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11:03 AM
 
@Dharman Maybe the last paragraph/sentence?
 
@Dharman Rude/abusive. Pretty much the whole thing. For example, the first paragraph (minus the first sentence), and the last paragraph.
 
If this was aimed at me, I am not offended
 
@Dharman It was clearly an attack towards your person, wasn't it?
 
I'm not sure if it was aimed at you or at staff, but it really doesn't matter. I have thick enough skin that I'm not offended when people try and attack me, but it doesn't make it constructive or appropriate discourse.
 
11:06 AM
@Dharman Well, I would've been. Quite a pathetic ad hominem, really.
 
Nothing was lost, probably though.
 
No. We don't need yet another answer likening downvotes to physical abuse. Talk about nonsense.
 
It's just yet another answer thinking that downvotes are meant to punish users
 
Keep a Meta question about downvotes visible for long enough, and it will attract an R/A answer. Kinda like Godwin's law.
 
Why do people think that downvotes are meant as a punishment tool? Is it the -2?
 
11:08 AM
@E_net4isnotcute I'm still waiting on the answer comparing downvoters to Nazis.
@Dharman Yeah, I don't know. It makes no sense to me. It's not as if the vote buttons are positioned next to the user card. They're clearly about the post itself.
 
@Dharman If downvotes are not meant to punish users, and they are meant for the post, aren't posts written by users?
 
@CodyGray Wasn't it last week that someone summoned close voters with that?
 
I have spend some time on Imgur and I really don't think anyone over there though downvotes are personal offense.
 
We are beginning to have a big cultural problem in the US with an entire generation of people coming of age that were repeatedly awarded "participation" ribbons when they were children, regardless of their actual accomplishments or achievements.
 
I don't think sellers on Amazon take 1 star reviews personal
 
11:10 AM
@ArdentCoder This logic makes no sense. Almost nothing on earth exists independent of humans, but that doesn't mean that criticism of it is a personal attack. I say and do plenty of things that are incorrect. That doesn't make me an idiot.
@E_net4isnotcute I don't recall that, but I can't really keep up anymore.
 
@CodyGray Of coure that logic doesn't make sense cuz its emotional
 
If you're getting emotional over content rating, then you're doing it wrong.
 
If I post an answer that has a major flaw in it (perish the thought), then would actually want people to downvote it - that way, I can ether delete it or, at least, correct the flaw. Without that feedback, I would be leaving a post online, in public, that could cause real harm to my actual reputation.
 
What did these people do all throughout school? Was it a personal attack when a teacher told them that their answer was wrong?
 
"That movie was a bust" Director: Oy! What did you call me?
 
11:12 AM
Can I get a second opinion on this database Question? Author doesn't agree that their Question isn't on topic and I'm doubting myself now.
 
> Yeah. That's right. Your movie was a bust ... buster.
 
@CodyGray "Yes, because my teacher is evil and gives bad grades for pleasure!"
 
@CodyGray I'm not doing it wrong, I'm just being a living creature who has feelings. Content rating is fine, but making it a big thing by immediate downvotes, closure, rude comments, etc. makes it look like public shaming.
 
@E_net4isnotcute Having previously been the recipient of precisely this criticism, I can assure you that it (almost) never gave me any pleasure to do so. Can't speak to the "evil" part, though.
 
@ArdentCoder I know what, mandatory delay between posting and when it shows to the public!
 
11:13 AM
@ArdentCoder Why wait before downvoting or voting to close? Rude comments is something else, do flag those.
 
@Vega It would be to get the badges with minimal effort. Audits are easier to review, since the result is known. It would be cheating though.
 
@CodyGray Fair enough, maybe you're more of a lawful neutral.
 
@JohnDvorak We already have that. There is a second step called review in the ask wizard
 
@ArdentCoder Hold on there. Rude comments are altogether different, and should not be allowed. That's one of the big purposes/advantages of downvotes: to avoid users having to leave any sort of comments, by just silently ranking content.
@Dharman Nah. More like a question purgatory. Shog9 proposed something like this years ago. I still think it's a fantastic idea. Basically, new questions would start out deleted, and they would need to receive votes in order to be displayed publicly.
 
@CodyGray Downvotes also look like rude comments to some people (especially new users who don't know about the strict nature here), unless they are wise enough to realize what Adrian Mole said.
"If I post an answer that has a major flaw in it (perish the thought), then would actually want people to downvote it - that way, I can ether delete it or, at least, correct the flaw. Without that feedback, I would be leaving a post online, in public, that could cause real harm to my actual reputation." This should be made known to all new users.
 
11:17 AM
@ArdentCoder And that's precisely the logical leap that I do not understand. How could a downvote be rude? There's no way it could be a comment. Furthermore, that's one of the purposes of Dharman's Meta question: how can we fix the UI and/or perception to prevent people from thinking that a downvote is a personal attack or a rude comment?
How can we take the emotion out of it, and make it clear that the purpose of votes is simply to rank content, not users (which is something that all of us know, but apparently new users do not seem to know)?
2
 
@CodyGray You should try to understand: "negative score in public", "negative reputation points", "I just joined the site and see how I was welcomed", etc.
 
Negative score on a post, not negative score on a user. Reputation cannot go below 1.
 
"I had 11 rep but now I'm back to 1 because of these evil downvotes!!11"
 
Plot twist: the rude/abusive flag is actually rude/abusive!
 
@CodyGray I already told how distinguishing between the post and its owner is not fair (in a different line of thought, and anybody is free to think anything, and new users tend to think like how I said there after reading many negative comments about SO elsewhere)
 
11:20 AM
The simple fact of the matter is, Stack Overflow reputation is a quantification of how useful the community has found your contributions to be. It is nothing more than that. This is why upvotes and downvotes both affect it, as well they should.
 
@CodyGray There is the problem with inconsistency. So a new users posts something that is asking in the same way as another post. The other post has a score of 487 and the new post is closed and deleted with a score of -18. That will very likely feel personal.
 
@Scratte Why? The new question was a duplicate; that automatically makes it less interesting and useful than the original question.
There's nothing inconsistent about it.
 
Yeah, too many times have I had to explain those on Meta that upvotes take time, dangit! Plus the circumstances were different years ago.
 
@E_net4isnotcute No, they still took time, even years ago. I've invested far too much time into this site to count.
 
Maybe change the tooltip to say: "This is not an interesting question."
 
11:24 AM
@CodyGray No.. I didn't mean a duplicate. I meant same type of phrasing and such. But content is different :)
 
@Dharman How would that be an improvement over, "This question does not show any research effort; it is unclear or not useful"?
 
@CodyGray Exactly. These old questions had been accumulating votes since they were asked.
 
@Scratte Uhh... yeah, it's not really fair to compare questions with different content as if they're equivalent.
 
Can't expect the same reception in 2 days.
 
Sounds warmer. More pleasant
 
11:25 AM
@CodyGray There was one on meta about C20 versus C17, if I remember correctly. I didn't read the post though, since I'm not C at all.
 
I wouldn't find that more pleasant at all as an asker.
 
"This question is unclear and/or not a useful addition to our knowledge base."
 
@CodyGray Old question: "How to make a cake?" Dupe question: "How to make a cake using C++?" The old question was answered in a more generic and technical way, and this new user only knows C++ and doesn't have the capabilities to understand the answers there which might have some hints on how to make a cake using C++. Then, having the new question closed as dupe would make them feel "I'm not worthy enough to be in this community cuz they can get the answer there but I cannot"
 
@Dharman There's a lot of questions I don't find interesting... doesn't stop it from being a perfectly fine question though
 
True. I see your point
 
11:27 AM
So, you people are right in your own ways of maintaining quality across the site. But at the same time, compromising the feelings of new (and probably students who don't know much programming) users.
 
That's an entirely different situation. The question was a duplicate, as originally posted, but if the asker doesn't understand how the answers to the other question apply to their situation, that changes things, and they should edit their question to clarify that. That is grounds for having it re-opened.
...And that is precisely why I think it's such a positive change for the "Edit question" button to be made so prominent in the blue closed banner for the original asker.
Suddenly, there is research effort, and it's not a duplicate anymore. It's also now a valuable addition to our knowledge base, because if that new user doesn't understand how to apply those answers, then others will likely not, either.
 
@CodyGray Except it shouldn't be a public button. It should be for the asker only.
 
@Scratte Right, right. Echoing my own complaints back to me, unfortunately, won't get the UI changed. :-(
 
there's a slippery slope between how much time you expect experts to answer useful questions vs how much time they should spend on guessing what the OP means. Often some intermediate users can do the guessing and edit the question into shape but that only works if you have a cooperative OP really, or the intermediate user has extraordinary mind-reading skills
 
@CodyGray I don't remember seeing the "Edit question", is this a recent feature? That sounds like a small step towards welcoming new users, but much more can be done.
 
11:30 AM
Surely you can't have missed it. There's a (literally giant) "Edit question" button appearing now at the bottom of all blue closure banners.
 
I guess it's only visible for high priv users though?
 
What I would like to see is something that at the very start would explain to new users what this site is about and what they can expect. I don't want to keep getting comments like this one anymore.
 
@Dharman Almost like the Tour?
 
viz. (Viewable by the post author and users with the close/reopen votes privilege)
 
@CodyGray I'm talking about a year ago
 
11:31 AM
They ask a messy question and beg in comments "Please help."
 
@tripleee I'm actually not very tolerant when it comes to inaccuracies in Questions. I don't like any sort of guessing at all. To me, that's a close reason.
 
absolutely; closing is a rational thing to do and in the best of worlds the first step towards having the OP clarify the question to the point where it can be reopened
unfortunately, these later steps often don't work very well even when the OP is willing and able to play along perfectly
 
@CodyGray Another good point: Why not take a small test of having read the tour and only then award the "informed" badge?
 
It's been a very long time since I checked to see exactly what new users see when they sign up and/or show up to ask a question. But as far as I remember, they are shown the Tour.
 
@ArdentCoder click-wrap nuisances only invite people to innovate workarounds
 
11:35 AM
Remember the Windows Setup that used to require you to press F8 until you got to the end of the license agreement?
 
@CodyGray Whatever, but one of the new users took all those insults and came back this year after learning programming on his own.
 
@tripleee I've had several cv-pls posts here that didn't get closed or even a vote. And I think it's because it takes some careful reading or for one to try to answer to see the problem. I'd like if there was a way to state more details for closure. Like a list, so once one has read the entire thing, it would be easy for others to see the issues.
 
@CodyGray No, what's that?
 
@ArdentCoder If by "insults" you mean "downvotes", meh. If by "insults" you mean "rude comments", then that's quite unfortunate. But, either way, it's fantastic that you were able to recover, be a self-starter, and come back here as a positive contributor. I learned programming via Stack Overflow myself.
 
I was thinking about this from the opposite direction, there really should be a way for the OP to say "amen, I responded to all the comments and clarified the question, can I get some reopen-pls love now?" because it's currently not at all guaranteed that newcomers who first barge in but then learn quickly will have a net positive experience
 
11:36 AM
@CodyGray If that's something similar to force new users to read the tour page then my suggestion was not that. In the tour page, make badges look more important, and at the end of the tour page ask the new users to get their first badge by answering questions related to the tour page. Then it's their choice.
 
@CodyGray Yeah, but even this sentence is confusing "This site is all about getting answers." We already have plenty and you can't expect an actual answer to your question. And there is no mention of downvotes at all
 
@ArdentCoder Windows NT 4.0 setup (and perhaps subsequent versions, too) used to require you to press the F8 key to scroll through all the pages of the license agreement during the text-mode phase of setup, and then press yet another key to indicate agreement with the license, before you could move forward with setup. Nobody actually read the license during setup; they just pressed F8 until the end. Or they passed a command-line switch that skipped the song and dance altogether.
@ArdentCoder Oh, I see.
 
the impulse to defer the welcome stuff until slightly later when you acutely want to just ask a question is very human, and a hard engineering problem regardless of your approach
 
@tripleee That's what suppose to happen with the edit-into-the-reopen queue.
 
@Dharman Fun fact: I have an "edit" link right underneath that sentence.
 
11:38 AM
maybe there should be a Quora question about how to succeed on Stack Overflow (-:
part of the problem I think is that there is a delicate balance between about 20 things you need to get right, even if you know what those 20 things are the balance is hard to get right on your first try
 
Right... the biggest and most insurmountable problem is that brand-new users who come here wanting to get an immediate answer to their question don't care about the site rules, much less its customs/expectations. Which is, as I've argued multiple times, itself rude.
 
@tripleee There's plenty already
 
I think there are several meta Questions about how to succeed on Stack Overflow :D
 
@CodyGray Yup, not only 'you see' but everyone should see. I could post that as a feature request on Meta, but you already know that I don't write QA there anymore. If you need any such help regarding suggestions for welcoming new users positively, feel free to ask me. But, in order to understand them, you should not be a scrum master who is a blind follower of the existing rules.
 
@Scratte (1) Do research first. (2) Be humble, open-minded, and willing to learn. (3) Don't take votes personally. (4) Follow the instructions in the Help Center and from well-meaning users. (5) Alert a moderator via a flag if you see something that makes you uncomfortable or suspicious.
I'm definitely not a scrum master.
 
11:41 AM
@Scratte yeah, what I'm getting at is that you might read them all and still not really get it
having something outside of meta would probably be more useful because it would probably reduce the background noise of jaded if not outright cynical comments from users who are tired of rehashing the whole thing again
 
@CodyGray Ya I know lol but there may be some who are like that
 
@CodyGray I did it differently. (1) Answer a Question. (2) Keep doing it, ignoring downvotes (3) Get privileges (4) Use them wrong (5) Find chat (6) Do research :) And.. I think I'm not unique in this way. (except for the chat part)
 
I'm also not a blind follower of rules. I only follow rules when they make sense. The thing is, all of ours make perfect sense. Which is not something that is customarily true of rules.
 
@tripleee That is probably very accurate. I didn't get it despite that I read the same help page over and over.. or the same post on meta.
 
@CodyGray part of the problem here is unpacking (4) sufficiently for new users
 
11:44 AM
Yeah, it doesn't belong on Meta. That's "advanced help". It belongs in the Tour, or something similar. But it needs to be kept short and succinct enough that people will actually read it.
 
@CodyGray No, they don't. They are just familiar.. :D
 
@CodyGray Existing rules will make perfect sense as long as new rules come to improve previous rules.
 
@Scratte No, I think they actually make perfect sense. I've thought about them every which way, and justified them against just about every counter-argument over the years. The more I think about it, the more I deal with them, the more sense they make.
I'm a very critical and analytical person. I don't just follow stuff. I don't just do it because it feels familiar.
 
@CodyGray So. You're actively getting more familiar with them? :) Why is it not allowed to post the same Question twice when the user interface is telling users to do it?
 
@CodyGray Good, and I know that cuz you were listening and responding to the suggestions instead of deleting the suggestions.
 
11:48 AM
Anyone else remember the "old days" when it was standard and normal internet etiquette to do your best to read and understand things first before participating somewhere? eg: you wouldn't just barge into a thread on usenet or part of a chat on IRC without being fairly sure it'd be well received? :p
 
@Scratte Two different issues. The user interface is broken. That's a bug. The reason not to post the same question twice is obvious: it's noise and clutter. We have limited resources (answerers), and asking the same question multiple times is a strain on those limited resources. When you go to anyone or anywhere to ask a question, you don't just keep asking it until you get an answer.
 
Why is the site not telling users that the goal of Stack is to have an encyclopedia of Questions instead of just referring them to a rule-set on the help pages?
 
Furthermore, re-asking a question that has already been closed is a procedural violation. It was closed for a reason, so asking it again is a clear attempt to subvert those rules. That kind of thing isn't allowed anywhere, or in any context.
 
My point was the the rules that are obvious to you, are not obvious to a new user :)
 
@Scratte It tries to. Again, see the tagline at the very top of the Tour page.
 
11:49 AM
@CodyGray But every company lies in the tagline :D
 
@Scratte Haha, cool
 
For what it's worth, I was a new user once. And most of this was quite obvious to me. Even back in the bad old days when things were less obvious and almost entirely undocumented.
 
But not every user is a Cody
 
I did read a couple of blog posts about it, which conveyed the site's purpose/vision quite clearly. But that's really all it took. Everything since then has just been iterations on that fundamental theme, which was established and clear very early.
 
@JonClements Some still do this, but I don't think it works like that anymore..
 
11:51 AM
@ArdentCoder Well, there's your problem! :-)
I could teach classes or give seminars?
 
@Scratte it's how it should still work... but everyone's in such a rush and wanting immediate solutions a lot of people consider it to be too much hard work. Which as @Cody said earlier, is pretty rude in itself...
 
I still bump into things like "why doesn't Github like my SSH key" but by know I know better than post a new question. Probably the real difference is that I know enough about the problem that I can google a good answer in spite of the shortcomings of Google's search engine (let alone then Stack Overflow's) with a question which has tens of thousands of duplicates internet-wide but only a few hundred actually good and current answers
 
@Georgy To be quite honest, that looks more like a candidate for reopening to me, rather than deletion. The attempt has been added into the question, and it's received several answers, suggesting to me that it is no longer too broad. What specific problem(s) do you see with the question that argue for its continued closure, much less deletion?
 
@Scratte I took the one close vote as a: You were probably right to flag it.
 
@CodyGray Yes, that's what I call unwelcoming. Mr. X goes to his teacher for help, and the teacher responds "You know what, I am from a rich family and I had all the resources to learn all these stuff. Now, it's your problem that you cannot understand this subject, should I arrange special classes for you?"
 
11:54 AM
@ArdentCoder Uh... First of all, I wasn't from a rich family and I didn't have any special resources available to me as a new user. Second, a teacher offering to help explain things to someone who doesn't get it when the teacher does is a good teacher.
 
@JonClements It is. I see it in chat too. A little familiarity with the room would go a long way before dumping 100 lines of code :) Or asking people to upvote "my" Question :D
 
@CodyGray I wrote a comment under the question. IMHO these types of questions are useless for future visitors. One can create a virtually infinite number of similar questions with nested dicts/lists/whatever. It would be better if OP split the task to separate subtasks. But those were already asked and answered here multiple times.
 
@CodyGray Of course, that's a good teacher. But the context and tone in which it is said is what that can hurt somebody.
 
@Scratte and then when people move it to the bin and kindly ask you to do things in a different way - they're clearly being rude to you :p
at which point, you post it again as those rude people clearly don't understand how important it is :)
 
@JonClements Of course. If they paid enough attention to move it, they might as well just do what I need ;)
 
11:59 AM
yup... have a little rant about it... get kicked and then go rant on reddit... it seems to be a fairy popular workflow :p
 
I liken it to those people who have a rule that you must take off your shoes before entering their home. I don't personally have such a rule, but I certainly follow that rule if others have it. And it's definitely not "rude" if those people stop me and insist that I take off my shoes before entering their home.
 
I've never seen those rants, but then I find reddit to be very confusing. I can never find anything there.
 
Is it "unwelcoming"? Actually, yes. And this is why I have such a problem with the "unwelcoming" cliche. There are certain types of behaviors that we do not welcome here.
You are not welcome in my home until you take off your shoes. That doesn't make me rude, though. It just means I have standards.
 
@CodyGray You should also see it differently. If I took a dirty piece of rubber from the road into your home and dragged it around your living room, would I be rude?
 
@Scratte Yes, of course. And that's precisely my point. If you know that I have a rule regarding that need to take off your shoes, and you refuse to follow it while simultaneously chastising me for being "unwelcoming", then you are being rude.
 
12:03 PM
@Scratte depends on whether you're British or American. It's definitely rude in either case but in one it's quite obscene.
 
@VLAZ But it's the same thing! :) One is just very obviously leaving all kind of s**t dirt around.
 
I have the right to set rules/standards/expectations/norms when it comes to entering my home. A website and its associated community has the right to set rules/standards/expectations/norms for users of that website. They don't have the right to be assholes about it, of course. But they have the right to set and enforce these rules, and doing so is not, in itself, being rude.
 
@Scratte In American English "rubber" is informal for a "condom". :P
 
Conversely, failure, much less outright refusal, to follow such rules that have been made clear to you is borderline rude.
 
@VLAZ Nice.. hadn't thought of that. I was thinking of a piece of tire from a car or bicycle.. or a sole.
 
12:11 PM
Morning
 
@NathanOliver it was :)
 
I reject your reality and substitute my own
 
Reality is overrated. Have you tried drugs?
 
@NathanOliver savage
 
@AdrianMole yes, but I did not inhale ;)
 
12:15 PM
@AdrianMole I don't need drugs. Looking at bad code is enough for me to start hallucinating a different world.
 
@NathanOliver Your loss :)
 
@Dharman umm... any reason for R/A there?
 
After reading the whole thing a second time, no.
 
cool :)
 
12:58 PM
o/ I have a question about [my very first burnitate request](https://meta.stackoverflow.com/q/398809), and was kindly pointed here - didn't know that this is on-topic here :)

I wasn't entirely sure how to state it, so I created an open question first ("what does this tag mean?"), which received some downvotes (I don't know whether it was disagreement with the content or the format); after checking out some other burnination requests and the tag wiki I edited it into a specific burninate request.
@JanWichelmann Why doesn't link formatting work? o.O Maybe because of the typo in "burninate"...
 
@JanWichelmann markdown doesn't work on multi-line messages (or link formatting at least)
 
@JanWichelmann formatting in chat doesn't work for multi-line messages
 
Ah, alright, good to know
 
@JanWichelmann The question looks fine to me. If you are actually requesting that it be buninated, then you might want to change the title to more reflect that.
 
Good point! I will adjust that
 
1:06 PM
 
1:19 PM
poor timing, Mach. SO is offline :-(
 
Heh. Thought it was the crappy wifi at my relatives
 
Offline? Everything working well here
 
I got one 'Offline for maintenance' message, but quickly back to normal
 
1:33 PM
probably someone didn't use jQuery where they should have
 
2:07 PM
@MikeM. FYI, I think this is showing as an invalid request in the URRS because your first link in the message is to the answer rather than to the question. Keep in mind if you post a *-pls message, the post (Q or A) you want acted upon should be the first one linked in the message.
 
@TylerH Yeah, I didn't realize that until it was too late to edit. I assumed it would take the last link, given the usual request format.
 
@MikeM. I've moved it for now. You are free to request again.
 
2:30 PM
Is there any timing kinda thing in this room where some time people are free to discuss issues and the rest of the time close votes?
 
@ArdentCoder you're always free to discuss stuff here. If the discussions become long-winded or otherwise problematically obscure *-pls requests, we may ask you to take it to another room or wait a while, though
 
@ArdentCoder You can start up a conversation any time you want. Generally we ask that you don't sart one in the middle of the room trying to help someone new, just to keep the conversation easier to folow. But that's about it
 
Oh, thanks. Aw man, I was expecting a heated reply lol hello @rene
 
 
Has SOCVR compiled any Stats on number of posts it intervened in?
 
@bad_coder maybe integer overflow?
 
We may have in the past, but we don't maintain any such statistics. You can take a look at the number of posts in the Graveyard room to get a rough idea.
 
@bad_coder barely. We used to scrape the transcript but that hasn't been done for a while. It would give stats per user.
 
looking at the graveyard stats, at least a quarter of a million posts are in there
 
2:51 PM
@rene Reasons?
 
@TylerH that was going to be my next question...Thanks guys!!
 
@ArdentCoder IIRC the bot that did that is no longer working/maintained
the person who maintained it is inactive on SO so we'd have to rebuild it from scratch
 
@TylerH I appreciate your polite reply
 
@rene I caught a new vice since last week...It's called Roomba :) 1 discreet DV cleans up old abandoned unmarked duplicates...Precious :)
 
@bad_coder Yep; more info here stackoverflow.com/help/roomba
 
3:02 PM
This smells like a duplicate; can anyone confirm? stackoverflow.com/questions/62640950/…
 
@JohnDvorak lacks MCVE but using java there doesn't seem to be a duplicate
 
It's not a debug question, so it doesn't need an MVCE
 
@bad_coder we used to only handle close votes. I've found this SEDE query: data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/281074/… that tries to match room regulars with close events and counts them. I haven't touched it since 2015 and as it is incredible inefficient as it doesn't want to run to completion without me fixing it.
 
@rene So, you mean nobody else can fix it?
 
3:17 PM
I'm fixing it right now, I hope ...
 
@rene Wow - some names in there I haven't seen around for a while... and ignored 1252759 jon-clements is something I'm use to :p
 
@rene 'right now' you were replying here. Once someone indicates they did not understand what you said,..., the goal should be to communicate, not ... Actually, what does "I hope" mean? Are you not sure about yourself fixing it? I'm confused.
 
3:31 PM
@ArdentCoder Meta-feedback: your most recent comment in this room seems rather unfriendly. I expect that is not your intention. One has to be very careful with language policing - I sometimes try it, and it does not always work out.
(In other words, asking someone to be more careful with their wording, or more specific, can be interpreted as an excess of pedantry, and will earn decreasingly favourable responses).
 
@halfer Oh, I was confused and I think words come out strangely when someone's confused. Anyways, thanks for letting me know.
 
Hello, I 'm having <=0 on my all SO posts. I 'm in need of help.
 
@VisheshMangla We ask that one-boxes are not used here.
 
Also, if people are downvoting you, this is not the official place to ask about it.
 
3:34 PM
oops wrong chat I guess
 
@VisheshMangla what do you need help with then?
 
Unofficially, we might be able to give you some pointers though.
 
sorry
yes plz tell, what is wrong in that post
 
@VisheshMangla The feedback in the close box (at least that I can see) is "Update the question so it focuses on one problem only. This will help others answer the question".
That probably means it was closed as "Needs Focus" (i.e. it was too broad or tried to ask about too many things).
 
It said need focus, but that was quite abstract for me.
 
3:36 PM
@VisheshMangla what's going on with the two questions here: stackoverflow.com/users/recently-deleted-questions/4213362
 
@JonClements LOL "ignore jon-clements" that was good, I laughed out loud :D
 
@E_net4isnotcute @gnat the OP of a question you closed is asking ^^^ (see above) if the question is now any good.
 
stackoverflow.com/questions/62455956/… This one has a little long story
 
@VisheshMangla I think this statement ("How to use the 2nd method such that the folders that are being created at runtime get put in a clean directory and not surrounded by those dependencies so that the user has no problem in putting his files into those folders?") needs some clarity. If the exe creates files at runtime, I think you need to clarify why a user would want to mix their files with run-time files.
 
Let me brief it. I got an assignment to write a MATLAB for a "fluid mechanics" course(chemical eng undergrad). I used MATLAB first time and was stuck for 2 days on that error.
I posted it on MATLAB questions(the official site), an MVP(Most Valued Person) there responded and then after a bit on conversation deleted his answer and I put that on SO
@halfer I ll respond just in a few mins.
Then I needed to urgently submit it due to some reasons. I switch an inbuilt function by a one written it by hand.(I wrote simpsons38 instead of using the default integrate)
I then removed MATLAB from my pc. I have institute licence. Then on SO they said get traceback and other stuff which I wasn't aware of in MATLAB. It's just one time I used MATLAB for
The answer there that I wrote for MATLAB is not tested by me.
Story over
Thanks for this helpful point @halfer . Let me edit it.
 
3:48 PM
@VisheshMangla Almost anybody would like to thank the way halfer treats them :)
"In other words, asking someone to be more careful with their wording, or more specific, can be interpreted as an excess of pedantry, and will earn decreasingly favourable responses" @halfer Can I go to the past and say this to somrone (I'll give you the credit)?
 
@rene mmm I never tried writing anything with SEDE, I wouldn't be able to form an opinion on the query without taking some serious time to think about it...I guess, the SOCVR stats will remain an archeological data-mining mystery for the time being. Something to look forward to :D
 
@VisheshMangla OK. The other thing to note is that theoretical questions tend to be treated less well that practical ones. Thus design-stage questions and how-do-I-do-this questions, especially if nothing has been tried practically, are more likely to be closed than some code that the question author really has tried to run.
 
I got it, I should have put the code.
 
@rene Uh, what to see above? Link please?
 
@VisheshMangla Look carefully at the successful posters and how they format their questions. It takes a significant amount of time to understand the logic of Stack Overflow.
 
3:52 PM
+1
 
@E_net4isnotcute sorry, this one stackoverflow.com/questions/61108611/… it was one boxed by Vishesh so I moved it
 
Yep, I could ask here only because I got that 200 reps privilege on code review.
Currently all my posts are waste if seen actually because I found out other ways to solve the problems or like left them. I first ask on Node IRC chat before asking here.
I need some way to erase all posts and start fresh since now I can discuss the issues
I have forgotten or lost motive to do many tasks which makes most posts trash since I had put them when I was stuck.
 
@VisheshMangla I would expect genuine questions to come by when the asker is really stuck somewhere, there's nothing to be ashamed about it. Believe in yourself, and one day you will also be a successful coder :)
 
I really wish I can. I 'm really thankful to the 200 reps policy otherwise I couldn't even start to do something.
I asked on meta about my posts , and I got that duplicate tag with votes in negative.
I was so fed up and stuck.
Again and again they showed me the "How to write a good answer post?"
 
@VisheshMangla Things may seem harsh at first. You will get over it as you get more used to how things work here. In the meantime, work on your skills and one day you will be capable enough to overshadow the people who once treated you badly ;)
 
4:06 PM
Thanks for sympathizing
 
No problem, I wish you all the best :)
 
Thanks again
 
4:30 PM
What reason should we give for questions that lack minimal understanding? "Too broad"? Should we add "lacks minimal understanding" as an explanatory comment?
 
imao it would be better to not allow users who lack minimal understanding participate here than welcoming them here and then saying you lack minimal understanding
 
@EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica needs focus is often appropriate. Needs clarity also works in many cases. Depends on the question. Do try and point them at appropriate resources if you want to leave a comment, however.
@EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica Also worth noting that not all "lacks minimal understanding" questions are close voteable. Many are but in some cases at best you can downvote. Also, check for dupes - there are many that might cover a basic question.
 
5:00 PM
@ArdentCoder How would you stop them? An 'entry' examination? For each tag/language?
 
@EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica "Lacks minimal understanding" is not a close reason. It was removed as a close reason a long time ago. You should evaluate the question based on it's content, not the level of understanding of the user. However, it does often take a minimal level of understanding to write a question which doesn't need focus or need more details (i.e. unclear or too broad), but just because the user doesn't have a particular level of understanding doesn't make the question off-topic.
2
 
Isn't this question a little too short? stackoverflow.com/q/62610383/1839439
 
@Dharman it's kind of your fault...for removing all the fluff.
 
Lacks focus?
New Close Reason: Title and Body cannot be the same.
 
Title : How do I do X
Body: How do I do X?
 
5:11 PM
This is where the comment blocker comes in. If you try to enter, "What have you tried?" the comment-Bot says: "If the author didn't show what was tried, why do you assume they tried anything? Either ask for a specific bit of information, suggest a specific improvement, or downvote and move on."
 
@AdrianMole I've basically asked them if they tried what was already suggested in github, which is what one of the answers already do :D
 
5:29 PM
@AdrianMole You made me think that was already implemented :D
 
@AdrianMole You didn't get the satire in that, especially when I started it by "imao"
@Makyen I've starred something after a long time!
 
5:49 PM
@ArdentCoder I'm not sure what "imao" stands for; it's not a common internet acronym
so that may be why Adrian also didn't understand it
 
There is a definition on IMAO
 
@TylerH Notice how I said 'especially'. It could still be interpreted as a satire ignoring 'imao' cuz any other interpretation will outright suggest that remark to be extremely rude, which would have gotten it flagged/deleted as soon as it was posted. However, since you've asked explicitly the meaning of 'imao', I meant "in my arrogant opinion". I hope that clears things out.
@TylerH Aw man, sorry I didn't read your second message.
 
Maybe go a bit lighter on the satire here until folks are a bit more familiar with you (and vice versa) :-)
 
@TylerH Lol, it should have been very clear by now how indirect I can be when someone messes with me cuz of "In other words, asking someone to be more careful with their wording, or more specific, can be interpreted as an excess of pedantry, and will earn decreasingly favourable responses", and kicking twice cuz of it.
 
@ArdentCoder Indeed; this room exists within a very narrow interpretation of the rules so we err on the side of caution. Hence, it's a good idea to think twice before sharing jokes/satirical thoughts here especially when new.
4
 
6:03 PM
@DavidBuck I could not say that's a req for offsite
It asks for an algorithm, not library
 
I agree, it's not a request for an off-site resource. However, it is a computer science problem, not a programming problem as such
 
It's a resource request. In this case the resource is an algorithm. Close reason specifies "Seeking recommendations for books, tools, software libraries, and more" and people will reply with opinions (as in the case of the only answer so far). That was my logic.
 
Especially given the lack of an implementation language
 
@TylerH I understand your thoughts. <backspaced everything>
 
6:08 PM
I do agree that cs is also a good reason. Never quite understood how they picked tex and not cs as one of the close options.
 
There were probably a lot more questions on how to format a document back in 2008/2009
 
@TylerH A few who knows what happened with me, can guess what was written there actually. Now, your assumptions can't get me kicked.
 
nowadays people who used latex are all retired I assume
@ArdentCoder I don't think you need to share such internal musings with the room. If you want to say something inappropriate and think better of it, it's best for everyone if you just keep that to yourself. Actually saying "I could've said something inappropriate, but didn't, so there" is arguably worse than just saying the thing.
 
@TylerH I did not mean that haha, you are probably assuming bad things. Think positively.
 
@Scratte It is! Try adding the comment I quoted in the first part ("What have you tried?"), and you'll see. (You can do it on one of my questions, if you're worried the comment will stick - but it won't!)
 
6:17 PM
@AdrianMole I tried. But I didn't submit.. I just wrote "What have you tried?".. and nothing happened.
 
Then press enter! You'll see a big red pop-up.
 
That's just awesome.. but will that not just make people inventive, like "Did you try anything?", "What have you already tried?", "Did you forget to include what you tried?". Come to think of it, I may have used that last one.
 
@Scratte relevant XKCD (warning: language)
 
@Scratte There's a difference in tone in each of your examples :P
 
Also wow, that red banner text is... less than stellar
"why do you assume they tried something" I dunno, Stack Overflow, maybe because we expect them to do that before asking?
 
6:25 PM
@TylerH The last bit is especially good. I think @Dharman is on the committee.
 
Interesting, never encountered this before. So this is actually built into SO, not just some user script we are all using?
 
@JanWichelmann Correct
There are a host of regexes that run on comment submission and comment flagging
Typically they are to prevent things (or auto delete things) such as spam, thanks, +1, etc.
but sometimes they are co-opted by the Be Nice committee like this one
@AdrianMole I'm also troubled by the lack of guidance to close vote the question as too broad / unclear
 
user10957435
@rene It runs for me, unless I'm not understanding the results I'm seeing.
 
@TylerH Yes, that is less than optimal phrasing. My reaction was "Wait.. what?!?.. Why do I assume?!? Because maybe that's what it looks like?" :) No offense to @AdrianMole :)
 
Heh. I just had a notification that somebody attempted to write an unfriendly comment on one of my posts.
^ Not!
 
6:30 PM
@Chipster yeah, I made a quick fix.
 
user10957435
@rene So that's the fixed version?
 
it is the version that runs :D
 
user10957435
Got you.
 
@rene Quick fixes may not always be totally correct. Will you double check it someday?
 
user10957435
Neat query, except it hard codes the regulars, so it's actually hard to see with current members, since new people have joined the room since 2015.
 
user10957435
6:33 PM
I wonder if there's a way you could generate a list of people active in this room for the past month or so automatically.
 
@Chipster not without scraping the chat transcript
 
So chat is not in any way part of SEDE then?
 
nope
 
@rene Why?
 
@Scratte nope - and not even any efficient/convenient way to get archives from chat... I asked ages ago: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/239347/…
 
user10957435
6:36 PM
@rene Ugh. I was wondering if the API had that data. Oh well.
 
@JonClements It's kind of discouraging to see a feature-request being over 5 years old :(
 
@Scratte One possibility could be that they don't want to accept the request, but they also might not wanna reject it. They may be waiting for some answers under the question (btw I have no idea what that thing is about).
 
@Scratte ETA for the feature is 6-8 years... so nearly there!
2
 
@ArdentCoder Oh. I thought is was one of those "If it's ignored long enough, it will go away"-kind of things :)
 
Or, cuz there's no space to add a sixth tag to show "status-X"? lol
 
6:42 PM
@ArdentCoder I think the change the "feature-request" to "status-X", so there's room :)
 
@Scratte I can't be sure, cuz I have no idea how that site works.
@Scratte Oh yeah, I think I was being dumb lol
 
@halfer Hey, that means it should be complete before the next pandemic
 
What is ETA?
 
expected time until arrival
 
@JohnDvorak Your answer almost came before I asked the question
Lol, you have some fast typing skills. Now, what is expected time until arrival?
 
6:51 PM
slow chat client on your side?
expected time until arrival - originally used in military operations where the arrival was literal, and "expected time" meant best guess. Used in a more general sense now for pretty much any time estimate.
 
@JohnDvorak I don't have any chat client, I'm directly messaging on SOCVR chatroom.
 
So you're using the official web client then!
Unless you're typing JSONs into a telnet window?
 
@JohnDvorak Nah man, I'm just using my keyboard
@JohnDvorak So what has that ETA got to do with any feature request?
 
My keyboard doesn't by default send messages directly to this room. I have to bring focus to a specific text field in a web browser tab that has this chatroom's URL opened as its website.
The ETA is the expected time of the arrival of the feature requested by the feature request... exactly as it says on the tin.
 
@JohnDvorak Yeah, but my keyboard is controlled by a human brain which automatically controls all those things by opening the browser and all those stuff beforehand lol
 
6:56 PM
0
Q: Merge tag ansible-2.x with tag ansible?

Baptiste Mille-MathiasLooking at the tags around ansible I see no use to have a separate tag ansible-2.x. I did not see any question about ansible 1.x so having both is redundant. Could it be possible to delete ansible-2.x in favor of ansible ? Best.

 
@JohnDvorak Ah, now I get it. I thought ETA was the feature request lol
 
@ArdentCoder more layers of abstraction! Does your brain await the confirmation of message delivery before returning control to the caller? If so, your measurement of my typing speed could be skewed if the confirmation delivery to your client (i.e. browser tab OR brain) delays.
 
@AdrianMole What committee?
 
@JohnDvorak Man, you stay stuck within classical physics. I work at the quantum level lol
 
Even more sources of delay jitter then! Time measurement is complementary to energy measurement - meaning if your brain is low on energy, it can't possibly measure time with any amount of useful accuracy.
 
7:00 PM
@JohnDvorak Lol that may be true in this universe, I'm from a parallel universe.
 
... which is a fact corroborated by empirical evidence predating the naissance of quantum mechanics.
 
@JohnDvorak Not sure how that works. Isn't the caller also the brain?
 
@Dharman Comment-Blockers Popup-Text Writers' Committee (see Scratte's linked image a few posts up from where I pinged you).
 
@Scratte I can't believe you actually read that thing lol
 
@Scratte different part of, yes.
 
7:07 PM
@ArdentCoder So, if you had a Quantum Stack, you could simultaneously push 500 trillion items; then, later, you could simultaneously pop 500 trillion items. But would they be the same 500 trillion items?
 
@AdrianMole ..and would any of them have come alive?
 
@AdrianMole Yes. But you still can't read them.
 
@AdrianMole Counting works differently in that world, I cannot guarantee an accurate result lol
 
Ok, now I'm on the Quantum Beer. Never quite sure just how many I've drunk.
 
@AdrianMole If that's the beer then you won't be caught for drink and drive
 
7:14 PM
Unless my Quantum car is pulled over by Quantum cops.
 
After enough beers, you won't be able to see clearly, and will only be able to perform weak measurements - meaning that instead of a single observation, you'll get a weighted average of all possible observations. Classical beer has a similar effect, but it's limited to a weighted average of two classical states. In other words, classical beer lets you see double, but quantum beer lets you see everything.
@AdrianMole Beware - quantum cops can always pull you over even if they don't know which way you went.
2
 
That's why you can never use beer as a control variable in a for loop. 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3 ... 4, 4, 3 ...
^ Would that be "Needs focus" or "Seeking tutorials..."?
 
> The highway was pitch black. Without headlights, you were overwhelmingly likely to drive off a cliff anytime soon. There was dense fog everywhere. That fog even gets in your head, I tell you. Suddenly a drunk maniac passed me at at least twice the speed limit, maybe thrice. I began pursuit, but with the fog it was impossible to see where they went. Luckily I was there with Pete, who knows this highway very well. Before I knew, he reached for the headlight and shut them down. (1/?)
> It's impossible to see the road, you'll surely crash, I thought, but I did see the criminal's tail lights very clearly now. I always aimed directly at them, and somehow stayed on the road that way despite making several sharp turns during the pursuit. Shortly after, I caught up. I had the car in sight. I turned on the headlights again, found my way before the criminal, and I forced them to stop. I have no idea where I am, but one thing is sure: That guy is going with me.
 
What is this, a SwiftOnSecurity fanfic tweet?
 
7:28 PM
The Quantum Highway
 

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