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12:03 AM
@Vickel Please explain?
 
@DontKnowMuchButGettingBetter I'd love to see a rule, that questions can only be asked by registered users who've got the informed badge
 
@Vickel Ah, I see what you're saying. That might be good for site quality but not good for site economy
 
@DontKnowMuchButGettingBetter it's an ongoing problem, since the site was founded
@DontKnowMuchButGettingBetter you cannot relate quantity of questions asked with site quality, at all
and site economy comes from quality not quantity
 
@Vickel site economy comes from number of eyeballs that scan advertisements, nothing more and nothing less
Short-term, this improves by letting anyone ask a question, although long-term will depend more on site quality
 
@DontKnowMuchButGettingBetter 'I'm here to get my question asnwered, don't care about your advertising at all, don't care about how to format a code block, and I want it ASAP
 
12:20 AM
I finally hit 10k on one of my other sites :) Now I just need to get that for SO too...
 
@EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica Now it's the long grind to 25k :D
 
@Braiam Fortunately, the site is still in beta, so I have 25k rights too
 
Ha!
 
Is it appropriate to flag for moderator intervention asking them to clean up a spam account? (I won't link to the exact account in question per room rules).
Do mods routinely review accounts who had R/A or spam flags upheld against them recently? Or just if they were involved in the original flag?
 
@EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica From what I understand, if the post is deleted by 6 spam flags, then it's removed from the moderator queue and they are not specifically informed about it. As far as I know, If there is a review of accounts with spam/R/A deleted content, then it's not an automatic process, unless someone has created a userscript for it.
As to cleaning up the accounts, sometimes that's good, sometimes it's "meh". At least from SD's POV, it's easier to identify spam/R/A content if it's posted by the same account and it's more likely that the post will have enough weight/detections for MS to raise autoflags.
 
12:32 AM
Good to know...
 
@Makyen Actually, a really interesting question would be how often spam or troll accounts that aren't cleaned up get reused (and whether there was some way to predict which is which). If they're unlikely to ever use the account again, it's probably not worth the time to nuke it.
This particular account was created several weeks ago and has a bio filled out. I'd be curious to know whether that suggests that they intend to re-use the account or not.
 
12:53 AM
@EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica Well, at least from SD's POV, for users which have been placed on the user-blacklist, their next post is TP about 71% of the time. That number is probably a bit lower than what you're looking for, because there are times when a user dumps a few spam posts in a row, but stops prior to being put on the user-blacklist.
A user is placed on the user-blacklist when someone indicated that the user should be on the blacklist due to a prior post, usually by giving tpu feedback, and a post by the user has not subsequently received FP feedback, which would remove them from the list. There's manual commands to add or remove from the list, but it's predominantly done through feedback.
 
 
2 hours later…
3:40 AM
@Makyen re: the last SmokeDetector do you give OP a chance to edit before flagging as spam?
 
3:55 AM
@Nick I assume you mean the one that has undisclosed affiliation. Yes, personally, as long as they've only done it once or twice, and the post is otherwise valid, I generally prefer to leave a comment and give the OP a chance to edit the post to comply with the requirements. I go into more detail in this answer, but that was for an answer which was nominally good.
For the answer in the SD report above, I'm not that thrilled with the quality level. While it does appear to be an answer, I'd like to see more content. It also feels like at least a significant portion of the intent is to drive traffic to their site. Thus, I'm not that happy about the answer, even if they had minimal disclosure.
A moderator just straight deleting the post, which is what happened, seems reasonable to me.
 
@Makyen thanks for clarifying. I did see it was their first post so was inclined to give OP a chance to edit but I see that it has been taken out of our hands.
 
4:42 AM
Could someone help me to finally understand why some "VLQ" from "H&I" queue end up in my flags queue, but some not?
 
🤷‍♂
 
 
2 hours later…
6:22 AM
@Vega do you have two examples for posts / reviews, one where you have a flag for and one you don't? Maybe looking at the timeline of those gives it away?
 
dbc
6:36 AM
@DavidBuck When Where can I find the FRC awards’ criteria? went through triage, the results were Unsalvageable × 3. Why didn't that close or delete the question? What does picking Unsalvageable actually do?
 
@dbc Doesn't it just stick it into the close queue? I didn't spot the triage history, I just guessed that a question that only had a tag of might float about forever. I only spotted it because the answer showed up in FP and was obviously an answer for an off-topic question.
 
dbc
Is that all? That seems... sort of weak. Does that imply that if I find an unsalvageable question in Triage I shouldn't bother to mark it as unsalvageable, I should just bring it up in another window and vote to close it?
 
@DavidBuck correct, unsalvageable sends it to the close queue.
@dbc here is the review queue flowchart: i.stack.imgur.com/1rTGm.png /cc @DavidBuck
 
dbc
6:57 AM
Interesting thanks.
 
@dbc Users in Triage are raising real close-flags or casting real close-votes when they mark it as unsalvageable (and not because it's spam or R/A). If the three users all have close-vote privileges, then the post is closed right then. If they all don't have >3k rep, then the question enters the CV queue with 3 close-flags. Then there are the combinations where the post enters the CV queue with some close-flags and 1 or 2 close-votes.
 
That's correct; that "FRC awards" question received 4 "recommend closure" flags. None of the reviewers had close-vote privileges, so it didn't get closed.
 
Hi all
 
dbc
Ah that's it. The three Unsalvageable voters had < 3K rep.
 
Pre-empt: I have no answer to your follow-up question of why a certain number of "recommend closure" flags don't convert into a close vote.
@intika Hello. Please feel free to interrupt with your request/question.
 
7:03 AM
I have a little question i am reviewing suggested edits along with the close votes... a bunch of suggested edit are just adding a tag or two, while leaving the question with grammar/formatting mistakes... should i approve those edit if the tag is appropriate?
@CodyGray thanks :)
(i may have searched before asking here... :()
not in my habit
i guess that i am just sharing the frustration about edits that are not true edits
 
@intika There is no correct answer to that question, unfortunately. It's going to be a judgment call. What I'll say is that tag-only edits are OK, especially when the question is missing a critical tag (like, say, a language tag), but if the question is utterly unsuitable for this site and needs to be closed, it is almost certainly a waste of time to retag it.
So, based on your judgment, you can reject these edits as being "no improvement whatsoever".
 
thanks :)
 
I want to qualify this by saying that we don't want to discourage people from making minor edits, as long as those minor edits do make some significant improvement. For example, formatting the code to make it readable is a major improvement, even if you don't also fix the grammar problems. And adding a [python] tag to a Python question is a huge improvement, even if you don't remove the "Thanks :-)" from the end.
 
Is there an option in the suggested edits that says something like: "Did not address all the issues"?
 
the policy changed a few years ago, we generally welcome even marginal quality improvements now even if they don't manage to fix all issues, as long as the post is basically understandable and salvageable
 
7:06 AM
@Scratte No, because we don't want to reject edits on that reason; see my message above. There used to be a "too minor" rejection reason (or similar), but it was removed.
But, where the spirit of "too minor" lives on is in the "no improvement whatsoever" rejection reason, which meant to edits that merely rearrange deck chairs on the Titanic (or, in even more colloquial terms, polish a turd).
If there's no possible way to salvage the question, then it's almost certainly pointless to suggest edits to it, and you would be justified to reject them on that basis.
 
@CodyGray Oh OK. I think I've been misguided by the meta post from the FAQ index that is still saying not to edit posts if they're not addressing all the issues.
 
Meh. It's a good guideline.
But not a rejection reason.
If that makes sense.
 
> rearrange deck chairs on the Titanic

hahaha nice one
 
Not really, no. To me it doesn't make sense. Because approving such edits do not send any signals.
 
I personally try to fix all problems with a post when I edit. If I'm going to do it, why not take the time to do it right? (And I have full editing privileges, so a lot of the reasons why you should avoid minor edits don't apply to me.) But honestly, sometimes I don't have the time. In the course of moderating, I might make an edit that removes abusive language, or removes a spam link, or formats a code block, but not have time to totally copy-edit the post.
@Scratte What signals do you mean?
 
7:10 AM
I guess signal that would say "edit to make it better not to get rep points"
 
@CodyGray Any approved edit sends the signal that's the edit is good. If there are spelling and grammar issues and formatting problems and someone just edits in a missing tag, I don't think "good edit" applies.
@intika That too :)
 
As I tried to say at the outset, this is a contentious issue, and opinions vary.
Official policy is that there's no such thing as "too minor", and that's no longer a rejection reason. But there is such thing as "no improvement whatsoever", so you have to use your own judgment.
 
Heh.. ok. So all bets are off really :)
 
You could read everything on Meta and create some kind of T-chart...
If you want to limit your reading, just start here.
 
The abyss of meta is not be to underestimated.
 
7:15 AM
LOL
You certainly can be lost for 6 to 8 weeks on Meta.
 
My canonical example of edits being minor to the point of being "no improvement whatsoever" is a user whose suggested edits consisted largely of capitalizing "i" and "android studio" on posts that were months old, complete train wrecks, or both.
 
Mine is improving the grammar of blatantly off-topic questions.
The good news is, deleting the question automatically deletes all pending suggested edits with it.
 
You like Peter?
 
I have asked him to add some sort of filter to his tool...
 
Funny, because I believe I actually did spend about 6-8 week just on meta (including meta.SE. The licensing topic almost killed me)
 
7:19 AM
I've spent almost 10 years on Meta...
 
@CodyGray I definitely read this as "T-shirt" and now I want to create an "I spent 6-8 weeks on Meta and all I got was this T-shirt" shirt...
 
Too bad the swag fountain is turned off.
 
@CodyGray But were you playing catch-up to understand what the fuzz was all about? :)
 
@Scratte No, that's just rene. He always looks fuzzy.
 
That's just you. Try putting real glasses in the frame :)
 
7:25 AM
These are quite real
 
@Scratte good news: there is now another image with a concrete example and a detailed explanation of what should happen, and I am still flummoxed
 
@RyanM I also do not understand the logic.
@CodyGray There was an earlier discussion about a timeline on a post, that caused some confusion. If it's ok, I'd like to ask you about it.
 
Looks like the person wants his icons/buttons to be all lined up in a row.
@Scratte OK? I cannot promise to know the answer.
 
@CodyGray It from this message
At the time, the answer was still there. Which puzzled me because my flag had been marked as helpful. I was also puzzled by what action had invalidated it from the LQP queue. Now, I can only work from memory, but if it serves me right, the post had entered the First Posts queue after it had recieved it's "recommend deletion" in the LQP. I had marked it NAA an hour before the post was invalidated.
 
@Scratte Looks like a fat-finger by a moderator. Kind of hard to explain, but let me try.
An automatic duplicate flag was raised on that answer, which is probably what the mod saw and handled. Seeing that the other answer had already been deleted by a different moderator, they dismissed that auto duplicate flag. They must have missed that there were pending NAA and VLQ flags on that answer, and dismissed all of the flags at once as "helpful". (All the flags were marked helpful simultaneously.)
They should have deleted the whole answer, because duplicate or not, it's clearly NAA. But...for some reason, the mod didn't.
I can only assume they got confused, using a certain mental filter when handling a certain type of flags.
I really don't know, though. It might just have been an honest mistake. Either way, I've corrected it.
 
7:39 AM
That makes sense. Obviously I couldn't raise another flag. Dharman did predict there was some moderator involvement. Do you know when it was actually deleted? By another flag or "by coincidence"?
 
Deleted by me.
Yes, there was another NAA flag raised on it
 
@CodyGray Ok. That makes sense now. Thanks :) I assume nothing would have happened if no one had raised another flag (or if it hadn't been discussed in public :)
 
That's correct.
But it's quite common that somebody raises another flag. Nothing is ever invisible here.
 
About the image from the post. I do not understand the actual logic of which icons should appear when or where. It seems that clicking on "Repertory" should remove "My profile" from the lower list. Why? It also moved "Bookmar..." to the lower line. Why? Then it adds "Remedies" and "Authors" to the upper line. Why? And why to the upper, not the lower?
 
@rene This one entered my flag queue, while this one, didn't. I believe the key should be in the timeline (thank you :) ), but I am unable to decode it
 
8:05 AM
@Vega the only difference seems to be that the one that entered your flag queue got their reviews invalidated while the one that didn't enter your flag have completed reviews. That still doesn't make sense but at least it is a lead.
 
8:31 AM
@rene After a few back and forth in timelines, I found that the one which didn't enter had one "Unsalvageable" vote in triage before my "VLQ" flag, while the other one had one "Looks OK". I am less clueless now, thank you very much
 
yw
 
@Adriaan the whole chat room?
 
:-)
 
8:59 AM
@rene would serve someone's purposes probably... apologies, please bin.
@sideshowbarker that's already mentioned 4 messages up by Smoke Detector, why re-post here in chat, as opposed to simply confirmning the SD report?
 
@Adriaan sorry I didn’t see it here but instead over on SOBotics
I don’t actually know hw to confirm SD reports
but does confirming the SD report cause to be flagged as spam?
 
@sideshowbarker doesn't SD send the spam reports to both SoBotics and SOCVR at the same time?
 
I dunno, I guess so?
 
@sideshowbarker ask @rene, you'd need to have permission to do that (or just do like I do and reply "that's spam" or something)
@sideshowbarker afaik not automatically, you'd still need to manually flag
 
9:23 AM
@Adriaan yes, I think sobotics accepts, is not on a delay
@sideshowbarker both SOBotics and SOCVR get SD reports. In certain circumstances (don't ask me to elaborate) SOCVR might be put on a 5 minute delay (on request by the RO team) so you might see spam reports sooner in SOBotics then in here. Users still need to flag and if you use one the Charcoal userscripts, your flag action might get reported back, or you reply with k to the report.
For the record, currently there is no delay.
 
As far as I understand, privileges are required to "confirm" SD reports. You need to get access by contacting a Charcoal member, and then you can either use a userscript, reply to the SmokeDetector chat message, or click on the "MS" link to report a "true positive" or "false positive".
Note that this is only necessary for improving the Charcoal project's heuristics. As far as the site is concerned, all you really need to do is flag problematic content.
In other news, @rene has written a longer answer than me on Meta, and I'm now a bit concerned about this new world we are living in. :-)
 
@CodyGray yeah, I wanted to leave that bit out as I always makes typos in //!amiprivleged and when they reply with k Smokey tells them exactly what is going on.
@CodyGray it is always risk writing a long answer to that kind of questions. By the time you want to submit it is either closed, deleted, has 10 other awesome comments or got a better answer. Hate to see I could have left it at two sentences ;)
 
9:41 AM
Indeed. I did the same thing to this question from yesterday, which everyone prefers to leave deleted.
Is there a word for the feeling of exhaustion about incessant whining over downvotes?
 
downhaustion?
5
 
Doesn't have a pleasing ring to it. Must be Dutch. :-p
 
I take that compliment ;)
 
10:09 AM
Did I hear about people whining over downvotes?
@rene I must admit your answers on Meta have raised the bar recently. I particularly like the way you take expressions from official SO announcements and apply them to the given context.
 
@E_net4isoutofcommentflags Examples? I think I've missed that subtlety.
 
@CodyGray thanks for dealing with that question so quickly.
It got me wondering, so this seems to be the question with the lowest score. Non-deleted only.
 
It's a silly game. The lowest-score questions get deleted.
 
The only winning move is not to play.
 
10:30 AM
That's how I win every game.
 
 
2 hours later…
@rene Got it — thanks for the details
 
@rene I'm not sure there's an intentional delay, but SE chat and SO chat are on different servers. Inexplicably SO is sometimes slower
 
12:35 PM
@Machavity there has been intentional delays.
 
Morning
 
My bet is rate limiting but @Makyen would probably know (I don't know how the sausage is made there). It seems like most notices are within second of each other
And SD illustrated it ^. Showed up here and in Charcoal about the same time
 
depends on a number of things, I often see notices in other rooms several seconds before Charcoal
 
Rate limiting is terrible on Stack Overflow
 
if we posted several notices in Charcoal recently we will get increasingly aggressive back-offs, the nominal recommendation is one message per 20 seconds which we frequently exceed
 
12:43 PM
@Machavity There's rate limiting on each chat server based on the number of recent posts by the user. Which site/room will be posted first will depend on what other things were recently posted. In general, the number of posts which SD makes per server looks like chat.SO < chat.meta.SE << chat.SE. So, generally, things will tend to be reported on chat.SO faster than chat.SE.
 
I had to add delays to my bot when SO tells me to wait few seconds before posting again.
 
@Makyen Smokey has a posting queue then?
 
@Dharman Chat in general leaves a lot of things to be desired
 
should properly be refactored to proper OOP but there you have it
 
12:46 PM
@Dharman In my experience on chat, you can just keep sending, until chat says you need to wait, then wait exactly that number of seconds, and then post again. From my testing, the delays are post, post, delay, post, post, delay, etc. (i.e. a delay after every other message posted). If you keep sending, the delays ramp up to 20 seconds.
 
the real voodoo is in the ChatExchange library, or more specifically Charcoal's fork of it
 
Was that the project to "api-ize" chat?
 
doesn't ring a bell, this is the Python library by Manish from ... way back
Ashish Ahuja has a thing called BotPySE which might be what you are alluding to
ChatExchange basically scrapes the chat web page ... but sure, it provides an API of sorts based on the results
 
I didn't think so. Someone was talking at some point about writing a library to frontend chat like an API. But I've seen so many of those discussions I've lost track
 
@Machavity There have been a variety of efforts to do so in different languages. There are several mentioned on StackAps.
 
1:09 PM
After a lot of back and forth with the OP, I think the following question is clear enough (and reproducible) to reopen...
 
1:59 PM
Out of curiosity, isn't this comment rude? stackoverflow.com/questions/13523060/…
I'm kinda hurt. :(
 
@PraveenKumarPurushothaman I only find a bit too hard that the comment is in bold, that was quite unnecessary. With that said, we do care about providing useful information. If the answer can be easily updated, it's best to do that, then flag the comment as no longer needed.
 
@PraveenKumarPurushothaman It's terse but not rude. The user is being a bit too dramatic, but I don't see a good reason to flag it
 
@Machavity Okie! 🙏🏻
@E_net4isdownhausted Super.
But doesn't the answer's date of over 8 years ago doesn't make any sense or what? Not sure what the user was thinking though. No idea we need to deal with these kind of people! :(
 
@PraveenKumarPurushothaman It may have been posted 8 years ago, but people will be reading it in the present. If the answer says "this is still not standard" and the real answer now is that this feature is standardized, one may argue that the answer is misleading.
 
@PraveenKumarPurushothaman Not rude, no. Could be put a better way, but often that's because the writer has poor English.
 
2:08 PM
Ah, got it...
I guess I'll edit the answer to make it look a lot better then...
 
@PraveenKumarPurushothaman I would suggest refraining from remarking on the age of a post - if someone wishes to comment on an eight year old post, that is fine.
 
@halfer Okie. :(
 
The whole point of Stack Overflow is to maintain answers over the long term. I don't know if there is necessarily a moral responsibility to curate one's answers, since that is a lot of work, but someone adding a comment to say that a technique is outdated is broadly a good thing.
I would suggest you delete your comment and rephrase it.
 
^ Pretty much. Also, we sometimes get these "why the downvote on a X year old question" comments, which don't make much sense. If people don't find the answer useful today, it's in their right to downvote it.
We understand it's hard to maintain all answers, but trying to edit them into a more specific context is a good thing. Some people can't update dependencies or browsers, for example.
 
@PraveenKumarPurushothaman I hate to say it, but I've gotten random downvotes and comments from people saying it doesn't work anymore. Well, yeah, it's a crazy old...
 
2:13 PM
@halfer Can you please help me with a better comment?
@Machavity Ah! :(
@E_net4isdownhausted Yea, true...
@halfer Deleted.
 
@PraveenKumarPurushothaman Sure. Don't mention rudeness, and don't mention the age of the post. Something like "Thank you {user} for your comment. Could you add another answer to explain further?" or "Could you suggest an edit to my post to bring it up to date" etc.
One of the things I need to get better at is to develop an emotional resilience to (perceived) rudeness, such that any abruptness is filtered out and nearly invisible. Then there is only meaning left, which can be handled as if someone just asked an ordinary question.
I am getting slightly better at this, but I would like to improve further. Some people are just naturally good at it.
 
I do well at that myself, but only because I've grabbed that third rail more times than I care to count. And once in a while I still forget. Failure is sometimes the only teacher we'll listen to...
 
@halfer Wow, that's nice. Will do. Done thanks. stackoverflow.com/questions/13523060/…
@halfer Ha ha, true.
 
2:38 PM
@PraveenKumarPurushothaman Good work
 
3:47 PM
 
 
1 hour later…
6:08 PM
 
@Machavity Hey, I've seen that message before :D
 
 
1 hour later…
7:11 PM
 
7:50 PM
 
 
1 hour later…
@Dharman not sure if you reached a decision but if you are still taking suggestions, then mine is "yes"
 
Yeah, I convinced myself before anyone else did :D
The answers are useless in my opinion and the question is purely opinion-based. We should delete it in 2 days.
 
@Dharman moreover, I think the answers are most likely outdated. As well as useless.
 
9:32 PM
 
9:53 PM
Was I wrong to make the edit here? stackoverflow.com/a/62137839/1839439
 
@Dharman seems fine. It's irrelevant information.
 
Thanks
 
10:29 PM
What's the correct comment flag for a comment containing words like "sister****er" (minus the censoring) directed at no one in particular (example: "any _______ who can help?")? Is it unfriendly/unkind or harassment/bigotry/abuse?
 
@RyanM Any will do. I would go for unfriendly because it is not as harsh as it could potentially be, but honestly it makes very little difference to me. If you want to play it safe and make sure that your flag is marked helpful then go for NLN
 
Yeah I'm definitely rolling the dice on a declined flag, because the word is not in English ^^;
 
@RyanM Then use NLN. NLN covers rude or abusive comments too. Actually, almost every comment is not needed. If the comment is rude and not in English then simply flag NLN and move on. If the user is showing patterns of bad behaviour towards other users or the content then flag using custom moderator message.
@RyanM If you would like to know official guidance is posted here: meta.stackexchange.com/a/313552/515960
 
@Dharman thanks!
 
10:56 PM
@Dharman Yeah, I couldn't decide, but it's at the very least a terrible question.
This way it'll at least be gone in a week
 
11:45 PM
@SotiriosDelimanolis I was going to vote to delete, but it has been undeleted by a mod. Why do want to overturn mods decision?
 
11:57 PM
@Dharman I can only guess the author of the accepted answer requested it be reopened. I still don't see any value in it.
 

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