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00:01
@Nick I used to say yes, primarily because it makes other people seeing it when reviewing old, unfulfilled requests much more likely. With the change to only requiring 3 CV, it's much more likely that the request will be handled prior to it scrolling off of most people's chat screen, so making it easier to review unfulfilled requests isn't as important as it once was. If you want to, you're welcome to repost it.
That's fine, I'll leave this one for now. If it's still open in a week or so I'll repost, properly.
It's closed, already.
Does Roomba eat duplicates?
@Scratte yes
00:08
@Dharman done
@Nick There's no need to ping us when a request is fulfilled. With the amount of requests here it just generates unwanted noise. If you have more questions that need special handling we would be happy to help.
but it would presumably eat them only under the "dead" and "abandoned" rules, rather than "abandoned closed", so the requirements for duplicate Roomba-ing are stricter than normal close roomba-ing
@Dharman sorry - just a newbie learning the rules
No problem. It's nice to see some new users who want to help out in here. We appreciate that.
@Scratte note that casting a single dupe vote on it won't close as dupe unless a gold-badger does it
err, right, you're not the voter
00:13
I've only seen black and white badgers. Will they help?
well...bleh.
@RyanM That is correct. Duplicates are not removed if they have answers.
@AdrianMole I mean they're nice to look at while voting
@RyanM Funny. Because I retracted my needs details prior to posting it here :)
I've done a fair share of voting and dupe hammering outside the room as well as reviewing but this seems more efficient...
00:15
juuuuust gotta get checks notes 841 more points
@Nick BTW: If you're going to be in the room and/or submitting requests, you might want to consider using some of the userscripts we have. The two most commonly used are the Request Generator (with the alpha version of this script preferred, unless you are using Greasemonkey on Firefox), and the Unclosed Request Review Script (URRS). These make it easier to generate requests and see the current status of requests in chat/review requests which are unfulfilled.
@Nick The purpose of this room is to handle questions that need closing, but are unlikely to be closed outside of this room on time.
@Makyen "unless you are using Greasemonkey on Firefox" wait what now?
I use the alpha version with Greasemonkey on Firefox, am I doing it wrong?
@RyanM Also.. all the details are actually there. The stacktrace is in the long code block :)
@Scratte yeah that's what I meant, although it took me a while to notice. I was saying that I agree with your assessment, but I'm unable to fix how it'll be closed :-p
00:18
@RyanM Doesn't matter. There's been no response from author since I made the comment :) And the error is searchable from google to the other post.
@RyanM The alpha version of the Request Generator is considered alpha because it doesn't, necessarily, function properly on Greasemonkey 4, due to Greasemonkey implementing the calls to read/write userscript storage as asynchronous Promises, while all the other userscript managers implement a synchronous interface. So... it will have some issues.
ohhhh, that explains a thing or two with revisits
@RyanM Yeah, revisits will definitely be affected, as will remembering what you've entered for requests and if you've previously sent a request for the post.
@RyanM The basic functionality should work (i.e. it should send requests). It's just not going to be correctly remembering most state information. How much is affected is really not tested.
it mostly works, for what it's worth
(is there a better userscript manager for Firefox?)
@user12986714 Do you mean Needs more details?
It's got an answer
00:25
@Dharman see edit history but yeah I think that request isn't needed anymore
Yeah it rolled back
I rolled few more revisions
@Dharman Thanks. I guess I didn't look far enough back when I did so first.
@RyanM The big 3 are Tampermonkey (closed source, but the most popular), Greasemonkey (very significant compatibility issues with many userscripts, which won't be resolved), and Violentmonkey (open source, testing indicates at least some compatibility issues, but I haven't tracked them 100% down yet). I generally test scripts on all three.
Unfortunately, as to Greasemonkey 4 (GM4), I recommend against using it. I used to strongly recommend Greasemonkey 3, particularly from a security POV. However, the security benefits are largely gone in Greasemonkey 4.
The main issue with GM4, from a user's POV, is that Greasemonkey 4 has significant compatibility issues with both existing and new scripts. Scripts often have to be written with the express intention of working with GM4, or common assumptions which people make when creating scripts just don't work the way they expect. The problems are fairly pervasive: 30 of the userscripts I use for Stack Exchange don't work with GM4. So, overall, most users will be better off with one of the other two.
Personally, I primarily use Tampermonkey. I actually have both Tampermonkey and Greasemonkey active, so I can do testing between them.
00:35
What's the security implications of GM4?
@RyanM GM4 does an OK job at security; arguably better than Tampermonkey (probably and Violentmonkey, but I haven't seen direct comparisons). However, it's not even close the the separate security environment which GM3 was able to use for userscripts.
There's been some work in Firefox to allow userscript managers to have a security environment that's much closer to what was available in GM3. However, the last I checked, there were still significant issues with the implementation and none of the userscript managers had deployed a version which was using the new capabilities.
@Makyen Why is it necessary to have the security? Is it for running script one doesn't trust?
I just realized I lied and I actually do have Tampermonkey installed
I feel a bit dumb now >_<
np. We've all done similar from time to time. :)
@Scratte To an extent, yes, but that's not all of it. The userscript shouldn't be able to gain additional privileges beyond those which are explicitly granted to that one script. In addition, the userscript's privileges shouldn't leak to the scripts already running in the page (and potentially allowing them to escalate the privileges of the now-compromised userscript).
It should be noted that the permissions which a userscript can get are sufficient to significantly compromise the security of your browser. You should not be running ones which you don't trust. While it's not quite as important as not running a browser extension you don't trust, it's definitely possible for a userscript to compromise any confidential information in your browser.
All userscripts are JavaScript/CSS/HTML. Their source should be readily available. This is similar for any browser extensions. If the code is minimized, obfuscated, is fetching and running other code from somewhere which isn't secure, then that should be of significant concern.
01:06
@Makyen Thanks. I had a feeling it would be a matter of isolation. I'm not sure how to modify the privileges of one script (not that I want to). I helps to be fluent in JavaScript to evaluate a script obviously :)
I expect the information to modify privileges are available on a google search though :)
@Scratte Yes. The permissions that are intended to be granted to the script are contained in the block of comments at the top of the script. The main things to look at wrt. that are the pages on which it will run (@match and @include), the additional userscript APIs which it requests, which are listed in @grant, any external scripts it @requires or uses as a @resource, and, for some userscript managers, which domains it @connects to.
It's also a good idea to look for anything that it might be fetching elsewhere in it's code from other URLs and running. Unfortunately, there are a variety of ways that might be done, so quickly listing them is not as easy.
 
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08:27
^ completely unrelated to Question. A copy-paste of maybe some registration form
09:31
Was there a change with triggering some guidance or did I just never see that before? Last night I edited the tags of a question. The regex tag was already there and I didn't touch it, I just added the language tag which was missing. SO prompted me with guidance for the tag it showed me few bullet points besides the tags that said stuff like "it's preferable to mention the language" and few more. I actually didn't pay much attention at the time.
However, it was strange - I don't think I've ever seen guidance like that pop up for tags. But also, I don't think I've edited the tags for a regex question. I tried today to post a dummy question about regex but I don't get any guidance for it.
Wait, maybe this was the guidance I saw. It is actually there in the question. I don't post questions much, so I didn't look on the right side...
there's related warnings when you tag a question [sql], title "SQL pls help" and body "i have sql problem"
Perhaps there are. I haven't seen them. Also, haven't edited SQL question's tags, similarly to how I hadn't edited regex question's tags (as far as I can remember, at least). I was wondering is this new(-ish)? Or did I just never stumble upon it for a while?
Please review all answers at stackoverflow.com/q/6047149/2943403 you may find some to be delete-worthy.
09:46
@VLAZ AFAIK it's not.
Looking at the Questions posted today with the regex tag seem to suggest that the tip isn't always working.
@double-beep OK, thank you. I just got curious about it. I honestly think it's a neat feature. Then again, it is also somewhat strange to pop up using the 10k Edit flags feature. I'm not the author of the question and I'm just adding a missing tag. Not sure why it prompted me with guidance on how to use said tag.
@Scratte let's generalise - a lot of people just don't post good questions despite all the information for how to do that. And the regex tag is probably the worse there. If we could somehow fast-track closing questions with that tag, that would improve the quality of the site...
@VLAZ perhaps because you'd better VTC?
@VLAZ I noticed that a lot of them did have an engine tag :) I like the tip. I'm thinking it works for most of the cases. It did blow my mind that there's 225K Questions on regex though. Honestly I think most of those that need explanations would probably have been better off using a site that explains any regex. I remember trying to work a new expression out some times ago. it was just for fun though, so I put it off.
@Scratte yeah, there are lots of questions. And a lot are "write this regex for me". A lot are also absolutely trivial - not just the requests for regex but also request for explanation. There is a "What does this regex mean" question that lists the basic patterns and frequently rather basic questions get dupe'd to it. After all, why would we want to answer "I need a regex for 5 digits" (seriously...)?
10:01
@VLAZ I image the energy versus rep is in favour when doing a cost/benefit analysis.. ? :)
Also, I don't get to say this often (or at all) but Wiktor Stribiżew does an amazing job for the tag. Can we vote to give him like a second bigger gold badge hammer or something? Because his sees a lot of work
@halfer If ; wasn't so widely used for code, one could map both ; and : to : ;)
@halfer (side note: fix the tag) I just flag those as Needs focus.
@Scratte on my Linux terminals I have few aliases for typos cd.. to cd .. and sudp to sudo. I mess these a lot :/
10:19
@VLAZ Fair enough, thanks
Oh, don't get me wrong - the "I need code for this" type questions can really be flagged as both. To me, the "needs focus" reason is more applicable but I don't mind "needs clarity". It's a bad question at the end of the day, I'd rather it get closed. If we had a more specific reason that was "don't ask us super general questions but actually write code then ask", I'd pick that.
The list of custom reasons is to be kept down, unfortunately
10:34
The needs focus is just confusing in my opinion.
Yeah. It's also tedious to write them all the time. Time spent on picking a close reason is usually just wasted.
@Scratte and yes. It is. I don't like the re-wording of it "Too broad" was better.
@VLAZ I try to think of the message that is given to the author. "This question currently includes multiple questions in one. It should focus on one problem only." makes no sense to me if there's only one question.
We could try to create a new feature-request for "Bring back 'Too broad'" :)
That's just one of the problems, true. At least before the recent rewrite it did mention other problems with focus, alluding to broad questions. But the whole "needs focus" is super abstract anyway. It tries to collect few reasons in itself and IMO fails badly at expressing exactly what's wrong. It...needs focus.
@DavidBuck judging by the answer, it can also be closed as "cannot be reproduced". I voted for "Needs Clarity" already, though.
@VLAZ Certainly could go either way. Can only hope that if they get a couple of questions closed it might encourage them to read the 'how to ask' docs
Related to confusing design decisions have a look at the side bar. The bottom link "Triage needs to be fixed" is slightly more prominent than the rest. I was losing my mind trying to figure out if I was seeing things or not. But no here is the second to last link also slightly highlighted.
Why is it highlighted? Because it's visited. I had to dive into the HTML and compare what's different to figure it out.
It would not occur to me that if a link is more visible than before, that I've already seen it.
10:51
@VLAZ Virtually imperceptible design elements seem to be a waste of anyone's time, counterintuitive, virtually imperceptible design elements even more so.
For reference, here is the light theme. The same style is applied there. Also, to be as clear as possible, I clicked on one of the main meta links. "CEO Blog" has the same style as "Question Close Updates" and "Triage needs to be fixed urgently". If you don't see any difference between those and "Introducing the Moderator Council", then neither do I.
I think this is browser dependent. There's no difference to the entries in mine (Opera). Light nor Dark mode. I also have no difference in visited versus non-visited links.
@Scratte interesting. It does apply the color: var(--black-900) CSS rule, so it's possible this is not handled uniformly. I was trying this in Firefox.
11:19
@VLAZ I've just tried Questions in both Edge and Chrome. I see an every so slight difference, when I'm not using private mode.
11:49
@Makyen Thank you. I was trying to find grants given from outside the script itself. It's surely easy to manipulate the script though :)
12:06
@karel Binned your dupe request. The OP deleted the target
12:28
@Scratte What did you mean when you said to add screenshots of the reviews? Can't you see them by going to the link?
@Machavity Thanks for voting.
@karel After saying that I realized it probably had an actual dupe. Closed either way
13:15
@Dharman Not if the answer is removed and I wasn't the one that did the reviiew. Then it just says "answer not found".
@Scratte huh that is interesting.
@Dharman I'm making a screenshot :)
I've got a client that I've asked for a screenshot of stuff... and he's taken it quite literally and used his phone... I just don't have the heart to say anything...
@Dharman This is how it looks like for mortals 26038402 sorry.. I used a program, not a camera :D
@Scratte I can't see anything. Can you draw a red circle?
13:35
@Dharman I can do even better 26038402 with red circle and more
2
I was reading the What is a bounty? How can I start one? page. And I found a little oddity. It says "the highest voted answer created after the bounty started with a minimum score of 2". Is that sentence just missing that any existing answer can be edited? Or does it really mean that existing answers even if edited, doesn't qualify?
@Scratte Probably they just found it extremely wordy.
Probably it needs a bullet list.
@Braiam Ok. So edits count too? :)
@Scratte that's just related to the auto-rewarding stuff
answers existing before the bounty don't get considered as presumably the bounty offerer would have already offered it with the reason to award an existing answer...
so it's only creation dates that count IIRC
14:09
@JonClements Yes :) That doesn't mean I'm not curious. What if I have a Question and I'm not happy with its existing answers even if they are upvoted by others. Then I put a bounty on it, and one of the existing answers makes a super edit. Unfortunately I then get hit by a bus and I.. ohh..
Search for auto awarding @Scratte
@Braiam Thank you. Going though it :)
personally, I'd like to get rid of bounties. From my experience, they don't tend to lean towards great Q&A's, it leads to people expecting to getting an answer (that they've "paid" for) and we go through the whole "it's just an ad... please read more about them" thing time and again, and it potentially if a question didn't get closed in the 48 hours before one can be offered, ends up as a way of effectively locking a post from community closure.
(not mention for those that still hunt "easy rep" - leads to people answering the vaguest/rubbishy stuff that doesn't help anybody etc...)
Heh, I got some of my rep from easy C# bounties ... feels offended ...
Curators only see the last bit. Strange answers to bountied Question. But this is not exclusive to bountied Questions though.
14:21
(and then also some leaves some sour tastes in people's mouths where they have indeed done a great job with a phenomenal answer, but only get half the bounty amount because the OP couldn't get to a keyboard etc...)
Well.. that's sort of not really a problem, the way I see it. If I spend a day answering a Question to the best of my ability, there's no guarantee that it's a great answer. Even if others agree with me that it's the "best answer ever!". I thought the deal was to answer (bounty or not).. and if someone finds it useful, that's just bonus
The majority of people share that attitude... heck, I answer some stuff with no expectation of votes at all, if I get an upvote, that's a bonus to me.
I found something interesting. If a Question is deleted after the bounty ends, the bounty is refunded to the bounty giver? Q: "What happens if a question where I awarded a bounty later gets deleted or migrated?" A: If the bounty awardee does not get to keep the reputation, or if there was no answer that earned any bounty rep, the reputation is refunded.
14:41
@Scratte When is that from? IIRC, handling of bounties was changed such that the answerer keeps the bounty rep, if they got to keep the rep for voting (i.e the post had been visible for 60 days (precludes migrations), and has a score >=3).
@Makyen From the link by Braiam above :)
It looks like one can start a bounty.. and then if one can delete the Question after the bounty ends, one will get the the bounty back. Leaving it for 60 days would be counter-productive, I'd expect.
Where's the helper for cv-pls?
For get it, I was using the wrong query.
@Scratte This could be worded better. Each time I read it, I think it's saying something it's not. It's intended to say the same thing I was saying, but doesn't explicitly state the conditions under which "the bounty awardee does not get to keep the reputation".
@Makyen So my self-deleted Question to get the bounty back does not work? :)
@Scratte If there are fewer than 2 answers, there are no answers which received an upvote, and the bounty was never awarded, then you should be able to delete the question to get the reputation back.
14:58
cv-pls.pieterhordijk.com isn't the page where cv-pls helper resides anymore, is the stackapps post wrong? stackapps.com/questions/3298/cv-pls-helper-chrome-extension
@Braiam Are you looking for the Request Generator userscript? You can find links on the tools page. Note that the alpha version is recommended, unless you are using Greasemonkey as your userscript manager on Firefox.
@Makyen could you edit stackapps.com/q/3298?
@Braiam No, it's not the same thing.
There currently aren't StackApps posts for our scripts. I'll see if I can put ones together.
15:15
Ok
@Makyen think the rules were changed regarding that
We will not test it :D Incidentally.. what's the estimated cache-blame-period for this bountry had ended versus there is an open bounty?
I'm still getting back into the swing of things regarding the minutia and all that, but I clearly remember discussions in the mod room regarding how there was potentially loop hole in some stuff and how we should deal with it and changes were made
@JonClements If they were, the meta Question was not updated.
maybe "clearly" was incorrect - still playing catch up in some ways
15:50
The referenced text starts with "If the question or any bountied answer gets deleted, as of February 2018, the rules have changed:", if you want to search for it.
16:47
@Dharman Thanks for notifying me.
17:01
@user12986714: no. Don't request a deletion but rather
@user12986714: A deletion does not do enough to control the infection, and it must be fully eradicated, including the poster and possibly their address.
@user12986714 Where's the spam link on this post?
@Scratte the "Example picture"
@user12986714 What? How can that be spam???
@Scratte Also see revision history
@user12986714 It's an image..
17:07
@Scratte What is in it? it says "personality test"
I disagree that the second one is span. it is definitely a low quality post
that lacks effort
@user12986714: that doesn't matter -- the image is not a spam link and you should retract your request. That is wholly inappropriate and can have serious repercussions for the poster, unwarranted repercussions.
@user12986714 I imagine they're asking for "Essentially, a radio button list with a unique styling." with an image to show what they want.
Room owner: please delete this request
@user12986714: only flag as spam and request that others do the same on posts that represent real spam. If you're not sure, then leave it alone. You can do real harm with this and so it should not be cast about lightly.
2
17:15
^^ +1
I'm guessing he/she has left the room
It's just a learning experience. I'll make come coffee.. with øl
^^^+1 (retracted) I was hunting down the user; he/she posted another spam post... I will be more careful then
We try to avoid targeting users. Reflects poorly on the room
I do understand where you are coming from though
What you could do is if you are not sure check for a second opinion, or as mentioned before. just leave it be.
@Scratte Coffee all gone! Øl all gone! :(
17:20
<waffle> @Scratte
there's always time for tea :P
I always seem to forget those commands
lol
@Nkosi I think Smokey doesn't want the @ in those commands.
!!/coffee Nkosi
@AdrianMole brews a cup of Macchiato for @Nkosi
ahhhh
i guess that is the part I keep forgetting
I have enough coffee and tea for everyone. I was joking about øl. I never have øl :)
17:42
@user12986714 Even if SmokeDetector reports several posts from the same user, the discussion is generally not done with the id or username. When we find that a user has several posts with the same problem, the user is normally referred to as "this same user". If you didn't read it already, there's a room faq linked at the top right.
17:53
1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null, that's not spam
18:03
@JonClements There were some rules changes in early 2018, which closed up the egregious hole of a question author being able to award the bounty on the first answer and immediately delete the question. Now, if the bounty has been awarded, then the question can't be deleted.
18:23
There may have been other changes, but I didn't find a meta about them.
I'm beginning to think that a bountied question cannot be closed until not only the bounty has ended, but the graceperiod too.
@Scratte It can't be close-voted until the post notice about the bounty has been removed. That will happen at some point after the bounty has been awarded. There's a task which runs periodically which cleans up the end of bounties.
@Makyen Oh!.. Thank you :) I think in this case it will happen after the graceperiod, as I suspect Question author is not awarding the bounty.
18:43
@Scratte np. Just FYI: the clean up can be several hours after the grace period expires. I haven't double-checked, but the task to clean things up may only run every 12 hours, or some other significantly longer than expected period (e.g. maybe every 8 hours). I haven't done the research to determine how often it happens, but it's in the only a couple/few times a day ballpark.
@Makyen No worries. I was under the wrong impression that the Question could be closed as soon as the bounty had ended, due to the conversation yesterday. I can stop checking if I can flag it every 5 minutes now :)
@Scratte Yeah, I went through the process of determining when you could close-vote/-flag when I added having a bounty as an error when sending a request from the alpha Request Generator. Unfortunately, the change in the post notices broke that check in the Request Generator (it was scraping the page). I only noticed the breakage after the most recent update. The next update will fix that. Without fetching data from the SE API, the indicator is that all post notices about bounties are removed.
18:58
I really wish there was something stronger than a downvote. Or at least something from different pool of votes, because sometimes I feel it's just a waste of my downvotes/close votes on some posts. e.g. stackoverflow.com/questions/60562758/…
Well, there's always parsing HTML with regex
@Dharman Meh, I just do what I need to do.
Question. I flagged a post yesterday which starts off with, "I'm not gonna lie, the code is really, really bad. There are so many contradictions and things that don't make sense that it's hard to know where to start with explaining what you're doing wrong." That seemed unnecessarily rude to me. But the flag was rejected. Should I not flag posts like that?
@JeremyCaney Just edit it.
@JeremyCaney Couldn't you just edit it to make it sound nicer?
19:02
It is commentary.
@Dharman Ah, yes, good point. So in cases where there's a rude comment, but the rest of the post is high quality, just edit out the unnecessary and/or rude elements, instead of flagging them for moderator attention?
There
@JeremyCaney Yes, that is why you got the power to edit with 2000 reputation. Use R/A flag only if the whole thing is inherently rude.
Some people are just angry writers. They offend others with words unknowingly.
@Dharman Perfect! That's exactly the type of guidance I was hoping for. (And which, on hindsight, seems obvious.)
I will say, prior to this, I've also left a number of comments like "While you may be right, this doesn't seem especially productive", or "Your snark isn't going to help the OP learn" and I've been impressed by how often the contributor comes back and says, "You're right, I've edited my post".
I would definitely appreciate such comment under my post. As long as you are being constructive and not trying to start a fight then such comments help others become better writers and improve the quality of content.
19:08
@Braiam Thank you, much better.
@Dharman Fortunately, I left "starting fights on the internet for fun" behind in my twenties. I'm far more interested in actually encouraging positive contributions than I am calling people out or drawing battle lines.
@Dharman On a similar note, something else I've found: Ending my comments with an explicit request like, "Would you mind editing your comment?" seems to be a lot more effective than just providing suggestions for how they might improve their post.
@Dharman For example, here's the "script" I've been using for code-only answers: "While it’s acceptable to provide code-only answers, it’s often more useful for the community if you can also provide an explanation of the code and help people understand why it addresses the problem. That can reduce the number of follow-up questions, and help new developers understand the underlying concepts. Would you mind updating your question with additional detail?"
@JeremyCaney Generally, yes, editing out moderately rude portions to save a good post is better, as others have said. If the post is directly insulting/degrading the user, then flagging is appropriate. One significant difference in this post was that the negative comments were about the code, not the user (although the answer does step on the line at least a time or two).
But, there are other posts which just go too far wrt. being insulting, even in otherwise acceptable posts. There have been a very small number of times where I've edited out the insulting part and still raised a custom mod-flag explaining that the issue was in an earlier version (with link), because the insult was too far over the line and really needed a moderator to address the issue with the user. There have also been an even smaller number of times when I've just gone with an R/A flag.
What should I do with this? The edits seem to incorporate fixes from the answer and invalidate the error messages and the answer. Should I vote to close as typo or first rollback. I am not really sure if the problem got fixed finally or if the answer was just addressing side problems.
19:29
@Dharman I'm not an SME, so can't really comment on this specific question, but if an edit invalidates an answer, then the edit should be rolled-back.
I am an SME and even I can't tell.
If it was a fresh question I would vote as off-topic
Is it (or was it ever) reproducible?
@AdrianMole I would need to have their database to be able to reproduce it. Most likely permission issue. I really can't take a guess at what problem they were actually having. I think they were looking for a crystal ball.
@Dharman I cannot claim to know PHP, but the problem seems that mysqli_connect() is returning a boolean for some reason.
I'd roll it back to revision 4. I have no idea what the code does in any way, but this is what I see: Revision 4 had some code. Then an answer was given. Then the answer was edited into the Question in Revision 5. Then conversation continues on the Question about further stuff.
19:34
So does it mean the answer should be a comment instead, because it addressed an irrelevant typo?
That depends :) If it didn't address all the issues, then it was half an answer. But not a comment.
I'm not even sure if $connect is expected to be a boolean or a mysqli.
I hate it when people answer by guessing. I do not know what to do with it then. Clearly the if statement was meant to stop the code in case no connection could be made, but why could the connection not be made?
In one part it seems that bool is expected, in the error it seems to not be
@Braiam mysqli is a terrible API and for some reason it has error reporting switched off by default. However in the case of mysqli_connect it throws a warning and returns false even when error reporting is not switched on.
If the connection can be opened then an object should be returned. If error reporting is switched on and the connection fails then an exception should be thrown.
19:40
> mysqli_prepare() returns a statement object or FALSE if an error occurred.
Why the heck isn't that included in the mysqli_prepare() description!!!11
What isn't? How to switch on error reporting?
Wait, it is in the description... forget about it.
@Dharman Yeah, from the examples I'm seeing, it seems that die isn't the ideal, since it seems to allow php to continue running instead of exiting
It returns linkID or false
die will stop the execution of the script. It's not ideal, because the script should not be killed.
If you want to learn more about how it works I recommend my answer here: Should we ever check for mysqli_connect() errors manually?
Arg, PHP hurts my brain...
No, this is just bad PHP. Don't judge the language by someone's bad coding habits
19:46
My issue with php is that it allows (allowed?) travesties as functional code.
Yeah, there is that, but I think JavaScript is even worse.
20:30
@Makyen Thank you. That guidance is really useful, as is the difference between insulting someone's code versus insulting the person. In other words, we're looking for ad hominem attacks.
I will say, for how much of a reputation as Stack Overflow has (had) for being unwelcoming to new developers, I generally find it quite civil, and especially relative to most other collaborative and social media sites. I've only used the rude/abusive flag a handful of times—and even those cases were borderline.
In fact, for every outright rude or insulting comment I see, I probably see fifty where people are taking an actively mentoring role, helping new developers understand the terminology and concepts.
@JeremyCaney Largely, yes. OTOH, it is possible to go over the line, even just insulting someone's code. It's also easy to be more forcefully denigrating of the code than is needed to get the point across that there are serious problems. To a large extent it comes down to a judgement call. If you feel the person has stepped over the line as to what's appropriate under the CoC, then it's time to flag.
I think a lot (but not all) of the negative rumours on the web about S.O. are from folks who just don't 'get' that it's not a bloggy/chatty site, like reddit or others.
... until, of course, you find chatrooms like the Ministry of Silly Hats or The Tavern.
And then there are those folks who come here with a "Do my homework for me!" question and, when they get negative feedback, they decide we're all a bunch of self-esteemed bullies.
@AdrianMole Yeah, the learning curve seems a bit steep since the everything-goes style discussion forum is the standard. I used to help manage a handful of science outreach groups on Facebook which adhered to a really strict code of conduct (regarding e.g. backing up claims with evidence) and we found similar pushback from people used to just lobbing opinions over the fence as part of unstructured discussion.
@Dharman Is this a good duplicate target for a question asking how to get the first x rows?
@JeremyCaney IMO, Stack Overflow has the reputation for being unwelcoming primarily because people don't like getting downvotes or having their question closed, or just not answered. There's fundamentally no way around that. People are going to feel hurt by those actions, or even just the inaction of getting no answer, even when the concepts are thoroughly explained that downvotes and closure are just how curation of content works and it's not intended personally.
Don't get me wrong, there are times, and there used to be significantly more times, where people were actively rude/insulting/unwelcoming. But, even if every single instance of that went completely away, there would still be a large number of people who feel that Stack Overflow is unwelcoming, because their question wasn't upvoted and answered.
20:42
@Scratte Maybe. Also there is this: stackoverflow.com/questions/3217217/…
@Scratte The key is to actually sort is by one of the columns
@Scratte If it is about any 10 rows, then this would do: stackoverflow.com/questions/8805538/…
slow down :) Thank you. The last one is probably the best :)
I didn't want to just leave a link to the MySQL reference manual
Strangely a search didn't find any of those.
21:33
@MikeM. Do you have a script that find self-dupes? (Worst kind of dupe, IMHO, and always happy to help out on del-pls requests thereto.)
@AdrianMole Unfortunately, no. Just bookmarks, really.
Still, well spotted!
Well, we get a ton of them in [android], so I'm bound to run across a couple, here and there. :-)
Seriously, though, reposts are a huge pet peeve of mine, too, so I'm usually on the lookout for them, consciously or not.
@MikeM. If people downvoted instead of upvoted, then they would be cleaned up by Roomba.
In other words, as long as the sup-question doesn't get an answer, and the question is at a score of -1, then Roomba will delete it after 30 days, without anyone having to manually go through and find them.
21:54
@Makyen That's true, but most users aren't going to catch self-dupes, and some of those posts would actually merit upvotes on their own, being complete, proper questions.
(I mean, in the case of upvotes before the closure, that is.)
@MikeM. True, but they are not being downvoted by the close-voters either, who should know that it's a self-dup. Admittedly, one of those two questions you hammered, so, due to the one upvote, you could have only gotten it to a score of 0, which would have taken 365 days to Roomba, assuming nobody added another comment or upvote.
There are too many Question that need closing and not enough close voters :(
22:12
@Makyen Yep, that's why I made the request for that one. As to close voters not downvoting, well, I'm hesitant to place any blame there, 'cause it's pretty easy to run out of score votes before close votes.
@Makyen Is it possible to delete a Question with an Answer that has a score of 1?
@Scratte I am doing this constantly.
@Dharman Own post.. using the delete option :)
ahh then no
I think that's the trouble with smokey's report.
22:21
@Scratte This doesn't justify defacing it.
@Scratte It's possible for >10k users to vote to delete a closed question with the question or answers having any score, as long as the question's been closed for > 2 days. You can't delete your own question if an non-deleted answer has an upvote, or if there's more than one non-deleted answer.
Sometimes I even roll back deleted defaced posts.
@Dharman I'm not saying it does, I'm saying there's a pattern.
@Dharman Yeah, I do that too. :)
@Makyen I was referring to your comment. It seem slightly inaccurate :)
22:24
@Scratte Which comment?
@Makyen From smokey's.
@Scratte I suspect you mean the sentence: "If permitted to delete, there's a "delete" button below the post, on the left, but it's only in browsers, not the mobile app." That's accurate, as far as I know.
@Makyen Yes. You're right. I think they would have though. If they could.
@Dharman Rolling back deleted posts is possibly a bit dodgy (depending on the exact nature of the defacement, of course).
If I post an answer, then realize it's really daft (like answering the wrong question), I would delete it (of course) and then replace the text body (all of it) with something like, "Oops - Didn't read the Q properly." I know 10K users could (if they're really nosey) still see the edit history, but it (a) keeps the amount of screen space down; and (b) makes it less obvious to 10k-ers how daft I am.
@Scratte I've seen quite a few where they choose to vandalize when they could have deleted. The comment has had several revisions, most of which have been based on vandals not understanding. I'm happy to change it more, if it makes it more understandable, but I'd prefer to keep one comment text that's applicable to all vandalism, because I don't really want to be spending more time/thought on each one.
22:28
@AdrianMole I've done that. Only.. I've just added the sentence on the top, so it's completely clear that I know that my post was stupid :)
@AdrianMole I said sometimes. It depends on the nature of defacement. If you are trying to spare us from reading your nonsense then ok, I don't mind, but if you are only trying to hide your shame then I would prefer if you didn't. It helps us see what was tried before and do not make the same mistakes.
I agree - there's a distinct grey area. But if the edit exposes obscenity, for example, it's OK to roll back, I guess. (Even 10k-ers can be embarrassed!)
@Makyen Nah.. don't change it :) As far as vandalism goes it's a bit silly in my opinion. Also, one could just change it to something that isn't so obvious, if the point was to hide something.
@Dharman Actually, I'm a bit confused now. I just checked one of my 'daft' deleted answers, and I can't roll back without first undeleting it. Can you (or any other 10k-er) do things that I can't? Here's my hidden shame.
@AdrianMole You can not edit a post that you deleted yourself.
22:37
@AdrianMole There are no revisions.
OK - maybe I did that one within the grace period. That would explain!
I can edit it, but there's nothing to roll back to. You must have removed the text during grace period.
How long is the graceperiod?
5 min or first interaction
22:38
@AdrianMole There are some legitimate reasons to deface a deleted post (e.g. preparing it for redacting PII).
To the best of my knowledge, all of the times I've rolled-back vandalized deleted posts have been in response to SmokeDetector notifications of a question being vandalized, and there's no indication of PII.
The system doesn't permit a user to edit a question which they've deleted. I figure that if the question was not deleted, then I would have rolled it back, so I do so even if it's been quickly deleted. Effectively the system doesn't permit the OP to do: delete->vandalize; we're supposed to rollback vandalism; so why should vandalize->delete be allowed?
@Scratte No. You can edit answers that are self-deleted, but you can't edit questions which are self-deleted.
@Makyen You're right! :) I just tried and I was able to..
@EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica Why is that review an issue to bring to our attention? In other words, it looks like something that should be and would be approved as a natural process in the queue.
@Dharman I agree with your review on this one. It was an attempt to answer. The LQP review queue is not supposed to be judging technical accuracy.
@Makyen I also have a cv-pls request and wanted to avoid having it accidentally go to the reopen queue.
@EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica Ahh.. I missed that. Thanks.
Yeah, normally I'd leave it for the queue, but in this case the close votes made it more urgent to be handled
22:53
@EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica Speaking of which, the user has edited code into this instead of the image. Do you still want it closed?
@Makyen Yeah, the request can probably be binned then.
@EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica Yeah, I must admit, that I normally just force it to be accepted or rejected in that situation.
1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null, by request
@Makyen Now, as for sorting through the operator precedence on that if statement... but that's a separate issue.
@EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica Yeah, yuck. Even if the precedence works out to what the user wants, I usually find it's better to use some () to make it more clear what was intended.
Yeah, gives me a headache just looking at it. What are the odds that it's actually doing what the OP expects? If I had more energy right now, maybe I'd try sorting it out.
23:03
Honestly having spent a lot of time reading and writing Java, it's not the operator precedence throwing me for a loop, it's the completely inscrutable magic numbers
I can make complete sense of the boolean logic. The rest of the logic...well, that's another story
oh, no, I see what they're doing wrong...they need to combine those loops into one loop with an if/else...
Are we discussing a ludo game?
they're trying to determine which character should be printed into each location, but they're not actually something on every iteration like they need to be
@Scratte apparently. I'm not familiar with the game, just reading the code :D
@RyanM It's one of my favorite games :) It may be local to Denmark though.
what nation would that be?
I was thrown off by the weird o's in the image. Are you going to answer it?
23:08
@Scratte That looks like The Chinese en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludo_(board_game)
oh they fixed the post, nice, now I can tell them what they're doing wrong without encouraging bad posts
@Scratte yep, I'm taking a crack at it
despite the inadvisability of trying to explain code before lunch
@Dharman This one, is arguably "Looks OK", as you did. However, I chose "Delete", because I felt it was unclear what the answer was saying. The question shows two supposed ways of accomplishing what they want to do and says that they don't want to use one of them. As such, the answer saying, "As far as I know, there's no other way to execute your .BAT file (nor any other "executable" file)", really doesn't make sense, at least to me.
The fact that the began their answer with a question doesn't help. It might have been better to step out of the review queue and vote to delete outside the queue.
@RyanM Notice how there's nothing in the main method :D
@Dharman I'm not surprised. Here we have special fields for jumping the board :)
@RyanM To be honest, I'm not really seeing how they "did not get the right result". I can't see how they could get a result.
23:20
@EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica Turns out the operator precedence logic is correct! I fixed the code and ran it and hey look at that
@Scratte I admittedly had to imagine what the main method probably looked like...
@RyanM Nice image :) You need to remove a few o's :D
oh you're right
it doesn't quite match, ha
well, edited the output into my answer, that's their problem to fix :D
I blame not knowing the game or having eaten :-p
lunch time
This is an interesting bug: stackoverflow.com/a/61705129/1839439
Huh it works fine in Firefox.
Question: How do you treat answers that ask a new (unrelated) question, while simultaneously suggesting an answer? Should we just edit out the question and leave a comment? Or flag it as Not an Answer? Example. Obviously, I'm not talking about cases where they're asking clarifying questions as part of a more comprehensive answer.
@JeremyCaney This is not an answer.
You could salvage the answer by removing the question. The solution was added only in revision 2, which means the original intent was to ask a new question.
23:32
Oops..
I think I'll play it safe and edit the answer, then leave a comment.
IMHO it depends on the circumstances. If the answer was posted to suggest a solution to the original question and asks a follow up question then remove the question from the answer and inform the author why this is wrong. In most cases try to save the answer if possible.
@Dharman Done; I've edited out the question, and left a comment helping instruct the contributor.
@Dharman What was that comment on Smokey's last report all about?????
@AdrianMole AAAAAAAAA.....Fire! Fire! Fire!
23:37
I gave it r/a.
My comment, too?
@Dharman "In most cases try to save the answer if possible" is good guidance, and fits in nicely with the guidance from earlier today regarding otherwise good answers that include rude and unnecessary commentary.
@Dharman Not yet! Please explain, or ...
😉
I removed it. It was just me being silly and adding to the fire.
There should be a "Silly" flag, then.
23:39
There is: no longer needed.
In the reopen queue, I sometimes see Qs that were closed with the reason "not a real question" - I'd like that one back.

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