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12:54 AM
@Scratte IMHO that's different, because "When will D be updated and what will be new?" is pure speculation - it hasn't happened yet, so it can't be answered conclusively, and the answer will be totally useless once the update does happen. In contrast, the C++17 question does have a definitive, non-speculative (if broad) answer, and the post came with it attached.
 
1:21 AM
@RyanM Right. But even if it is already released, it's very broad. I could ask a Question like "I'm migrating my java application from 9 to 13. What will I need to do?"
@RyanM I'd expect my hypothetical Question to be closed as "Needs focus". It would be very similar to "What are the differences between Java 9 and Java 13?"
 
1:58 AM
@Scratte Certainly if you didn't give a canonical-FAQ-style self-answer that covers how to do so, at least. If you did, I'd probably vote to leave it open personally, at least.
 
2:16 AM
@RyanM I'm not en expert of what's on topic on SO. I would consider it to be high-risk because it may be closed. I just read the post on meta.stackexchange and made a mental connection.
 
 
1 hour later…
 
1 hour later…
4:28 AM
Morning!
 
 
3 hours later…
 
8:00 AM
Is this a good answer? It regurgitates a comment of theirs without much addition.
 
Feels like a Link Only answer to me.
It does link to the official documentation, yes, but they should still be citing the relevant parts. If the URL ever changes it'll be useless to future readers, and would effectively just tell them "try something else". That doesn't help anyone.
 
 
1 hour later…
9:05 AM
\o
 
@halfer Needs [tag:cv-pls]
 
@Kyll Thanks!
Would a RO delete my untagged "Needs Focus stackoverflow.com/questions/…" above please? (I re-raised it)
 
np =D
 
9:30 AM
Merci
 
 
1 hour later…
10:55 AM
Looks like they machine-translated it to the wrong language ...?
 
@tripleee I have no clue why Google translator is mentioned; otherwise their problem looks to be articulated in their own written German; they want months to be displayed in German, not English (i.e. März, not March)
 
or the machine translation was very smart, or very stupid, when translating that particular requirement (-:
 
Does anyone wonder whether their main motivation for editing/closing has become inertia and habit? I am wondering whether most users no longer appreciate post editing, and since there are no mechanisms to prevent woeful material entering the site, I am on a fool's errand.
 
@halfer Are you talking about my request?
 
@Dharman No - just a general question.
 
11:08 AM
 
Honestly, I'm just bored of seeing low quality posts, and hope that one day the community will come together to close them rather that having FGITW's answer them. Give me a question to get my teeth stuck into, and enjoy answering please! Those are the one's that I find i learn from as much as the OP does.
 
I am wondering whether my years of commitment to curation here are broadly pointless, and possibly I am seeing it in the light of new Stack Overflow company initiatives to make closing posts even harder.
 
It's 1000x more useful than what they pay me for at work
 
For every "sorry 4 my english!!!" I remove, 100 more pop up within a day.
 
I've been monitoring quality of posts in the last few weeks, and in the last 2, it has significantly plummeted; based on votes.
 
11:11 AM
I wonder also whether the small endorphin hits I get from editing are distracting me from more productive tasks, like learning a new technology, or committing to a nice side project.
6
 
Last week, only 14.5% of questions asked got a positive score, and it was over 18% 3 weeks ago. Ssme week last year it was 25.5%
 
Everyone should do what you are doing. Then you would have less work to do.
 
So, it's kinda not surprising there's a lot of close votes
 
Unfortunately people are sick of editing the same stuff over and over and lost the patience
I think people are not casting enough downvotes
I think I had 3 or 4 unsused votes yesterday
 
Yes, we desperately need more editors
It would be great if users over, say, 5k could transfer their votes - I rarely use my down/close votes and I would be happy to donate them
But I fear the company would not like that, as it would mean more posts are closed or downvoted.
We probably do need more posts closed and downvoted, given the woeful quality of many of them, but there are the conflicting goals we have to work around
Maybe I will write up a Meta proposal
 
11:16 AM
You have my upvote...and a downvote too
My advice: don't edit posts which are meant to be closed and deleted. This is pointless job. Just close and dowvote and move on.
 
you can already delegate some of your close votes to Smoke Detector, but I think this will be harder to pull off for downvotes - you really have to articulate very specifically under what conditions my votes would be used for me to sign up for this
 
Upvotes and downvotes are down to opinion though. And some people do upvote things that I think are low quality. There's very little guidance on what really denotes a downvote apart from "isn't helpful" or "lacks research". I see a basic question, and a image of a table in all the time, yet they get upvotes. Ther;s no research shown, and certainly the image isn't helpful (in my opinion), but apparently to others they are.
And I'm not going to waste my time transcribing text for the OP, who should have posted it as text in the first place to make it useful.
 
@Dharman Yeah, though I edit a lot of old posts, and they are very hard to close
 
@halfer I know the pain.
 
I am not sure if I were to merely only edit (potentially) good posts, whether it would start feeling useful again
Indeed, perhaps the problem is the long tail of 50-rep users who don't care about anything other than getting an answer to their woeful question. There's probably several million of them by now.
@Larnu Yeah, I sometimes comment on unjustified upvotes, but of course we maintain that people can downvote for pretty much any reason they like, so it's hard to codify why a new user should not want to use their upvote for "encouraging new users".
 
11:27 AM
Power users should have "low-quality" votes which would count the same as 5 downvotes
 
@Dharman The only trouble is that there are several high-rep users who are just rubbish generators. There's one who is now asking off-topic questions at a high-rate merely in order to insist their question-style is on-topic, and I think they have been through two or three short term suspensions. I would not want to give users like that any more power, as they could misuse it substantially.
 
That is always the problem. If you give people more power they will only abuse it more.
 
I was about to say "I won't", but unfortunately everyone tends to say that!
@tripleee Ooh, interesting - does SD need any more CVs?
 
11:55 AM
@halfer I don't think we are running out of volunteers any time soon, we got quite a number of people who signed up back when this was announced meta.stackexchange.com/questions/291301/…
 
Ah, great
 
12:17 PM
That's Spam Smokey :)
 
@Larnu uh, that's why it's flagging it
 
I know
 
if you want to provide feedback, that would be useful actually, but the format is to reply to the message with a k (or a number of other short keywords; if you want to do this I'll give you the full spiel)
 
Better yet, there's a userscript that sends feedback directly to metasmoke and casts the actual flag at the same time
 
12:40 PM
 
@Larnu If you account for the fact that people in a bad mood may be more prone to downvoting, the downvotes does not necessarily mean that the Questions are worse this year. It could be some external factor that just makes people anxious, nervous, angry or whatever..
 
@Scratte For me this factor is the quality of questions on Stack Overflow
 
How do you account for people being in a bad mood, @Scratte ? Capturing people's personal feelings isn't something SO does (or should do). The reason I have actually been looking at the quality is to see if volumes have changed, due to the majority of people in the world being in "lockdown". As a result, some that would normally be in a class/work environment and not asking may well be now.
Now just because we have different users asking (I'm not saying there are more questions, there is actually a lower volume in the last couple week, as there normally is around now), that doesn't mean that they aren't asking good questions. So far, however, it seems that there has been a significant drop in quality in the last couple weeks.
Where as, there was very little change in quality prior to that apart from a very constant, but slight drop of about 0.1% a week. Certainly not a plummet of 3% in positive score questions in a couple weeks.
I'm actually looking forward (from an interest point of view) to the SEDE update on Sunday, to see if the trend continues.
 
I have certainly changed my behavior in response to Monicagate, though I don't think my downvoting is any grumpier than it used to be (if that was even possible)
I imagine that's what Scratte was alluding to as well ...?
 
12:57 PM
Monica-gate could well have made people "grumpier", but I would have hoped that those feelings would have passed by now for those. They may still feel aggrieved by it, but I would hope that haven't been in a constant bad mood while on SO for months. 🤣
 
What I mean is that if you solely base the quality factor on votes, it may be misleading. People in bad moods may not ask more questions, but search more.. and when they find what they thought would help them, be more upset than normal. They may also see a Question they think will give them time away from real life only to find it's not really what they wanted to answer, but because of external issues, they downvote instead of moving on..
 
Where is the user's mood coming into this though, @Scratte ? How do you know (current?) the mood of the entire user base on SO?
 
I don't :) But I'm assuming you don't either. I just noticed you seem to base quality on votes.
 
@Larnu You are not accounting for to-be-roomba'd questions. A lot of recent questions will be gone in few weeks or years.
The trend is always like this. The recent questions have much lower cumulative score than the past questions.
 
@Dharman I used the PostsWithDeleted table, so I do account for them. And deleted questions don't contribute in the analysis in the same way the the score does.
 
1:02 PM
@tripleee Yes. Users changed behaviour in voting due to all kinds of factors. The events of the fall. The current lock down situation. People are not handling all these thing equality well.
 
The ones which survive roomba, do occasionally get upvotes. The more time they are displayed the more votes they get. The ones, which roomba collected can't be ever upvoted.
 
"I just noticed you seem to base quality on votes." That is how SO judges quality though.
 
@Dharman up or down votes? :)
 
@Scratte both
passer-by usually upvote old questions
 
but nor can than collect downvotes.
it works both ways
 
1:04 PM
the new questions usually get the attention of curators and their downvotes
 
@Larnu Yes :) But no one can convince me that a good post doesn't get down votes :)
 
Yes, but it'll have a positive score if it is good
 
a question with 2 upvotes and 1 downvote is a "positively" received question, as it has a score of 1.
 
@Larnu I had one Question. It had a nice score of 4. Then I started getting active on meta. It was going to go down.. It wasn't a bad post.
 
1:06 PM
you should factor in the number of visits, too; if very few people ever saw the question, the votes are essentially random noise
 
Granted that it's just one post, and doesn't in any way give insights into the larger picture. But emotions are just soo.. volatile :)
 
It shows a good trend, but it does not show how many downvotes I cast on old questions. SEDE does can't tell you the votes over time.
 
Happy April 2 everyone
dark mode is still here :-D
 
I briefly thought you said "dark mods"
 
1:10 PM
They're next April
 
Even ultra dark. I with they had just kept the flashlight to look like light mode instead of colourless mode. And that they just never removed it.. ever :) It's awesome!
 
As for your point about posting on meta, and then a question/answer getting votes, that's actually quite common. When you post on meta and reference a question/answer it gets more views. The users that read the questions on meta are normally more active users, and so do use their votes. As a result reference a question/answer can earn it both more up and down votes. Sometimes it can earn more ups, sometimes the opposite. Depends on the question (both the meta and SO).
 
the flashlight is symbol for us looking for good questions questions we can close.
 
I do close good questions too, but that is only because they are bad questions.
 
1:18 PM
They're all good questions, it's just most of them need to be closed
 
@Larnu I never referenced my post anywhere. There may not be any correlation to the events, but my instincts are kicking in.
 
@AmitJoshi We usually don't delete questions just because they are highly upvoted. Is there a good reason why this question must disappear?
Why is it off-topic?
 
I agree, it's off-topic now (it was closed some 3/4 years ago) as it's effectively asking for tool recommendation, but I don't think deleting is the right choice. it's been on the site for 9 years, and the rules were different back when it was made. It's clearly helped a lot of people, and just because the guidelines have changed since it was made, doesn't mean that history should be removed. The Close seems right, but not a delete
 
@Larnu I would not consider this as asking for tools. It is asking how to use a tool.
 
@Dharman I read it as they are asking for the equivalent tool in Firefox that they have in Chrome . Do you not?
 
1:28 PM
it's asking how to use the dev tools in firefox
 
@Larnu No. Asking how to do something in some tool is on-topic in my opinion. If they were looking for recommendations about other tools then yes it would be off-topic. They are not asking for recommendations, they are asking how to do a particular thing in a particular software.
 
@Dharman That question is off-topic and closed (four years back) as such. It has accumulated one (so far) reopen vote. That is why, I cast delete vote and post request here. If there was no reopen vote, I wouldn't have post here.
 
asking how to use programmers' tools is on-topic here!
 
Why not ask for reopening? I don't see how this deserved to be closed as off-topic. It definitely doesn't deserve deletion.
 
regarding reopening - meh, imo.
 
1:35 PM
@Dharman clearly I'm reading it differently to how you are. I don't really see it as asking how to use a tool. True, they are asking "how do i do this in firefox", and Firefox is a tool, but that could easily be read as (as i am) as a "recommend an extension so tbhat i can do XY in Firefox".
 
It is in Reopen Queue. Depending on how reviewers look at it, it may get reopened. I voted Leave Closed, because I do not see it related to programming. None of the answers include any coding related solution. It is just a setting in browser. Well, this is just my view though. I hope it adheres to current standards.
 
I'd be happy for that upvoted question to be protected and kept, tbh
 
@Larnu you can read any question "how to x" as "gimme a library to x". That doesn't make the entire SO off-topic.
 
I've given it a reopen vote though, as I agree that is has clearly been helpful in the past to a lot of people.
 
It clearly looks I am doing some mistake here. Can someone guide me deciding which questions should be considered for here?
 
1:38 PM
@TylerH @AmitJoshi The request is currently invalid as the question is open, so I've binned it.
 
@JohnDvorak it's down to phrasing. Such an open ended question can be open to interpretation; but that's why discussion is good.
 
@AmitJoshi I tend to do del-pls where something is really terrible, it won't Roomba, and it isn't especially useful
 
It's not even phrased as "gimme a tool to X" - and even if it was, you could edit it to make it on-topic
 
@AmitJoshi Harmful stuff. Stuff that actively harms programming community, stuff that is just noise, stuff that is of such low-quality no one could ever edit it into shape, unneeded duplicates(both questions and answers) and stuff that should never have been answered in the first place.
 
I think the question at hand was pretty low effort, but was highly upvoted, so I am willing to give it a pass.
 
1:40 PM
@AmitJoshi Typically on Stack Overflow (and thus here), we delete questions that don't have value. This one is clearly valuable, at a very high score with nearly 200k views. Whether or not the question is on-topic, I don't think it should be deleted.
 
I don't think it's useful anymore, actually. Firebug hasn't been a thing for a while and the dev tools are very easy to find this functionality in.
 
@JohnDvorak There's plenty of questions which are no longer valuable. Programming community changes too fast. Unfortunately Stack Overflow doesn't have measures to deal with obsolete information.
 
@JohnDvorak The question is not about Firebug, that's just one of the answers. And that answer also gives non-Firebug methods.
 
How should I define "value"? The question was off-topic and was closed long back. Question is not related to programming/coding. In my understanding, it might be very good and on-topic on some other network site but not SO.
Now, the "value" in this question is number of upvotes (both on question and answer) and number of views.

I also agree that, this question does not harm if not deleted and even reopened. Its just not on-topic.
So if question is **old**, highly upvoted and highly viewed, should I say that the question have "value"?
 
Yes, but the dev tools are quite easy to navigate these days, so I don't expect people to care about the question anymore. Only one question vote after 2014 - and none after 2016
 
1:57 PM
@AmitJoshi value is typically defined in this case as a significant number of views and votes on the question and the number and score of answers. What constitutes "significant" is a sliding scale of course, but in pretty much any case, numbers over 100k for views or over 100 for post scores count as "significant"
@JohnDvorak sure, it may be trivial. But something being simple or easy is not a reason to close vote. It's a reason to downvote.
Stack Overflow isn't only for very tricky/very difficult programming questions or problems, after all :-)
 
I didn't say should be closed, just not worth the votes to reopen
 
I don't think it would be closed or deleted today. The question is about programming tools, which is on-topic on SO.
 
@JohnDvorak Ah, gotcha
 
The question was valuable, because a lot of people viewed and upvoted it. If it really was off-topic now, it should get a historic lock
 
It's not off-topic, just no longer useful
 
2:00 PM
@JohnDvorak That is the reason why we have our precious downvotes. If the question is not useful we can exercise our right to downvote it
 
The last upvote it got was in 2016. The second last was 2014.
@Dharman sure, but what does that achieve on that question?
 
Not much to be honest, but that is all we can do.
 
@Dharman Mods tend to prefer to save historical locks for when questions have a history of getting closed/reopened a lot. It's unusual for them to apply one to a question that's only been closed and reopened once (just stating that tidbit for the record)
 
2:39 PM
@Machavity This takes the "multiple questions in a single post" to a whole new level.
 
IKR. When your questions have questions, you need to break it up
 
3:12 PM
 
Would this Q be better on Security or Server Fault? stackoverflow.com/questions/60716020/…
 
3:31 PM
@halfer I don't see anything about programming
 
@Vega Indeed, I was wondering what site it would be better on
(And hello also, I haven't seen you here for a while \o )
 
o/
I peek sometimes
 
I've been ranting today :-)
 
@halfer Hard days :(
 
@Vega Hard time pass soon, stay positive and be safe .
 
3:42 PM
@Vega Yeah, true, though my frustration isn't with the lockdown and the pandemic. More SO focussed really - I'm in two minds about SO the company, and then a member of staff was rude to me on Meta, and it brought into focus whether the volunteer work I do here is a waste of time.
I tidy one post, and a hundred woeful ones spring up in their place...
 
SO is just trying to keep you busy while at home...
 
@TylerH out of the kindness of their (grumpy) hearts ;-)
 
3:56 PM
 
@Shree Thank you :)
@halfer Oh, that looks frustrating, but I insure you, you do a great job here :)
 
Thanks :-)
I think the close-voting makes an incremental difference, but not sure about the editing. I'm a bit OCD about presentation and waffle, and to some degree I make work for myself - "just one ... more ... edit!" [repeat ad infinitum]
 
@halfer I meant here, on SO, not only on SOCVR. And I have seen your edits, they are great!
 
4:11 PM
@Vega Thank you :-)
 
4:28 PM
Seen in a question just now - a UI needs to be "easily readabe"
 
5:39 PM
 
M--
@TylerH would you bin this? chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/41570?m=49002613 second thoughts... Thank you
 
@TylerH @M-- binned per your request
 
@ChrisP Hi Chris. This channel is for discussing whether questions are on-topic. Are you wanting us to consider whether your question should be closed? :-)
 
@halfer let's check the available rooms.
 
The main purpose of SO CVR is to coordinate the closure and deletion of material on Stack Overflow so that it remains a high-quality resource.
 
5:45 PM
 
M--
@halfer I just realized it's @ChrisP question. I was about to call that Too Broad
 
@M-- I was considering "Not about programming" but I wasn't sure
 
@ChrisP We do not allow advertisement of or action requests on posts where you are considered 'involved'. Check out the SOCVR FAQ at socvr.org for more information about this room.
 
OP is trying to get ban'd or something.
 
@E_net4theferrisball Do you have a different name every day?
 
5:49 PM
@Dharman No?
 
I guess I must be thinking of someone else then.
 
@ChrisP also, /dev/null is a read-only chatroom. There's no need to try and request access.
 
@Dharman It's not possible to have a different username every day. I believe changes in username are only permitted every 30 days or so :)
 
@E_net4theferrisball In general, do you flag this sort of thing to a mod, for account deletion, or is a rude/abusive flag sufficient?
 
@halfer Good question. I stood by R/A here. I hope it doesn't need to be brought up higher now.
 
5:54 PM
@halfer R/A is sufficient typically if it's an isolated event. If you notice a pattern, may want to put the mods onto it.
 
M--
@Dharman The "Unsafe downvoter" and "Removes meta commentary"? Was it @EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica who had those in their name?
 
It was always the ferris wheel
 
Righto, thanks E_net4 and Tyler {thumbs up}
 
M--
@E_net4theferrisball Nope? I am not saying it was you. Wondering if it was EJoshuaS... you're saying it ain't them either
 
5:58 PM
@M-- That was me. I don't think EJoshuaS is imitating the pattern.
 
I should rename myself to "halfer removes your begging and pleading", but it's a bit unwieldy.
 
@halfer "halfer cleans your trash"
 
@E_net4theferrisball "halfer wants to delete your account" sometimes ;-)
 
@halfer "halfer the revenge vote victim"
 
M--
OK, I am confused a bit, but not planning to keep asking question about your username :D
 
6:00 PM
@E_net4theferrisball May I ask if you did change both your username and your avatar?
 
@Scratte Yes.
 
@E_net4theferrisball Does the system let you change your username more often than once every 30 days?
 
@Scratte There's a workaround. Should be fine as long as I don't abuse it.
 
@E_net4theferrisball Ok. But mortals that know no better will have this limit then, I suppose :)
 
@Scratte It's no secret. I totally recommend reading the answer within.
 
6:03 PM
@E_net4theferrisball I think it's quite cool you change everything. Keep people on their toes :) Except you keep the E_net4, so I kind of think it's still you :)
 
@E_net4theferrisball There is a rock'n'roll aphorism, I think attributed to Led Zepplin, which is "you ain't nothing til yer've been bootlegged". Revenge downvotes on SO curators puts them into the Hall of Fame.
 
@Scratte A complete change would reach the borderline to me. The intent is never to impersonate or make some other kind of identity shift.
@halfer \o/
 
It's interesting how suspended users can change their display name too.
 
M--
@E_net4theferrisball You're still "E_net4 the downvoter" on SO. i.stack.imgur.com/biqiN.png I cannot keep up with you anymore
!!/blame
 
6:09 PM
@M-- It's Robby Cornelissen's fault.
 
@M-- You mean I'm still "E_net4 the ferris ball" here.
!!/blame caching
 
M--
Don't mess with me :D
 
@E_net4theferrisball It's David Buck's fault.
 
@E_net4theferrisball I had contemplated changing both my username and my avatar. But I figure that if I do it, I should probably not do both on the same day :)
You made a list of usernames in the beginning of the year and now you're slowly working through it?
 
@Scratte I devise the name as I feel fit for that time, so no.
 
6:56 PM
If you've been wonder where Kyll was, apparently he's been doing scientific work
 
Is there any chance that this SQL pl/sql is not NAA?
..never mind. Is there any chance that someone is following me? :)
 
M--
@Scratte Yes Natty
 
@M-- Natty didn't leave a message. I thought Natty always left a message when flagging.
Nice answer on that post btw :) Maybe Natty can pick it up :D
 
@Scratte Natty only flags and leaves the message when it is 100% sure it is NAA, otherwise it leaves a report for humans to check. sentinel.erwaysoftware.com/posts/aid/60998644
 
@M-- Ironically there is a flagworthy answer on that link
 
7:20 PM
@halfer I like to think my close vote reviewing does...but then several dozen new unanswerable questions pop up in the [android] tag the next day because SO doesn't provide advice at the ask stage that would fix 90% of the bad questions...and then again the following day...it's a bit frustrating
also the close vote review queue is pretty low-traffic as a whole, ~500 reviews/day, enough to close ~133 questions if they're all bad, when the queue gets seemingly 1-2k per day at a guess.
 
@Dharman So.. it isn't Natty that's following me! :)
 
M--
7:41 PM
@Scratte that one's for SD to pick up which it did (in Charcoal HQ) p.s. I'm on my phone, would've shared a link to the report otherwise
@Scratte well, it is. It left a report and a mod acted on that report
 
@RyanM Yeah, I hear you. I have wondered whether to invest the time and energy into writing an illustrated proposal amendment to the question wizard, to catch some of the obvious issues that would cut down on editing massively.
You have my sympathy though - the Android tag is particularly woeful. Very popular with the "woe is me, I beg you master, I am helpless, write my feature for me, I have been stuck here for five thousand days, I am new to programming, it'll be easy for you" crowd.
 
@M-- Ok. It just seems so spooky when answers are removed 2 seconds after I comment on them, just before I flag.. :)
 
@Scratte Machine learning is pretty powerful these days ;-)
 
@Scratte It's even spookier when the answer is deleted before the page opens for you.
 
@Dharman I've not yet tried that :)
 
7:51 PM
@halfer Yeah, I thought about writing up a meta post one of these days but really it's not going to get better unless SO itself does something about it. I can easily burn all 50 close votes on Android questions alone
Currently out and staring at a "kindly give source code please"
Also fairly certain I could write a script that identifies bad posts on that tag with at least 95% true-positive rate. Most of the problems are a pretty small set of problems.
"Crash" but no stack trace, no code whatsoever, some variation on (do you know|recommend( me)?)( any)? (librar(y|ies)|tutorials?)...
 
@RyanM I'd prefer "Can you upload the information directly into my brain?"
 
I'd prefer that too
 
8:06 PM
@Scratte That relates to an interested philosophical question I have sometimes asked myself. If a seasoned and capable engineer had the power to upload their valuable skills into a complete beginner, in a five minute process, should they do it? It would accord with the volunteer and open-source mentality in our industry. But could it devalue our skills? If every engineer were to replicate their skills in at least one new engineer, would salaries go down?
Moreover, is it fair on engineers who've spent twenty years honing their craft, for someone to turn up and get all that learning without any effort? Should we want beginners to make that effort, like a rite of passage?
 
@halfer They would go down but probably not a ton because your value is not just in your knowledge but also in how well you can apply it
One can know a lot and still be slow as molasses at solving problems/engineering solutions
 
And yet, if the upload were to take us five minutes, would it be selfish to withhold it?
@TylerH True, but we could say that the upload process has copied that ability too.
 
Then you're not copying skills you're copying an entire brain
 
@halfer We want that yes. We do it already, just differently. We read and learn from other people's mistakes. Unless you grew up in the woods and built all your own tools, then this happened :)
 
at which point you would be able to copy the rest of the body, too, and viola we have created teleportation
or EVE Online-esque cloning
 
8:08 PM
@TylerH Not necessarily - the copy target still has their own personality.
@Scratte Not at that speed. Twenty-year career experience still can't be replicated in five minutes with no effort - it still takes twenty years.
 
No, if you're uploading not just the trillions of synapses and neurons that contain the 'memory' but also the grey matter and plasticity and other stuff we don't know about yet that covers how someone thinks and solves problems, then you're covering pretty much the entire brain.
It would be a brain overwrite
Even if you could just do that, we would probably just grow babies in vats and inject all that knowledge into them during fetal development so babies are born with the sum knowledge of all humans
 
@TylerH Well, okay, but that misses the point of the dilemma in moral philosophy. The point of the challenge is to balance out the "common good" of sharing knowledge effortlessly with the unfairness of one person going through a long learning process, and another (possibly lazy) person benefiting from that without any personal effort.
 
@halfer there's a fallacy in your assumption that it's better not to share, because that would devalue what one's worked for. It doesn't de-valuate. It's the history of our society. None of us worked for the things we have. Most of us would have died at 30 if we didn't share our lives work with others.
 
@TylerH Ha!
@Scratte Good response. I don't necessarily take the view that I would not share, but people would certainly think that way
@TylerH "Where do babies come from, mummy?" "From vats in a lab, dear"
 
@halfer Yes. I see it all the time. When I start a new job, there's always some grumpy idi.. that doesn't want to share anything with me. It doesn't help them though. I always find out, and when I do, I share with it everyone :D
 
8:14 PM
@Scratte Oh yes, I have met a few of those. The paradox is that in terms of mentoring and helping, I do a lot of that in the professional environment, because I think the value of helping is far greater than the value I "lose" by not being the single point of contact for that skill.
However - and it is a "big but" - the downloading of one's whole engineering know-how and experience is much greater than merely mentoring someone at work.
Some people would genuinely worry that their unique selling point - their ability they have worked their whole life to perfect - would be diluted.
 
@halfer Not being the single point of contact is good though. It means you can have a holiday :) Some companies think that you're expendable when other (cheaper) people can do your work. That's just their loss. I can't build my values around that. I have to be kind and teach others what I can see they need to know.
 
@Scratte Totally agree
The dilemma I pose is interesting if you consider some of the woeful, arrogant, impatient, and lazy contributions to the (for example) Android tag. Now imagine that all the knowledge and ability you have worked for is being given, gratis, to someone who won't make an effort on a single question. They may even be a rage-quitter. Is the theoretical kindness of sharing still valid when we bump into the reality of who will benefit from it?
 
@halfer Just don't be influenced by them. 1. They cannot take their knowledge with them when they die (presumably), so it will be lost. 2. Diluted.. perhaps. But they could just use the same technique and learn a new skill. Half-full versus Totally-full :)
 
@Scratte Yes, you have mentioned one of the solutions I have considered for this conundrum, which is that it does not matter if you download your knowledge and ability to a lazy person, since as soon as you learn a new thing, their "copy of you" is out of date.
 
@halfer There would be no need for SO if we could upload information into our brains. Then we'd need creative skills and people willing to learn so others can "upload them" :)
 
8:20 PM
And, of course, the copy process does not remove any information from the copy source.
 
@Makyen Did you update something or is Github broken?
 
@Dharman I'm not sure what you're asking about. I haven't updated anything today.
What appears to be the problem?
 
CVRG alpha is telling me it has an update, but then I go to the link and it doesnt open
 
@Scratte Another point that that brings up is that sharing information is itself a skill :-)
 
..I suggest the Ministry for the remainder of this "experiment" :)
 
8:24 PM
@Scratte Of Silly Walks?
 
@halfer Hats :)
 
@Dharman It looks like a general GitHub issue, but it shows that there's another type of GitHub issue for which the script should filter.
 
8:53 PM
How should a copycat post like this be flagged?
 
9:05 PM
@Scratte I don't think they have plagiarised anything. I would take no action.
 
@Dharman Thanks :)
 
9:44 PM
 
M--
@Dharman I do
 
@Scratte I was curious and dug around a bit and found this answer from a moderator: meta.stackexchange.com/a/93884/165261 which suggests maaaaybe it's flag-worthy since it was posted long after? Agree that it's far from clear-cut though.
 
@RyanM Thanks. I don't like it when answers are saying the exact same things as other answer(s). I always comment on them. But I feel that maybe they should just go.
 
 
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