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12:00 AM
 
@Dharman You may be right, but I just tried to look at the post here about red/black trees. There's awful lot just about the algorithm.
 
mas
12:26 AM
@Makyen Got it. Thank you!
 
 
2 hours later…
 
2 hours later…
4:39 AM
Morning!
 
4:57 AM
o/
 
 
3 hours later…
8:02 AM
Could somebody explain to me (non-English native) what the meaning of e.g. "Op seems entitled." is in the special context of this discussion. E.g. the use by halfer in the 9-starred post as listed on the right. I only guess from context that it is somethign to avoid.
Is it something like making requests and off-handedly assuming that other people have to do the work?
 
@Yunnosch "entitled" could be roughly translated as "I deserve this"
 
@tripleee Thanks. That is what I guess from the meaning of the word as I learned it. But it seems to me that there is some implied judgement. Is it that you should not give the impression of thinking so?
(Not complaining or blaming or anythign, I only want to undertand the word...)
 
It's not great giving out the impression you feel you are entitled to things you are not really entitled to. Hence the judgemental tone.
 
Thanks. So I was close enough.
 
in this context the problem is thinking you can expect respect and service when actually you have no foundation for that ... so yeah, pretty much what you guessed
 
 
Thanks, especially as my question needed some tolerance on your side for being accepted as on-topic here. ;-)
 
8:25 AM
Does any know if there's every been a suggestion for a scroll-bar on the featured starred messages in chat? I can only see a few of them.
 
@Scratte I think there's a Tampermonkey script for that
 
8:54 AM
Apowersoft is a serious spam source, often hard to tell without context but check it out in metasmoke metasmoke.erwaysoftware.com/…
 
@tripleee Thank you. I'll go on a search then :)
 
@tripleee 5 year history. Wow.
 
9:19 AM
@tripleee You were right. There is one such by Makyen :) But it doesn't seem to be on stackapps
 
 
1 hour later…
10:19 AM
@mkrieger1 sorry for the hammerfest (-:
(further apologies to my fans in Norway)
 
@tripleee I just thought the question which was specifically about the \U issue was more fitting, but nevermind.
 
@mkrieger1 well because I hammered that too; but I can certainly add it as a second dupe
third, even; but I removed the one which is now only a detour
 
yeah my original target was not so great
 
the Python tag has a good set of canonicals for many questions but the beginner questions are a complete morass, there are probably thousands of duplicates covering, I dunno, 50 common problems?
 
 
1 hour later…
@halfer purely about development tools but as such it seems not particularly clear
 
@Yunnosch In English we sometimes say "overly-entitled", although the "overly" is probably redundant. It means that, in the view of the observer, the original speaker has exhibited characteristics of impatience or they have been noticeably demanding. There is an implicit idea of exchange value: if you get something for free (volunteer labour) then setting rules (such as deadlines) might strike independent observers as a bit rude.
For more (often amusing and extreme) examples, try this: old.reddit.com/r/ChoosingBeggars (the title of the sub comes from the English aphorism "Beggars can't be choosers").
@tripleee thanks
 
That SD report is gibberish
 
@halfer Thanks. I tried to think of an expression which more clearly expresses the "not really" or "undeserved". My own first language is known to offer more flexible expressions for all kinds of weird things.... Or better a method for creating them.
 
1:02 PM
Morning
 
Morning
 
Mooing
 
Yeah. OT SU, or a custom, "We are not <company>'s help desk."
 
Ok.. I was thinking blatantly, but I'll go with Super User :) Thank you.
..someone is ahead of me :D It's already gone.
but it's answer is still in review. Just seems kind of silly to review that now.
 
 
1 hour later…
3:10 PM
 
4:48 PM
@Larnu Done
 
@Larnu you are involved, that is not allowed here.
 
apologies, @rene , didn't realise that.
 
@Larnu I have previously flagged for mod and asked for an undeletion in those cases
 
@Larnu yeah, it is our in famous rule 15: socvr.org/faq#GEfM-no-requests-youre-involved
 
I think ask+delete is a clear-cut case of abuse (but agree with Rene, my apologies to ROs)
 
4:51 PM
Ahh, I searched "undelete-pls" @rene where as it has "undel-pls", why I didn't find it
Thanks @halfer . yeah, I gave a flag, but actually despite the "abuse" the Op can do it, but it really isn't in the "spirit" of the site.
 
5:40 PM
@Larnu It's sad to see a high-repper doing it, bah
 
5:56 PM
Room owner (@Makyen) please remove cv-pls: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/48963654#48963654
Question improved
 
1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null, by request
 
M--
Anybody can tell me why table body is empty for the webpage in this question? stackoverflow.com/questions/60890639/… cc: @TylerH
I mean when I am looking at the page itself, data is in there, but the page source only has the table structure and nothing within <tbody> </tbody>
 
6:11 PM
@M-- what browser are you using where the page source shows nothing inside tbody?
 
M--
Chrome
 
do you also see nothing in the Dev Tools?
or is that what you mean by page source?
if you do mean Page Source (e.g. Ctrl+U I think), if that's blank, then it means the table data is loaded in via JS
 
@E_net4removesmeta-commentary: the question you edited here (from SD) was deleted by the author: stackoverflow.com/q/60889432 - as per earlier discussion in here, that's annoying as it has deleted an answer with it
 
on the markup inspector tab, you should be able to see the live data (this is Firefox): i.stack.imgur.com/46OZ4.jpg
Looking at the page briefly, it seems it's designed that way explicitly to prevent scraping. But you should still be able to load the page in a scraper that can run JS and then use QSA or something to find the data
 
@halfer I'm not sure I understood the problem. Can you link to that discussion?
 
6:22 PM
though I agree that the defacement should be undone, even if it is deleted.
 
I know which question we're speaking of. I'm just trying to understand the issue in reverting a defacement on a deleted Q.
 
It shouldn't be an issue. You can edit posts even after they're deleted. I see no harm in it, especially considering that the post was defaced. Just don't waste your time if the OP rolls back. It's likely that very few will see it anyway, considering it's "deleted".
 
@S.S.Anne Sure thing.
 
Considering the OP has 1 rep, I doubt they'll find it again. Not unless they spend some time getting 10K.
 
@E_net4removesmeta-commentary I mean that the question was deleted after the vandalism was rolled back, and although the OP is technically allowed to delete their question, it is unfair on the answerer, whose answer was also removed. No matter - I will flag it for a mod.
 
6:28 PM
@halfer Hmm yeah, I understand. By quoting me, I kinda felt you were disagreeing with the edit.
 
@E_net4removesmeta-commentary Not at all, just wondered if you wanted to flag, as it was "your question" :)
Just about to send a flag now
Done
Yeah, sorry, my earlier feedback wasn't very well put!
 
No problem. Let's see how that flag goes.
 
I've had them accepted/actioned before, but I won't chase it up if it's declined - worth a try
 
Oh, now we can follow Stack Overflow on Instagram... stackoverflow.blog/2020/03/27/stack-overflow-instagram-account
 
6:40 PM
Hopefully they fuzz out the personal details from the personnel firing notices
 
@TylerH I really don't understand what they're hoping to achieve there.
 
The picture on that latest blog post is funny. Pouring syntatic sugar into a cup of coffee, I would never come up with that.
 
I put JS let and const in my coffee. Definitely not just syntactic sugar.
 
@Machavity Please bin this request.
 
Do you (anyone) know if there are any rooms to get help in how to phrase a Question to get it on-topic?
 
6:49 PM
If it's a specific question then create a new room.
If it's related to SOCVR, then you can ask here.
 
@S.S.Anne If I create a new room, wouldn't I be sitting in it all by myself?
 
If not then you can probably still ask here unless it's in the way of on-topic discussion.
Depends on if you're talking with another user or if it's your question.
 
If I get the user into my room, we'd just be two people who don't know how to get the Question into shape.
 
Then ask here.
 
It was recently closed. Red Black Tree Height Proof. I'm trying to work out if it can be phrased "Why is the time-complexity for a depth-search at most 2 lg(n + 1)?" to make it good enough. Or if it's hopeless.
 
6:56 PM
@Scratte It's not about programming. It has to be about programming to be on-topic. That's more like mathematics or computer science.
 
@S.S.Anne So.. you're saying it's hopeless. I'm sort of struggling to see the difference between this and the other algorithm questions that's very similar to this one. Is that they should all really be closed?
 
Ask yourself: Are "the other algorithm questions"<sup>[citation needed]</sup> about algorithms traditionally used in programming? Is this algorithm traditionally used in programming? Additionally, are the rules about what's on-topic and off-topic more strict now then they were in the past?
 
@S.S.Anne Done
 
ty
 
7:03 PM
@E_net4removesmeta-commentary It's just another immensely popular social media platform from which they can advertise their site and create traffic
it certainly makes sense from a business perspective
 
I wasn't here in the past. So I don't know about the rules back then. But I see Questions from December 2019. Is that the past?
 
@Scratte typically 'the past' means many years ago. For example 2011 or 2014 or something
 
Depends. Give us an example.
 
if a question is from 4 months ago you should probably remember a big change like that if you are doing moderation activity now
regarding that specific example (Red Black Tree Height Proof), I tend to stay away from complexity questions
 
@TylerH I don't understand what you're saying there.
I'm thinking if I put a Question in here, it's be closed in 10 min :D
 
7:10 PM
@Scratte You're asking if you are expected to know about rule changes from the past, no? WRT S.S. Anne's message about what to ask yourself regarding whether to close questions
 
But here's 1, 2, 3
@TylerH Ok. But I'm attracted to complexity questions. So I'm interested in knowing what to do to make those questions valid here.
 
So your question is about finding questions that are already closed and trying to edit them to reopen them?
One thing to keep in mind is the fallacy that older questions not being closed is a reason to not close newer questions
It's much more likely that old questions on a topic aren't closed because enough critical eyes simply haven't seen that old content yet
it can take a long time to close/delete old stuff that should have been closed
and because there are no alerts on status changes for voters or interested parties, we don't know to go back and check if posts have been reopened or not after closure in such cases
 
@TylerH Well, none of those I listed were closed. But no, my question just goes for this one. But @S.S.Anne already explained that this one in particular cannot be edited into shape.
 
Typically, if something is just asking for a mathematical algorithm, there's a large camp that says those are not programming questions because they don't involve telling a computer to do something. Thus such questions belong on Math.SE or one of the similar sites
also I think there is an entire SE site that specializes in things like data/math algorithms
 
I'm guessing there's an opposite camp then :D
But OK. The other questions that I see are just really questions that should have been closed, but for some reason are haven't been. That makes sense. I'm just not sure the frequent user of the algorithm tag is aware of that
 
7:23 PM
@Scratte probably. I don't know how big each camp is or which one is currently in control of the Meta zeitgeist on the topic.
 
If you use the "find a stack exchange community" search bar and type "data" or "math" you find 10 different communities, @Scratte . Very likely one of those will be more ontopic for what you're after
it's just a case of finding the right one. it's always worth taking the time to take the community's "tour" ({site url}/tour) and visiting their help centre to see what's on topic.
 
@Larnu I can't migrate Questions. I'm not sure if suggesting another site on a comment would even be helpful, if it then turns out that the site i recommended doesn't like the Question.
 
Only moderators can migrate @Scratte . We (users with the vote to close privilege) can vote to migrate but only to 5 specific ones (superuser, dba, tex, meta and stats; or at least those are the options I get), but it requires all the voters to vote to migrate to that site. Even one user voting differently means it won't be migrated. If your question is closed as off-topic because it fits a different community, then you can repost it on the correct community; that isn't a problem
 
@Larnu It's not my Question :) I was just trying to get a Question into shape for this community.
 
M--
8:05 PM
@TylerH That's what I mean. If I inspect (Ctrl+Shift+I) though, I can see the content of the table. Is there a way to scrape the data loaded via JS?
Just saw the second part of your response. Thanks a lot ^__^
 
@M-- there is an answer on the question now in the same vein as my response as well
1
Q: Upcoming Feature: New Question Close Experience

Des👋🏼 Hey! I’m Des. I’ve been here at Stack for a little while now (4 years and some change) and just recently started working much more closely with the Public Q&A product team as Director of Product, Public Platform. Working within Teresa’s organization, I'm responsible for setting the overall s...

8
FYI ^
 
hidden?....<facepalm>
{ my close votes } - "Am I a joke to you?". :P
 
8:31 PM
@TylerH What exactly is the improvement there??
 
@Dharman I'm about to post a reply
I see one exists already but haven't clicked to load it
 
9:05 PM
 
Did I misunderstand something or will it be become impossible to see example of what not to do when creating Questions? ..being low-rep
 
@Scratte well, there will always be the wizard/guidance on the ask page, and the help center, and some posts on Meta
but it'll probably be harder to just trawl through the questions list and search for closed:yes to find examples of what not to do
though you can definitely do the opposite: search for high-scoring non-closed questions to see what to do
 
that search could have many false positives
 
true
but hopefully not too many, especially if you just look at the top top ones, and also include locked:no
 
@TylerH This is devastating to me. I learn from looking at closed posts. I sit here to look at what you're doing to learn just by looking at examples. It's giving me "experience"
 
9:24 PM
In the spirit of the new closure system, SOCVR will now be known as Crouching Flower, Hidden Room
7
 
lol!
I'm thinking about answering that post. But it seems the focus is not very much on inexperienced reviewers.
 
@Scratte Even by the new proposed system (which surely will change between now and full implementation), you'll still be able to view questions if you have the direct URL
you just won't be able to see them on question lists
so if we post cv-pls requests here you can click the links and view the questions still
 
@TylerH Lets hope that then :) I can't see the deleted ones even with a direct link
 
9:53 PM
@Scratte I want to read your answer, please post it. It will definitely be better than my rant.
 
@Dharman I abandoned it.. :( I'd have to write it then first. I don't even have any close votes, so my perspective is entirely different.
 
@Scratte Which is exactly why you should post an answer if you are thinking of writing one. We need different perspective
 
10:36 PM
Hi @Des, and welcome to SOCVR! You'll maybe get some interesting feedback here...
... for one, I would support the point @TylerH made in his reply - increase the close vote quota (at least, maybe for higher-rep users).
 
10:51 PM
@Scratte I strongly agree that your perspective is valuable on that question about changes to the close system. We definitely want to enable users who are interested, able, and willing to spend the time to learn. That is actually critically important. Such users tend to be the ones that develop into good, ongoing contributors to the site. We don't want to trash their learning experience.
I agree there's probably is a trade-off here (being more welcoming is also important), but the learning experience of strongly engaged users is absolutely something that should be known and considered. It shouldn't be something that is just not brought to the table.
 
Des
@AdrianMole hi! thanks :) that was really great detailed feedback (thanks @TylerH). I set up time with the product team next week to go through it all in detail. Appreciate the help!
3
 
11:14 PM
@Makyen The thing is that I really don't like this change. I had hoped for a completely different kind of change.
 
@Scratte Then please post an answer on that question describing what you don't like and why, along with what you would like to see and why. I know it's work to do that, but SE actually appears to be listening. Not providing that feedback/input really means that you're just giving up on trying to get what you want. It also means that the site will be worse-off for people in a similar situation.
I could understand being frustrated if you feel that what you write wouldn't be listened to/considered, but it's really looking like SE has changed and is actually seeking input.
 
11:31 PM
@Makyen Maybe they will read it. Maybe everyone else will hate it :D
 
@Scratte It's unlikely to be heavily downvoted if you explain your perspective and give reasons for the issues you have. While there might be some disagreement, if you give rational arguments, then people are usually receptive, even if what needs to happen is that a compromise is reached.
 
I'm trying to search for Questions, but it doesn't seem to be working: stackoverflow.com/search?q=hasaccepted%3A+no
This is supposed to give me Questions without accepted answers, but they're not showing.
 
@Scratte You have a space between the : and the no.
 
11:48 PM
@Makyen Ahh.. thanks :) I put it there on purpose even :)
 
11:59 PM
@Scratte np. It's easy to do something like that. :)
 

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