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4:00 AM
well a page up I described it
 
user4639281
@tripleee I don't know where the conspiracy part came from
 
user4639281
@Drew Yes, what you have described so far is a diamond moderator
 
@TinyGiant if you don't trust five different people to vet each other, you have a conspiracy
 
user4639281
You're basically saying that 5 diamond moderators should go review this stuff instead of the community
 
but maybe it would help if there was a step of delegation
i.e. the people who loudly asked for the purge should not be executing it
 
4:01 AM
I am saying it is just us that does it anyway
Where is the community in that lol
 
user4639281
We should not be excluding anyone
 
user4639281
We want everyone to review
 
there is no single community, it's a nice ideal but that's not really how group dynamics work
 
user4639281
Do you know how many active users there were in this room when I first started hanging out in here?
 
@TinyGiant correction people who actually care about site quality
 
4:02 AM
this room is a community, or a subcommunity
 
no one is excluding them from reviewing
the reality on the ground is that they dont
 
Because to do so, takes a rather large effort
 
user4639281
We have gotten so many people interested in reviewing and moderation in the past year it isn't funny.
 
and the burnout comes from this subcommunity's overcommitting to its perceived responsibilities and mandate
 
user4639281
You slowly gain more and more people until you have enough people to do the job
 
4:03 AM
We have gotten so many that basically just socvr does burn
 
user4639281
You will never get everything that you need right now
 
user4639281
You have to make it work
 
so let Shog assign the cv-mods for larger initiatives. Then take away the power at the end
 
@TinyGiant this is a fallacy, you will never have enough to actually keep the site clean
 
if they abuse the power they go poof
 
user4639281
4:04 AM
@tripleee it's not a fallacy, just a moving goal post
 
@Drew I like this part
 
He gives a 5 day cv-mod "Pass"
 
user4639281
@Drew Never gonna happen
 
now get to work chumps and do it !
 
user4639281
Could you imagine the meta uproar
 
4:05 AM
I look forward to it
 
but who calls the shots in the first place? enough upvotes on a meta post, provided somebody with the appropriate powers notices?
 
I would then say hey, wanna be a cv-mod lol
 
user4639281
It would have to be a community election
 
user4639281
In which case, you're asking for a diamond moderator
 
I know what I am asking for. I said we were too wimpy to write it up
 
4:06 AM
it doesn't have to, as long as we are dreaming up a new world, we can change those things too
 
user4639281
Well if we are leaving reality then this discussion is a waste of time
 
we can't have a referendum on every single decision, sometimes the site owner will just have to decide, and (often) delegate
 
we left reality a long time ago. When godaddy burn began
 
user4639281
I would personally actually like to see a change, not just have a pipe dream about the perfect world, the world isn't perfect, work with what you have.
 
Shog can just assign 5 people. He has the power
 
4:07 AM
Honestly who in their right mind is going to argue with Shog.....
 
user4639281
He has the power, but will never use it for that
 
This is not a democracy
 
user4639281
It is though
 
defining a new regime requires you to leave reality and specify a new reality, you just have to be careful to not invent too many new things at the same time
 
@TinyGiant then why does Docs exist
talk about pipe dream non reality of democracy
 
user4639281
4:08 AM
Because there were so many upvotes
 
then why is docs rep in rep
 
@TinyGiant there are many questions on meta with tons of upvotes which never happened
 
because They chose
 
user4639281
We as a community voted for documentation, like a democracy
 
@Drew "Why does Docs exist" is a good question.
 
4:08 AM
@TinyGiant no, the people who pay money wanted to invest in that
 
your Democracy argument falls flat fast
so Shog can do whatever he wants
and the back-end devs can tie cv-mod votes to just those with certain tags
 
user4639281
He can do whatever he wants, do you think he wants to upset a large portion of the community by making a few members of the community de-facto moderators without input from the rest of the community?
 
user3956566
@Drew thanks ducks
 
@TinyGiant he rotates them. They petition. Be a dreamer
 
@TigerhawkT3 CEO's see a business model IMO
 
user3956566
4:10 AM
@tripleee yep
 
user4639281
Actually @shog, we are all speculating about what you would or would not want to do, care to weigh in?
 
@TinyGiant I don't think it's any more outrageous than the silent spam-fighting work the site admins are doing on the firewall that we never get to see
 
Let's say Yvette is a cv-mod for godaddy. At the end of that, I bet she wants out !
 
user4639281
@tripleee It would be if they went and gave smokey mod powers
 
@tripleee If only they would do crap-fighting too…
 
4:11 AM
@tripleee It's the only reason I'm here and the only reason I hang out in the Tavern
 
If Makato (sp?) is so dying to do the next shift, god bless him
 
user3956566
@Drew well we've closed everything now. We need delete votes
 
@TinyGiant the proposal is for a time-limited and scope-limited delegation
burn something not in the ticket and you're toast
 
user3956566
@tripleee yep
 
^that
 
user4639281
4:12 AM
Why don't we just devise a plan to work with what we have right now?
 
cuz it suques
 
user3956566
cos it doesn't work
 
user4639281
Why do we need something more when we haven't successfully done everything that we can to solve the problem with what we currently have?
 
user3956566
we don't have the tools
 
user4639281
We do have the tools
 
4:13 AM
@TinyGiant It's just as useful as trying to verify binary number addition in regex…
 
we dont have the votes
 
user3956566
they are insufficent
 
@TinyGiant the godaddy case clearly suffered from scalability issues, we want to solve them if we ever need to pull off something like that again
 
user3956566
@Drew exactomundo ducky
 
user4639281
What we don't need is a few fallible people going around with binding votes making a mess of the place
 
4:14 AM
You can do it, but that doesn't mean you should do it… @TinyGiant
 
user3956566
@TinyGiant ?
 
TG have faith in something
 
user4639281
@tripleee Because, like shog said, we were reviewing stuff that we really didn't need to review because it was unarguable garbage
 
@TinyGiant We just don't have the final powers. while it seems to be based on democracy, it isn't after all.
 
user4639281
@Yvette Drew and Tripleee's suggestion of giving 5 normal users binding votes and setting them free to run amok
 
user3956566
4:15 AM
@TinyGiant well I'd hardly say they will run amuck
 
user3956566
no more than mods
 
God no, it's clueless users who are the problem here
 
yes I am saying they are chosen based on their maturity, and the votes are limited to the tag
 
that's "amok", people
 
so if you call that running amok TG go for it
 
4:16 AM
that's inherent in any delegation, you don't delegate if you don't have some trust that the delegee is dependable
 
btw TG you must be a cv-mod cuz I don't wanna be one (unless begged)
 
user3956566
@tripleee precisely
 
but instead of codifying it into practice for all eternity, try it small scale informally a few times and see how it works before you sit down and document how to do it
 
user4639281
I don't trust that anyone in this room including myself could single handedly handle upwards of 200 posts without any margin of error.
 
user4639281
That margin of error is going to be inherently larger than if there were more people reviewing those questions
 
4:18 AM
@TinyGiant which is precisely what also happened with godaddy
 
Then they know that and they leave it alone
 
It also must be said that 10,000 rep is a huge barrier for entry. Granted, you don't want many people to have those sorts of powers, but for someone like me who is interested in keeping the site clean more than I am in answering questions, it's very disheartening.
 
@TinyGiant not necessarily -- more eyes means fewer who actually had proper instruction, on average
 
I'm truly astounded by Yvette's meteoric rep rise
 
I thot she was a slacker?
 
user4639281
4:19 AM
@JamesENL I believe she had a previous account merged with her new account
 
Hence why I got into spam flagging.
 
@JamesENL Not that hard as you think it is. Any idiot like me can break that line.
 
@TinyGiant oohhhhh that makes sense
 
She has been around 4 to 7 years or sumpin
 
user4639281
@tripleee but if you have one person who has a misconception that reviews 100 posts which that misconception applies to, you're going to have 100 posts handled incorrectly
 
4:19 AM
@πάνταῥεῖ depends what tags you're in, some are harder than others
 
Exactly, my tags aren't exactly popular
 
@Drew I think the proper approximation is 6-8
 
@tripleee Sure :) I'm in one of the hardest. Sharks everywhere
 
TG I highly doubt some non-proven fool is given cv-mod power
 
user4639281
@Drew You suggested Yvette right?
 
user3956566
4:20 AM
@JamesENL I had an old account, plus if you look at the posts. I've answered a lot of questions 413 and asked 99
 
user3956566
what's cv mod power?
 
@Yvette Above 3k?
 
user4639281
During the review of closed deleted questions that were closed incorrectly, we found a large number of them had been voted on by Yvette. That's not to say that Yvette is a bad voter, that is to say that everyone is fallible.
 
@Yvette proposed a kilometer back or so, scroll scroll
 
user4639281
Hell, I voted on a lot of those questions, so did rene, and so did tunaki
 
4:22 AM
24 mins ago, by Drew
> When done, shift a slot and review the work of another peer mod
4th paste
 
user3956566
I've been on the phone
 
user4639281
And who reviews the mods that review the mods?
 
But anyway, my point is that keeping the site clean is my jam. It took me way too long to even get to 3000 rep on SO to close vote. If there was some way that I could help out that didn't involve me doing something I'm not hugely interested in just to farm the rep to get there, then I'd be all on that like white on rice.
 
user4639281
More mods reviewing mods?
 
user3956566
@TinyGiant the community
 
user4639281
4:22 AM
Then what is the point in it?
 
@TinyGiant The SE CEO's I'd guess
 
user3956566
@TinyGiant but there must've been 4 other voters on each, so who were they?
 
TG you know I am right. Just get over it :p
 
user4639281
If the community is going to review everything anyway? Why not just get the community to review everything?
 
user4639281
@Yvette me, tunaki, rene, and nathanoliver
 
4:23 AM
because they dont and we are fried out
 
user3956566
they don't, they are the watch dogs. When there is a mistake, it ends up on meta. It's the front page news of SO
 
and Shog said he doesn't want to turn us into machines
 
user4639281
 
user4639281
You suggested me, I am fallible!
 
user4639281
Imagine that!
 
4:24 AM
good. We expect that. Thx for serving
 
user3956566
Everyone makes mistakes
 
and probably what actually ends up on meta is only a tiny fraction of the actual mistakes
 
user4639281
@tripleee Very, very, very, very, very, etc, etc, etc, true
 
no different than any other rant
 
It just took -12 to finally delete spam -.-
 
user4639281
4:25 AM
So why do we need to have this other thing, if everything is going to end up reviewed by the community again anyway?
 
but rejecting the proposal is not going to fix that, and the proposal doesn't make that worse
 
user4639281
Why not... just review?
 
if anything, it will be easier to audit what happened and why
 
Every time I see sd k I wonder which software development kit people are talking about.
 
they dont review
 
user4639281
4:27 AM
So that means that I go and close / delete 200 questions single handedly. Now I have to answer to every yahoo well meaning user that thinks I did it wrong?
 
then dont sign up
 
if you have a ticket, point to that. done
if you exceeded your mandate, you should be taken to task for it
 
@Drew ^Its more like monkeys on keyboards writing shakespeare dramas.
 
user3956566
@TinyGiant because there is only a small percentage of the community working
 
but this is not a lot different from "whine, my question about wine tasting is too on-topic"
 
user3956566
4:28 AM
we need more mods... but as in a different capacity, not moderating user behaviour, but posts
 
I would rather have 5 veterans that make occas mistakes than hacks
 
user3956566
same ^
 
that is a CV-MOD Yv
 
user3956566
ah k and it's only close voting, what about deleting?
 
user3956566
Do they exist in real life or just our chat room?
 
4:29 AM
I really don't need to single out Yv on an "alleged" mistake. We all do it
 
As mentioned before duping is the most helpful form of closing. Even if it needs to take some extrapolation.
 
If people need to "run" to be a cv-mod all the better. You just found a pool of suckers. But they better be good
We all care about this site and don't want to harm it. We have stuff in place for reversals
 
user3956566
So how do the community elect cv mods? On what credentials?
 
@Yvette +3k
They aren't elected, but trusted
 
user4639281
@πάνταῥεῖ Minimum 10k, skin in the game and all that
 
4:32 AM
@yv (you were on the phone):
41 mins ago, by Drew
now if you have real courage, and we were all wimpy and never did it, we as in tuna br David Arenburg and myself. Write up a proposal for a cv-mod class of user that just cleans stuff. Like a mod, but all they do is clean. One vote zap.
 
@Yvette I think Drew's proposal was to simply appoint whoever volunteers, presumably given some basic demonstration of trust and reading comprehension
 
If we were going to go with the idea of a cv-mod I like the idea of appointing people on a temporary basis to deal with a specific tag. It solves several problems including burnout, knowledge of tag, potential misuse of powers etc
 
@TinyGiant You mean deletion?
 
user4639281
@πάνταῥεῖ That is what we are talking about
 
user3956566
I'd volunteer. I love closing off topic posts and am forever trying to recruit people to help me close them
 
user4639281
4:34 AM
Giving a person binding close and deletion votes for a specific tag only during a burnination
 
@πάνταῥεῖ I'd like a clarification on that too, @drew
 
user3956566
I'd love it on the android tag, but am only a bronze tag
 
on what Trip, deletion?
 
@Drew yeah, closing vs deletion powers under this scheme
 
David Arenburg (sp?) 's idea. Frustration in with junk
 
4:34 AM
@TinyGiant Okey, I seem to have missed something. Wording was about closure.
 
@tripleee full mod power
 
user4639281
@πάνταῥεῖ he's calling it a cv-mod, but basically giving a user binding votes in a specific tag only
 
@Drew you can ban people? that seems a bit excessive
 
no
 
user4639281
binding votes only
 
4:35 AM
it is for question and content quality only
mods are too scattered. We need content mods
 
then it's not "full mod power"
 
a.k.a. cv-mods
well for deletes
 
@TinyGiant I have a mjölnir. That's bound to tags.
 
user3956566
I agree we need content mods
 
write it up. We wimped out
 
user3956566
4:36 AM
I wouldn't want to be a mod. But would be interested in being a content mod
 
user3956566
You guys wimped out?
 
we need several content mods per major tag, imo
 
user4639281
don't look at me, I've been downvoting this idea from the get-go
 
I'm in but I also have work to do. what sort of process would be helpful for collaborative writing?
 
user3956566
gist?
 
user3956566
4:37 AM
How many mods do we have on the site?
 
I tried that and it sort of works, but it naturally ends up being owned by whoever creates the gist
 
user3956566
19 mods
 
I would guess 18
 
I have a feeling there's nothing more to be asked in my realm to complete a FAQ repo. Documentation is still poor though.
 
user3956566
4:39 AM
what about starting with 4 content mods. Without tag restriction. If they are worth their weight, they won't vote in tags they don't know about. Like a regular mod
 
btw you might not believe this but the original idea was not just tag isolated and I think Cody and Hans and Hovercraft would love it
why, cuz they are content mods
 
user3956566
how are they content mods?
 
some guy stumbles in with a horrible question. Bing. Closed
and @TigerhawkT3 types
 
user3956566
can they close it with one vote?
 
y
if they abuse it, poof
 
4:41 AM
@Drew I'm choosing weird dupes just to do that frequently.
 
@Yvette at that point… why can't they just be full-fledged mods?
 
Extrapolation
 
@πάνταῥεῖ I am not addressing you directly because I am still upset with you. This msg is an illusion :p
 
user4639281
@bwoebi I'm guessing because the idea is to give them more focus
 
user3956566
@bwoebi mods look at IP addresses and can investigate user accounts and ban users
 
user4639281
4:42 AM
No flags, no user moderation, no nothing but posts
 
user3956566
yes this would not be on behaviour, but content
 
@bwoebi because they cant ban and have other tools who knows we are dreaming
 
user3956566
@TinyGiant exactly
 
user4639281
I still disagree
 
@Drew You shouldn't be upset with me. You probably didn't get the whole story.
 
user3956566
4:42 AM
I'm really only interested in the content, we can flag user behaviour and let others manage that
 
has anyone seen @πάνταῥεῖ ?
 
Don't know who you're talking about
I'd be interested in helping write a proposal
 
@Drew It was after you've been leaving upset.
 
user4639281
I'm going to go use some binding close votes
 
@Drew Check the transcript maybe.
 
user3956566
4:44 AM
@JamesENL please feel free to write a draft
 
yes
 
Can do
I'll make a start
 
@BhargavRao @Tunaki ^
thx James
 
Using google docs because that's the one I normally use
 
That is swell thxx
 
user3956566
4:46 AM
@JamesENL no worries
 
user3956566
hm how do we get our close vote stats
 
it might never make it to meta. It might just happen. Who knows in this zanny place
 
user3956566
11,044 Votes Cast
 
That's a lot of 40 vote days @Yvette
 
user3956566
@AndrewL. erm that a library link
 
user4639281
4:48 AM
@AndrewL. Yes, that documentation is primarily opinion based
 
Dangit clipboard
 
:32857384 vote, vote, vote
 
Waffle
 
@tripleee I'm doing so all the time, unless I'm distracted too much like e.g. from here :)
 
@JamesENL fyi i envisioned at least 2 CV-MODs per major tag. I just rolled the idea into the current discussion of burn
 
4:51 AM
might need more
 
like, a 1 month shift so as not to burn out for major tags
 
user3956566
thanks James
 
user3956566
@JamesENL looking good
 
Feel free to comment/edit/suggest changes
 
4:53 AM
guys like Barmar and Fred would be permanent cv-mods but encouraged to take a break
 
If you switch your mode to suggesting rather than editing, then it tracks changes
 
user3956566
I'll wait until you're finished
 
@Drew Barmar answers too often, instead of close voting. He's lacking the hammer.
 
Barmar is about the only saving grace I have to close mysql right now
I like the guy
 
I like him as well, just acts poor in my realm.
 
4:56 AM
He is a reasonable dupehammer in PHP. He waits a bit for someone to answer if no one does he does just to get it over with
He is not after points. He is thoughtful
 
I don't believe he is, nor I am any more
 
Fred is a no brainer for PHP cv-mod
in my book.
Nov 24 '15 at 20:21, by Rizier123
@Drew Yup, he's a nice guy. He has patience like a cactus!
 
Do answers actually encourage bad questions or not?
 
He actually has patience :p
 
user3956566
 
@Yvette That user originally commented on another answer on that q saying the q was opinionated and the answer should be a comment... But still answers?
 
user3956566
@AndrewL. exactly!
 
Argh!
Was that ^ rude / abusive?
 
Yes
 
Was it a foreign language? I was about to flag due to 'loser' but it was deleted
 
5:05 AM
@Drew most people with gold badges are relatively reasonable
 
@AndrewL. - IDk . Looked like english gibberish posted to troll / spam SO
 
I agree @bwoebi
 
@bwoebi I'm an idiot to state it again.
 
case in point. most
 
@πάνταῥεῖ I SAID MOST, CAN?T YOU HEAR??? :-P
 
5:06 AM
@bwoebi NOT DEAF
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Well, just nearly.
 
@bwoebi You probably get me wrong.
 
Ok @TheLostMind
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Always.
 
@bwoebi And it's mostly my fault I think.
 
5:08 AM
Do we have a JS gold in here?
 
@πάνταῥεῖ I'd get you in particular wrong too when it's not your fault :-P … :-P
 
@bwoebi May be. I'm a poor idiot
 
@AndrewL. they are transient. Pretty much Alexander and TG
That means they pass thru
 
@πάνταῥεῖ No, you're not.
 
@bwoebi THX for the flowers :)
 
5:10 AM
@πάνταῥεῖ Did I compliment you?
 
I'm of course responsible and in charge
@bwoebi Not so sure :P
 
I'm just saying you're not a poor idiot. You're a smart idiot, … and that's, as it's well known, the most dangerous sort of them :-P
 
@Drew @Yvette and others concerned, I'm writing this proposal in terms of burninations, but we can change that later if we want to make this a broader proposal
 
it is called feature creep James
 
user3956566
@JamesENL ah k sorry.
 
5:13 AM
Just so you aware
 
user3956566
ah k
 
user3956566
afk
 
The old bait and switch
 
user3956566
I gotta go, see you later alligator
 
user3956566
s
 
5:15 AM
o/
 
Well seeing as how this whole thing started was burninations, I feel like it'd be preferable to keep that the focus, we can widen it later if we want
 
user3956566
it's just that I've started another proposal about burninations
 
Bye yvette!
 
They are separate issues
 
5:17 AM
Would you prefer we frame this as a per-tag cleanup? @Drew and others?
Because that's fine too
 
What I prefer is what can be sold to people. In the coming days you will get input. How it is received idk
What I "prefer" is a cv-mod class. In reality I doubt meta and certainly not corporate want that. Even if they are patient cv-mods willing to wait an hour before closing an ill-formed question with 1 vote. My pessimism is due to just leave it open and welcome everyone. I feel they don't really want junk closed fast. Just my 2 cents
 
Now if Shog were to dispute that feeling, that would be swell
 
As mentioned I'd love to have Jeff Atwood still around.
He was going into the right direction IMO
 
5:28 AM
The reason for cv-mods is in keeping with what shog wrote about machines. Five mature adults should not be needed to close a question where the op leaned an elbow on the keyboard. This is what Shog said:
(placeholder) ... oh it's up there somewhere cant find it
 
Ok, I'm heading out for lunch. The draft is done. Feel free to add comments and suggestions
 
user4639281
Boom. There's all my close votes for today, now tell me I did it all wrong.
 
All I know is (unless a figment of my imagination) Yvette sent me a message that Shog was considering upping the delvote count presumably for burn efforts and godaddy. And gnat invited me to a room or commented in a special room for a del effort. So I say strike while the iron is hot. They know the effort is broken, and Shog showed up here out of the blue. Now once done joking about reptiles, what is the first thing that Shog asks? The first thing on his mind?
3 hours ago, by Shog9
So.. Who thinks the current burnination process is busted?
So he knows it is broken and we can craft choices to fix it
 
5:43 AM
@Queen It was me who proposed that. Just didn't hammer.
 
Should I delete an answer that I thought was correct and was upvoted, but because of a library I had no knowledge about, the answer was wrong?
 
what is the link
 
here. I didn't know ablut matplotlib so my answer was wrong
 
well if you flat out know it is crap yeah kill it
 
Feel like I should delete in favor of the accepted answer which I upvoted.
Ok.
Lately I've been losing a bit of rep from user removed. It's kinda annoying
 
5:48 AM
@Shadow no brainer dupe. I get 15 more points they are insta close :p
I am just lazy today. The questions drag me down
 
@Drew Ahh gotcha! You know that dread feeling :P
 
Give Drew his hammer!
 
@AndrewL. Add a tag to that question ;)
 
gunner would love that
 
One day I will be a cool kid with a gold badge
 
5:52 AM
@Drew I'm pretty sure you'll deserve it.
 
There's a python gold regular in this room right?
 
@AndrewL. Tigerhawk is IIRC
 
user4639281
@AndrewL. there's a couple
 
How could I forget
 
I'm Python gold badge but quite irregular.
 
5:54 AM
Ok, so there's python, c++, js, php
Any more?
 
bash
 
@AndrewL. c++ is just me and @Nathan IIRC
 
Wow, bash? That's impressive
Ok
I'm almost at JS bronze badge =D. 98/100
 
@AndrewL. Too lazy, but might be worth it.
 
Don't think so
> Disregard indentation
 
5:59 AM
@TinyGiant I want to pick up typescript. Ease my way into es5
 
How dare you disregard indentation in python?
 
user4639281
@Drew If you want to learn es5, don't start with typescript
 
Why es5?
 
but I don't understand squat
 

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