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9:00 PM
We can solve this whole problem by making an algorithms.stackexchange site and moving all the algo questions there
 
A programming questions is a programming question because it needs a programmer to be answered. If your question doesn't need a programmer, then it isn't a programming question.
 
@Lankymart This question for example would be much better without the stackoverflow.com/questions/41023179/…
 
user4639281
@TylerH That would be a large portion of the questions
 
@TinyGiant huh, no? Programming questions don't need to be moved there
 
user4639281
@Braiam Again, I don't see how that would apply to the question in question if a language tag were applied
 
9:01 PM
@TinyGiant it would be all questions, hopefully
 
@Lankymart the jrxml file brings nothing to the question and as far as I'm concern it's one of the most interesting questions this last year in jasper-reports
Hence even without any code it would have been a really good question and maybe even better
 
there are over 13.2 million questions on SO that are not about algorithms, I think it would do fine without the 70k or so algo questions :-)
 
@TinyGiant Is "What is the sum of 2 and 3?" a programming question?
 
@Braiam no
it's a math question
 
^ I rest my case
 
9:03 PM
> What is the sum of 2 and 3 in C++?
 
@Tunaki VTC - Unclear
 
Why? It's perfectly clear :)
 
No it's not
 
It's unclear why you didn't just try it
 
@Tunaki It's 7. Because C will ++ them :P
 
9:04 PM
@Tunaki Boat programming?
 
Does C++ change math? Would the sum of 2 and 3 be different in C++ than it would be outside of C++?
 
Also, what C++ version?
@TylerH Yes, actually
 
How to sum two numbers in C++?
 
See, 2+3 might even depend on the C++ version :p
 
@TylerH #define 2 3
 
9:04 PM
^ programming question
 
@Braiam unclear/too broad
 
@JanDvorak how so
 
How to sum two numbers?
 
@Braiam not too broad, but too localized :-)
 
@Braiam unclear. What kind of numbers, what kind of sum?
 
9:05 PM
^ unclear question on SO/too broad/go to school again elsewhere
 
@JanDvorak That's ill formed IIRC
 
@JanDvorak Surely it defaults 2 and 3 to integers
or w/e programming languages use to count numbers
 
Or I had 2.0 and 3.0 and the result is 5.0000000000000000000000001 :p
 
all but the first and last are programming questions
and withing the scope of SO
barring other important issues
 
@Braiam yes and :35605801 no
 
user4639281
9:07 PM
@Braiam How do I find the sum of 2 and 3 in javascript is a programming question though
 
user4639281
@TylerH And many more, given the fact that lots of questions are about algorithms but the OP doesn't understand what an algorithm is
 
@TinyGiant so, how do you close it?
 
user4639281
@JanDvorak you don't
 
user4639281
Other than duplicate of course
 
Who's up for the experiment?
 
9:09 PM
@TinyGiant var a = Number(2) + Number(3); console.log(a);
 
@TinyGiant because you put it into a programming context
 
user4639281
 
"Algo that does X?" not programming "Pseudo code of this algo that does X?" programming
 
user4639281
@Braiam so how is that any different than the algorithm question if a language tag was added (as I've been saying it needs since my very first comment about it)
 
JavaScript is all its glory
 
9:10 PM
@TinyGiant well, that's better than your example - but I still think it's poorly researched.
 
@TinyGiant I think you are missing my point: that question isn't phrased into a programming context
with or without the language tag
 
user4639281
@Braiam If it had a language tag, it would be
 
@Tunaki Yeah, Haskell would scream at you that you can't concatenate strings because strings aren't numbers.
 
@TinyGiant In my opinion, someone saying "I need an algorithm for this" is asking for us to do their programming for them. Such a question ought to have an attempt at an algorithm and a result and a description of how that result differs from the desired result.
 
user4639281
@Braiam How does having a language tag not make it a programming question?
 
9:11 PM
if it doesn't have any of those things, I'm VTC
 
@TylerH too broad
 
1 min ago, by Braiam
"Algo that does X?" not programming "Pseudo code of this algo that does X?" programming
^ the later doesn't need a language tag
 
user4639281
@TylerH Having an attempt would make it a better question, but it is not required for the question to be on-topic
 
@TinyGiant Disagree
 
@Braiam Now you're just parodying yourself. Feel free to edit "algo to" to "pseudocode to" if it makes you happy. We can imagine them synonyms.
 
Qualification #1 of a question being on-topic should be "you should have attempted this yourself first"
@TinyGiant You're providing an x answer to a y argument
 
user4639281
@TylerH There is no lack of research or effort close reason, that's a downvote reason
 
@TinyGiant There's a custom CV reason for whatever we want, first of all
 
> Qualification #1 of a question being a acceptable question in any site "you should have attempted this yourself first"
 
@TylerH s/attempt/proof of research \/ where are you stuck/
 
9:13 PM
FTFY
 
user4639281
Oh my god if we start closing every question that does not contain code I'm just going to leave and never come back. That's ludicrous
 
@SmokeDetector Is this spam or naa?
 
seems like spam to me... but I have not flagged it yet
 
@NathanOliver I think it's NAA
 
Thats my thought
 
9:14 PM
second of all, if you ask a question to which the answer is a piece of code, you need to show some form of an attempt at getting to the answer yourself. If you are asking a question to which the answer does not have to include a piece of code, you don't.
 
Read it a few times. He's saying "It worked for me on this site"
 
Because IMO "I don't know where to start" is too broad
 
It's down voted so I just delete voted
 
@TinyGiant Let's just start replying to Braiam's CV-PLSes that attempt this with a big fat NO.
 
> we don't want to see "effort" so much as we want context!
@JanDvorak in what world I said that I close solely on the basis of "no code shown"?
 
user4639281
9:15 PM
I personally don't care about effort or context
 
@TinyGiant we do...
that prevents duplicates
and poorly asked questions
 
@TinyGiant I do, at least for the up/down votes
 
user4639281
I see an answerable on-topic programming question I'm going to answer it regardless of effort or context
 
@TinyGiant And your standards are therefore lower/looser than ours, and that's fine. We will just close more questions than you :-)
 
user4639281
I upvote questions that show research effort, are clear and usefull
 
9:16 PM
Now go hang out with Joel while we hang out with Jeff :-P
 
user4639281
I donwnvote questions that show a lack of research effort, are unclear, or not useful
 
I take it there are questions that you downvote and answer, then?
 
@QPaysTaxes This sounds like a fun dance move
 
Lack of research effort is down vote worthy. There is no close reason for it.
 
9:17 PM
@TinyGiant There aren't a lot of questions that are usefull though. Some are just useful.
 
@TinyGiant in which case you just encourage more of them...which lowers the quality overall imo
3
 
Saying a question is downvote worthy but not close worthy is a bit misleading because a downvoted question in many circumstances will be closed/deleted anyway by the Roomba
 
notes to point out Tuna's typos
 
Surely something that is delete-worthy is also implicitly close-worthy?
 
:)
 
9:18 PM
Roomba never closes. And sometimes it only deletes what's closed.
 
It deletes abandoned open questions that are negatively downvoted
 
@JanDvorak But never disappoints...
except when it does
@TylerH negatively downvoted = score 1 or more
:P
 
@JanDvorak Never gonna vote them up. Only gonna nuke them down...
 
"The Community user will automatically delete old abandoned/dead questions in the following circumstances:

If the question is more than 30 days old, and ...

has −1 or lower score
has no answers
is not locked"
 
9:20 PM
@Machavity Then it's going to turn around and ... do it again?
 
@TinyGiant Would you answer a question that you've downvoted or consider downvote-worthy?
 
@JanDvorak Rick Roomba Roll
 
@Braiam ya ya ya, :-P
 
If your Roomba rolls around, it's doing it wrong.
 
Maybe you guys should try to answer this one it is a bit related to the recent discussion in this room.
 
9:22 PM
@TinyGiant I'm still agreeing with you.. some code does not make a question good
 
Are we agreeing with @TinyGiant because he just rage quit or because we mean it?
 
@rene Giving it a try
 
@rene I don't know about you, but I mean it.
 
good
 
user4639281
@TylerH That's false, questions can show a lack of research effort and not be closeable
 
user4639281
9:27 PM
@TylerH I would definitely answer a clear on-topic non-duplicate programming question regardless of whether it shows research effort or not.
 
even if it's too broad? :-D
 
@rene there
 
user4639281
@rene AFAIK I didn't rage quit yet, unless the consensus is that the room is now going to go on crusade to eradicate all questions that don't contain code.
 
That meta question doesn't contain code either :-D
 
@JanDvorak Close and delete it! </torchandpitchfork>
 
9:32 PM
@TinyGiant that is not the end conclusion IMHO and this room should not go on any crusade for that matter, specially not that one.
 
@TinyGiant and yet, it's true, because the community user will delete a question that has been downvoted for lack of research effort even if it has 0 close votes cast on it
 
@Machavity Many have tried - but the opponent's defenses are too strong.
 
and surely a delete-worthy question is implicitly close-worthy
 
user4639281
@TylerH Not if it has received an answer that was upvoted, or multiple answers, so it's false
 
user4639281
There's a difference between abandoned questions and bad questions
 
9:33 PM
@TinyGiant It was my understanding that everyone was talking about how they operate individually, not how we as a room should act, since as a room we just act as individuals per question anyway
 
user4639281
Abandoned questions are deleted because no one cares about them
 
Just because Roomba deletes something doesn't mean that it's worth deleting
 
@JanDvorak Sounds like you should post to meta that Roomba needs fixing
 
Just because someone commented on something a year ago doesn't mean it shouldn't be deleted
 
since you all mention Jeff thinking he wants code and stuff check out this stackoverflow.com/questions/9/…
 
9:34 PM
@TylerH Yes. But you still get called out for blatantly incorrect cv-plses
 
@JanDvorak who is calling people out? They shouldn't be doing that
 
Yes, they should.
 
if you disagree with someone's cv-pls you can ask why and say why you disagree
but 'calling someone out' is not the right approach
except maybe if you are a RO
since they help govern the room as a group and its image
 
FAQ-member-responsible-4
 
@PetterFriberg seriously? that question is ancient - The rules have changed, why use that as an example?
 
9:36 PM
> However, users that are posting cv-pls’es that are blatantly wrong will be told so. The final verdict is on the RO team.
 
@Lankymart since people think that Jeff does not agree with these questions
 
RO team
not 'regular member or visitor'
 
user4639281
@Lankymart I can't see a reason to vote to close that question
 
@TylerH that only plays in favor of not closing algorithm questions
 
user4639281
@TylerH The final verdict is on the RO team, that does not preclude any regular member from telling any other user that their cv-pls request is incorrect.
 
9:38 PM
@TinyGiant cv-pls being incorrect is a POB matter
You can disagree with a cv-pls
 
@PetterFriberg actually, Jeff favors anything the answerers at large finds enjoyable and happy about meta.unix.stackexchange.com/a/595/41104
 
but it's hard to say one is incorrect unless it's blatantly making up reasons like "I don't like his avatar"
@JanDvorak I don't understand what you're saying
 
@Braiam exactly!
 
what does that have to do with algorithm questions?
 
ooh another question by Jeff stackoverflow.com/questions/1176011/…
can't see any code in it...
 
user4639281
9:39 PM
@TylerH Requesting closure of a question using the Debugging / No MCVE reason when the question is not a debugging question is blatantly incorrect.
 
@PetterFriberg which right now, they (the answerers) seems to be at crossroads
 
@JanDvorak I haven't asked for any algorithm questions to be closed AFAIK (at least not recently) but the rule would apply to any cv-pls
 
@TylerH we weren't calling you out.
 
darn, sci hub is down...
 
@JanDvorak I know, I was just stating that for the record, but the second half of comment still stands
 
9:40 PM
I do agree with that half, too
 
@TinyGiant Okay, I should have clarified; I'm referring to calling someone's cv-pls invalid as in "that question should not be closed, don't ask for it to be closed". I agree if you use a premade CV reason (like No MCVE) for a question that has an MCVE or a question that is not about debugging, that we should point that out.
But still, the verbiage that was used, e.g. "Calling someone out" is not constructive, IMO
that phrase has a negative connotation to it
which is especially not helpful if it was just a mistake on the requestors part
 
I'm not great at language. Sorry
 
Sorry =w= my fault
 
@PetterFriberg what makes Jeff a good benchmark?...no offence but Joel posted a blatant off-topic post on meta which nearly broke the internet.
 
tl;dr - I'm saying we shouldn't block users from cv-pls'ing a question in general, but we can point out when we see an incorrect reason used or ask why they chose that reason
 
9:43 PM
@Lankymart ask @TylerH
 
@Lankymart overstatement. It only broke SO's comment system on that post.
 
@JanDvorak adding a bit of drama...
 
So was he
 
user4639281
@TylerH Maybe I just have a different definition of calling someone out than you do
 
user4639281
@Lankymart The point is that people are saying that Jeff thinks all questions need code, when he obviously doesn't think that
 
9:45 PM
@TinyGiant must have missed that.
 
Code helps, but some questions can definitely float without it!
 
@Compass they'd need to be stella questions in my opinion.."give me the algorithm" isn't a stella question, especially when it contains no context at all.
 
@Lankymart I for sure are very tired of debugging questions, with tons of code, instead I sit and wait hopping someone like to do something new, hence a question "How can I do this stuff?", I don't want some bad try (code) in question, it just needs to be something new and interesting, some challenge..
 
I'm not saying all questions can, just some.
 
@Lankymart I took your rrr
 
9:48 PM
@PetterFriberg I like that style
 
...and for my next trick, I will pull two services out of a single service!
Here is one of the best Java questions that provides no code. stackoverflow.com/questions/40480/…
 
@Compass best as?
 
SO is full of all these debugging questions with code... stop asking that crap... ask some interesting that you could not manage to do, that you have no clue, that you can't find on google with a simple search
 
Conceptual questions about a language can stand on their own without code.
Those are relatively rare, but when they are asked properly, they work.
 
To me also "How the heck do I do this", with a good explanation why and how you wanted it to be....
who cares what you tried if you failed...
 
9:51 PM
Person asks how to upload a file with a servlet. I mean, if you're doing it wrong, it's nice to know, but that entire premise isn't going to grow into an answer.
If it has no code, I would say, be wary, but do not be hammery unless it warrants hammery.
 
This is not a debugging question stackoverflow.com/q/31626356/792066; for example, he's showing what he attempted and why he isn't satisfied with the results
 
@PetterFriberg so what about... "I'm completely new to X, I have no idea how to do Y. How do I do Y?"
@Lankymart maybe it's just me but I'd be... "Read a book, do some research, have a go then come back".
 
user4639281
@Compass sit on [javascript] + [algorithm]; recently active and you'll see they aren't very rare at all.
 
user4639281
@Braiam Oh absolutely, including an attempt is a good idea in most cases, but not including it doesn't make the question off-topic
 
user4639281
@Lankymart I would much prefer "How do I turn my example input into my expected output?"
 
9:58 PM
@TinyGiant In what language I have to tell you that "having not code = off topic" isn't what I'm saying?
 
user4639281
@Braiam JavaScript
 
@Lankymart you are doing it to simple, the first question I gave that is the best most interesting question I have seen on jasper-report, was simply how do I use (base64, data uri) in the html?.... why is it interesting?.... since just putting in code it will not work... and to me you do not even need to state that you tried... since I already know that... either you where lucky and with out testing you asked a good question, but I assume you tried...
Hence the question has value if it is something new, something not obvious...(that you can find on internet... in all the other 1000 questions on SO)
code in question --> just another debug this for me question
 
function question_on_topic (question) {
    if (question.find("<code>") !== -1) {
         return "Can't decide";
    }
}
not even jshint can complain about that ^
 
Warning: not all program paths end at a return statement
Actually, jshint only complains the function is unused.
JSLint, however...
This function needs a "use strict" pragma.
function question_on_topic (question) {
0.27
Unexpected space between 'question_on_topic' and '('.
function question_on_topic (question) {
2.9
Expected 'return' at column 8, not column 9.
         return "Can't decide";
 
@TinyGiant urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=call%20out At best it's a confrontational/adversarial way to confront something you disagree with or have questions/concerns about
@PetterFriberg nobody said that, don't put words in peoples' mouths
 
user4639281
10:06 PM
@TylerH So then I definitely have a different definition for it
 
user4639281
Or maybe I'm just thinking about "calling attention to" something as opposed to "calling something out"
 
I think the FAQ did use to use that term...
 
user4639281
@Braiam technically if that were correct, it would not contain the question code finding thing at all
 
@TylerH sorry but also the other day you made the comparison chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/41570?m=35606094#35606094, hence I'm with Jeff you are with Joel... anyway
 
@TinyGiant yeah, one example I could provide for calling someone out would be a team meeting with a manager, where the manager said "Yeah, and Jon Skeet wrote some untested code and broke our server". But 'calling attention to it' would be better, like "We had some untested code that made it through and broke our server, we need to be more careful about testing our code before committing it".
@PetterFriberg That's from today
And it's referencing Joel's lower/looser standards for what kinds of questions are OK on the site
Doesn't say anything about a question having to have code in it
 
10:10 PM
@TylerH Yeah that's what you said now and the other day similar, anyway I don't care I'm with me : )
 
@TinyGiant wut?
 
English is difficult even for native speakers so I don't blame you for crossed signals
@Braiam but what about jslint? :-P
 
@TylerH Don't you not meant not crossed not signals?
 
@Braiam case in point
 
@Braiam it's not even worth answering that question
 
10:13 PM
@JanDvorak you mean that is not not even worth questioning that not answer?
 
That's not even not ungrammatical...
 
@JanDvorak buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo
 
stackoverflow.com/a/42169499/2756409 Another case in point... can anyone tell if this is an answer?
 
at best "I have the problem too" just that he could actually solve it... just didn't show the solution
 
Yeah, does that count though?
if you say "I solved it" but don't tell us how?
@QPaysTaxes I got an email from TurboTax saying one of my tax forms was finally ready to be filled out but I submitted my taxes weeks ago
and already got my refund...
so I have sorting that out to look forward to when I get home
Probably. But I bet it just routes to a contact us page
not crazy about calling someone for help
I hate it
I have phone call anxiety
I would much rather e-mail, text, IRC, IM, Facebookchat, G Hangout, Skype, or talk in person
before I would call someone on the phone
 
10:25 PM
@TylerH ugh, same thing.
Phone calls have both (1) the real-timeness of in-person conversations (so I can't think about what I want to say as much as I want to), and (2) harder to understand and can't see body language
 
being on the phone is so debilitating IMO. You have to pay 100% attention to it, you miss out on half the communication you would have with video or in-person
 
Not that I'm any good at interpreting it anyway
 
yep @Undo
all of the negatives, very few of the positives
You can hear intonation and are ensured a prompt response but that's about the only plus over text-only communication
 
if your phone is good enough
 
user4639281
@Braiam The state of a question having code should not be taken into consideration when evaluating on-topicness
 
user4639281
10:29 PM
@Braiam some of those should be capitalized
 
darn I missed clicked here after flagging... can you check it out please stackoverflow.com/review/first-posts/15173803
I flagged from outside of review... then went back and clicked Looks OK, opps
 
@TinyGiant well, having it can make it more clear whenever it's on topic or not
 
user4639281
10:45 PM
@Braiam Having code can narrow the scope of a question and make the intent clearer, but a posts scope and clarity is not inherently contingent upon having code.
 
user4639281
The question is not "Is this question too broad without code?" the question is "Is this question too broad?"
 
@TinyGiant dunno you but I stand by my claim: to be on topic it has to be a practically answerable question unique to software development
 
@QPaysTaxes That's ... harsh.
 
@PetterFriberg actually... wut? Supposedly if you flag out of the queue it should show "I'm done"
 
@Braiam Yeah they switch but you can try, I just went back not think about it and clicked the blue box...
now just count the minutes : )
 
10:50 PM
@PetterFriberg That robo reviewer, I should flag... oh wait
 
well, the image was already downloaded by your mobile...
 
Hmm how the heck can I prove this?
i.stack.imgur.com/iAFRH.png ... timestamp \o/
 
Ooh I see the reflag link :p
 
Yeah it's the best...
@Tunaki hmm I ended that review?, you can't fix it correct?
 
yeah one review is all it takes
 
10:56 PM
wondering if it's better that I mod flag or will they delete my account anyway...
 
@SmokeDetector in before spam
 
@SmokeDetector relocate to another country.
 
@PetterFriberg I think you better drop this account and start from scratch now
 
ok I switch to one of the puppets...
@QPaysTaxes coffe break
 
@FireAlarm hahahaha
 
10:59 PM
@FireAlarm YOU!!!!!!!
 
@QPaysTaxes it says 1h, don't worry..
 
@QPaysTaxes add waffles or cookies and you are set for a tea party
btw, The Mad Hatter is invited as organizer
 
Yeah to much fun for you, if you still have some flags, I know where you can entertain yourself.
 
@SmokeDetector it seems to answer the Q and there is context. Is there pretends for these websites?
 
I could not find any... so not sure, not flagging
 
11:07 PM
You mean a precedent?
 
@SmokeDetector at least NAA
 
@JanDvorak yea, that.
 
"replica.co" was the domain
 
@Braiam seems related to this metasmoke.erwaysoftware.com/post/2365
so unrelated
 
11:23 PM
"I'll focus on your other problem in my second answer"
 
user4639281
11:44 PM
@QpaysTaxes !== --
 
user4639281
(alt+0151)
 
eh, close enough
 
user1593881
Greetings people and bots alike.
 
Sam
Hi
 
user4639281
@QPaysTaxes Y U NO HAZ NUMPAD?
 
11:50 PM
umm... keyboard to expensive to have numpad?
btw, I think you can use atlgr or compose to obtain it ­̣̣̣– —
yep, compose FTW --.
Windows?
err... compose key is whatever key you want
mine is the meta button on the right
AltGr is not the compose key
On linux, you can set the compose key on xorg. In Windows... yeah Windows
according to wikipedia you can't unless you use an app en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compose_key#Windows
 
@TinyGiant can you cleanup comments here?
 
user4639281
@QPaysTaxes I use the numpad all the time, how else do you make unicode symbols?
 
user4639281
@rene *sigh* fine
 

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