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user10957435
1:39 AM
Can someone go approve the pending edit for this question? stackoverflow.com/q/58442083/10957435 Didn't think to hit "improve" instead of "approve" so it took effect immediately. Someone possibly leaked their API key and some other things.
 
user10957435
I know there is a way to force an edit when there is a pending one, but don't remember it off the top of my head.
 
user10957435
Looking at this, the URL is "example.om", so it might be okay actually. But still.
 
Is there any user script such that when you flag a comment it'll wait and retry automatically instead of throwing an error "you may flag a comment every 5 seconds"?
 
@user202729 There may be. However, I don't know of one. I've been tempted to make one.
@Chipster Just FYI: we don't do approve-pls or reject-pls requests. We do, however, do review-pls requests. If you feel something should be redacted, then you should custom mod-flag asking for redaction. Editing whatever it is out is, however, a good step to also take.
OTOH, I do accept that this was a special case.
 
user10957435
@Makyen Yes. Sorry. Forgot about that. I just can't edit it myself now and forgot how to force an edit anyway. I remember someone here telling me how to do that before, but for I'm forgetting how.
 
user10957435
1:50 AM
@Makyen I'll try to remember that next time. If I can remember not to approve posts like that, but improve them instead, I should be fine :)
 
user10957435
@Makyen That's it. Thanks. It is favorited, so now that won't happen again. Again, sorry about that.
 
(I don't get why must the pop up be reloaded every time. Only the "x flags remaining today" is changing, and that can be counted in JavaScript.)
 
@Chipster np. Don't worry about it.
 
user10957435
@user202729 What do you mean reloaded?
 
1:57 AM
@Chipster They are talking about flagging multiple comments and hitting the rate limits. It's extra frustrating because the system requires you to reload the flag dialog after telling you that you have to wait a few seconds between flagging. But, loading the flag dialog has a separate rate limit, which you commonly hit if your immediate action is to reload the flag dialog.
 
user10957435
@Makyen Oh, I see. It forces you to reload the dialog after hitting the limit. Got you. I haven't really hit the flag limit in a long time.
 
@Chipster The required delays are short enough such that a reasonable UI would be to just wait until the rate limit has expired. You could popup a notice of the delay, but even that isn't really needed, given that the delay is 5s between flags and 3s between opening the flag dialog.
 
Current code for loading the modal box: 0x0.st/zx5W.js
 
@user202729 Yes, but it doesn't really matter how the popup is created, other than it makes an AJAX request to get the info/receive the error saying wait. The way to do it is to intercept the call to XMLHttpRequest, or at the jQuery level at $.ajax(). If you get a response that a wait is required, then just don't trigger the load event, call the success callback or resolve the jQuery Deferred.
When you see such a response, then just wait, retry, and call the callback/trigger the event handler with the response from the delayed request.
 
2:14 AM
I think you can just override the StackExchange.helpers.loadModal function?
 
@user202729 I expect that you could, but I'd need to verify that's really what's being called. (I expect it is, but I'd want to test, which wouldn't take all that long.) However, I've already got code for both $.ajax and XMLHttpRequest, so I'd choose to adapt one or the other of those.
 
@Makyen Ok.
 
2:36 AM
@user202729 Note also that the StackExchange object is filled from multiple separate files, which aren't loaded immediately. You will need to test first for the existence of StackExchange, then for the Object and Function within that structure in which you are interested. Once StackExchange exists, you'll probably want to make use of StackExchange.ready(callback) prior to testing for the existence of the Function you're interested in.
Don't forget that if you're using a userscript that all of the interception/overriding has to be done in the page context. That's more of an issue for Greasemonkey, which doesn't actually put the userscript in the page context when you use // @grant none
 
Obviously you need @grant unsafeWindow...
the same problem happens with jQuery.
(Are you making that user script?)
 
Self-answer plugging owner's site without disclosure. Domain not previously seen by Smokey. I'm not sure whether to flag NAA or spam. Thoughts?
 
@user202729 No, you don't need that. There are other ways, IMO better/safer ways, to get access to, or run in, the page context.
@user202729 I've considered doing so, but I have not yet done so.
@user202729 My go-to method is the executeInPage function which is in my answer here
 
user10957435
2:52 AM
@StephenKennedy I think it could be well hidden spam. Not entirely sure, though. Didn't check it out well enough.
 
Makyen's gone tp
 
@StephenKennedy If you're going with it being spam, then I suggest a custom flag to explain why it's spam not just NAA. It is spam. Period, IMO. Technically, it has undisclosed affiliation, which is defined as spam. However, this is a question and self answer which was written entirely to be able to have an answer that links to the user's blog. I don't really see how not to consider it spam/promotion.
 
@Makyen OK, thanks. Have you raised a custom flag? (one is of course enough)
 
@StephenKennedy Writing it now.
 
3:04 AM
@StephenKennedy OK. Done. One flag, but I assert that the answer is spam and the question a spam seed.
 
@Makyen Agreed, thanks. And now Smokey has reported the question :)
 
@StephenKennedy Yeah, I manually reported it in CHQ, just before it was deleted by a moderator. :-)
 
Next week - "THE moderator" ;)
2
 
3:19 AM
Next month, what moderator?
 
sigh ... so true.
@SamuelLiew Are you also thinking about resigning?
 
not at the moment. I love the community too much and I also enjoy making userscripts
 
@SamuelLiew That's good to hear (all three things :-) ).
 
3:40 AM
@SamuelLiew You made a userscript to always add "Free Monica" to all your posts? What? :P
 
hah I don't need to add to the noise to be heard
 
 
2 hours later…
5:28 AM
@Machavity lol
@JohnDvorak Nope, it is what the technique at Reddit is called (I don't know who named it fuzzing) where they intentionally hide the true score of most posts by adding fake votes to it to counteract natural forces (or combat manipulation from fake accounts).
SO's implementation is a bit different in that they don't add fake votes, they just prevent votes from being shown below a certain threshold, but it's still fuzzing IMO
@Dharman I'm sure we will be free to discuss the results once the test is over. We always have been able to do so in the past about site tests.
@Makyen Personally, I think the idea of vote fuzzing is a good one, but think they got the implementation backward--they should show fuzzy scores to the OP/people below 1k reputation, not everyone.
Just like I think they should hide the names of the people who CV'd a post for people below 3K reputation rather than what was suggested (the opposite) on that blog post a while back
 
5:54 AM
 
6:11 AM
@Shree Yes, looks like it to me.
But, now deleted.
 
Yep.
 
ugh, declined NAA instead of letting the community handle it correctly
 
6:36 AM
@TylerH I disagree with that. Perhaps it would be OK to fuzz scores for OPs, but even then it's giving the OP bad information. Maybe if SO limited it to something lower, like -3, for OPs, but OPs should be informed that people think their post has problems, and downvotes are the primary indicator that other people think something's wrong with a post.
As to fuzzing scores for anyone else, that gives other people bad information and significantly reduces the actual value of the information on Stack Overflow. People should know that an answer's score is at whatever score it really is (e.g. -10, or more) otherwise you're making it much more likely that people are going to try using code that's in truly bad answers. At minimum, that's going to cost people time. That time costs money and makes people frustrated with the service SO is providing.
Overall, it lowers the actual value of the information which Stack Overflow is providing. If the person doesn't have the rep to see that an answer is at a very negative score and using the code on the answer costs them lots of time, or the business lots of money, why would any such person/business ever trust the information on Stack Overflow again, particularly once they found out that Stack Overflow lied about the usefulness of negatively scored posts?
I believe it also, potentially, opens SO up to civil liability. I believe there are jurisdictions where the liability for intentionally providing false information can't be waved, so any release of liability in the TOS is worthless in those jurisdictions. I could certainly see some lawyers putting together a class action lawsuit, in jurisdictions which don't permit waving the right to class action suits.
Of course, IANAL, but giving false information (inflated scores) in order to get something of value (your eyeballs on ads) is fraud in most jurisdictions, particularly when the information is intentionally false. In this situation, the fuzzing of post scores is falsely representing the value of what they are offering (answers to questions/solutions to problems). Fuzzing scores attempts to increase the perceived value of answers, but only really succeeds at lowering the actual value of the site.
 
@Makyen I agree they should be informed that their post has problems, and I'd be fine with something lower like -2 or maybe even -3. I'm just saying if they're going to fuzz votes only, they should restrict it to people who already can't see full info about a post's score, not everyone
the key concern is to not fuzz votes for high rep users who do moderation activities
the rest is just details
but beyond -3, there's literally no point to having a post's (visible, at least) score be lower as it doesn't affect the system at all. Of course downvotes should always reduce the OP's reputation, but it makes no difference to the system if a post is at -3 or -10.
if someone upvotes a post that's got 4 downvotes (and no upvotes), it should stay at -3 of course and show the message (assuming they have under 1k rep) 'don't worry, your upvote is recorded and OP received n reputation; this post just had more downvotes than what we cap the question score at, so the ultimate score isn't reflected for you' or something along those lines
@Makyen this sounds ridiculous and I don't think it's reality anywhere, at least certainly not in the US. It is completely OK for a company with a website to control how artificial support for or against a post on that website is maintained and implemented
in something as direct as a vote
 
@TylerH I agree that they shouldn't be fuzzed for high rep users, but I also thing they shouldn't be fuzzed for any other user, with maybe the exception of the OP. I'd much rather see SO try to educate users not to take downvotes personally.
 
otherwise Reddit would not be able to do its vote fuzzing for years as it has done
@Makyen I think we lost that battle a long time ago. The solution to it, at least, is not related to votes; a more systemic change to both on-boarding and advertising of SO's brand is needed for that to change
 
@TylerH Reddit is a social network. It's not representing itself as a repository of questions and answers. There's a major difference there.
SO represents itself as a place where people can find answers. That's the major thing they're providing in exchange for people visiting the site. If they want to start representing themselves as entertainment, or a social network, then fuzzing with the scores becomes less of an issue.
 
6:56 AM
@Makyen sure SO bills itself as a repo of Qs and As, but that doesn't change any legal liability
it's still just the thoughts and opinions of participants
also the scores of a given piece of content are irrelevant with regard to ad serving
there's no code AFAIK that says "show only PHP ads on negatively scored question pages"
that would probably cross some legal lines
(unless of course they admitted to it in their contract with the company giving them the PHP ads)
Also, I have to point out that 'giving false information to viewers' is clearly not illegal as Fox News is allowed to exist :-)
 
I expect that's something that can be/might be litigated. SO represents that the posts are evaluated by the community. Fuzzing scores invalidates that. I'm not implying that the ads they show are different. I'm saying that by fuzzing the scores they are effectively changing the represented "value" of each affected answer/question. Overall, that affects the perceived value of viewing the site, potentially resulting in people viewing more pages, or viewing a page longer in order to read/review
answers they otherwise would have just ignored. That can translate to actual additional views (i.e. more money for SO).
Meanwhile, they are representing some truly bad answers, potentially harmful answers, as having a zero score, or only a sightly negatively score. Doing so wastes people's time, because some people will try some of those answers where they wouldn't have if the real score was displayed. Even more people will spend time reading the answers.
[Hmmm.. I wonder what caused that failure to send the first message. Unfortunately, the console was cleared, so I don't know what error there was, if there was one.]
@TylerH I agree that it would take more effort than just fuzzing scores. However, there is a reasonable amount which they could do when a low rep user gets downvotes to make the impact less emotionally negative. However, a lot of that is sociological.
 
 
2 hours later…
9:27 AM
@RO's - can I request privileges for Smokey please? :)
 
10:06 AM
/me must remember to not annoy the flower as can be kicked now... :p
 
@JonClements Oh no, what happened to your blue font? 😲
 
@PraveenKumarPurushothaman I stepped down as mod
 
@JonClements But why? You're one of the best mods.
I just saw your meta post and the first top comment was something that I wanted to tell, but yea.
 
@PraveenKumarPurushothaman nice of you to say so... and thanks... here's not the place to discuss it though - there's more important stuff happening
 
@JonClements Yes! Indeed... Alright... 😊
 
10:27 AM
Why is there so many PHP question here now?
 
because 98% of PHP users here can't use a manual :'(
 
@treyBake you mean there actually is one!? ducks and runs
 
@JonClements haha xD There is! Buy one now and get w3schools instead!
I swear that website generates too many questions on SO xD
 
@treyBake That is so true. But in fairness there is an abundance of reaaaaaaaallllly bad PHP tutorials on the web. Some are 10x worse than w3schools
I believe that if all of them got removed we would have 50% less PHP questions on SO
 
10:45 AM
@Dharman yeah that's true, I'm scared to click onto most sites offering a PHP tutorial.. hopefully one day, these sites die off - but doubt it xD
 
11:22 AM
Is SO working really slow for you guys since yesterday too?
 
can't say it has for me
 
11:46 AM
@JonClements THANKS FOR THE SERVICE!, a more excellent chat moderator will be hard to find, the positive thing is that I know can ping you as much I want :)
 
11:58 AM
@PetterFriberg heh heh... it's been a great 4.5yrs - it had ups and downs - but ultimately, I think and feel, it was worthwhile doing so, and perhaps (arrogantly?) I did enough to enable things to happen... you've always been welcome to ping me if it's something or other, blah blah blah :p That rule was mostly related about things... :)
 
12:11 PM
@AmitJoshi Do we allows CV-pls on posts where you have posted an answer? I think it means you have a stake in it, right?
 
^think is spam tbh
I've flagged
 
o/
 
@treyBake You think this is spam?
 
@NathanOliver prior to edit I thought it was
 
12:26 PM
Aha
 
@Dharman I am not sure but your concern is valid. But the case here is bit different. The original version of question (and problem specified in it) was reproducible. So, I answered it. Then, OP said (question edits and comments now deleted) my assumptions are wrong. He then post newer version of code which does not reproduce the issue at all. Had a long conversation with OP to attempt to reproduce it without success.
If this question gets closed, I will delete my answer. Alternatively, if necessary, I can delete it now anyway.
@Dharman I have now deleted my answer.
 
If your answer was based on incorrect assumptions and you can't reproduce it, then I agree that deleting it makes sense
 
@Dharman As I said above, I deleted it now.
 
Flagged question
Plop folks
 
Plop Kyll
 
12:40 PM
Holy
Jon ='(
 
IKR
 
For frack's sake
 
@AmitJoshi You need to delete your answer before you can request closure. Otherwise you have a stake in the Q&A and we don't allow cv-pls for stakeholders.
@Kyll Sad days :(
 
Wait.....the @Kyll is back. Yaaay. I see you got out of Spearrel Protection Program. That disguise you had before was well done
 
@Nkosi Thanks! There were too many meetings
 
12:50 PM
Is my comment needed too?
 
I'd say we are saying the same thing
 
1:15 PM
@NathanOliver Understood. Will take care next time.
 
Thanks
 
1:42 PM
@Nkosi He was going through a phase where he imagined himself to be a bald Frenchman. We're glad he's back to his spear-laden ways
4
 
@Machavity seems legit
lol
 
1:58 PM
@Machavity a bald handsome Frenchman
@treyBake Could be edited to be on-topic, no?
If you edit it to "How can I generate such a unique key", the question is clear and answerable
 
@Kyll yes and no: "does any one know a symfony bundle or package that generate a unique number like that to be saved on the giftcard table" comes from the question - which is a direct request
however, if they were to edit to say, here's what I did etc. then yeah could be on-topic (in my eyes - I could be wrong, many times have I been haha)
 
What I mean is, you can try to provide guidance in comments. "Asking for libraries or tools is off-topic, why don't you [edit] your question to give us a concrete problem, possibly with a [mcve] if you tried anything?"
Note that the MCVE is not mandatory here imho
 
Ah with ya, and I could for sure, though as is not newcomer you'd think (and hope!) they know what makes a question on-topic for SO, at what rep point do we stop guidance (if that makes sense)?
 
Honestly I saw 8k users asking for libraries, so I'm not even sure we should ever stop >_>
I do sometimes slip in a "at your level of rep, you should have read and understood the [help/on-topic]." sometimes but it's pretty passive-agressive.
 
2:05 PM
Damn, I guess it's fine but yeah, strive to help all ^.^ ty
 
@treyBake Anyway, it always warms my furry heart when I see people providing guidance and help to misled folks
Thanks for the comment =)
 
@Kyll Hey, that's what it's all about :p and np, hopefully is ok :)
 
ty
 
I probably shouldn't have gone there either
 
2:12 PM
:)
 
I leave the room for 5 minutes... now I know how rene feels ;)
 
Weird that we'd have any taboo here.
 
haha read that as "tattoo here" - matching SO tats anyone? xD
 
ooooh yeah
 
I'm waiting for RGB tattoos
 
2:22 PM
my search for SO tat's led me to this - typical frontend developer working on the backend
 
I was thinking about tattooing flowers on my leg, maybe I could put rene in there too...
 
I can see the conversation right now: Artist: You mean you actually want it to look blurry??? Kyll: Yeah. Artist: No way. I'm not ruining my reputation giving you a blurry tattoo. Kyll: <chucks spear and runs away>
6
 
lol
 
3:00 PM
leaves
 
levies
 
surely, you meant leafs
 
@Machavity Slightly spammy answer on this one as well
 
levis
 
3:29 PM
^my bad flagged wrong reason facepalm
 
@treyBake As long as it was a red flag it doesn't really matter. Both do the same thing.
 
@NathanOliver ah ok - so is accumulative flag votes vs vote count on specific reason?
 
For red flags yes. 6 in any combination will nuke the post.
 
Ahh, good to know, ty :)
 
Is this question unclear or is it just me? stackoverflow.com/q/58450526/1839439
 
I'd say so, but not sure if that's down to my lack of terminology :S I'd be happy with Too Broad for sure though
 
 
1 hour later…
5:13 PM
@JL2210 If you want the question closed, why have you not voted to close it?
 
@klutt I forgot. Sometimes I do that. Voted to close it now.
 
6:19 PM
 
user10957435
7:11 PM
@Dharman I voted to close as unclear. While the 500 response code is very likely talking about an http code of some kind (as it's tagged "web"), but beyond that I don't know what it's talking about. But that's just me.
 
@klutt Besides we only get 50 votes each day, so sometimes we run out of the votes before we close everything
 
7:31 PM
@Machavity shouldn’t that be a flag-pls request?
 
haven't we been through this already?
 
@EJoshuaS Either works with the cleanup script
 
Jun 3 at 18:56, by Makyen
@RobertColumbia Using either or just should be fine. Using just doesn't tell us what you think it should be flagged as.
I think this comes up quite often here: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/47516286#47516286
Maybe it should be clarified somewhere once and for good?
 
We all forget the rules from time to time, well except for Pete. We don't talk about Pete after that two-box incident
 
7:37 PM
Yeah, but it doesn't say whether you should use both of them or not
 
user10957435
Side note: What determines what close reason gets displayed to the OP?
 
Most votes or first vote
 
@Chipster Majority vote. Lacking that, the first close vote reason
 
user10957435
@Dharman Weird, because I was vote 4, I think I was the first one to use that reason, yet my reason got displayed, I think.
 
Yeah, it suprised me too, cause I cast the 5th/2nd vote
 
user10957435
7:41 PM
Did you also vote no mcve? Because that would be 1-2-2, I think.
 
yes
Maybe the rules are different if the first vote cast was in minority
maybe then the last vote wins?
Ask on Meta... :)
 
in this case I would assume it is the first vote from groups that tie
 
but it was 4th and 5th vote
 
user10957435
@NathanOliver That wouldn't makes sense though. As Dharman said, it was 4th and 5th.
 
Maybe they already changed the logic?
 
user10957435
7:46 PM
I haven't had good luck asking questions here, only answering, even on meta, but I'll consider it.
 
Okay: In the case of a tie, it chooses the most recent vote that was one of those choices to break the tie.
 
user10957435
Maybe.

It's not a loss or anything, as I think that or maybe unclear were the best reasons anyway to show to the OP. I'm just curious how the system works I guess.
 
user10957435
@NathanOliver Ah ha. That would make sense.
 
Just goes to show you, if you have a question, ask google. Chances are it's been asked and answered already ;)
 
@Chipster It randomly picks a vote to show a reason ;)
 
user10957435
7:49 PM
I heard there was talk of of changing it to show all the reasons, that way the OP knew all the things wrong with their question ahead of time, and didn't get surprised when and if their question got re-closed.
 
ROFL
 
user10957435
@NathanOliver Yeah, I'm learning that slowly but surely.
 
user10957435
@Machavity lol
 
@Chipster That is what I have proposed here. It makes a lot more sense if there is only going to be 3 votes.
 
I am not so sure about "first" I seem to remember having read "last" somewhere. That would fit the observation.
 
7:52 PM
"And it’s even more problematic because of how we determine the displayed reason: we pick the oldest vote"
 
user10957435
@NathanOliver Lol, that would be where I heard it. It makes a lot of sense.
 
user10957435
"Any sub-reason which gets at least 2 votes is always shown regardless of which one is chosen as "final"" That's also probably why the no mcve was shown. It's a sub-reason.
 
Does anyone know a good dup target for HTTP basic authentication to close this q? stackoverflow.com/questions/58445981/…
 
user10957435
@Dharman I'm afraid that's not my area of expertise.
 
user10957435
9:01 PM
As a general rule, should "explain x piece of code" questions be left open?
 
@Chipster It depends on the question. Most of the time it is low quality question and should be closed, but the words in itself are not a reason to close. We do not have a list of phrases which qualify a question to be closed.
 
@Chipster At least in the C++ tag that often get closed as unclear due to us not knowing what about the code they don't understand. If it is clear, and not too broad, then they are left opened and answered.
 
user10957435
@Dharman Well yes, certain words don't qualify for closure in themselves. I was just asking for a rule of thumb whether these types of questions bring useful answers.
 
user10957435
@NathanOliver Got you. So it depends.
 
@Chipster Yep. For instance, this is a good one.
 
user10957435
9:07 PM
@NathanOliver Thanks for the example. That helped.
 
user10957435
Just figured out I could filter the queue. Boy, I love it so much!
 
:)
I remember those days. seems like so long ago now
 
user10957435
@NathanOliver The days of discovering everything for the first time?
 
Being new to the CVQ
 
user10957435
9:21 PM
Ah. It's definitely a trip.
 
9:36 PM
I had a weird issue the other day: I VTC a question as a dupe, then the target was deleted for reasons of moderation. Apparently my vote was simply retracted by the system because when the question was closed I wasn’t listed as one of the close voters.
 
That makes sense.
 
10:03 PM
Evening all! o/
@tripleee If you are around, I just declined a NAA flag of yours I meant to mark helpful without deleting. Sorry. :|
Mistakes were made.
 
\o grabs pitchfork
 
Hides in the woods.
 
I can't see the wood for the trees :(
 
Phew.
 
o/
 
 
1 hour later…

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