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00:01
@KenWhite Isn't that question on-topic for SoftwareEngineering?
@Andreas-he-her- Looks like it to me. Definitely too broad for SO.
@KenWhite It should be moved instead of just closed, then.
@Andreas-he-her- I don't think Software Engineering is one of the standard move destinations, is it?
No, I just checked, and it's not. That means that we can't move it.
If you feel strongly, you can mod flag still, right?
@KenWhite @robsiemb I've already put a moderator flag on it.
00:11
winter bash hats are back.....
And.... there's a bug. :-)
00:50
@Makyen Yeah, seems like we've already jumped into the future, got my 2020 glasses. lol
:)
01:37
Is it ok to tell the Spanish speaking guy in Spanish why his post was closed and what to do about it? stackoverflow.com/questions/59241370/…
@tink I haven't seen anyone rampantly deleting those if thats what you mean. The post is closed and will be roombaed so any possible long term harm seems minimal...
@robsiemb I realise that it's going to go away ... I just thought that giving a first-time posted a hint as to where he went wrong in a language he's bound to understand would be nice ..
@tink Yeah, I meant that if there was a concern about it being a non-english comment, it's already going to be deleted anyway so the benefit, to me, outweighs the harm.
Just don't want to get an infraction of my own for being nice ;)
@tink Oddly the meta post I'd expect to address it only says that you can leave a comment, but nothing about if non-english comments in this case are ok.
01:45
Heh .. Cool - I'm ok with that and thanks for digging it up! @robsiemb
02:00
@tink Please don't leave non-English comments, even if you're trying to be helpful. The rule that all content must be in English applies to everyone, no matter who "started" posting the non-English content.
Moderators will delete non-English posts on sight, including comments.
OK @CodyGray, I'll cull my comment, even though I think it's pretty rough on first time posters not to have the slightest idea as to why they were shot/shut down ...
@tink You can tell them in English... If they can't read that, well, one wonders how they ever ended up here and managed to ask a question.
heh - fair comment; I'll guess that a google search for "java eclipse" may have led him here ;) ... that said: he has used es.stackoverflow.com before, so ... meh.
Yeah, that's possible. Unfortunately, there isn't a lot we can do to help people who are well and truly clueless.
I will generally close non-English questions as off-topic with a custom reason, instead of just "unclear what you're asking". (And especially now that the verbiage for that reason has been changed.)
Some people will suggest asking on es.so, but I don't do that because: (1) it's too hard for me to tell exactly which language is it (e.g., is it Spanish or Portuguese?), and (2) I won't recommend migration/re-asking for crap questions, and if I can't read the question, I don't know whether or not it's crap.
02:32
Fair comments all ... I've been learning Spanish for 3 years now, and while I couldn't claim to be fluid I understand it fairly well, and can definitely tell it apart from Portuguese and Romanian ;)
/s/fluid/fluent
@CodyGray Thanks for clarifying!
I can understand a few words and phrases of spoken Spanish, but I can't speak it at all, and I certainly can't reliably distinguish it from similar-looking languages.
Thunks :)
@KenWhite It was just edited with code. Are you claiming that the code is not sufficient to reproduce the problem, or have you yet to notice the edit?
02:43
@CodyGray There seems to be a lot of information missing, and there's a lot of code commented out. I can't see how to get to a MCVE from what's been posted.
Moved my hat bug to Meta.SE
@SamuelLiew Thanks. The MSE dupe is confusingly named
03:03
@Machavity Did you get the hat for having been haunted with shame for asking a duplicate question?
Or is there not one of those this year?
hat... hat... tchoum!
Hat tes souhaits!
 
1 hour later…
04:31
@CodyGray My hat says 2020. It's a duplicate in it
@EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica There is no point in deleting a question that is "too broad" less than an hour after it was closed. The asker should have a chance to edit. That is, after all, the whole point of closure.
6
 
1 hour later…
user10957435
06:05
5.2k. That's definitely a lot lower than before...
@Chipster Lower what?
user10957435
Sorry, that was cryptic. The CVQ. Down to 5.2k.
 
2 hours later…
 
3 hours later…
11:22
@MikeM. I like that title :D
@Adriaan Too bad the actual question was not as advertised. :-)
 
2 hours later…
Winter Bash 2019 is on, baby!
2
Oh wow. I though with how late it was getting it was canceled.
goal today: get any hat.
13:44
@HovercraftFullOfEels another of those wonderful titles. Is today "vague-title-bonanza" or something?
@Adriaan Sounds like a good contest to hold
@JL2210 Really? I need to work on getting a hat. Too bad I'm living in the future
@Machavity Nice hat
14:10
I didn't know there was a Licensing or a Legal close reason...
o/
@JL2210 they are "soft" off-topic, if you will. The community has determined that, since they're not about programming but rather about law, and because we have a site specifically dedicated to law/legal compliance questions, that such questions are off-topic on Stack Overflow.
Ideally license or TOA, etc. questions should be asked directly of the company/organization, though.
@JL2210 They are custom closing reasons, therefore can be used
14:33
Is this question general computing, or on-topic? (Smokey's last)
@Adriaan I'd say general computing
I say on-topic, ROS is a software, its installation can be considered programming related
installation of a program? I'd say general computing
I would argue that we should edit out swearings. It's rude, point
@Vega IMO, installation of programming-related tools is not enough to fall under the 'programming-related' umbrella. That umbrella covers use of said tools. Installation is purely "general use" unless you're somehow programmatically installing it...
then again it's Linux (Ubuntu) so all bets are off
sometimes you have to re-invent Calculus just to install stuff
14:37
That's my understanding as well. If you have installation problems, you likely need OS help, and that's definitely off-topic. Configuration is greyer, but I tend to let it slide (see Docker)
I am lost ;) Which criteria is used for questions about installation that we would consider on topic?
@Vega none, if the question is purely "how do I install x" where X is running an executable install file.
@TylerH Thank you for the clarification. Still processing 🤔
@Vega Sounds like you need a new processor :-) I'm happy with my Ryzen 5 3600X I just installed!
Except the fan is being stupid...
@TylerH I really need one, you guessed right! My Mac is freezing these days :(
14:46
@TylerH That upgrade went well?
Didn't have that for years
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica actually it didn't go well T_T had a series of issues...
First, I unscrewed the fan/heatsink from the Ryzen 3 1300X, but it didn't want to come off. I should've twisted it back and forth a bit but it's been a while since I did CPU work so I forget.
Anyway, I'll be damned if some piece of metal is gonna get the best of me, so I just yoink it off by pulling harder
so the CPU itself comes off too! still completely attached to the heatsink thanks to the thermal paste
You ripped the CPU out of the socket???
14:49
Either the locking arm latch on the motherboard failed or I never properly secured it in the first place... anyway, luckily there was no damage to the CPU or the seat
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica yeah...
Wow.
You got really lucky nothing broke
So right there and then I was already like "welp... this could be going better"
anyway, then I put the new CPU in and locked it down nice and snug with the latching arm
and I put the new heatsink (stock with the pre-applied paste) on it and tried to tighten it down
only then I notice, the screws won't reach for some reason
and I'm like "come on. what it this nonsense?"
All without asking any question on Super User?
14:51
so I look and all I see are four holes in the motherboard itself, so I'm thinking "well maybe they screw in there and it's OK?" But I try a bit more and I'm like "no I can't get this to reach even with tilting that side of the heatsink/fan to reach it"
Doesn't the AMD heatsink just attach to two clips on the sides of the socket?
and at this point I'm worried that the wraith for the R3 has different requirements from the wraith for the R5 for how it attaches, because the picture in the little install booklet had the motherboard with two little plastic side mounts for the fan, like older mobos
no, for AM4 they are four screws, not clips
well, maybe motherboards come with clips for aftermarket heatsinks, I can't remember.
so at this point I'm thinking "crap, I don't know if I have some of those at all, and if I do I don't know where I would've put them"
but then I look closer at the motherboard and I'm thinking "surely the R3 cooler was not just screwed into those wafer-thin holes... they wouldn't reach and even if they did they have no threads or anything to screw in to
luckily I have the idea to lift the case of my computer a bit and tilt it back and forth
Sure enough, I hear something sliding around a bit underneath the mobo
Oh, your back plate fell out.
yep
it's supposed to be permanently adhered to the back of the motherboard
thermal paste vs MB adhesive. Thermal paste wins ;)
14:56
so I take everything out of the motherboard and then unscrew it from the computer and pull it out. Luckily the back plate is still perfectly intact. So I stick it back on the back of the mother board while it's still out of the case, and, while holding the two things together in one hand, screw down the heatsink/fan with my other hand
burned-in thermal paste, to boot...
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica All the AMDs I've worked with at work don't have glued backplates. Have to unscrew the clips and screw the stock heatsinks to them
For reference the motherboard I have is a Gigabyte AB350-Gaming-3 gigabyte.com/us/Motherboard/GA-AB350-Gaming-3-rev-1x#kf
I'm guessing (based on earlier) questions about IDE's are on-topic?
@treyBake typically, yes
@TylerH OK, that's cool :) just making sure before I rush'd a vtc haha
14:57
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica so then I put the motherboard back into the case and screw it down, then put everything back in, and boot her up.
@treyBake Depends exactly on the Q but generally they qualify for SU, not SO
Only now, my M.2 SSD isn't detected at all even in BIOS
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica ahh the plot thickens! I'll judge it and see if I can close it :) not a fan of the IDE questions, feels like they should be raised with the IDE support team :S
So I go back to Gigabyte's drivers webpage and look at the BIOS firmware list. I am on r40 (up from r6 before I bought the Ryzen 5) which is the minimum needed for Ryzen 3rd-gen support.
Turns out, revision 41 or 43 or something has listed "improved M.2 support" which I definitely read before hand, but at the time I thought "my M.2 SSD works just fine right now, I don't need that". Turns out they meant "M.2 support for 3rd gen Ryzen, period" instead.
15:00
So I flashed the BIOS for like the 4th time since starting the project up to their latest version and now I can boot into Windows just fine and dandy.
Except the fan likes to spin up to high RPMs constantly (2500, 2600, even 2800 sometimes) as the load increases
and of course speedfan and hwmonitor and all that can't detect the CPU fan at all because the chip is so new and those apps are never updated
so I have to go back into the BIOS at some point and try to cap the RPMs somehow
or adjust the gradient at which it increases speeds at least
I was hoping for a simple option in Ryzen Master or Gigabyte's utilities or something that just lets me say "never go above X RPM"
I can't wait to have these adventures once all my new computer parts come. We can serialize these hijinks as Crappy Computer Capers
@Das_Geek well this is the 7th time or so I've replaced a CPU/gutted a computer of mine and I've never had such hijinks happen before
Don't feel to bad. I have all my fans connected via commander pro's and I'm not liking that, I don't want to have to use iQue to adjust all my fans. I'm going to get PWM splitters and run them to the MB instead so I can use the ASUS fan expert.
@TylerH Well you've had better luck than me
though when I did initially upgrade to Ryzen I had to go buy a PS/2 keyboard to get through setup because I was still running Windows 7. And I had to hack the update process to still get updates for a while
15:04
@TylerH Thats what made me take the jump to new hardware. My stuff is so old it won't upgrade to 10
before that the worst luck I had was the first time I ever tried to upgrade something in a computer -- bought a new motherboard and it came Dead On Arrival
luckily I RMA'd it and they sent a new one
@Das_Geek Most important aspects: get an NVMe M.2 SSD and at least 16GB of RAM.
@TylerH had to do the same for my new case. Now I'm waiting around with all the parts, just nothing to put them in :'(
Combine that with W10's architecture improvements and you'll be amazed at how bloody quick the whole experience is
15:05
@TylerH I got a PCIe 4 M2 and 32 GB RAM
It has a friggin' heatsink
for computer cases I'm partial to Fractal Design
yeah I looked at those
I wanted a pseudo-testbench setup, with my mobo parallel to the ground
Ended up going for a cube case
@TylerH My new PC I just built uses a define S6. I really like that case.
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica Ugh, I'm jealous. I have an Define R5
(I'm guessing you meant the R6... I don't know about an S6. maybe I'm out of the loop!)
@TylerH Yeah, R6
The funny thing about the case is I wound up removing almost everything that was in it since I wanted the open layout and I don't have any non m.2 drives.
15:32
Morning.
How do we handle self-dupes?
@TylerH @NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica Alright, you both convinced me. I'm just gonna pop over to microcenter later and pick up an R6 rather than wait two weeks for a weirdly-oriented case
@SecretAgentMan morning o}
I started to edit a post and when I did a quick search of some keywords, I found something that is almost identical (same OP). (1, 2)
@Das_Geek It is really nice. So many configuration options. Cable management is pretty good as well. My only suggestion is you might need longer power cables depending on how you route them. I'm ordering a set from cable mod and I'm going to get the EPS and 24 pin cables a little longer so they route better
15:37
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica Good to know. My PSU is modular so I might just do that. I went with the case because it was nice and compatible with my 360mm radiator
First time ever getting a mid tower, though. I've only ever gotten full towers previously
I've got a 360mm AIO and it fits nicely. The case will actually support 2 360's and a 240 if you want to go all out
@SecretAgentMan looks like they found it unsatisfactory that their question wasn't reopened after translating, and simply re-posted it. Simply flag as a duplicate. If the original is reopen-worthy, vote as such, if not: tell them how to improve it before reopening.
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica whoa, did I just observe you using proper units?
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica Sweet, thanks for the confirmation. I don't have a custom loop yet, but it's nice to know my options in case I ever do go for it
Just my AIO for the CPU
@Adriaan For computers I don't use freedom units. Everything else is.
@Adriaan Yeah most small-scale and electronic-type dimensions are done in science units. Except some places, which then you're ordering 4.75689x8.67422 freedoms
For one of my projects, the final board had to be manufactured in the US, and let's just say there were some tolerances lol
15:41
@Das_Geek No problem. The top of the case has a radiator tray and what you'll do it take that out, bolt the radiator to it, and then you can drop the whole thing into the case and reattach the radiator mount with 4 screws. This makes doing the cable management and fan install real easy.
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica Yeah I think I saw that
Maybe doing all this will finally motivate me to actually install the cable-routing addons I have for my desk
Rather than pile them all on top of the power strips :P
@Adriaan Will do. The dupe flag language "and already has an answer" made me question that action at first. Thanks for clarifying. I swear I'll stop asking these types of questions one day.
@SecretAgentMan it's confusing; agree. The exception to "already has an answer" is a self-dupe, since that's usually the OP not understanding the system (either through on-purpose rule flaunting of reposting, or simple misunderstanding of the edit concept)
15:46
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica Looks like we have the same AIO. Did you buy any fans in addition to what came with the case? I read about the fancy "silent maglev" Corsair fans, but idk how much of that is gimmick jargon
> Highly active question. You have enough reputation to answer this question. The reputation requirement helps protect this question from spam and non-answer activity.
Huh? Is that banner the new "protected" text?
I bought 9 LL fans. I wanted the ML but microcenter was out of them. AFAIK the ML fans are quiter and have the same performance. I took the 3 140mm fans out that came with the case since they were not RGB.
@Adriaan Yes
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica wierd, especially since it's not "Highly active" in this case, it's just protected :s Especially since the help centre still calls them "protected" and not "highly active"
@Adriaan Do you have a link to the Q? I wonder if they use that language when the system auto protects.
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica Debating whether or not to embrace the RGB. The AIO and RAM I got have them, but I only got them because they were good deals. Something blue-related since my mouse/keeb combo is blue-backlit
15:50
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica stackoverflow.com/posts/33621808/timeline community indeed protected this
Wording is horrible though; I wouldn't call 3 deleted answers in 4 years "highly active"
@Das_Geek I went RGB, but I only use the B ;) My build theme was black and blue so all the leds are just running r 0 g 0 b 255 and all the cables are black. RGB puke was not something I wanted.
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica Fair. Yeah I might do that, with the one downside being I have to make sure any keeb upgrades also have blue support lol. I would hate to mix and match like that
Hello again, all. I'm a couple days late, but it's thrilling to see that the review queue is shrinking - seems the 3 votes thing is getting stuff done.
Any RGB KB should be able to do an all blue layout.
@Adriaan True, but it did have high "bad answer" activity. Not sure if it's worth doing anything about.
@NickReed Yes, it was a resounding success when it was an experiment. I'm not sure if the queue will ever empty but IIRC it was down to 3K items after 30 days of the experiment.
That's a hell of a lot better than 8k, just seeing the pile shrink fills me with vigo(u)r and motivation.
15:55
Is this rude or merely VLQ?
VLQ I'd say - I think there's not enough evidence to say rude
@treyBake it's a derogatory reference to the IT crowd; but yea, there're no swearwords or other rude things, and OP seems to have used that idea.
@Adriaan I mean, I was hearing it way before the IT crowd haha, just seems to be the go-to solution in IT (or maybe I've not worked for enough big companies haha)
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica Wait, 9 fans? I see 3 120mm and a 140mm in your pic. You put some in the bottom shroud?
@Das_Geek Yeah. 1 120 in the rear, 3 top, 3 front, 2 bottom.
top and back blow out and everything else is in
16:02
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica Wait, you replaced your AIO fans?
Yeah. The H150i doesn't come with RGB fans. Just the block is RGB
@Adriaan It maybe becomes rude when said thrice?
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica Huh, weird. Okay, good to know
Yeah. You buy a RGB AIO and it has non RGB fans :(
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica Wew boy buying MLs like that would cost 160
16:05
@Vega it took a while for me to realise what you mean; R/A and modflags on their way
IIRC I spent like $300 USD on the 9 RGB LL fans
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica nice. I have stock fans in my R5 (well, one replacement 140mm I think) on the back and side and two in the front, then I have the top two grill plates removed for air flow
Plus the fans on my GPU and the one on my CPU
@Adriaan Haha, sorry, should have been more explicit :)
Oh yeah, the GPU has 3 fans as well ;)
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica Wow, that's....a lot more. And you're in Chicago area, too?
The Microcenter on Ogden has 2-packs of 120 MLs for $40
Oh nevermind
They aren't the pro version....no RGB
16:08
Aha. That makes sense
Guess my case will be dim after all lol
16:32
Was there a change that implemented totally-random ordering on answers? I'm not able to find any posting of it on MSO, but I'm seeing that random ordering on questions currently
@Das_Geek Did you change the view to active or oldest?
@NathanOliver-ReinstateMonica Ah, silly me. Must have misclicked somehow. Thanks
Morning all /o
16:46
Morning o]
Heh ... love the local variations ;D @Das_Geek @double-beep
@Dharman liking the pp!
@treyBake Who's peepee?
16:53
@double-beep When would one ever need that many diacritics on an omega?
@Dharman xD
@dbc go for the "unclear" close reason I believe for non-English :) as it might not necessarily be off-topic, but it is unclear as to what they're asking
you mean, "needs clarity"
haha I keep doing that haha
dbc
dbc
@treyBake Both Needs more details or clarity and I'm voting to close this question because it is not English. are OK reasons to close non-English questions, see meta.stackoverflow.com/a/297680/3744182. With the recent description changes I sometimes forget which standard close reason to use, so I went with the allowed custom reason.
@dbc ahh didn't know that the custom thingy was a standard! :D I should really peruse meta more haha
@treyBake Check out also this, it was yesterday
@Das_Geek I'm not double-beep, but a circumflex and a iota subscript aren't that uncommon on an omega ... ;)
Thanks @Vega for dragging my incompetence into the light again ;}
@Vega ahh ty, though, to me, there's a sentence that kinda covers it: "As it's currently written, it’s hard to tell exactly what you're asking." but, tbh, I think I just prefer the lazier less typing approach haha
@tink In math and physics maybe, but being that Greek is beep's natural language, I was curious about where it'd be used when speaking/writing
heh ...
17:16
@treyBake Saving typing is what autocomments/auto custom close reasons are for.
@Makyen forever adding tools to my belt :p
17:34
@treyBake See also comments.socvr.org
18:09
@Adriaan While I agree it's unlikely that the OP will come back to translate, I didn't see the harm in leaving that for the Roomba. Was there a reason it needed to be deleted now? After all, the point of having a 5 day period after closure where an edit puts the question in the reopen queue (i.e. what used to be called "on-hold") is to provide for the opportunity for the question to be edited into shape.
18:41
@Machavity Could you help me change the target Q on this duplicate, please? stackoverflow.com/q/36265471/1839439
Thanks
18:57
@Makyen to tell the OP, and specifically the person who answered, that it is not OK to ask/answer non-English content. Now it's still fresh in their memory, whereas when you leave this to roomba, tehy'll just ask/answer again in non-English
@Adriaan Given users aren't notified about posts being deleted, and once posts are deleted, they are significantly harder for OPs to find, I don't see deleting it now as sending much of a signal. More effective at sending a message would be a comment on the post. The user gets a notification of the comment in their inbox. If they haven't picked up the inbox notification within a period of time, they haven't disabled it, then they get sent an email. Deleting it just makes it quietly go away.
@treyBake Please note that, in the vast majority of cases, no comment is required. I'm not a big fan of auto-comment scripts, because they just end up creating more noise. If you're casting a vote to close, you should not leave a canned comment---the closure will already result in a canned notice. Only leave a comment if you're going to take the time to type up tailored advice that is specific to the post.
Canned comments are sometimes useful, like in cases where you're rolling back vandalism and asking the user not to do so in the future. But please think very carefully before you start posting automatic canned comments.
19:12
@CodyGray What about on NAAs?
FWIW, I always close foreign-language questions using a custom reason, which will create an explanatory comment. "Unclear what you're asking" does fit the bill, but isn't nearly clear enough, especially not anymore after it's been reworded. Note that the auto-comments script will allow you to insert custom close reasons, which is nice for this.
@Dharman Generally, no. In 99% of cases where you're flagging something as NAA, it's patently obvious why it fails to answer the question. And remember that deleted answers get a system-inserted link to stackoverflow.com/help/deleted-answers, which is good enough.
Leaving the comment just means that, in the event that a post gets fixed, there's an obsolete comment hanging around.
I'd follow the same advice, and only post a comment on NAA if you are tailoring it to the actual answer, and giving specific advice on how it can be improved.
Why do we have such option then in the LQP?
You can also post a comment on NAA that you think are borderline, where you're choosing not to flag and simply hoping to motivate the author to make an edit.
@Dharman Because...reasons...mostly wrong ones.
From my experience in SOBotics I arrived at a completely opposite conclusion. The canned comments often are useful. Sometimes OP does not realize that they broke some rules and posting a comment makes them realize that this should not be an answer and they delete it themselves without the queue or mods intervening
Sometimes they even reply and ask for extra information or what is even better the canned comments make them edit the answer into a proper post and I can retract my flag.
@Dharman This may be an example of the cases I referred to in a previous message as "borderline".
But that's also something that makes me uncomfortable about it. These canned comments basically empower a single person to make what appears to be an authoritative statement, and quite often in /review, single persons are wrong. I would hate to have a wrong reviewer's decision to leave a comment effectively bully someone into deleting a valid answer.
I would much prefer that a reviewer silently raise a flag, and then either allow a consensus to be reached or a mod to agree. The problem will then get resolved with a minimum amount of fuss.
@HovercraftFullOfEels For questions like that, where you're voting to close as "unclear", it is highly recommended to leave a comment explaining exactly what is unclear. It is rather unlikely that the asker is going to understand why their question is unclear.
@CodyGray I would temper your feelings of discomfort by assuring you that, at least through Natty and the SOBotics channel, reviewers rarely act alone; disputed posts are talked about and a consensus reached. These disputes are of course fairly rare, because as you stated posts which are caught by these filters are generally glaringly terrible.
I would also note that these autocomments contain links to established Meta or official FAQ pages, which can help guide a user to correct their post before being downvoted. While in many cases it ends up as useless noise and the post gets removed, I would submit that this noise is worth it for the times it proves helpful. Especially because they are only comments, and can be removed without a fuss.
@Das_Geek That...isn't reassuring at all. Most reviewers who access the review queues have nothing to do with SOBotics.
If we can't trust reviewers to do the right thing I think auto comments are the lest of our problems. If they are being sheeple they aren't what we want reviewing.
@CodyGray Hm, maybe I didn't clarify properly. I was referring to the case raised by Dharman, mentioning the use of autocomments when going through the SOBotics queue. My point was to say that at least these comments weren't from some random user on a soapbox, but instead from a carefully-scrutinized list of feedback. Similar in nature to the /review queues.
19:39
@Das_Geek I'm kinda with Cody. Reviewers might bring extra eyes but that doesn't mean they will always get it right
I don't really know what to say to that. I must be misunderstanding something. There are auto comments in the review queues that reviewers can choose to insert. Given how often reviewers make the wrong decision, there is little reassurance to be found. I don't know how any of that interacts with SOBotics. If that's a separate channel outside of /review, then it doesn't really apply to this discussion.
@Machavity That queue is a completely different story. These reviews are very often conflicting and wrong stuff gets approved. LQP queue is generally handled better. I started randomly auditing the reviews and most of them I agree with.
@CodyGray My apologies, it appears I was misunderstanding the conversation. I had thought the topic had temporarily shifted to discussing the usefulness of autocomments from a particular source rather than in general
@Machavity I'm with Dharman on that one. From what I've seen, as I cannot access that queue directly and can only look at the contested edits detected by the bots, it's much easier to get away with robo-reviewing edits than it would be for other types of post.
That being said, I agree with your point. Especially considering the incentives that exist for completing review tasks.
I'm definitely opposed to auto-comments in general.
You might be able to make the argument that the typical member of SOBotics is (A) more diligent, (B) more dedicated, (C) more familiar with our guidelines/expectations/standards, but I still don't think auto-comments are a good idea.
The thing about auto comments is, if they were such a good idea, they could be automatically generated by the system.
Which would mean that nobody would have to do any work, and you wouldn't have the problem of retaliation.
19:51
@CodyGray I would say that they could be. The problem is detecting the type of post that should be
Auto-comments also bring more information to the /review. Consider this NAA Without any comments it is not clear why would anyone flag it, but If I said in the comments that this is supposed to be a comment under another answer then the reviewers know what to look for. I guess this falls under the borderline cases mentioned by Cody
Not borderline to me.
Falls clearly under one of the bullets here, which shows up as a link, now that I've deleted it in response to a NAA flag.
I think the confusion is that there are multiple sets of "autocomments". There are some canned comments which the LQP review queue strongly implies users should select to leave on the post they are reviewing. The primary thing I find helpful about those comments is that they have a "From Review", which can be used when viewing the post to go directly to the review. Other than that, I find these comments to mostly not be helpful.
The main thing that I've seen called "autocomments" are comments people place on posts through the use of tools which give them a set of comments to use. The most common tool is autoreviewcomments. Such comments can be good or bad, depending on the comment and the post the user places it on. As always, each individual is responsible for the comments they make, regardless of if tools helped them do so.
Personally, I've had many instances where an autocomment I've placed has resulted in the post being edited by the OP to the point where it's good quality. There have been many times when I've been thanked by the OP for providing them with the information in the comment.
But, again, it's primarily about the actual comment, how it's used, and the circumstances of the individual post. It's certainly true that people do abuse autocomments. There are a significant number of them where the person who wrote them has put no care into it, at all. Some are even unfriendly/unkind.
Overall, IMO, it's not about the tool, it's about how it's used.
Of course. I said as much in what started this conversation. And, like Makyen, when I said "autocomments", I was thinking of both the ones that can be automatically generated "From Review", and the ones that can be inserted via the use of a userscript. In the vast majority of cases, these are noise. But they can be used strategically, so I'm not trying to abolish the tool.
@CodyGray Without a comment, that now-deleted post could have been misconstrued as trying to say "Try this command. It worked for me". While not super borderline, I do agree with Dharman that there are cases where a comment is useful. That being said, the same argument could be made that it's less than useful, in the case that the initial reviewer was wrong
19:57
Correct. The harm of being wrong undoes any potential good done by the comment.
As a reviewer, I don't need you to do my reviewing for me. I can look at that answer and judge the problem with it from 1 km away.
To confirm, I glance at the other surrounding answers. Boom, guilty. Delete.
While I agree that you don't, I would be hesitant to apply that statement to all users who venture into /review
@Das_Geek Which is why I also don't want them leaving comments....
@CodyGray In this case I'm talking about a false negative, where the user doesn't do their due diligence and hits "Looks OK".
And I do genuinely hate that I need to click into the question, away from the queue, to look at the other answers
I'm a little sad to see Jon answering that Q.
How dare you delete a questioned answered by Jon Skeet
:D
20:04
It is what it is.
He doesn't need the rep ;)
@Das_Geek The Stack Overflow Unofficial Patch (SOUP) will help solve that for you.
Should this question be closed? stackoverflow.com/q/12666799/1839439
@Dharman Why would it need to be closed?
@Makyen I figured there was a userscipt for it; good to know it covers a bunch of other things, as well. Kinda like the Unofficial patches for Elder Scrolls games :D Thanks for the link
20:09
Seems very broad and looking for recommendations. It just got another NATO
@Das_Geek np. I'm happy to help.
I’m not a domain expert, but it seems more nuanced than “what’s your favorite editor?”
I agree. It's not explicitly asking for recommendations; it just happens to be that the answer is a vim plugin or similar. I would say 50% of the Vim answers I write include some link to a plugin; that's just how Vim be.
@Dharman Looking again, I’m thinking it is not programming related...
20:46
@CodyGray uh, historical lock doesn't show who closed the question? Why?
@Dharman it's part of the new UI
and it's annoying
doubly annoying if there's not been any other revisions and thus you have to resort to manually editing the URL in your browser window to even get to that information
same for when a question is mjolnired, and if the list of dupe targets is changed.
How can I update the question to be on-topic if it has a historical lock? The link just leads me to a very dubious error page.
@Dharman Mod flag, ask for unlock so you can edit or post on meta
Ahh well. Off to Meta to raise another complaint...
Not the point. It should stay locked, but why is the banner telling me to edit it?
Because there are 2 different banners. One for closed that says edit to make better, and one for locked that says it's locked. Apparently the devs didn't think there were any closed locked questions where this would lead to issues ;)
20:53
@Dharman I am in the process of posting an answer on the MSE thread re: the conflict in off-topic banners and locked banners existing on the same question.
Also, to see the existing "under review" request for why mods aren't shown on the new banner, see this answer: meta.stackexchange.com/a/339826/253521
@TylerH Will you mentioned this problem? or should I post another answer?
I just mentioned it
ok thanks
21:08
I personally like not showing the user who voted to close or lock in the banner. It isn’t relevant, and just leads to retaliatory behavior. For transparency, it’s important that it be publicly available information, but it is. We all know how to find it if we need it.
But I saw and +1’ed Tyler’s bug report. There are a lot of issues with the post notices still. They really should have shown them to mods as a smoke test first.
Mods, Meta, anyone really
Haha, yeah. I mean, there was an A/B test, but without having enough trusted users in the “A” group, you don’t get good feedback.
@CodyGray Does that mean they only got a B?
Bad pun monday
I'm just trying to carry on gunr's mantle while he's away :)
21:22
Why can’t we have bad pun everyday?
7
Tuesday ...
@tink Do you live in the future already?
Now that there is less traffic in this room, could we have another tag e.g. and let some posts without recent activity in? If we dedicate a new tag for it, only people who have some spare votes at the end of UTC day can go focus on these requests.
What would be the advantage of that, over spending your remaining close votes in the close vote review queue?
@CodyGray we're capped at 40 votes in the queue
we have 10 more to spend here even after capping there
21:37
@Dharman For now lets refrain. There is still the queue that can be worked through. Once we start scraping the bottom of the barrel we can reconsider.
@Dharman even if we move to relax the restrictions we likely wouldn't need some new chat tag like or even require a reason... we'd just shift the FAQ to allow for some wider range of time
though it's not explicit right now
@TylerH Ah, so you’d just need to go look at 20 or so new questions.
Well, that'd kind of defeat the point of the room...
@Dharman New Zealand is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.
and who says time travel is impossible?
21:43
@TylerH Honestly, if things were working as they should, they should defeat the point of this room. The close vote review queue should be solving this problem. This room could be recast into something that provides nothing more than advice from fellow quality-minded users and the occasional mod.
The fact that we need this room at all is an unfortunate consequence of (a) huge volumes and (b) ineffective tooling.
@Dharman I never said 'impossible'; I said 'unnatural'. You could learn this power, but not from a Jedi.
Implying, of course, that all New Zealanders are Sith Lords
@Dharman - something like that. I'm in NZ =}
And @Das_Geek beat me to my explanation ... do'h
22:03
@Dharman If you're just looking for questions to close-vote, then there are lots of ways to find them. Even if you're out of CV-reviews, you can still work on the CV review queue. You can look at the review history and pick questions which you haven't VtC. This would help clear the queue. There are as many questions as you'd ever want in the history there.
There are also lots of searches that result in a high percentage of older, off-topic questions. Some searches I've used are "looking for" in combination with things like API, book, library,
module, plugin, open source, etc., etc. There are many other searches with other search terms which result in a high percentage of questions which are easy to see should be closed.
NOTE: Not all of the questions in the above searches, or any search, should actually be closed. Good searches for this purpose just have a high percentage of questions which should be closed, but not all. You still need to use judgement wrt. voting to close.
I've even done searches for various non-English words to find old non-English questions which were never closed. There are, unfortunately, a surprising number non-English questions still around, some from many years ago.
 
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