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12:36 AM
copied and pasted another answer in the same thread
 
 
3 hours later…
 
3 hours later…
7:01 AM
What's the preferred close reason for code in images?
 
@Scratte Usually "unclear".
 
@Makyen That's the same as "Needs details or clarity", right? It's this one: stackoverflow.com/questions/61114956/…
 
@Scratte It's unclear. :-)
 
blurry
 
@rene Sort of like you ;)
@Makyen I was 50/50 on the no MinimalReproducibleExample.. but it kind of felt wrong.
 
7:15 AM
@Scratte Are they asking how to do something or for you to debug code which isn't doing what they expect?
@Scratte A MCVE/MRE is only required if it's a debugging question.
 
@Makyen Honestly they're asking how to do something that impossible :) Once that's "done" meaning moved past, it's sort of a debugging thing :)
 
@Scratte So.... it's unclear what they are asking?
 
@Makyen Not really :) I know their problem and the solution they need. They don't know what they're asking ;) But that's just details. Overall this close reason is much better :)
 
It is unclear what we are chatting. I vote to close this room.
[tag:]
 
7:35 AM
not my fault. Fix the script.
Maybe it doesn't like dashes in tags?
I thought only the mobile one was doing that, but apparently it does so in the desktop version, too.
 
@JohnDvorak Which version of the script are you using? It worked for me. The dash in the tag shouldn't affect the script.
 
The TM dashboard says 1.6.11. TM is trying to update itself - any chance that would help?
On the phone it's 1.8.13; Alpha, IIRC
 
@JohnDvorak Possibly. Although, given that you're using TM and not Greasemonkey, it's recommended that you use the alpha version, which is currently 1.8.13.0.
 
Will try
 
Hopefully it will help. I'm going to be AFK for a while.
 
7:52 AM
I have some more identical answers to different questions, if anyone want to spend their flags.
 
8:08 AM
 
@AlonEitan I don't think so. It looks like a question to Stack Overflow customer support.
 
@Scratte You're probably right, because it was deleted, but my spam flag is disputed
 
@AlonEitan At least it's not declined :) Disputed is my favorite "your flag is wrong" result :)
 
8:34 AM
Is this css angular answer NAA? If not, is it copying content from two other answers?
 
8:50 AM
@Scratte no, it is not enough NAA to have a high chance on a helpful flag. As for the plagiarism ... man, all those answers are subpar, if not useless. That don't need flags, it needs votes, preferable of the delete kind.
 
@rene I can't find my delete vote.. I only have up and down :)
 
9:24 AM
@Scratte use what is available and your judgement ...
 
9:45 AM
\o
 
Might be interesting to folks here: video training resource Pluralsight is free for the month of April.
I moaned earlier in the channel that editing Stack Overflow is a distraction from my professional development. I finally signed up to the above and have created a training schedule for React, Node and some devops stuff. Sticking with it so far...
 
10:08 AM
oh hey I broke 2k close vote reviews.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:09 AM
@RyanM your broke it? does that mean you reopened 2k ? :D
 
11:31 AM
@RyanM I have some glue for you so you can stick to it ...
 
12:06 PM
@rene and where does a blurred flower get glue from? :p
 
@JonClements from the Glue tree?
 
I'll accept that as an answer if Scooby Snack trees also exist? :p
 
morning
 
YOU HAVE A DIAMOND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WELCOME BACK!!!!!!!!!!
 
12:11 PM
@JonClements wha-wha-what happened?
It's me isn't it? I didn't play MTG with you, so you went back to your old habbits?
 
I noticed that myself. A solo closed question tipped me off
 
DON'T MENTION THE DIAMOND!
 
too late
 
glutton for punishment I guess?
 
I hear that Stack Overflow promised to stock the mod vending machine with doggie treats. That probably helped
 
12:14 PM
oh darn - rumbled :(
 
Elected 2020, but that points back to the 2015 election I guess they should update the GUI to include more text
 
@Adriaan yeah it's odd... happened with Ed as well... system's just not designed to do it
guess I can claim first elected mod in 2020 or something? :p
 
That's nice. The blue username fits well with the blue eyes :)
 
(ironically - looking at my user history - I've won 2 elections)
 
huh? actually won 2 elections or it just appears so? Ahh.. the link says "This election ended Apr 21 '15 at 20:00" :)
 
12:31 PM
@rene I'm playing a bit of a catchup - so apologies if you guys need to bear with me a bit
would be nice to get a meeting with the RO's at some point and get back to being your advocate kind of thing
 
@JonClements As long as you don't play with Ketchup ...
@JonClements I'll drop it in the backroom. I assume no objections ...
 
thanks my flowery friend
 
No objection here
 
don't make it look easy ;)
 
oh, um, ok, I can do this. Objection! Sub clause 4 paragraph 8 bullet 12 subsection 7 states that a mod shall not call for a meeting until 60 days after they are elected. There is also Gunr2171 Vs SOCVR which has set precedence that all meetings shall have a meeting to plan on who should be invited to the main meeting
 
12:45 PM
lmao
@NathanOliver Puppy rule #1 overrides that or something? :p
 
@NathanOliver just don't make me make up Puppy rule #1 :p
 
Isn't it: Show puppy eyes, get out of anything.?
 
/me shows puppy eyes and looks around for scooby snacks...
 
must... resist.. mus.. can't.. /tosses scooby snack
 
1:01 PM
woof woof woof!
 
1:25 PM
@JonClements howdy!
 
@TylerH howdy!
 
Think I've finally settled on a decent replacement color set for the announcements box: i.stack.imgur.com/YLqZY.png Might do a bit more tweaking but this is a solid start
 
@TylerH mustard coloured?
 
I miss the background colour on quote blocks :( Just indentation with a grey line is much less visible IMO
 
@JonClements it's gold but yeah it's a bit less turdy looking than the yellow SO chose
 
1:38 PM
@TylerH Keep polishing ;-)
 
yessir!
 
Have I formatted that undelete request correctly?
 
@Lankymart Yes it looks like it
 
@Lankymart problem is that it's A) linking to an answer, B) it's your own answer.
 
@Adriaan oh, I should scroll down more :-)
@TylerH @Lankymart binning per our rule on no action requests for posts where you are involved (see socvr.org/faq#GEfM-no-requests-youre-involved)
 
1:45 PM
Right okay, so just create a new question and add it myself then and bum the existing question off?
Just seemed silly to delete it.
 
Tay
So is this a place where I can sortof "sandbox" my question and get opinions if its good or not?
I remember someone saying something about that
 
@Lankymart That sounds like a good plan looking at the simple nature of the question
 
I don't usually answer questions like that because there is always a canonical question, but in this case, couldn't find one, so I answered it.
 
Tay
I posted a question here, could anyone review it. Im pretty sucky at asking questions. stackoverflow.com/questions/61122819/…
 
@Tay it's not much of a description TBH. It's basically "Please debug" without any hint as where to start looking
 
1:58 PM
Does anyone know how this 11-rep non-OP comment happened?
 
@AndrasDeak (very) recent rep loss due to sock puppet removal? No clue otherwise
 
@AndrasDeak Is there a deleted answer from the same user?
 
@Adriaan That should be public...
@Scratte nope
I'm stumped
 
Tay
@Adriaan I edited it
 
@Tay bit better. You'll want someone with javascript knowledge to help you further though, as I don't have a clue what I'm looking at.
 
Tay
2:01 PM
RIP
Thanks for that though.
 
@AndrasDeak Spooky :) That reminds me that I see users with 1 rep creating Questions on meta. How does that happen?
 
@Tay no problem. What I find a good strategy, is to read the question back to yourself. Then assume you know nothing of the problem (you do know Javascript of course, I mean like talking to a colleague or someone). Then think: does this give me enough information to understand the problem? Jon Skeet wrote a good post about asking questions: tinyurl.com/stack-hints
 
@Scratte there's some obscure path to asking an auto question or something...might be that
 
I don't think rep loss due to activity within the day will show btw. If they got rep today and lost it today, I don't think it will show.
 
@AndrasDeak The user probably posted it as an answer, and a mod converted it to a comment
 
2:04 PM
@Scratte Not that long ago, the configuration was changed such that anyone can ask a question on Meta about their own question.
 
@TylerH But there is no answer on the post. When my answer once was converted, the answer was still there.
 
Tay
@Adriaan thanks a bunch
 
@JonClements Welcome back!
 
@TylerH those answers should stick around, saying that this happened. Shouldn't they?
 
@Makyen Must be an option on Questions that I'm not aware of.
 
2:05 PM
@AndrasDeak @Scratte No; when an answer is converted to a comment, no trace of the answer is left behind
At least as far as I recall
 
@TylerH You're making me want to fetch that old answer of mine :D
 
@Scratte I'm not sure if there's a special part of the UI just for it or not.
 
@TylerH That would explain it then. But I clearly remember a banner saying "answer convertes to a comment"
 
maybe @JonClements remembers
 
Oooh puppy to the rescue! *flashes the puplight*
 
2:07 PM
@Makyen Then how does the system know what a user wants to ask a question about their question?
 
The people demand answers :P
 
@AndrasDeak When an answer is converted to a comment, a deleted answer is left behind states as the deleted reason that it was deleted because it was converted to a comment, or at least that's what used to happen.
 
That's what I thought too
 
@Makyen Hmm, I don't remember seeing that before. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough :-D
 
2:10 PM
Let's ping a moderator to convert some of our answers to comments :-P
 
> This answer is hidden. This answer was deleted and converted to a comment 7 years ago by casperOne.
 
Well, if that system is still the same... is there a grace period for comments like there is for answers?
but no, the user doesn't even have 50 rep like you said
the comment hasn't been edited, so the user couldn't have flagged as a duplicate and then edited the comment to read the way it currently reads.
I think the only possible explanation is it was posted as an answer and maybe auto-converted to a comment or manually done so by a mod and the system for converting answers to comments has changed... though I'm not convinced about that, either
 
I found it.. I guess it's too late :D
 
what did you find?
 
@TylerH There's no grace period for comments, or at least there didn't used to be one...
 
2:15 PM
@TylerH The old answer of mine that was converted.
 
@Makyen I would agree, because one doesn't really make sense; you can still comment on closed posts
@Scratte ah
@SamuelLiew any idea what is going on here? chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/49070312#49070312
 
@TylerH 15 rep for flags
 
@AndrasDeak heh, well we are doing a good job at eliminating all the possibilities!
 
@Savior linebreaks kill most markdown
 
@AndrasDeak *in chat, that is
 
2:18 PM
@AndrasDeak thanks was wondering what I did wrong :p
 
@Adriaan well...yeah
 
ouf
downloading that user script lol
 
Oops..
 
2:37 PM
@Adriaan OT... but are you up for a 3-some (sounds wrong even when I say it!) in Trine 2 at some point?
 
@JonClements Oh Jon, you make that sound so lovely
@JonClements sure thing. I'll go check whether it runs at all on me laptop tonight. As I don't have steam launched by default on my private machine, do drop me a message in chat (here, or the MATLAB room) during office hours before playing ;)
 
@Adriaan just message you on steam maybe?
 
@JonClements problematic if he doesn't have Steam running...
 
@JonClements well, as I said, I haven't got that launched most of the time. So unless you want me to read it 2 weeks after the fact, it's better to drop me a message here that you want to play at a given time, and then I'll launch steam to continue the discussion
or what the laughing face says :P
 
2:44 PM
@TylerH just rub my stupid logic in why don't ya :p
@Adriaan ok
 
@JonC how's life without the pub going for you louts that side of the pond? My local, an Irish pub, has been shut for a month. Giving me the shakes every evening when I can't go for me pint after work...
 
@TylerH no idea, looks like a bug
 
@Adriaan I miss the pub to see people Friday's and have a few - miss personal company. But, otherwise, it's okay, got a few things in the "drink cabinet" and if I want can always have one of those instead - just not the same
 
@JonClements I recognise the feeling. We have a strong (50 persons is "a few") Friday drinks (vrijmibo, ask @rene) at work. Especially with this weather I miss standing on the roof, and having a pint with a view on the Alps across the lake. We attempted to go digital, i.e. everyone home-drinking and chatting over Zoom, but that feels different.
 
@Adriaan don't forget the bitterballen ...
 
2:59 PM
@rene Problem is: we can only get those in the Holländische Lädeli, which is closed due to the current situation
 
@Adriaan well, time to brush off your homecookery skills
 
@SamuelLiew interesting. Thanks! cc @AndrasDeak
 
@TylerH thanks!
I don't care for the platform so anyone is welcome to report the bug
@Adriaan Dutch Lidl?
 
3:15 PM
@AndrasDeak "Lädeli" is Swiss-German for "little shop".
 
I thought Jon was no longer a mod
 
@Dharman Mods can request reinstatement if they want
 
@Machavity I feel like this should be announced on Meta. The page now says elected 2020 stackoverflow.com/users?tab=moderators
It confuses people
I haven't voted for anyone in 2020. This is not an election.
 
@Dharman Minor bug; if you click it, it goes to the proper election (2015)
 
If the same was with presidents, imagine how surprised you would be to find out George W. Bush is now a president.
Don't get me wrong, I welcome more mods, I am just not happy with how secretive they get reappointed.
 
3:31 PM
@Dharman you can address your concerns on the mod reinstatement process post over on MSE.
@Dharman that ... could only be an improvement, right?
 
FWIW there is already a bug report for this issue, though it wasn't really resolved or even addressed by staff, just another mod: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/378425/…
 
@Dharman That system has a few bugs
And I'm just glad we're not having to guess who this mod is anymore
 
@Machavity oh thank heavens. That name change annoyed me to no end
 
@Dharman not really, I don't follow politics of just any random nation far away from home.
Although if we suddenly had a president in the Netherlands, I'd sure be surprised as to what'd happened to our king...
 
@Adriaan to be fair I don't think the US counts as 'any random nation far away from home' :-) The US affects pretty much every nation (though as a US citizen I wish we'd not do that so much)
@Dharman If you support their ability to step down of their own accord then surely you must also logically accept their ability to request reinstatement of their own accord which is then approved and vetted by every other moderator on the entire network?
considering they were elected for life (barring, you know, breaking the rules or something naughty)
 
3:45 PM
@TylerH buh. Barely. And I certainly don't care for all the changes of spokespersons in the White House we hear of through our news agencies. It's pretty irrelevant to us. If only they'd spent all those pages and people on German politics, that'd be much more relevant to us, as they are our largest neighbour, and if they say "jump" to the EU, we ask "how high"
 
@TylerH Why? We allow politicians to step down, but they have to be reelected. Even Judges that get lifetime appointments and step down can't just reappoint themselves. Not saying I'm actually against the process, but I can definitely see why some people do.
 
@NathanOliver the system for politicians is different so that's not really a good comparison
 
It's not that the process needs a jury, it's that the jury operates behind closed curtains, and the only thing that squeezes through the curtains is a nah or nope answer.
 
in our system, at least, politicians aren't elected for life but for fixed terms. Likewise they and even politicians in systems that are elected for life don't have the ability to request reinstatement by their peers/bosses.
 
3:50 PM
@TylerH I think you may be exaggerating a bit. Though most people may know about the US president, lots of people have no idea what he does or how it works or doesn't work. Keep in mind that most people are in fact living below the poverty line and they don't care who's running a country they will never see.
 
Actually they do, it's just that politicians' bosses are the people, so the reinstatement process is called 'elections' in real life :-)
 
@TylerH Hence the judge example that are "elected" for life
 
but on Stack Overflow moderators answer to the company, not to the users (in that sense)
@NathanOliver right, see the second part starting with Likewise
 
Yeah, I tend to look at them like judges. A judge might retire, but still serve as a judge from time to time because they once were a judge and so they should know how things work
 
So, when a mod who has retired/resigned requests reinstatement, that request is somehow 'broadcast' to all other mods on the network; and, if there are no (or less than x) objections, they get their Diamond back? Or does it work like a review queue?
 
3:52 PM
@Scratte I don't mean it affects them personally whether the POTUS is Trump or Sanders (for example). I mean the US influences the actions of every nation... so who is in charge of the US does ultimately have an effect on other nations and their citizenry
 
@AdrianMole I think it's all mods for that site. I don't think a mod from SO would know or care about reinstatement on, say, TWP.SE
 
@AdrianMole Yes, either employees mention it in The Teachers Lounge or send out an email, I suppose
@Machavity in the MSE post I am fairly certain they specified "any mod on any site"
 
@TylerH True, but that's also true for many other nations. The policy of some very small ones even effect the world.
 
because mods on the relevant site may not be privy to some damning information or exchange
 
@TylerH That's where I got the "all sites" info" from, too.
 
3:53 PM
@AdrianMole process is detailed here: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/336175/…
 
@Adriaan Yes, I particularly enjoyed it a year or three back when Trump met with Merkel and the headlines read "Trump meets with leader of the free world" :-D
 
@TylerH I am supporting this decision. I am merely surprised. I saw no information an now I see a "new" old diamond. I don't know whether this is a system glitch or I missed some important news.
 
@Dharman I do agree some more notice of some kind would be helpful
I didn't even realize when I saw Jon in here that he had a diamond again until you mentioned it
 
4:15 PM
I look forward to a new election btw :) Maybe it would be good to have a few more to share the workload. If one comes this year, the 2020 will be more believable too ;)
 
@Scratte You seem to have made an impression on Meta
5
 
4:40 PM
@Machavity I think I need a gin&tonic.. I don't have tonic.
 
@Scratte No tonic, no problem - just add extra gin! :-)
... which reminds me, time to bash a lime and crack a bottle of beer! (And, yes, it is Corona.)
 
@AdrianMole I went for straight gin, but then I found an old bottle of Suktinis from Lithuania. That seemed to have done the trick :)
 
Kippis!
 
@JohnDvorak If the title changes to "What are the pitfalls of pointers?" Would it then still be OB?
 
4:54 PM
not OB, then. Roger.
 
@JohnDvorak I'm torn. On the one hand, you basically can't program without pointers (at least at some level) and there are very valid and techincal reason to not use owning raw pointers. On the other hand it's overall too general for me. I'm going to leave it alone
 
"too general" would be a different close reason.
 
Is referring to questions as "gimme teh codez" banned in del-pls requests too, or just in cv-pls requests?
 
@JohnDvorak It certainly is OB to a degree - but many Qs on SO are. IMHO, that question has elicited some very helpful answers for any future visitors.
 
@EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica AFAIK, just close reasons but I don't see why you really need it in a delete request.
 
4:57 PM
true - but what answers it has generated doesn't guarantee anything about the answers to come
 
Then maybe it's a possible candidate for protection (or even to be locked)?
 
point
 
I'd be down with a lock
 
Is locking something only mods can do?
 
yes
 
5:01 PM
thought so
 
no bad answers so far, I suggest keeping it as is
protection can be done by 15kers, but only after bad answers have appeared
 
@EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica "Gimme teh codez" has consistently been considered derogatory by some people and mentioned in room meetings (more than one, IIRC) as something that people don't want to see, particularly in requests. So, yes, it's something that shouldn't appear in requests.
 
5:28 PM
If you have to ask is X banned just assume it is. Otherwise you run the risk I add yet another rule for it in 6 to 8 minutes.
 
5:41 PM
would a comment at the question be ok? something like: "Welcome to Stack Overflow, your question asks to "GIMMY THE CODEZ", but that doesn't work here and will get

your question **down-voted** and eventually **closed**. You need to write your own code and once you run into a specific problem then use Stack Overflow to ask for help for that specific problem. As your question is written now it is way to broad. Please read [**How to Ask a Good Question**](http://stackoverflow.com/help/how-to-ask) and find out how to use this site [**Taking the Tour**](http://stackoverflow.com/tour)"
sorry about the formatting
 
I wouldn't. It makes you a target
 
@Vickel Chat messages which contain a soft return don't render Markdown, except in some specific cases.
 
@NathanOliver I'll remove the part ", your question asks to "GIMMY THE CODEZ", but that doesn't work here and will get your question down-voted and eventually closed"
 
@Vickel In one word: No. Keep in mind you're talking to someone that's potentially struggling. They have no idea how to write the code. If they did, they wouldn't ask. (Maybe some do, but that's not the point). I'd pick something much more polite, like: Please understand that we cannot write your code for you. It would be a disservice. You need to write your own code...
..I'd also remove the Welcome to Stack Overflow. It seems kind of.. off.. when you start with Welcome and then proceed to tell them, that they can't get what they came for :)
 
@Vickel It depends on what you write and where you use it. Personally, I think the text you're suggesting is too strong and isn't coming from a point of view of helping the user learn what works on SO. While I can understand that there's a considerable amount of frustration with people asking for code, it's much better to write an auto-comment such that it's from a more positive/helpful stance. Just using the wording "GIMMY THE CODEZ", particularly in all caps, could be felt to be derogatory.
Instead, you could say something like "It looks like you're asking us to write your code for you".
In addition, the only type of questions which require code are debugging questions. If someone is asking "how to" do something, then code isn't required. In such questions, code often helps to make the question clearer and narrow it down to something that's answerable, but there isn't a code requirement.
 
5:54 PM
@Scratte I've updated the canned comment. I'm only using the "welcome" part for new users
 
I've been trying to formulate a good "Stack Overflow is not a free code-writing service" canned comment, but I'm afraid that's one canned comment I do not yet have
 
It kind of reminds me of "Welcome to blah company. We treasure our customers, and we value your call. You are now number 7649"..
 
@Makyen thanks for the input, I'll re-re-write the comment in a little, have a call right now
 
I want to craft a comment that conveys "your request is very entitled and disrespectful of the time that answerers are giving you for free" while simultaneously being polite/respectful myself.
haven't yet figured out how to strike that balance
 
@Makyen I like that. If it must be canned maybe: I'm sorry. We cannot help you on homework questions unless you show us what you did, how it's working (actual behaviour) and how you'd hope it would work (expected behaviour). Your Question may be closed, but that will give you time to edit and update it.
 
6:01 PM
A lot of them aren't homework, they're actually "please write (my app|my feature) for me"
but I like the rest
 
ninja'd
 
@RyanM You can have more than one canned comment, you know :)
 
I have 18 so far ;-)
some are, in fact, quite similar...technically, it's 16 canned comments and 2 canned suggested-edit rejection reasons
 
@RyanM I have about 50.. in a text file. I'm not even using a script for them. I merge and modify them depending on the situation. I need to use a script really, but it has to be merge-able between several canned ones and modifiable before submitting.
 
@RyanM Yes, some are. In fact, some come across rude and entitled. However, that doesn't mean that your comment, particularly an auto-comment, should be anything other than polite and an attempt to educate the user as to what will be more effective on SO.
 
6:05 PM
@RyanM I agree with @Makyen. When someone seem very arrogant to me, I choose to not say anything.
 
@Scratte That sounds at least considerably like the AutoReviewComments - Pro-forma comments for SE script. It doesn't do that great a job for merging, but you can easily copy and paste in additional portions as you edit.
 
@Makyen to follow up the GTC questions comment (only for GTC): "That's not how this site works. We can help you sort out specific issues with your existing code (which means that you need to post your attempt and describe the issue), but we're not here to write it all for you. SO isn't a free coding service. Please read... "
still too unfriendly??
 
@Makyen I didn't try it out yet. If I have to go fetch and copy'n'paste, "my system" is already working that way :D
 
@Vickel That's considerably better.
 
@Vickel That reads OK to me
 
6:07 PM
good
updated then
 
I do think the "not a free coding service" is important, since we are arguably trying to educate engineers how to behave everywhere, not just at Stack Overflow.
 
@Makyen Yep, I agree 100%! I noted above that I'm trying to figure out a response that does exactly that. I want them to understand why it's disrespectful and how they could avoid it when asking for help in the future.
 
@Vickel I like that more. I'd remove the "free coding service" still. But I may just be very.. polite?
 
The desire for free work might be lazy, but it's worse than that - it breeds a helplessness in engineers who think they can always get by with minimal work, or profiting from other people's labour.
 
@Scratte I go with @halfer
 
6:09 PM
I would go along with @Scratte You don't need the last bit, and it does seem impolite.
 
How about "Readers might get the impression you are looking for a free coding service"?
 
Snarky.
 
That is less direct, but also shows the OP what their question looks like.
 
@halfer great
 
Of course there's a great Shog post on this... meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/372166/…
 
6:11 PM
@AdrianMole You may be right, I can not tell myself. I am quite direct in comments these days. Is there a way of telling a question author that their question appears to be a request for free labour without the possibility of being misinterpreted as snarky?
I think this is a good educational role, but the educational value is diminished if it causes a fight.
 
@RyanM Well, one of the ways that you can soften telling someone that what they are doing is disrespectful, or otherwise makes people feel negatively towards them is to not say things like "that's disrespectful", but keep it about how it makes you, or others feel. Something like: "The wording you used here makes people feel you're not respecting that they are volunteering their time to help you. When they feel that way, they are much less likely to want to spend time helping you."
 
@halfer No. Because it is snarky. There is the implication that it's what they thought of SO. But you don't know what they think :)
 
@halfer I think soft subtlety is the key.
 
@Makyen ooooh, I like that. thanks!
 
@Scratte I don't share your certainty - whether it is snarky is very subjective
 
6:13 PM
@RyanM np
 
Indeed, it does not matter if a question author was looking for free work. Communication is about how it is heard by the reader, not how it was meant by the writer.
 
@halfer That's ok :) I think of it as how do I get the message across with as little friction as possible. If this is a very young person, would this make them cry?
 
That readers are interpreting a question as lazy or a request for free work may be "wrong", but those feelings are real - and they affect whether a DV is given, or help is considered a waste of time..
 
Frankly, a lot of them are lazy requests for free work. But most of them aren't. I see probably 1-5 a day in [android] (depending on how closely I'm watching the tags) where it's really "here is my feature request/app idea" and often any attempt to give a general explanation is met with "okay but could you please show me the Java code?". Most of the bad ones I think are because SO does a really terrible job of teaching people how to ask answerable questions (see Scratte's meta post above)
my kingdom for a prompt as soon as you add [android] with the word "stopped" or "crash" (or, frankly, "crush") that says "hey you should add the stack trace from logcat, here's how to get it"
 
Maybe I'm just thinking of the worst case scenario: Someone has been studying on their own in their room late at night. They've been trying something, but failed. The computer just doesn't understand them and Google isn't helping at all (because when you don't know, you can't search). Then they post on SO. Being new and inexperienced they don't even know how to ask or what to include. And then someone tells them off sort of implying that they didn't do anything themselves..
 
6:24 PM
@Scratte if someone has been studying for hours should at least spend some more time to ask a decent question, and not just for the code (remember we talk GTC questions)
 
@Vickel I know. But sometimes it's just very difficult to understand how difficult it is for someone else :)
 
@Scratte The thing is, I don't think that being a beginner should cause someone to be unaware that if you ask someone about something, one needs to show that thing. I can't go to a car mechanic and say "my car does not work" and expect them to drill down to the issue based on that. Nobody does. But apparently in the virtual world, normal logic is suspended, and I have yet to understand why.
 
also sometimes those GTC questions are a result of poor English knowledge and/or not knowing how to use an automatic translator
 
I certainly know zero about car repair, but explaining what the problem is, in detail, just seems kind of obvious.
 
@halfer I think that happens a lot actually. I called my mechanic and told him: My car will not start. Can you help me with this?.. then he started asking me questions.
 
6:28 PM
Is the problem maybe not that programming is virtual, but that people just aren't comfortable with the (written, virtual) communication medium?
 
@halfer "yesterday my car was working fine, but today it stopped suddenly. I didn't change anything*
 
Yeah, I think there's a range here. I struggle to understand the thought process that leads someone to think "how do I create a quiz app?" (to give an example I've seen several times) is a specific question appropriate for a q&a site.
 
@Scratte Maybe that is the issue, then - question authors are looking for a human voice to iteratively narrow down the problem.
The trouble is that we don't support that on this platform. We want questions ready to go.
 
@Vickel Actually that's exactly what happened with my car :) I had moved it the previous day, and then it wouldn't start.
 
@Vickel except a lot of them are "today it doesn't work" in which case I would fully expect my mechanic to ask me what doesn't work
 
6:29 PM
@RyanM "It's the most effortless strategy, and I have nothing to lose"
 
@Scratte Highly recommend a portable jump starter if you don't have one, saved my neck several times
(at risk of a slight tangent)
 
@RyanM You attached it to your neck? :=/
 
@halfer Maybe I needed to drive to get my...neck...fixed?
 
@RyanM There's no Frankenstein bolts poking out, right? ;-)
I suppose a jump starter could be attached to those.
 
@RyanM I have a subscription. After I talked to my mechanic, I called them. They helped me start the car and I took it to the mechanic. Then he proceeded with questions. Then he asked me to start it. It started perfectly. He then looked at me as if I was crazy :)
 
6:34 PM
@Scratte maybe you tried to turn the key into the wrong direction?
 
@halfer In part it's that, but it's also that most people really don't know how to ask a question with enough context such that it's immediately answerable. It's not a skill that's routinely taught. Most people really only learn that once they start answering questions and realize all the information they need in order to provide an actual answer.
 
I am possibly crazy, but it turned out it needed a new battery :)
 
My money's on the battery getting drained somehow. In my case it happens when I sit on the remote to open the trunk and it somehow reaches the garage from my apartment...then the trunk light drains the battery. But to circle back, you described a specific problem, you didn't just say "it doesn't work".
 
@Vickel lol!.. I'm not that crazy :)
 
In this case, you described enough for someone who doesn't really know cars (me) to apparently guess the problem :-p
 
6:38 PM
@Makyen Yes. That is precisely the point. Some people are almost born with the skill though. Other people seem to never really learn it. Whenever one have a conversation with them, one needs to drag out the information. But I think it's because they don't see that only they see what they see. Not sure I'm making any sense now.
 
@Scratte I think it's called "The Theory of Self" (but that's a sort of psycho-babble term).
 
@RyanM The thing about that particular situation was that it only actually died because I had moved it the day before. It was surely dying, but I think I could have used it for longer, had I not started it just to move it 10 meters. And it was tricky because it started immediately when I was at the mechanic.
 
7:04 PM
Is it still not possible to flag a post as a duplicate for users <50? There's nothing on the privileged page.
 
@Scratte Correct. You need flagging privs, and for that you need 50 rep
 
@Makyen I agree with that, but still wonder why "it doesn't work" is thought to be sufficiently detailed. I am not at all qualified to say this, but I learned not so long back that a feature on the autism scale is not mentioning things you know because if you know them, everyone else must know them too. Even if they are only on your screen and not anyone else's.
Perhaps the question editor should feature a message that says "remember that readers do not know what your system does, they can't see your code, they are not aware of your errors", really spelled out. If question authors are informed that other people don't know what they are working on, perhaps that would improve things.
(Even if, to us, it is so obvious it seems silly to point it out).
 
@NathanOliver Flagging privileges come at 15 :) Comments come at 50. I just read a post that said that flagging as a duplicate doesn't show at 15, because it leaves a comment on the post..
 
@halfer would that fall under us not mentioning things because if we know them, then everyone else must know them too? :-) (I'm being a little snarky but I do think that perspective is helpful)
 
7:12 PM
agree with the general idea that providing the perspective to askers is useful
 
@Scratte Oh, durp. Yeah, not sure what happens there
 
oh interesting...that feels like it ought to be possible
it would help prevent some classes of bad answer
 
@RyanM Good catch :) I'm new enough to have been puzzled about things I was expected to know, but didn't :)
 
@RyanM Certainly that could apply to some of the more arcane rules, yes. But "you need to be explicit about what does not work, show your code and a stack trace" is a first principle, not an arcane rule. I think we let new users off the hook a bit too easily if we think that "questions must be clear" is an unfair starting point.
 
I'd test the dupe-flagging thing, but I don't think there's any way for me to test it without violating the rules...
 
7:18 PM
@halfer That's not unfair at all. But it may be unfair to expect that they know it already. Even if it's obvious.
@RyanM What rule?
 
@halfer I disagree with the "and a stack trace" being obvious. Consider a user developing an Android app that crashes. All that they see is a dialog that says "MyApp has stopped" - the stack trace isn't displayed unless they know where to look for it.
@Scratte well the easiest way to get 15 rep would be sockpuppeting via my main account or asking for upvotes from other users. I guess I could create a second account and just answer random questions until someone accepts my answer, but frankly I'd rather have the rep on this account...
the stack trace not being obvious is why I realllllly want the question interface to show tag-specific advice on how to ask a question
 
@Scratte That is not accurate. You can flag as duplicate with 15 rep. There were some bugs reported which were associated with the comment that was created, but, IIRC, those were resolved.
 
@Makyen Ok. I was reading a post from 2015, where that's the way it was. We must be reading the same posts :)
 
@RyanM The typical way to get a low amount of rep for a test account is editing. Once the edits are approved, you are mostly just dependent on the post not being deleted.
 
ohhh, good call.
 
7:30 PM
@Makyen Yep, the comment is created by the system, not the user, so having less than 50 rep shouldn't be a blocker there
 
 
1 hour later…
8:38 PM
 
@RyanM Stack trace, maybe. But the error text, no - that's my point really. By our experience we know that new users are turning up and writing unanswerable questions, and we are mystified as to how those question authors think their questions are answerable. Missing off, say, a stack trace is forgivable, and the comments will always serve the purpose of some clarifying back-and-forth.
But perhaps we need to understand the mental processes - why is "does not work" thought to be answerable? They came to that conclusion because they wrote it, so what reasoning process did they use, etc?
How is not showing any code at all thought to be answerable?
 
There's a combination of (at least) two effects happening: (1) The Internet Generation has come to consider that any question (no matter how vague or weird) can be answered simply by broadcasting it on the web; and (2) Stack Overflow has a huge reputation for being the place where "all the cool experts" are.
 
@AdrianMole not sure about the cool part...
 
I'm not saying it's true ... just that it's what folks out there think.
 
8:55 PM
@AdrianMole Actually I've been using Stack Overflow for things I didn't understand for a long time. Or for Oracle problems. I've found that sometimes there's something useful, but I usually go for other top google finds first. Then I read a post here, just to get variety. And it helps to read the post from the bottom up, for me.
I could have been coloured by the lack of information to my SQL-errors, though. I once had a colleague tell me that "Stack Overflow is only for Java people".
 
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