's a pain in the rear for trying to combat spam/R/A, etc. The justification I've seen is that it prevents people abusively removing poster's grace period. IMO, that's not a good justification, as the cure of not having new versions after flags is worse than the problems potentially caused by people flagging to disable the grace period.
Not, what I was grumbling about :p, I was grumbling about the ping... although I do agree with the sentiment that it's a pain in the rear
@AdrianMole That's not how it works.
Is not?
16:48
@AdrianMole The language can be deduced in the question and all answers based on the primary tag, but that deduction may be inaccurate because of multiple language tags, just showing code a different language, or because there isn't any default for some tags, etc.
Language specification can only be done with fences now though, not indented (and HTML commented)
@AdrianMole The only thing that changed vs previously is what Nick said: html hints won't work anymore.
Speaking of... is the formatting help page one of the ones mods can edit? or is fixing that a WIP
@Braiam The switch to CommonMark Markdown made that type of change legit, if and only if the editor is applying a specific language for syntax highlighting. The switch to CommonMark disabled the ability to specify a syntax highlighting language when using the indent method of indicating code format. So, it's not possible to do that without changing to the three backtick style. [Personally, I think disabling the <!-- --> method of syntax highlighting was a bad choice, but it's done.]
@Makyen The thing is that SE didn't re-rendered the html, so the correct hints are still there for Pretiffy to pick them up.
16:53
@Braiam But yeah, suggested edits that only change the space-code-format into fences generally get rejected by me as "no improvement."
@Braiam Yes, that's why I said "if and only if the editor is applying a specific language for syntax highlighting." Maybe I needed to be more explicit and say the implied "if and only if the editor is applying a specific language for syntax highlighting that doesn't already exist for the code in the post."
In other words, unless you are editing a post that used html tags for highlights hints, and you know it will break them, then yes, you may change the indentations for code fencing in addition to the changes you are doing to the post.
BTW, html tags still work with snippets :D
@Braiam Note that if they are making any other change to the post, and the syntax highlighting that is appropriate isn't the default, then the editor must make the change from indents to backticks. In other words, the CommonMark change forces editors to do a lot of work to maintain parity, even when all they really want to do is make a trivial syntax/grammar change.
@Makyen If I'm reading you correctly, you are repeating what I have said, no?
@Braiam Yes, which is one of the reasons I think it's a very poor decision to not have it continue to work everywhere.
16:59
@Makyen Also, meh, not many SO posts use them. Code Golf on the other hand :D
Morning all /o
@Braiam Not quite. You're saying "may". I'm saying must.
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