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M--
12:01 AM
Thank you. I am not that hung up by one flag getting rejected. But wanted to understand the grounds of that rejection for future :)
 
Yeah, trying to draw any general conclusions about this really isn't going to work. Flags for historical locks are just subject to being rejected. It's entirely at the discretion of the moderator who handles your flags. There aren't really firm guidelines on this.
Declined in these cases is just going to mean "Nah, I don't think this one needs a historical lock".
 
12:14 AM
 
Historical locks were basically introduced as a way to prevent valuable content from being deleted. Rewind the clock back some ways. SO had grown and refined its scope over the years, such that questions that had previously been allowed (and had garnered useful answers) were no longer on-topic. Those questions were rightfully closed. But not everyone was happy.
Some people thought that all off-topic questions should be deleted, since they were "broken windows". The concern was that their existence would be used as justification for asking similar, off-topic questions in the future. That concern was seemingly validated by the fact that this actually happened.
The other camp of people thought that deletion was contra-indicated in cases where there were useful answers, because deleting these Q&A was making the Internet a worse place: breaking links and eliminating valuable information. The idea was basically that you shouldn't cut off your nose to spite your face.
Everyone agreed that garbage questions should be deleted, but what to do about cases where previously off-topic questions with lots of views had garnered useful answers?
Was it enough to just keep those questions closed as a signal that they were now off-topic? The first group argued that it was not, pointing to the general rule that off-topic closure is a mere pitstop on the road to deletion. Eventually, all off-topic questions should be deleted. And, aside from whether or not you agreed with that, the reality was that many members of this "deletionist" group had delete vote privileges and were going to use them.
 
@halfer totally agreed. I commented to that effect with a tentative solution, let's see how it goes!
 
In fact, they were using them, to the extent that the anti-deletionists were unhappy about what they considered to be valuable content being lost.
So, a compromise of sorts was struck in the release of the "historical lock" feature, which kept the valuable content accessible on the site, made it very clear to everyone that it was no longer on-topic and no longer being maintained (thus preventing it from being used as justification for asking similar questions in the future), and prevented the deletionists from deleting it.
It isn't perfect. In particular, historical locks (like all locks) do prevent anyone (other than moderators) from editing and maintaining the Q&A to which it is applied, which kind of sucks, as you're essentially guaranteeing that stale content is going to be hosted. The argument is that that's OK, since once the content becomes no longer useful, it should be deleted, since that's the only argument for keeping it around.
But in practice, that doesn't really tend to happen, since you'd need a moderator to delete it once it's been locked.
Furthermore, the locks (despite significantly changing the view of the page) don't really prevent people from using the existence of these historical off-topic questions as evidence that similar off-topic questions can be asked now.
But it's still better than having a delete-vote tug-of-war on old questions.
 
... damn I kinda split a very nice story time here :( if someone were to remove my message, it'd make for a very nice bookmark
 
I guess this concludes today's episode of Stories With Cody, unless anyone has questions. :-)
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8:38 AM
@karel you are usually expected to cast a close vote yourself, too; did you forget?
 
@tripleee They need another 136 rep in order to be able to cast close votes.
 
oh sry, my memory is playing tricks, I thought the limit was 2k
 
Nice trick I just found yesterday - search for "please help" is:Answer on the main site, and most of the results will be NAA.
 
 
 
1 hour later…
10:37 AM
 
@Shree Would you like to review the edit suggestion on that post?
 
:D tripleee already done.
 
@halfer That is not true. I have already executed this before and most of the posts are not NAA
 
hi guys
can anyone assist me with the link whereby the following was answered:
 
10:54 AM
@Ashish.S this room isn't for support - you can raise a question on the main site though. I saw your most recent post and unfortunately it doesn't meet the requirements, have a read through of the How to Ask page and re-do your question to meet the standards and we should be good to go :)
 
11:07 AM
What should I do with this answer? Try to edit or flag as NAA? stackoverflow.com/a/54672408/1839439
 
 
2 hours later…
1:19 PM
Morning
 
1:33 PM
Morning o/
 
o/
 
o/
 
 
2 hours later…
 
1 hour later…
4:37 PM
 
5:12 PM
Most of the tag icons are gone at the same time as the one on c tag. Was this announced? Not that I miss them, just curious
 
It's probably a bug, or they are just mid-development or something
 
Aha!
 
I don't C an issue with the tag in this C++ question
it was experiencing that bug the other day
 
Yes, it was C and C++ tags
Angular lost its icon
 
Is "LAMP (for Linux OS)" on the php tag info page misleading? Linux is a very broad thing and XAMPP won't work on CentOS (without the UI being installed).. also, XAMPP is linked above it with info saying it can be used on Linux..
 
5:42 PM
 
6:30 PM
@treyBake Ugh, the wiki is horrible. I took a chainsaw to it, since they lowered the chars for it
5
 
But it has an official logo!
 
@Das_Geek But is that the logo for Personal Home Page or PHP Hypertext Preprocessor?
 
Even I agree with this drastic measure
Could I ask you to fix the links to dasunhegoda.com as well please?
We have official docs we don't need to link to nonexistent site.
hhm, actually the links are not displayed it seems.
 
6:46 PM
@TylerH Are you around?
 
@Machavity you are my hero :)
 
7:15 PM
@CodyGray Yes
 
@TylerH You raised a flag on Meta suggesting that the CEO Q&A is not appearing. Are you still reproducing that problem? It shows up fine for me, and has been ever since it was featured. The way the system is supposed to work is that [featured] questions appear in the sidebar in most recently featured order, up to a maximum of 2.
Also, you said Martijn re-featured another thread... I can't find any evidence of that. I guess he subsequently reversed it since your flag? Which question were you thinking of?
 
@CodyGray I'm not. I assumed someone had removed the featured tag, but looking now it seems it wasn't removed from one of the other three. I... can't find where Martijn removed/re-added the tag that I recalled seeing earlier. Weird. Feel free to ignore that bit. Twas before coffee this morning, so maybe that caused me to imagine things.
 
@TylerH Mmkay. Just wanted to check with you that I wasn't missing something before I ignored it.
 
Thanks
Yeah I think I saw that the 7-day featured one was last modified by Martijn and mixed that up in my head w/ him being the last to edit the question rather than anything in the Q&A thread
 
@TylerH Yeah, he deleted something there, so that could have been the baloney sandwich.
 
@Dharman Perhaps search is broken for you ;-). I have used this phrase to find a run of 10 NAA within the space of half a day.
 
@halfer ok, I did spent some time today going through this search and I flagged 10-15 posts, but it was difficult to find them. It's definitely not majority of the results.
 
Just let Natty find them for you :) Best solution
 
@Das_Geek Natty doesn't catch them all. I report a lot of posts manually every day
and then you have gems like undeleted by OP after it was deleted from queue. Or a post was edited into NAA (I have seen few which had edits approved by the author)
 
@Dharman I have found that some of the false positives are a result of good answers quoting begging material from the OP. I will sometimes remove the begging material from the OP, and then update (or remove) the quote block to match.
 
8:03 PM
I judge that about 10% of the results are NAA the rest should be edited. Maybe once I have some more time I will join you.
 
@Dharman It probably does find them, but the "NAA score" it gives the posts is too low for SOBotics. You could look at all of them manually, then you're right back where you started :P
 
dbc
Say I come across an answer that is clearly "Not An Answer". Is there any way to find out whether it's already in the review queues, so I can review it instead of flagging it for review?
 
@Machavity Ugh, when did that character limit change happen?
 
@dbc rene had a userscript, but I stopped using it as it was giving me IP ban
 
@CodyGray I don't know. It's been a while since I edited a large wiki like that. PHP had about 35k characters and trying to tweak and submit gave me a 30k hard limit error
I bet it was added today
Yep, it seems to be a change today. Note edit 470 was accepted and there's been a push since then
 
8:08 PM
@Dharman Seems like it was an answer to the question, so I tried to edit. It may still be a mess. I'm unsure what to make of it, really. But deleting it seems counter-indicated, as it would destroy value.
@dbc There is no real point. Just flag it as "not an answer" if you haven't already.
 
dbc
@CodyGray OK, will continue to do.
 
@CodyGray Thanks.
 
8:31 PM
@Machavity Wow that was...a lot of chaff
 
@Das_Geek I'm not convinced there wasn't some spam in there. Someone had added a link to a YouTube channel with tutorials
 
D:
Though in its defense, the wiki was a good analogue for how PHP was for many years: overly verbose, clunky, and probably containing cheap cuts of meat.
 
@Das_Geek php_wiki_real_chainsaw();
 
Oh god, the horrors. real_escape_string gave me so many nightmarish debugging days
 
Funny thing is that's not a PHP convention at all. MySQL named their function that so PHP kept their convention
 
8:43 PM
@dbc My favorite way is if a user leaves one of the stock comments from the review page, which has a "From Review" link to the review.
There's the userscript Review Finder (GitHub), which enables searching for a specific post ID on the review queue's history page, but that takes time/effort.
Usually such answers are score < 0, so with 20k+ rep you can just cast a delete-vote and raise an NAA flag. A delete-vote is, mostly, equivalent to a "delete" review.
Functionally, just raising an NAA flag (and not delete-voting) is substantially less than a "delete" review. An additional NAA flag on an answer that's already in the LQP review queue just means that the answer must get one additional "Looks OK" review result in order to be removed from the queue. Thus, an additional NAA flag doesn't really do much. But, obviously, if there's not already an NAA flag on it, then the flag is fairly important.
Most of the time, I: downvote (if score >= 0, and some other times, if particularly bad); delete-vote (if score < 0); and raise an NAA flag.
 
Ah, that's a good wall. Been a while since we've had one of those
 
:-)
 
That will be your moderator candidacy announcement: I will build a wall and make Stack Exchange pay for it!
 
dbc
@Makyen I'd already figured out the trick of clicking on the "From Review" link. Thanks for the link to "Review Finder", I may take a look.
But I usually don't downvote not-an-answer answers if they're still at 0, since it doesn't feel... kind. If it's already below zero I do vote to delete + flag, otherwise just flag.
 
I'll downvote if it's a not-new user (and score >= 0). Otherwise I'll just comment
Or if the other answers have zero-score, as well. Just so the NAA one goes below the real ones
 
dbc
8:51 PM
Downvoting only if the user is not new... actually is kind of fair for blatant not-an-answer answers. Flags on those sorts of things generally do the job quickly so the DV serves as a mild admonition to the poster telling them they should know better by now.
Correction: If it's already below zero I do vote to delete + flag + comment, otherwise just flag + comment.
 
Can NAA posts that have been accepted be removed through flags? I would think no, but I've been wrong before
If they can't be removed, what should be the procedure? Give up and move on?
 
@Das_Geek Can you delete an accepted answer with delete flags? If so, probably. If not, I would say that mods handle it.
 
@Das_Geek Never give up. Flag
 
@Dharman I did :)
I'll always flag something I think should be flagged
But I was asking to help set my expectations for the effectiveness of that flag
 
@Das_Geek If an NAA or VLQ review is approved, it goes to the mods and then they can delete if they feel it qualifies. Otherwise the answer wont be deleted unless 20Kers or a mod does it
 
9:00 PM
Aug 24 '16 at 15:09, by Machavity
He's going to build a close/delete bot and he's going to make Experts Exchange pay for it
 
Generally my flags are mostly handled by mods. I suppose the queue works the same, but I never paid attention to this detail. If the queue can't handle it then mods will
 
@NathanOliver Got it, thanks. I knew there were some conditions for the roomba not deleting, but wasn't sure if that block applied to users
I guess thinking about it more, they should be able to be deleted, or else it would be trivial to set up "accepted" spam answers
 
@Das_Geek Spam will always delete, even if it is accepted. That's why you should always use the nuke flags. They go so much faster and actually do something.
 
@NathanOliver The caveat there is score. Mod review happens if the answer is positive score. If it's <=0 it gets deleted automatically. And 20kers can't delete positive score answers
 
Oh yeah, forgot about that. I'm so used to questions where we can delete positive ones.
 
9:16 PM
@Makyen More NAA flags do escalate priority in the mod queue. But I guess that assumes we have enough mods to review these.
@dbc Downvoting non-answers is not unkind. It is, on the contrary, unkind to everyone to avoid downvoting these. You should not be flagging as NAA if you don’t think the answer deserves a downvote.
 
@Das_Geek Answers with positive scores aren’t deleted through review. But we do get mod flags on them when they receive delete votes via review. ANOTHER REASON TO DOWNVOTE!!
 
@CodyGray Well sure, I'll always downvote a positive-score NAA
 
Someone was just talking about not downvoting
I want to highlight the wrongness of that
And then underline it and make it blink
 
Ah. I won't downvote if the answer is already negative, ususally
@CodyGray <marquee> ANOTHER REASON TO DOWNVOTE!! </marquee> ?
 
9:20 PM
What’s the point of that?
The not-downvoting. I know the point of <marquee>
 
What if I find NAA with score of 5, should I downvote?
 
I don't see the point in adding another to the pile it if it's already negative. The flags and existing downvotes should be enough. If there is some system by which posts with more downvotes get processed faster, then I would amend that
 
If you’re flagging something as NAA, you should be downvoting it. Read the tooltip on the downvote arrow, folks.
 
@CodyGray It creates a scrolling loop of text. Like old Windows screensavers
 
@Das_Geek They get greyed out in the UI. For questions, they get hidden from the front page and interesting questions views.
 
9:24 PM
@CodyGray Well questions are a whole 'nother ball of wax. I'm talking about answers
 
@Das_Geek Gah! I even clarified!
 
@CodyGray Oops, I misread that as don't know. Sorry
 
I just do not get this avoiding downvoting because someone else already did. Do you also avoid upvoting because someone else already did? Do you avoid voting for president because someone else already voted for your candidate? (Hmm, maybe that’s how we ended up with the current state of affairs.…)
 
I avoid voting, because quite often I don't have enough of them...
 
Pro-tip: When a post is deleted, you get your votes back.
 
9:26 PM
Yes, but you have to wait a while.
 
(And the rep you lose from downvoting, for you bean-counters)
 
Well I don't care about rep lost from downvoting NAAs, since I do know I'll get it back. I use downvotes mainly to filter answers if there are others, so that they're at the bottom and less visible.
@CodyGray Not to delve into politics too much, but I did vote more freely during my state's primaries because I knew which candidate would win, and so I could vote for the person I thought was best rather than being strategic (not that I usually am)
@CodyGray Plus isn't there a "2-for-1" rule that prevents you from downvoting too often?
 
@Das_Geek I doubt it...
 
Yeah, first past the post voting is broken; I think we all know that.
@Das_Geek No? Never heard of this. I downvote a lot...
 
same here
not mine though ^
 
9:34 PM
Huh, I could have sworn I read that somewhere
 
don't believe everything you read on the internet
 
Well it was an upvoted answer on a meta question
Was it a Jeff post? I'll have to try and find it
 
especially don't believe everything you read on SO
 
dbc
@CodyGray I don't necessarily disagree. But, for not-an-answer answers I've been guided by You're doing it wrong: A plea for sanity in the Low Quality Posts queue which suggests downvoting wrong and low-quality answers while simply deleting non-answers. Is that incomplete? I mean, non-answers tend to get removed fairly quickly anyway, especially questions-as-answers and i'm-having-that-problem-too answers.
 
@Das_Geek There’s an advisory if you vote a lot on answers that “questions need votes, too”. It’s unrelated to the direction of your vote.
 
9:36 PM
@Das_Geek Are you thinking about the serial-voting reversal script?
 
@dbc perhaps the motivation there is that downvotes on NAA are pretty much wasted. These days I usually downvote + delvote along with an NAA flag just to be sure
 
@CodyGray I think I predominantly vote on questions, anyway
@Makyen I don't believe so
 
@dbc To be clear, that’s recommending downvoting in lieu of flagging/deletion on answers that do not meet the definition of the “not an answer” flag. It isn’t implying not to downvote NAA.
 
@Makyen Heh I just voted R/A
 
@Das_Geek I suspect I predominantly vote down questions and vote up answers. For a variety of reasons.
Yeah...that's gonna be abusive regardless of whether or not it's spam. Don't waste your investigative skills all in one place....
 
9:48 PM
@CodyGray Yeah, I suspect more of my answer votes are up than down (excluding NAA votes). Mostly because I'm often not a SME and can't properly judge an answer's usefulness
 
@Das_Geek Right, that's one of the big reasons why I think I have more upvotes on answers. I abstain from voting on answers where I can't judge the usefulness or correctness of an answer.
 
dbc
Relatedly, if I downvote + vote-to-delete an answer (assuming the score goes below 0 and it's not accepted), does it automatically get submitted to the Low Quality Posts queue, making the flag irrelevant?
 
Although, being a regular reader of the "Worst of Stack Overflow" queue, I suspect that my downvotes to answers have increased.
@dbc No.
2
 
dbc
So always flag "not-an-answer" answers, regardless of votes (unless I cast the last "delete" vote and delete it, I suppose).
 
Of course.
Stop overthinking it, or figuring out how the system works. You don't need to understand how the system works.
If it's not an answer and you think it should be removed, flag it as such. Clearly, these posts also qualify for downvotes, as they are unclear and/or not useful.
If you come across a post that you believe is unclear or not useful, but it was an attempt to answer the question, then just downvote it (don't flag it).
 
9:53 PM
Uh, wasn't that last Smokey report an edit?
 
@Das_Geek Yes; investigating. The asker self-deleted, which validated the Smokey report. Looks like they vandalized and deleted because they included some sensitive info.
 
Ah, okay. With mods around, things can go *poof* quickly, so I wanted to make sure
 
The poof is correct. The comment quoting the leaked password was...less than ideal. :-)
 
Oh wow. Didn't see it in the first place, but that's...wow
 
dbc
Flagged that comment myself. But the $pass="no I won't show it here"; //Пароль от MySql is still visible in the deleted question, maybe it should get expunged?
 
9:59 PM
I submitted a redaction request. Requires another mod to approve it before it goes through, @dbc.
 
But, maybe they should change their password anyway.
 
Let me download their stuff first ...
 
Already did; wasn't very good. Just a bunch of PHP code...
 
@CodyGray Yeah, but it was useful PHP code. That alone makes it rare and valuable
 
10:07 PM
@Das_Geek How could you tell?
Based on the fact that they were asking a question, it seemed like it wasn't working.
 
Oh I couldn't see it at all; not enough rep to see deleted things. I just couldn't resist a jab at PHP :)
 
Right, I was just wondering how it is possible to tell that PHP code is "useful".
 
The first steps usually contain things like making sure certain common mistakes aren't there, and that things aren't overly complex, etc. Usually everything that's left is either "hello world" or something good
But the general method is the same for all languages: stare at it for hours and pray for divine inspiration
 
@Das_Geek You apparently write code very differently from how I do...
 
@CodyGray Oh? Do you prefer to pray for infernal inspiration instead?
 
10:18 PM
@Das_Geek You don't just copy and paste the code from an SO answer like everyone else?
 
@Das_Geek Cody doesn't pray over his code - other people pray for him to write code for them.
 
@AdrianMole Fair enough
@NathanOliver Oh I just assumed everyone knew that "divine inspiration" = "finding the right answer on SO"
 
It's to the point where even though most of my company's work is done super-secretly on an air-gapped network, we still download data dumps of SO to provide an offline copy "inside"
 
Wow. I...don't really even use Stack Overflow very much when writing code.
It's a great resource when I'm learning/teaching myself something new, though.
 
10:25 PM
I don't either, but the times that I have used it I've been very glad, especially in areas I wasn't strong in. Hard to realize what might be wrong if you don't even know about the possibility of that thing going wrong
 
10:38 PM
@Dharman for those kind of questions, you know you can add NATO to the close reason? socvr.org/faq#what-should-request-reasons-contain “[if a question] is otherwise quite old with a new answer, it is helpful to indicate that by including text similar to "(NATO)" in your request reason”
 
@sideshowbarker I use the script to generate those. Personally I do not see any added benefit in saying NATO
 
ah OK
just wasn’t sure if you were aware
 
@Das_Geek Also hard to search for that thing
 
@CodyGray Hard to search for the cause, sure. But if I knew the cause I wouldn't need to search. But it's real easy to search for a symptom, which is what I have if I don't know the cause
 
10:54 PM
I wouldn't be able to code without Stack Overflow.
 
11:12 PM
Wow, vandalizing a post from almost 10 years ago
 
I rolled it back - is that OK?
 
yep!
That's the thing to do
@AdrianMole All content posted to the Stack Exchange network of sites is perpetually and irrevocably licensed to SE, Inc. Vandalism, even self-vandalism, should be rolled back
 
That's how I saw it. @Dharman added the comment I was still looking for. :)
 

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