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12:06 AM
I find this request rather questionable from an ethical (possibly even legal?) point of view .... what's the policy around this kind of nagging burn?
 
@mickmackusa I didn't edit it because it's not possible for me to do so. Only elected moderators can edit messages written by others, or that are older than two minutes. The author of a message can edit or delete it for two minutes after posting it. The only thing which room owners can do is move the chat message out of the room.
@mickmackusa This message was pinned in the room for 14 days. There have also been a variety of discussions between ROs and other people. There's some more explanation here.
@tink While that question is phrased more like the OP is wanting to do something nefarious, there are legitimate business reasons why a company might want a browser extension installed and be non-removable on the machines they control.
@eyllanesc We don't permit re-requesting for a question which has already been closed via a prior request (or several other possible conditions indicating conflict between users). The reason is that the situation is a difference of opinion between users. Once it escalates to that point, it's something which needs to be taken to Meta, not just be handled isolated here in SOCVR.
 
@Makyen Okay, thanks, I didn't know that rule.
 
12:27 AM
@eyllanesc np. It mostly stems from this room not being an arbiter of disputes between users, or groups of users. Once it gets to the point where it looks like that's the case, it's really something that should be handled by Meta (or a moderator, depending on the circumstances).
 
12:43 AM
@Makyen - fair enough; maybe I'm too paranoid for my own good =}
@Makyen - and I didn't know that, either. Thanks.
 
 
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9:52 AM
0
Q: We shouldn't [microfocus] our tags so much

AdelinThere's a company, MicroFocus, that has it's own tag on StackOverflow: microfocus, with 93 questions at this point. The tag doesn't add anything useful to the question; Questions related to MicroFocus are off topic; Usually the questions tagged with this company name are also tagged with the ac...

 
 
3 hours later…
1:07 PM
Morning
 
@Nathan - Afternoon! Now you're bringing your own mega-spam?
 
I'm irrationally complex, so you never know what's going to happen next ;)
 
Is it clear yet when the network-wide strike will be?
 
I heard the 24th, but I need to confirm
 
@NathanOliver a day, or the full week?
 
1:14 PM
not sure but a week was the target
 
Monday to Monday, starting (UTC midnight) the 24th
Also, clarification: For now , it's just SO, not the network, because that's where most of corp's attention is. If we end up needing to strike again, then it might very well be network-wide
 
@Mithical Thanks for the conformation.
 
np
 
@Mithical also smaller sites would be hit disproportionately by the protest
on SO it's just a matter of a few more spoonfuls of poop in a giant cistern
 
1:30 PM
@Mithical Is there a convenient link you can offer, where I can get a summary of what/why/how/when, etc. (I'm particularly interested/concerned about what the consensus opinion is from our moderators.)
... after all, our 'battle' is not with them!
 
my personal coordination thing is at gist.github.com/superplane39/8139b4f60d946c7511c3f6f31ecd51a0, all the info and links are there - although rather disorganized
Haven't talked to to most of the mods yet; that's on my schedule for tonight
 
Thanks - I'll take a look! (I can handle 'disorganized' - it's in my genes.)
@Mithical - Nothing on the list that I can see about not doing any reviews, or not flagging anything. But I would presume that would also be part of any action.
 
Yeah - I was more focused on the mods and various coordination groups than individuals, but yes, those were also part of my thought process
 
2:10 PM
Does this Q look unfocused?
 
It looks a bit "GMTC" (can't say that in full on SOCVR, apparently) to me.
 
@Machavity mhm, at this moment, no, as the answer is simply "yes". If changed to "How to (..)" it would be focused I guess, especially given the answer there: "Yes we can, if you pay"
 
@Adriaan Thanks
 
2:16 PM
o}
 
@TylerH feeling bovine today?
 
@NathanOliver I don't think the folks of Northwest Germany would appreciate being likened to cows X-D
 
@NathanOliver I think he was feeling peckish
 
I was unable to find the original source for the image in these posts, but they contain, no doubt, the same image: stackoverflow.com/a/57249968/5468463 and stackoverflow.com/a/58386009/5468463. Which action should be taken (if any)?
 
2:32 PM
@Vega Well the copy attributes it to google images, and that was probably from SO but we'll never know. I'm inclined to leave it as is.
 
Additionally, one has additional text in the image itself and has more JPEG-ification, so it's doubtful they're from the same source. The later one probably came after a few rounds of sharing
 
@NathanOliver Thank you. How about the second post? Should I ask to do the same (put the attribution or source)? It was posted a couple of month later
@TylerH Yes, I have seen that and still wasn't sure it was the original. Thank you
 
The concept is older though reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/6f68rv/… (Jun 4 2017)
 
@Vega I was talking about the second post. I didn't realize the first one wasn't the source as well. The first answer should have some form of attribution in it. I'd ping the user and ask if they could provide it.
 
2:35 PM
@TylerH One of the posts contains that image, too
@NathanOliver Great, I will do
 
@NathanOliver which is rather rubbish as far as attribution goes. Even Google itself no longer allows you to copy images directly through its search engine, but rather takes you to the source directly.
 
@TylerH What's this, an original idea on Reddit and not a repost? I don't believe it
 
Can we feed the image into google image search to find the earliest post?
 
Even on SO it is not original: stackoverflow.com/a/45794912/2756409
 
@NathanOliver I did and nothing conclusive came up
 
2:38 PM
OK
 
I always wondered what "recycled toilet paper" was. :)
 
Thank you all for your guidance :)
 
@AdrianMole tp recycled from other paper sources... luckily not tp that's already been used as tp!
 
3:08 PM
@TylerH That would be tpu :P
 
@Adriaan uggh, is a 'Where is the official doc" in Shog9's definitions and an answer that is rather unsatifactory but given it is the "confirmed" way I guess it is okay.
 
@rene May his soul rest in peace
 
His disenfranchised 'soul' can still be spotted, wandering around on Meta from time to time.
 
As long as one of the horcruxes remain, Shog will never truly die
 
That's a somewhat harsh and unwarranted comparison, IMHO.
... but there may be such 'horcruxes' left in AI/Bot code - who knows?
 
3:21 PM
@AdrianMole Fair enough; one certainly isn't evil.
 
@Das_Geek one mightn't have been, but the subsequent 8 ...
 
4:08 PM
@TylerH Not sure if the concept has copyrights. If I take similar pictures of my own toilet roll, potted plants or milk cartons, would I be in violation of any copyright?
 
4:29 PM
@Scratte No
first of all it's unclear if copyright was even asserted. Second, you would be covered in the US under fair use exceptions
which include even exact reproductions for the purposes of critique, satire, or education
however, if you try to pass off an image as your own, or even just fail to mention that it's not yours, it often runs afoul of the mods' enforcement of plagiarism
 
@TylerH That's good to know if I ever venture across the pond again :)
 
Mods for example deleted (unhelpfully, IMO) some of the top answers to the popular SQL question asking about various types of SQL Joins. One of the best ways to visually represent these is using Venn diagrams, but the answer(s) using the most comprehensive Venn diagram images are deleted because they lack source attribution I assume
@Scratte The UK probably has some different laws about copyright and fair use, but I don't know them.
 
@TylerH So it's not enough to make your own visuals and mentioning that the idea it not yours and you don't know the first origin?
 
@Scratte You'd have to ask the mod in question why he deleted it in this case
but typically if you do that, I'd consider it, at least, as clear an attribution as possible
 
@TylerH No need. I expect that I'd have to comply with local laws and US law here
 
4:35 PM
You don't have to comply with US law outside of the US, despite what the US would like you to believe
Of course, if you are using a website hosted on US soil, the website has to comply, and so mods will enforce US law on SO
 
@TylerH probably taken from Jeff Attwood's blog.codinghorror.com/a-visual-explanation-of-sql-joins
 
@Vickel no, the image is different from the ones he used
 
@TylerH. Oh. I thought I had to when the company I share information to is in the US. I even thought that if I started to seriously damage the company even from Europe, I could be shipped to the US..
 
and the concept is certainly older
I actually don't know a good reason why Martijn deleted that answer come to think of it. I've mod flagged it; we'll see if he/a mod gives some reason.
@Scratte Well, yes, if you do something that violates a lot of laws that your country considers sufficiently egregious, they could extradite you to the US for you to face charges there.
 
good, while I can't see the OP, I'm against deleting old upvoted stuff
 
4:39 PM
In practice though, a lot of countries don't extradite people to the US where they may face the death penalty if convicted
and many countries also don't have extradition treaties, or if they do will refuse to extradite citizen nationals to the US
E.g. China will not extradite a Chinese national to the US no matter the reason
Really the biggest recent threat to national sovereignty vs the US came when Australia basically bent over for the US in the Kim Dotcom/MegaUpload case.
 
@TylerH So either change hobby or move to China? :D
 
@Scratte Or maybe some place a bit nicer...
 
@TylerH I doubt someone would be charged with a capital offence for damaging a website. But I have been surprised before.
 
@Scratte If it's in the US and considered treason you could hace the death penalty.
 
@Scratte I wouldn't put it past the US; certainly not past the current administration, whose leader has basically called for jailing/murdering people who disagree with him
@Vickel here's a screenshot of the deleted answer I'm referring to i.stack.imgur.com/cf4rr.png
 
4:44 PM
@TylerH wow, deleted with 2569 upvotes ????
 
@TylerH, @NathanOliver I see your point. Just for clarity: It's hypothetical only :)
 
anyway jeff's post is from 2007
 
@Vickel well, it's not uncommon for very popular stuff to get deleted, but typically it's blatantly off-topic questions that get that treatment, not specific answers
 
@TylerH lets see what Martijn says, pls. let me now
 
@Machavity lol
 
4:48 PM
@TylerH Did you notice it has a copyright logo on it? Isn't that an indication not to use it?
 
@Vickel I will let you know what response I get, but fair warning it's just as likely to be the standard 'declined - moderator reviewed and found no evidence to support' reason as it is to be a reasoned position on deleting clearly valuable image-only answers
 
@TylerH most likely, thanks anyway, as @Scrattle points out copyright from 2008, copied from jeff's blog issued on 2007, probably that's the result of those 2 actions
 
@Scratte Depends on what rights the copyright holder reserves in the source publication, and I'm not sure the copyright would even hold in court if challenged, because it's almost surely a derivative work in its own right
@Vickel the images are not copied from Jeff's blogpost
 
@TylerH but the concept is the same, just the diagrams are a bit smaller and the color is different...
 
the concept of showing joins as venn diagrams is likewise not copyrighted by Jeff's blogpost either. It'd be like trying to patent rounded corners
 
4:52 PM
uff
 
It did make it to court
 
C.F Moffatt, btw, did express that there were no issues with using the image on Stack Overflow codeproject.com/Articles/33052/…
so I must believe that the mod deleted it due to being nothing more than an image
 
While the image was not copied from Jeff's post, it was copied from Moffatt and an answer containing only copied information, even if attributed should be removed from the site per: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/321299/…
 
I disagree with Boltclock's description that including a reference link is still intending to pass content off as one's own
Anyway, if the fact that it were just missing block quote wrapper, or maybe that + some other minor thing, the mod should have opted to edit it to comply rather than deleted it. A la optimizing for pearls.
 
True. If it can be fixed, it should be. In this case there was no fix but to insert content, and that is something the mod shouldn't do.
 
5:03 PM
questions about sql joins are asked daily, this answer should be fixed with content and reborn, it's valuable for a lot of beginners, imo
 
@NathanOliver Which is why I suggested in my flag that they convert it to CW instead and then anyone can transcribe the words on the image into text so that it's not image-only
 
You got an achievement: Operation Phoenix - post a self-answered question and get a canonical duplicate merged into it.
 
If I were ever elected as a mod, that's something I'd probably just do.
 
@Adriaan, There is an answer here ( sorry pinging you here as it was misspelled in the comment) stackoverflow.com/questions/4802015/…. It confirms a part of the chronology
 
That would work, but If I were the mod I would need to have the content ready, otherwise the answer should stay deleted. I could see making it a CW but leave it deleted until someone fixes it up.
 
 
1 hour later…
6:09 PM
+1
 
@Scratte Yes, creating your own original visuals and indicating where you got the idea is enough. It's not possible to copyright an idea, just the expression of that idea.
BTW: It's not necessary to assert copyright. The default is that any copyrightable work is, in fact, copyrighted. This is the case in most countries. It takes a specific act on the part of the copyright owner to release those rights (e.g. put it in the public domain). In some jurisdictions it's not possible to put something in the public domain.
 
@Makyen Thank you :) In the case of original work of users here, it's partially released with the commons creative license, if I understand that correctly. So it may be used, but not without a reference to the source?
 
Morning all /o
Is a question like "How does docker work" appropriate for SO? Seems to me like a "general compute" thing ...
 
6:25 PM
idk
 
@tink Questions about setting Docker up are on-topic, but that's too broad
 
Cheers @Machavity ... it got closed anyway (people thought it needed more focus).
 
@Scratte The author still owns the copyright, but has granted a license under any of CC BY-SA 2.5, 3.0, or 4.0 (depending on when it was posted on SE). That license grants specific rights to anyone that sees it. Those rights include permission to copy it, with the requirement that attribution is given. In my answer here I distill down what CC BY-SA 3.0 requires for attribution.
By posting on SE, the author also granted a separate license to Stack Overflow, which isn't CC BY-SA. The terms of that license are relatively broad, but the specifics depend on when the content was posted.
 
@LittleBowsette Please don't complain about users in here. Especially moderators and CMs
 
my suspension is false on meta SE and has no backing to it and the code is incomplete
 
6:36 PM
@Makyen Thank you. I'll keep that link close just in case. I read another post of yours about the change of license, so I figured you'd know the details.
 
@LittleBowsette We understand your frustration, but this is not the place to complain. There's nothing we can do about it. Your only real recourse is to use the "contact us" link at the bottom of any page on Stack Exchange and make your case to an SO employee that you should not be suspended. I'd recommend that you wait a bit (e.g. a day), so that what you send is not colored by your current feeling of frustration.
@Scratte np. Thanks. Yeah, I spent quite a bit of time reading the license, various versions of the TOS, etc., but I'm not a lawyer, so could be missing some things.
 
I have tried through the mod's message and they ignored it because, it apparently is possible to suspension circumvent with only one account
 
0
Q: Burninate office-store tag?

Pascal CuoqPrevious discussion In that discussion, commenters weren't sure whether Microsoft was actually inviting people to post explicitly off-topic question on this tag. Microsoft does invite people to ask off-topic questions on SO here: If you have general questions about policies, processes, or va...

 
@LittleBowsette Circumventing a suspension is grounds for an even longer suspension. If you want your suspension lifted, then you are best off not doing that.
 
I have one account this one
 
6:46 PM
@LittleBowsette if you have an issue with a suspension, you can use the 'contact us' link at the bottom of any Stack Exchange page -- that goes directly to the employees who can then anonymously review the circumstances of your suspension (mods won't find out unless explicitly included in the process by the employee). But there's nothing we can do about it here.
as Makyen has said
 
what am i supposed to do wait until my sister is unsuspended for asking about her own suspension that ended before she asked the question which would be 10 years of being not suspended for me to not be able to use SE
 
@LittleBowsette You can wait, or you can use the 'contact us' field like we've just mentioned. Either way, please refrain from further discussion about it here.
 
they have ignored it repetitively
 
7:02 PM
@LittleBowsette You are suspended on only one SE site, Meta Stack Exchange. Your best bet is to demonstrate good use/participation on other sites over a period of time, then ask for your suspension to be lifted. While it's rare, it is possible and does happen. In fact, there's a user that had a 20 year suspension lifted who was later elected as a moderator.
If you don't understand why you were suspended, then you can ask for clarification. If you do so with a tone that demonstrates you want to learn what went wrong, that can go a long way towards making people feel like you are going to change your behavior, which is one of the main points of placing someone on a suspension.
If you have used the "contact us", do not expect a quick reply. The people who handle such communication are dramatically overloaded at this point. It may take quite a while to get a response (days or even weeks; I don't know).
 
Who was that user?
 
I have waited more than a year since my last one to be dealt with (still hasnt)
Im also suspended on all SE chats for 413 days for no given reason
 
@S.S.Anne Yvette
 
@Dharman Let's avoid targeted comments about user behavior here, please. Even veiled ones.
 
8:05 PM
@Dharman Not sure that's the right close reason -- it's a developer asking "which market would i be excluding if I did not include armv7 in my build architectures". Maybe a tech support or off-site-resource, and definitely a moving target answer, but not General Computing.
 
Just to test the room boundaries, can I make veiled remarks about myself? :=/
 
@halfer Only if they're half-veiled
 
I mean, I'm sure halfer is a great editor, but he keeps editing my posts, and it's pretty annoying. I mean I want to thank my current readers, my future readers, my cat for keeping me company, my mother, my favourite teacher Miss Denny...
 
8:26 PM
@Das_Geek flags as obvious insult to double-beep ;)
 
Somehow I think a compromise between you two would please no one.
 
@Das_Geek What, between me and me? I don't think a compromise would be possible.
@double-beep :=)
 
If there is no difference to begin with, is the notion of compromise a tautology or a contraction?
 
In all seriousness we need more help with editing. I try to remove noise sometimes too, and I hope it helps.
 
Thanks in advanced for all your work in editing these posts
 
8:32 PM
@Das_Geek is the first search result NAA?
 
@double-beep Yes, I think so.
 
yah I broke it
.___.
 
@Dharman looks like the second one is NAA, too :)
 
8:43 PM
@halfer pls fix teh speling :)
 
Your thoughts on the self answer. Possible Spam? Exists only to promote a product or service, does not disclose the author's affiliation. stackoverflow.com/a/60269458/5233410
 
XD I can see it but it is deleted
 
@Nkosi They just self deleted
 
I can see it still
it looks like your right @Nkosi
 
8:49 PM
oh ok then. Carry on
 
@M-- Your edit on this post doesn't actually change its NAA status, and only makes it harder for flag reviewers to act. Please roll back the changes.
 
9:01 PM
@double-beep I need my magic marker so I can edit here. Maybe some Tipp-Ex on the screen? :-/
 
M--
9:14 PM
@Das_Geek I didn't claim it does. I flagged it as NAA.
I don't understand this part: "only makes it harder for flag reviewers to act"
I don't think presence of fluff should make it easier nor harder for us to act. If you think differently, please draw your reasoning.
 
what fluff I see no fluff
 
9:28 PM
@M-- Sure. One of the changes your edit made was removing the final couple sentences. Those sentences helped make it more obvious that it was NAA, especially the "thanks in advanced" at the end. You can view these changes as "reducing the NAA score", as if Natty or similar were analyzing the post.
Reducing this "fluff", as you call it, potentially makes it take longer for reviewers to act, thus increasing their workload for a post that has no hope of redemption anyway. One of the "measuring sticks" that should be used when considering an edit can be found in the editing wiki page: "try to make the post significantly better when you edit, correcting all problems that you observe" (emphasis added).
It is impossible to follow this guideline if you know that its a NAA, because fixing that problem would require changing the meaning of the post. So by polishing these turds, it's not only a useless action on your part, but also creates more work for others and goes against how edits are supposed to be used.
@Das_Geek I will add a "P.S." to this by saying that I am guilty of doing this, generally to correct formatting on NAAs in an effort to make it easier for the flag reviewers. While those may or may not have been effective, doing so also didn't follow editing guidelines and also made more work for the Suggested Edits queue.
I wouldn't go so far as to say such edits are universally "wrong", but they're certainly not prescribed and don't have that much value (with some having negative value).
 
9:44 PM
i didn't notice smoky in the corner of the chat
 
What's up with that post? Total mess, seems like trolling to me.
 
I think it is
 
M--
@Das_Geek You spent a lot of time forming this up. Sorry that I am answering not nearly as sophisticated. I am at work and need to get something out in an hour.
About Natty, that's not a new post so it either has been picked up by it or won't be anymore.
 
@M-- No worries; focus on work. If you want to discuss this in more detail or post a reply once you've had time to sit down, feel free to create a room for it or send me an invite to some other room. I'll be happy to read it
 
M--
I am not calling those fluff. Noise or fluff has been used repeatedly throughout my time on SO about unnecessary material.
 
9:49 PM
@EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica I flagged it as spam would you agree
 
Yeah, I went with R/A because it appears to be trolling.
 
M--
I agree that for NAA we cannot follow the guideline, but "observe" part is also important. I am accountable as I noticed that's NAA, but in general you cannot invalidate one's edit on NAA, only because they've edited NAA.
In general, I think your reasoning beats my response written in rush.
^__^
 
in my head I said hi rolling back but I know you're M--
 
@M-- That's a very good point, one I hadn't considered. I agree that such edits shouldn't be invalidated only on the grounds of the post being NAA. I shouldn't have asked you to roll back your edit; I was being overly pedantic
But I do appreciate (or rather, the flag-reviewers will appreciate) the rollback. Here's something to help with your deadline:
!!/coffee M--
 
@Das_Geek brews a cup of Latte for @M--
 
M--
10:06 PM
@Das_Geek Thank you. I need the coffee; more than I need it for this deadline, I need it to stay awake and finish "Last of Us" LOL
 
@M-- Nice! I tell myself I'll eventually get a PS4 to play all the good exclusives like TLOU, but that day never comes :P
 
Migrating links responsibly is such a pain. Turn off access to an old site, and all of a sudden get two dozen requests for access in a single day, despite having put a big glaring banner in red/bold text saying "this site has moved, please update your links" for 6 months -_-
I love some of the reasons, though. One person just put "Because"
 
@TylerH There is no such thing as "deprecated", just "working" and "oh jeepers it's BROKEN!!"
 
Like, I do get the frustration in some of the access requests, but there's only so much we can do from the POV of checking instances of old links
there's no way we can call every single employee and say "hey do you happen to have any bookmarks pointing to <old url>?" because lol, but also most folks won't even know
So we basically just have to announce it as loudly as we can, and then pick a cut-off date to turn it off and see who complains
I just didn't expect there to be an entire group of people using the old links for training who don't check the links until the day before training >_>
 
At least they checked the day before, and not 15 minutes before
 
10:13 PM
Fair enough. My company was reorganizing intranet links after a merger, and there were at-least-weekly emails reminding us about the change, when it would change, and what to do to prevent borked links. The next group meeting we had after the cutoff, people were asking questions about broken links :/
 
Were there any reply-to-all balls of "hey the links aren't working for me either"?
 
lol
 
Could be worse. I had a call yesterday that a report wasn't working. They were trying to run a shipments by item number and couldn't understand why when they put in the job number they didn't get any results.
 
When I was in college, I worked for a department and thus my email got included on the staff mailing groups. There was a campus-wide announcement about some apparently-contentious topic, and there were so many reply-alls Campus IT had to shut everything down because our poorly-allocated mail servers were filling up
 
@Das_Geek like the original story of the...thing at the...big company. The details are hazy.
Maybe microsoft?
 
10:17 PM
Yeah, MS reply all bomb
the entire comapny wound up emailing itself almost
 
The college was in the middle of litigation proceedings, too. So they couldn't safely delete anything in case someone FOIA-requested emails in that date range
 
@NathanOliver That :) Thanks
 
10:42 PM
 
M--
@LittleBowsette lol
 
 
1 hour later…
11:55 PM
Happy nearly tomorrow, folks.
 

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