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00:19
I was reading this meta.stackexchange.com/help/how-to-answer when I came across "Links to external resources are encouraged, but please add context around the link". How can one tell the difference between en encouraged link and a non-encouraged link?
01:25
@Scratte I don't understand what you are asking. That Help Center page (which is also available on Stack Overflow: stackoverflow.com/help/how-to-answer) is trying to explain that answers consisting merely of a link are not sufficient.
There is no such thing as an "encouraged" and "non-encouraged" link. I believe you are incorrectly parsing the sentence. Another way to read it is: "You are encouraged to add links to your answer, but please add context around the link."
Links should be supporting material only. If the link is removed, or were to go dead, then the answer should still be useful.
What that means is you need to either quote or summarize the information from the link in the body of the answer itself.
I use the following auto-comment to explain the deletion of answers that consist of little more than a link:
> A link to a solution is welcome, but your answer must be self-contained and useful even with the link: add context around the link so your fellow users will have some idea what it is and why it’s there, then quote or summarize the relevant information from the page you're linking to, in case that page becomes unavailable. Answers that are little more than a link are regularly deleted.
01:44
@CodyGray I get that. But I've seen answers being closed that had an explanation with the link. Maybe it's just when the link reference a tool or a vendor website.
@Scratte Answers cannot be closed. Only questions can be closed.
@CodyGray: Sorry, deleted.
An explanation like, "You can find the documentation here: <link>" doesn't count.
The answer needs to be able to stand on its own.
@CodyGray No, answers like. This plugin .. have this configuration .. makes the result.. find it here.
@CodyGray don't you mean "..and useful even without the link.."?
 
1 hour later…
02:55
@Scratte I do, yes.
I...need to fix that typo.
@CodyGray It's a flaw in my perfectionist personality. Changes are no one else noticed.
Being more of a perfectionist than I am is a true achievement.
And probably something you need to discuss with a mental health professional. :-)
Since I'm blocked from going to the stackoverflow.com/review I can't find a "Review guideline". Is there a direct link to that? meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/278461/… mentions a "Guidelines given on the review page" under the flowchart.
03:18
@Scratte As far as I know, there's no direct link. You're probably looking for the instructions for the Triage review queue which say:
Looks OK for questions that can be found, understood and answered as-is
Requires Editing for questions that you can make clear and answerable by editing
Unsalvageable for questions that cannot or should not be answered and must therefore be removed from the site
Skip if you are not sure and want to go to the next question
@Makyen Thank you. I assumed I might have missed a more detailed guide.
So if a question needs code or more information is has to go into the unsalvageable?
..or missing expected result?
03:34
Questions that are missing information are Unsalvageable (they need to be closed). Requires Editing is only for when you (or someone like you) could fix the problems with the question.
@Scratte There's often quite a bit of confusion about what questions require code (a MRE/MCVE). A MCVE is only required for debugging questions (although, homework questions must show an attempt). Debugging questions are "why isn't my code working the way I want?" or "fix my code for me". No other question types require code.
However, code usually greatly helps to narrow and clarify a question (i.e. without code, questions are often, but not always, "Needs details or clarity" or " Needs more focus").
@Makyen: What does MRE and MCVE stand for?
@Scratte Minimal, Reproducible Example and Minimal, Complete, and Verifiable Example. Basically, they are two names for the same thing.
And RepRex? Why, that’s Stack Overflow’s pet dinosaur!
@Makyen Thank you :)
03:53
@Makyen I just read one of your canned vandalism comments. Rather than waxing on about the presence/absence of the delete link, including its inexplicable absence on mobile, you might just change the comment to link to the page in the Help Center that talks about alternatives to self-deletion:
> please read "I've thought better of my question; can I delete it?" for possible alternatives
This is the link we include in the canned moderator message for vandalism.
I also think that wording about, "Per site policy, the non-vandalized version is hosted." is awkward and obvious, so I'd consider removing that in the interest of brevity.
04:17
@CodyGray Including the information about finding the delete button is because a reasonable number of people who vandalize do it because they didn't find the existing delete button. Sometimes that's because they just didn't look for it where it is. Other times, it's been because they were using the app. The information is there because I've had multiple people ping me saying they can't find the button, even when they should be permitted to delete.
I agree the comment could be shorter and just link to the various pages, but my experience is that a significant number of people don't click through to a link with more information. A number of those tend to leave comments with a ping asking to be spoon-fed information which they could have found in the link. The comment has grown as I've added the most commonly asked information to limit the times I get pinged.
I agree the wording going from the CC BY-SA license to reverting vandalism is clunky and could definitely use some work. Again, including the text mostly resulted from people arguing the link between their having given a license and SE choosing to distribute the non-vandalized version. I'll look at making it smoother.
I do like the link you use. I'll certainly look at using it. I'll also look at re-writing the whole thing to tighten it up.
04:29
Hmm, yeah, I should have expected its inclusion was a no knapsacks on the counter kind of a thing.
04:52
@Shree thanks for taking time to add "NATO"
:)
05:31
@tripleee you may interested :-)
05:43
@Shree thanks ... wow
@Shree I was very interested to read that as well. Thanks for sharing.
:)
06:09
"Top Trends in Asian Wedding Photography to Look for in 2020?". Thanks SmokeDetector, I didn't even know that was a thing.
06:25
@CodyGray "Top Trends in Asian Wedding Photography to Look for in 2020" sounds like something spit out from a Markov text generator or whatever :)
07:35
Oh dear. That tag is a veritable cornucopia of suck.
dbc
dbc
I know, right? But the room rules state that I have to stop posting cv-pls requests for posts over 1 month old, so there we are.
My personal rules say I can only stand going through and closing/deleting a single page of horribly off-topic questions at one time, so there we are.
Even the on-topic questions are bad...
I'm scared to look at , if that's even a thing.
dbc
dbc
It's a thing. The most recent two questions are also asking how to get access tokens. But the questions are from last year, > 1 month old.
Why do you even need APIs for these services?
I keep seeing questions like, how do I find the vehicle type? Uh, use the Uber app? Unless you're developing a replacement for the Uber app, you can't possibly need to know this information.
dbc
dbc
So you can embed ordering a ride into your own 3rd party app I reckon? E.g. your app could let your customer book a ride at the same time they book a theater ticket, then tell your customer what kind of car is coming, and when. But the ride-sharing company might not want anybody to be able to do that, so they want to vet you first, and then monitor to make sure your app doesn't abuse their terms of service.
07:51
I guess I can't imagine ever wanting an app to do that for me.
Or trusting some random app developer who can't even figure out how to contact customer support not to violate the terms of service and/or the security of my information.
dbc
dbc
The more you know, the less you trust. I had an older relative who put webcams inside his house for security. Said he felt more secure because he could check up on what was happening when he was away by streaming at the video to his phone.
That is, for whatever reason, a fairly common thing for people to want to do.
Seems to me like the world's most boring TV channel.
Either I'm in my house, so I know what's going on, or I'm not in my house, and there's almost nothing I can do about whatever is going on there in my absence.
@CodyGray It reminds me of this :)
dbc
dbc
Or I'm in my house and the webcam has a security bug so our private spaces aren't as private as we thought.
Why do I find it amusing that somebody bothered to upload a picture of "A fallen tree in a forest" to that Wikipedia page?
@dbc It does seem silly. Clearly an audio clip would be more appropriate!
08:20
is there a way to find out when serial downvoting has been reversed or which correction events are related to which downvotes? ref. meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/391406/…
@tripleee You should see a change in your reputation history if serial downvoting has been reversed. However, there is no correlation of that to specific downvoting events.
Moderators can see a bit more information. No serial downvotes have been reversed against the account in question. However, an investigation request was escalated to the CMs for that account, in response to a flag. Patience is required in those cases; the CM team is stretched pretty thin these days.
There is no set timeline for which one should expect the votes to be reversed. And there is no guarantee that the votes ever will be reversed, since investigation may reveal them to be legitimate.
I think Jean-Francois says it best in a comment on the linked Meta question:
CMs have a lot on their plate. It takes forever, we know... Be patient. After all it's just internet points. My strategy is: when I get downvoted, it gives me more energy to get a question and answer it, generally getting me some more rep. — Jean-François Fabre ♦ Nov 16 '19 at 23:30
@CodyGray thanks; my question at this point is really if there is anything I can do except click open every day's entry in my rep history to look for a correction event I might have missed
maybe SEDE ...?
I really don't know. I can't possibly imagine caring enough about votes or rep to ever go seek out answers to that question.
Surely there is something else more fun and/or educational that one could do, like watching paint dry.
08:42
@tripleee that is definitely not in SEDE
@CodyGray Says a person who has 200k+ rep. For us little ones every bit counts.
Nah. I didn't care about reputation when I had 200 points, either.
I need to provide at least one good answer/day so that I can stay net positive
You get that many downvotes?
No, but I down vote
08:45
Oh, right. I forget those cost you rep.
Because, as I may have mentioned, I don't care about rep.
One good answer per day is a reasonable goal, though, independent of reputation.
08:59
@CodyGray well, I have to post 100 answers to have one good answer. Let's redefine reasonable .. ;)
Maybe in the regex tag this will fly
 
2 hours later…
10:36
Never mind :)
11:29
I do wonder what muppet gave that spam an upvote...
11:47
lol. That's a real close reason.
They said please!
13:13
Morning
13:30
This question was closed (Opinion based) stackoverflow.com/questions/59985371/… If the question was phrased "What is the most efficeint way to pass a buffer and copy back to the same memory area" would that have made a difference?
@Scratte the question is pretty messy, it's doubtful whether that phrasing change alone would bring it up above the threshold for reopening
@tripleee I noticed it was messy :) I'm trying to learn the subtle variations.
@tripleee But it might have gone from Opinion based to something else?
yeah, I'm no C expert but it would also qualify for too broad and needs clarity or details
I'm no big fan of these new close reasons, I have sometimes followed up with additional advice in comments after a question was closed
@tripleee: Thank you. I'm finding it hard to find documentation as it's spread out on a lot of post on meta, links to blogs, and links here. Once I find something I have to read through information that's sort of identical to other posts on meta to find a possible gem.
I assume you have already consulted the FAQ which is linked from the room description?
I haven't reviewed it recently myself, though; it's probably lagging behind, it's not many weeks since the close reasons were changed
13:45
it takes PR's on github ... in case you find it lagging ...
@tripleee Do you mean this one? meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/295650/…
Hmm.. this one? socvr.org
^ NAA
@J.Steen It has an upvote, <3min :/
@Scratte yeah, it doesn't seem to discuss close reason in much detail though
13:58
@tripleee Sorry. The first or the second link? :)
@Scratte you can see which one I'm responding to by hovering your mouse over the thread ... the second
@tripleee: Ahh. Sorry, no, I didn't go through that one yet. I still have about 30 open tabs of links to read through :(
no sweat, it's fine to ask here if you want to discuss individual cases
@tripleee Ok. Just to be clear, general questions about review is off-topic?
@Scratte not at all; but not the central focus so maybe don't launch a massive tangential discussion too often
I would like a judgement call - is it me, or is this question unclear? stackoverflow.com/questions/59987954/…
@J.Steen Seems a bit too broad to me.
@TylerH Definitely. But I'm also wondering what on earth they want to achieve. =)
@J.Steen Well I'm assuming they want to perform dependency injection. They seem to think they're doing it in the code they provided, but that's not really the case.
So simply the standard way to perform it would ostensibly answer their question :-P
@TylerH I read it as they want to make fields be "injected" by every class "inheriting" from the same god-object...
Well! Not my place to judge if a solutions/challenges is weird.
M--
M--
15:45
@Lankymart it's typo
 
1 hour later…
@M-- I'm going to go with yes, OT SU
@M-- Nope, definitely off-topic: general computing.
@M-- Woops, I missread and thought you asked if it was off topic. Updated reply: I'm going to go with no, it's OT SU
@rene: I have a question about your script.
What does a match (=) in first-posts and late-answers mean? I understand that there's no calculation of consensus on those.
IIRC it counts review actions and if all are equal it produces a =
Worth mentioning that I created the script for the close vote and re-open queue
It only happens to "not crash" on the other queues as well
17:58
@rene Ohh.. I don't think I have access to those.
18:09
@Scratte you need to get some rep first, yes.
@rene Just a curiosity. The script seems to work on the triage queue, but only for pre-ban results :) I'll give you an update when the ban is lifted.
Re the recent SD report (about SwiftUI). The previous version of the question was very different. Maybe the comment answered the original question.
18:44
I asked my first SO question in ages... in java of all things. (Puts on flame suit)
@Scratte It works for me on the Triage queue
@Das_Geek Are you on a review-ban? :)
Not currently :)
@Das_Geek Try it if it happens. Most of the results I have on the review history are blank, despite the fast that when I go to one the links, a consensus has been found.
@Scratte That's probably to be expected, as SO's responses to your /review requests are probably returning something the script wasn't intended to handle
Though I might be totally wrong. I haven't fiddled around with the SE API too much
18:49
@Das_Geek That was also my conclusion. But it seems odd that only some of them are blank. About 80%
Meh. I prefer the other queues besides Triage, anyway. I feel...more effective in them
@Das_Geek I think I got my ban from one of those :D But when the ban is lifted, I'll check the triage to see if the 80% blank lines were just temporary
Nope.. it was a triage that got me the ban. Bummer :)
Yeah, I think the time (or two? I can't remember) I got the ban slam was from a mistake in Triage.
Something something something bad audit algorithms something something Meta pitchforks
@Das_Geek Three :-)
None were from Triage. :-)
To be fair, though, I think you made the correct decision all three times. So, don't put down the pitchfork.
=.=
the answer to my question was not that great lol
19:02
Did you apply for a refund, @Compass?
@Compass "-1 you should be using Kotlin"
19:15
@CodyGray Oh really, it was three? I remember the one being for four days so I figured it was at least two. Don't remember the third one. I think one of my responses was iffy; like, I should probably have dv-ed rather than clicked "No Action Needed"
Also, figures that you would be around to tell me about my reviews :P Not that I don't appreciate it. I'd rather know and be reminded of my failings so that I can be sure to carry those lessons into the future
The problem is, there's nothing you can learn from any of your "failed" audits.
Yeah, fair enough
I do remember being stung by one where I probably should have flagged as NAA (I think?)
I'm only looking at the audits cited in the ban messages. I don't know if you did something else dumb. :-)
@CodyGray Oh, you can be sure that I have :P
But yeah, glad to be of service. I pretty much only showed up to remind you of your failings. Carry on, everyone.
2
19:19
Some of my first flags are....embarrasing
Love you too, Cody <3
@CodyGray Untrue. You can learn that audits are sometimes wrong, and Meta can be an unforgiving place. Both are valuable
@Machavity and you could find that there is a question out there that needs a downvote and closevote
@Machavity I've been lucky enough to be not terribly received upon my infrequent excursions into Meta, but I'm constantly amazed at the wide swing of scores there. Guess it's a byproduct of no rep
19:37
The wide swing of scores is a byproduct of different people having different opinions.
True, and I believe this swing is tempered somewhat on main sites due to the rep effect from voting. Post scores tend to snowball more frequently on Meta...at least from what I've seen in my short time with the sites
Nah, it's tempered on main sites due to not discussing controversial and inherently opinion-based issues.
Yeah, great point
Hard to be controversial over an if statement
Though I've seen people try
You'd...be surprised.
Yeah
We programmers are a creative bunch at times.
Switch-case statements, those are controversial.
I have no idea what you're talking about ;)
19:43
There' s a coworker of mine who subscribes very strongly to the guide that "the more if statements you have, the more errors you'll have". I see their case on the matter, but I'm not going to switch over anytime soon
Indeed.
Actually, switch over constrained ranges is brilliant, because the compiler will double-check your work.
I agree that complex conditionals can be a code smell, but their fervor in this matter can sometimes be a bit...much
Oh I didn't think you were serious about controversial switches
I love them, just no type mixing (ew)
@AndrasDeak Easy to be controversial? Yeah, Python to the rescue.
19:46
easy to prevent arguing about switch at least :P
@Das_Geek I was, actually. Keeping semi-on-topic here for the room, I refer you to this, which I just found and closed as a duplicate.
whoah
Haven't seen that in a hot minute
@AndrasDeak Wasn't Go somewhat controversial in its feature selection? I've not used it, myself. Though it sounds fun :D
don't know, never seen it
It would be fascinating to explore how modern, optimizing C compilers would translate Duff's Device into machine code, versus a more straightforward construct. My intuition tells me that the output of Duff's Device would be suboptimal compared to a more straightforward construct that engaged the optimizer's pattern-matcher.
@Das_Geek Or the sequel, Stop.
@CodyGray Huh, was just about to ask you about machine code output, since you have that experience. I'd be interested to see, as well
19:55
Yeah, I mean, Duff's Device is basically just a way of forcing the compiler to unroll a loop. But modern optimizers already know to unroll loops when heuristics suggest that it makes sense.
Yeah, I don't know that there'd be too much of a difference
Being too clever tends to hurt you
2
20:07
Question title starts with "hey!" :-(
Question body contains no repro code. :-((
tag it with , closest we have to
Hey Julia, don't make it bad
Take a language and make it better
Remember to let it into your heart
Then you can start to make it better
@Das_Geek you use if statements?! ew! I code solely in a declarative manner. My code never asks if something is the case. Instead, it just makes it so.
:-P
Also no Roomba
@TylerH Alright, Picard
20:23
Of course, my comment was 100% in jest
All of my code is just a bunch of if statements
You guys use if statements? I only use conditional operators.
Fancy term
At least he didn't say ternary ;)
I actually like using ternary operators in JS
if condition0:
    ...
if condition1:
    ....
[100 more if statements]
if "help I'm trapped in an if statement factory":
    pass
20:32
^ nice AI code you have there
wait, did I just say the quiet part out loud?
The conditional operator is what most people call the ternary operator. But, strictly speaking, there are other possible operators that have 3 operands.
Ah, you mean []=
It's not three operands, but C++ will get a 3 character operator, The spaceship operator: <=>
It also has 3 distinct return values :)
for me, <=> is the three-way comparison operator, which is binary
[]= has three arguments: this, the index, and the rvalue
@JohnDvorak What language is that from?
20:38
Ruby
I’m still not sure how I feel about the spaceship...
Is it declaring a lambda, @John?
Ah. Never really looked at ruby code, too pricey for me
you can invoke it as ary[ix] = val or as ary.[]=(ix, val)
<=> returns -1, 0, or 1 depending on the result of comparison
=> separates keys from values in a hash literal
The former is...every language, right? Assignment to an index in an array? Or does Ruby do things weird?
->arg{code} is a lambda literal
In Ruby, it's a method of the array
20:42
I literally have no clue
ary[ix] invokes the [] method of ary. ary[ix] = val invokes the []= method.
Bracket notation refers to a specific method?
The nice part, ary can be any object that has the [] and []= methods respectively
foo + bar calls the + function on foo etc.
@NathanOliver the force is strong with this one <=>
-foo is equivalent to foo.-@()
20:44
These are not the values you are looking for
lol
I...am not sure I want to learn Ruby anymore
You do
20:46
That looks horribly confusing and non-standard
If the same user posts five (at least) link-only answers in 30 minutes, does that count as spam? Here's one.
@NathanOliver Yeah, I forgot a few exclamation points :P
@AdrianMole IMHO, Yes.
normally you don't touch the foo.[]=(ix, bar) syntax. You just define []= on your objects, and foo[ix]=bar magically works as well
@AdrianMole The assessment of spam should really be performed in a vacuum (i.e., on a single answer without looking at other answers). In the cited case, though, that is spam, even just looking at that one answer.
20:48
@AdrianMole are they all linking to the same thing?
All the same (or similar) links.
and do the links answer the question? and does OP have some kind of potential affiliation? etc.
at the very least they're all NAA if they're just a link to a youtube video
I gave four of them NAA flags, then I saw the 'repeat pattern' (bit slow on the uptake, today).
the only exception to the no-dot-op rule is calling lambdas as f.(args) - the other two options are f[args] or f.call(args)
@JohnDvorak So...is this like operator overloading in C++? [] is an operator that can be overloaded on any object, and it can be called either as an operator (syntactical sugar), or explicitly as a member function?
20:50
exactly
Today’s efficient mod hacks: dispatching all of Adrian’s spam/NAA flags, deleting all the garbage answers, removing the user account, and preventing any more such answers from getting into the system with only one action.
@JohnDvorak Oh, that’s reasonable, then.
@CodyGray That sounds like a big red button that would be dangerous in the wrong hands.
Yeah, I raised a mod flag on one of their posts. The video was not posted recently so it'd be hard to infer affiliation I think. However, rapidly posting answers that all link to the same video is pretty sketch
@AdrianMole that's why Cody is only a pair of glasses. No hands!
20:54
@AdrianMole Yeah, they gave it to me, no clue what they were thinking. Also, fun fact: it isn’t red.
SO’s mod tools don’t use anywhere near as much color-coding as I’d like.
Oh, go figure. The NAA flags were cleared but not the mod flag :P
@CodyGray Huh, would have figured you'd be generally against wild color-coding
@CodyGray User is back at it again. Don't think I should link to user posts here, but it's the most recent in SOBotics
@Das_Geek That is actually by design. Blunt actions like destroying a user or deleting a post don’t clear custom flags, since they might be telling us something more nuanced.
I think the spammer has been reincarnated: here.
Clearing custom flags in posts is a pain on mobile, because there’s no waffle bar.
@AdrianMole See my message here
20:58
Yeah, just flag these as spam
Will do
Creeping up on 6k flags. I'll pass it tomorrow :D
@Das_Geek Why is that? First off, using colors to impart semantic meaning is anything but “wild”. Destructive actions like delete and destroy should be colored red.
I added a watch for that YT video
@Machavity So you can watch it later tonight?
21:03
@CodyGray With popcorn. Mmm, Visual Studio videos...
@CodyGray Oh definitely, I totally agree. I probably was led to believe your opinion on colors was more general from your original opinion on colored lights in computers
@Das_Geek If your computer case had LEDs that lit up red for errors, and green for success, but remained neutral colored otherwise, I would have no problem with that.
@CodyGray It does, in fact. Color-coded POST status :D
And there's a little hex display that shows the error code if there is a failure
Oh, I approve. Those little displays showing POST error codes were the coolest thing back in the day when they were introduced and I was still doing computer repair.
Showing it in hex (which hilariously autocorrected to bed) is a step up from the bank of LEDs they used to have that showed it in binary.
Yeah, there were definitely times where I needed that. That and my previous mobo's three BIOS ROMs
Just flip a switch and go over to a clean image in case something went wrong in update or you messed up overclocking/voltage settings
21:10
I’ve seen two BIOS chips for backup/redundancy, but never 3. That seems overkill.
I haven’t overclocked since the Socket 7 days.
Yeah, it probably was. I think I only ever used two. The mobo was manufactured by a company that didn't normally make them...and it showed
But the parts that worked were super nice!
SuperMicro used to make the best motherboards. I guess they still do; I haven’t had occasion to buy one in a long time.
Oh nice. Just bought a 4U rackmount server from them
The last time I built a computer was almost 10 years ago. That was a Sandy Bridge i7-2600. I bought some stupid “gamer” branded board because it was full-featured, yet cheap. Most importantly, it had built-in PS/2 ports for my Model M.
That computer still isn’t too slow for daily work. I don’t even feel compelled to upgrade.
Yup, that was my previous computer's generation. i5-2500k: only just upgraded
Still kept the PS/2 port in the new one :D
21:17
It’s a super nice mainboard. Has been very stable. But every time you open up the case, you see this stupid “Fatality!1” branding and some visage of some gamer dude. I don’t know why anyone would ever want that.
Ohhhh lol I know those boards haha
Oh, nice! You can still find motherboards with built-in Ps/2?
Oh definitely. Usually the "gamer" type boards, since they understand a lot have the $$$ to keep quality keebs around
I still use a FoxConn MB with a Phenom X3 processor. I need to upgrade for gaming tho. Just barely at specs anymore
@Machavity That's why I upgraded mine. My old mobo only supported PCIe 2.0 and wasn't the most stable anyway
21:19
I suspect the fact that I don’t game is why I don’t feel compelled to upgrade anymore.
But for everyday work it was totally fine.
I do run a mean C++ compiler, though
Oh I thought you were a mean C++ compiler
One of these days, Visual Studio is going to get too bloated to launch.
yeah...
The times I've opened VS instead of VSCode have been...costly mistakes
Even opening VSCode is a mistake
@CodyGray that's when they'll make VS 64-bit and double the size of all the program executables out there
So what you're saying is...gVim
@TylerH D:
21:20
Seriously. You need a WinAPI text editor written in C++, like Programmer’s Notepad or Notepad++.
Oh I've used the crap out of Notepad++
I've always refused to use any text editor that doesn't have block select
@TylerH That’s not even the problem, though. It’s this bloated WPF UI. And this new theme of trying to take the worst limitations and performance of web apps, and bring them to the desktop.
I cannot rightly understand the confusion of ideas that could have led us to such a state.
Oh wow, another dupe "dupe" post notice! That's two in as many days; how did I not notice them before?
@Das_Geek At work, we have these configuration files that are formatted basically in rows and columns. We also have a GUI that is so slow and bloated and clunky that it’s easier to just use a text editor with column selection mode to edit the config files than to use the GUI. I’ve spread that throughout the company. Including to the person who maintains and develops the GUI....
@CodyGray Lol, nice. Efficiency can be very contagious
21:26
@Das_Geek It’s great for everyone but the end users, who are stuck with the GUi
It'd be a shame if something were to... happen to it
Like I were to sneak in over a long weekend and rewrite it?
Done things like that a couple of times. Don’t have time anymore...
While I do realize there are many cases where a GUI is indispensable, I'm an old fogey in that I prefer keeping my hands on the keyboard at all times where possible
@CodyGray Or maybe a storage drive was found to be not as redundant as previously thought
@Das_Geek That does not trade off with a good GUI. Keyboard accessibility is a thing. I use the crap out of it. Except in all the crappy apps that don’t support it, like these web apps ported to the desktop.
@Das_Geek That would be a disaster. This is literally our company’s flagship product.
@CodyGray Oh definitely, GUI + keyboard shortcuts can be better than no GUI
@CodyGray Well if something happens it wasn't me
21:34
Pretty soon, Oracle will break this software for us.
It being written in Java and targeting an old, obsolete version of the JRE.
I’ve suggested upgrading to a newer version of the JRE, but that apparently is too hard.
I've used a few Oracle things, I think. MySQL, NetBeans, btrfs. All that comes to mind, anyway
Never had the occasion to do much in Java
It’s like a very slow, bloated, incompatible, vendor-locked version of C++. With a vastly more restrictive feature set, and fewer supported platforms.
@CodyGray Sounds expensive :D
@Das_Geek Nah, they give it away free.
No I mean expensive for the customer who's buying the end product
Meaning your customer(s)
21:47
Oh yeah, we charge the heck out of them.
In complete seriousness, I do not understand how there are any advantages to Java over C++. The only argument I’ve ever heard made is that it is “portable”. Well, okay, so is C++. One requires a machine that has the JVM; the other requires a C++ compiler implementation. So that’s not an advantage, and actually turns into a disadvantage because that bytecode JIT compilation is still really slow. Startup takes ages by comparison, and everything feels much less responsive.
Don't you have to pay lots of money to program in C++?
Uhh, why would you have to do that? There are plenty of free and/or open source C++ compilers.
The big three are free
And so are a handful of others
Turbo-C is free (or is that one of the Big Three?)
21:55
Garbage collection
I thought I read somewhere that access to the C++ spec required you to fork over like $7,000
Microcontroller vendors also give away C and C++ toolchains
@TylerH The actually C++ standard cost money, but you really don't need it. All the drafts are free online
@TylerH Buying any language spec from an international standards organization is expensive. Absurdly so. Fortunately, you don’t need to own an official copy of the spec. You can get a draft copy, or none at all and just utilize the documentation for your compiler.
21:56
TIL
@AdrianMole The big three are MSVC, GCC, and Clang.
@NathanOliver Oh I thought you meant the big three languages
TurboC++ should be avoided at all costs, it's not standard compliant.
@AdrianMole Are you sure it’s free? It used to be paid-for software. It might be considered “abandonware”, but that’s not a legal category.
@NathanOliver neither is Google Chrome, guess we have to delete it from the web now :-D
21:58
please do!
Works for me
Well, the BCC5.5 command line tools are free - if you can find them.
and I got the Embarcadero C++ Builder IDE etc. free for a year.
I actually have CD's at home for MSVS6.0.
“free” and “if you can find them” generally aren’t compatible. The latter implies that you’re obtaining it illegally.
Fun part is I can't even use them
21:59
@NathanOliver Why not?
I don't have a CD drive in my computer
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