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12:53 AM
@closey starting
 
@GreenAsJade May Shog9's Will be done.
 
I don't actually like Shog9 that much, Closey, but if you say so...
@ anyone: Can you comment on my comment on this question. stackoverflow.com/review/close/8179258 . Interested to know if you agree with this "grey zone" suggestion. If you do, you could upvote. If you don't, I guess you'll VTC or something...
 
 
2 hours later…
2:38 AM
@GreenAsJade "How does X work?" Is too broad of a question
Good (complete) answers will be too long for the Stack Overflow format.
If he edited the question to ask what it does in the context of a specific code snippet example, that would be a much better candidate question
 
3:35 AM
That's a generalisation @TylerH . Have you specifically considered whether it's true for this question, or are you voting to close on the basis that this question fits the regex you mentioned?
 
@GreenAsJade I don't know regular expressions
 
I think this question could be answered in 2-3 paragraphs.
 
I am talking about this specific question
"How does X work" in this context is too broad
 
LOL. I mean, you said "How does X work" is too broad ofa question
 
it is too broad if a question
in just about any scenario
 
3:36 AM
Do you mean any question of this form is too broad?
You do
 
Notice I said "just about any"
 
That is sad - you are applying a generalisation without giving thought to individual instances.
 
@GreenAsJade please don't make assumptions on my behalf
How do you know I haven't given thought or that I'm not making this statement based on experience?
 
Sorry may I say "it appears that you are applying a generalisation without giving thought to individual instances.".
Which is what I meant
 
At any rate, I'm only giving you the community line, which I happen to agree with
 
3:38 AM
Thanks. I mean thanks for clarifying those two points.
Of course you are entitiled to agree with the community line. I happen to find it a sad approach, but I'm just one guy.
At least I know where you're coming from, which is good.
 
Any way, there's no code in the question, there's a very general, broad question "How does X work?" without code context. It's easily CV-able as Too Broad
 
Yes. It certainly is: no-one can argue that it doesn't qualify for CV as too broad - it absoltely does
 
and based on the github explanation provided in a comment, I'd say it's also easily a question where a good answer would be too long
 
The only question is whether discretion can and should be applied because it is actually a useful question that can be answered within the guidelines
That last point I have not come to grips with yet - I'll take a look
I initially thought an expert could explain in a few paragraphs what is going on.
 
An expert has answered with basically a link answer
his doesn't really explain how it works
(at least I assume he's an expert, with 100k+ rep from python alone)
 
3:45 AM
I agree that the current answer is a link only answer, which backs up your assertion. I also had a look at the code. There is, on the face of it, a lot. On the otherhand, much of it is either class boilerplate or maths implementation of functions that take a word to reference. So its conceivable that the answer could be a few sentences like to "take thes eignvalue, inverts the matrix and take sthe chomsky decomposition to get the answer" (I made that up, it's not the actual answer!)
My current feeling - not shared by the current discussions on Meta at the moment - is that StackOverflow is less useful than it could be because people pedantically close questions that actually help people WITHOUT damaging the site. But that's a long debate. I offered up this question to us CVQ folk to see what the reaction to this sort of idea would be among us who actualy implement the policies. My first datapoint (you) is negative. C'est la vie :)
 
4:02 AM
@GreenAsJade Yes, Stack Overflow could be something a lot different than what it is
It could be a discussion forum where people can talk at length about whatever programming question they might have
It could allow for opinionated questions/answers, tutorial/resource lists and compilations, etc.
But it doesn't
The goal of Stack Overflow, according to the community and the developers, is to create a site that has an answer to every programming question. To that end, it requires high quality questions with specific, isolated problems that can be reproduced by anyone passing by.
@GreenAsJade as far as that goes, even though you made up that example, such an answer would not really be appropriate for Stack Overflow. It would belong perfectly on Math Overflow, however.
 
4:30 AM
Yes - it could be those things you mentioned. It's important for me to emphasise that I'm not suggesting for a moment that it be those things you mentioned. I would like to understand how you got that out of what I said?
Because @TylerH I didn't suggest for a moment opening the doors to opinion or talking at length
 
@GreenAsJade how I got what out of what you said?
I don't know what "that" is referring to
 
How you got that I am suggesting that we could make it a place for opinion and talking at length?
I had a very specific, and different suggestion
 
@GreenAsJade I didn't say you were suggesting that
I was giving those as extra examples to illustrate my point about what Stack Overflow is versus what it is not.
 
Ah OK phew. Why did you mention those possible but unlikely dramatic changes, when I was talking about a different more in-line change?
 
notably, my examples are all close vote reasons :-)
 
4:32 AM
I see - it was "hyperbole"
 
yes
 
But - hyperbole is dangerous, because it washes out the subtle with the gross
 
Out of curiosity, is English your native language?
 
And tars the subtle with the stink of the gross.
Yes
Well - Australian :)
I have well educated English parents, which shows in my turn of speech :)
I'm old too, maybe I have old fashioned turn of phrase.
Anyhow: I was specifically refering to a subtle change of course, that remains within the goals and guidelines.
 
@GreenAsJade Yes, I agree; with some editing, the post could become better fit for "on topic"
 
4:35 AM
Specifically that questions which are
- About programming or programming tools (as per guidelines)
- Able to be answered in a few paragraphs (as per guidelines)
-- With answers that are factual and enduring (as per guidelines)

should be cut slack and allowed to exist for the benefit of all
 
Specifically, if the OP were to include the Python code that uses the line he referenced.
 
because they are helpful to and do not detract from the goal of making StackOVerflow a good resource for programmers
 
Thinking about it, however, a case could be made that even good edits would still make the question more appropriate for a site like MathOverflow
If the question is ultimately just asking what a mathematical representation is doing, that is
Otherwise any question such as "What does math.floor do in JavaScript" would be allowed
and those are too basic. There used to be a close vote reason for that, IIRC, a long time ago
but the past year or so has seen Shog, et al change the CV reasons to be very, very specific and politically correct.
 
Unfortunately, I find myself not relating to much that Shog9 says.
However this question doesn't ask a maths question. It asks how does a programming library work
I guess one could nitpick that this is a maths question in this case.
At a meta level I'm arguing against nitpicking in favour of closing, and rather, erring on the side of leave open, where the answer is clearly helpful and those bullets above.
Thanks, by the way, for arguing with me: it is helpful to have my argument tested.
There is so much that is negative about closing marginal questions:
- Often, the asker found out what they needed, despite the question being unclear.
-- Someone helped them - isn't that great.
- Most importantly: google means that this does NOT create noise that detracts from StackOverflow as as useful resources for specific questions.
-- If you google for a specific question, the good clear answers come up.
-- MOST SIGNIFICANTLY ... closing them doesn't help. Questions have to be deleted to disappear from StackOverflow and search. So all this closing isn't helping the stated goal ... it
 
4:53 AM
Personally I would not argue that it is a math question; I was just commenting that I could see how it might be argued that it is a math question
@GreenAsJade this last point isn't quite true; closing a question puts it on hold or closes it (as a duplicate). This always comes with a message explaining to the asker why the question was closed (and how to improve it). Or, in the case of a duplicate, points the asker to a question and answer(s) that solve their problem.
The OP always has the ability to edit their question and vote/flag to re-open
 
5:39 AM
Yes - that's true, @TylerH (about the effect of closure). But I was focussed specifically on the given reasons why "we don't want unclear questions here". It is said to be that "we don't want our resource of answers messed up with unclear questions". I've come to thinking that this is A) not a something that happens ... because people find the answers they want with google, and its clever enough to lead to the right question and
B) "closing" questions doesn't help in this regard: a closed question shows up in google as much as an open one
 
@GreenAsJade there are algorithms that automatically delete closed questions
and questions that don't fall into that algorithm can still be delete-voted by users with 10K rep
@GreenAsJade there's a problem with googling stuff and getting bad results from stack overflow; often people will find only the poor questions
Stack Overflow is less effective in its goal when you can't find the good content due to all the crap questions
 
Yes - 1) they can be deleted, but they aren't in practice. 2) It's asserted that they will find the poor questions, but I don't see any evidence of it. If you are searching for something "good" , you will not use search terms that find the really unclear questions.
"Stack Overflow is less effective in its goal when you can't find the good content due to all the crap questions" ... is stated often, but I've come to think that there is no evidence for this. It's stated as self evident, but it doesn't seem to hold up to scrutiny. I guess if I'm so keen, I should do some experiments.
But in any case, it seems to be an obviously empty assertion, because for the most part the crap questions are left closed (not deleted) anyhow - it seems.
I say "it seems" because I haven't been able to find a single question I close voted that is subsequently deleted. BUT I'm not sure if that's because I can't see them once they're gone :)
But what I can see is that there's a large pile of questions I've close-voted that aren't deleted. Which means that they are still available to google...
AIUI
 
 
5 hours later…
11:08 AM
I've been reading more about this. I liked this answer from Shog: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/254410/554807 .
I've started to think that closing is in fact a gigantic waste of time.
Given that downvoting gets questions "out of the way" anyhow, I wonder why they need to be closed at all...
 
The whole stackoverflow moderating theme is a waste of time...
 
Well... I guess we could go completely nhilist and let anarchy rule. Personally, I hadn't reached that level yet ;)
 
The purpose of close voting was to prevent answers being given on poor questions. In theory that could work, with the large incoming flood of crap, not so well
 
I like that purpose. I'd get right behind it
BUT. It's not the purpose Shog gives us in that answer I referred to. And clearly the current system doesn't implement that, because it takes a while to get a "hold", by which time there are already answers.
Though... I've started to feel that the definition of "poor questions" is way too harsh, as well. I'd like to choke unsalveagable questions as much as the next person, but I actually think more good is done than harm when people help newbies who aren't great at asking or coding. Closing those ones seems counterproductive to me: it just irritates the asker and the answerer, and doesn't result in less people seeing the question (which usually has downvotes indicating its quality
anyhow)
 
 
2 hours later…
12:53 PM
I'm flagging as I go on [legal] questions, but the queue is unlikely to help with these until someone cast a vote, since a single flag doesn't create a task in the queue
 
voted
 
1:11 PM
Hi together!
 
1:33 PM
voted
 
@rene thanks!
 
2:31 PM
@Kitler: Hi! Do you have some CVs left?
 
 
2 hours later…
4:29 PM
Looks like there is going to be quite a few close votes coming in for in the coming days: meta.stackoverflow.com/q/295117/359284
 
 
2 hours later…
6:41 PM
@KevinBrown On the starboard now!
 
7:18 PM
@Closey alive?
 
@rene I'm not dead yet!
 
@Closey status
 
SOCVR ChatBot version 1.0.0.0, running for 2 days, 5 hours, 58 minutes and 34 seconds.
 
@Closey starting
 
@rene Watch out for audits!
 
7:20 PM
Let me check if there is already some stuff to do
@Closey refresh tags
 
Refreshing the tag listing. Please wait...
@rene Tag data has been refreshed.
 
@Closey current tag
 
@rene Sorry, I don't understand that. Use commands for a list of commands.
 
@Closey current tag
 
@rene The current tag is with 110 known review items.
 
tnx
In case anyone still needs to close vote, there are at least 30 reviews in the queue on @GreenAsJade @gunr2171 @TylerH @Sam @ProgramFOX
Maybe @easwee can give them the final blow tomorrow morning ...
 
Sam
I'll see what I can do.
 
I'll continue with
 
Sam
@honk closed
 
@Sam great, thanks!
 
Sam
7:43 PM
np
> There are no items for you to review, matching the filter "off-topic, unclear what you're asking, too broad, primarily opinion-based; [legal]"
 
Are questions on how to uninstall database software on-topic?
 
Sam
@honk Generally speaking, I'd say no.
 
> Thank you for reviewing 40 close votes today; come back in 4 hours to continue reviewing.
 
@rene Thanks for reviewing! To see more information use the command last session stats.
 
@Closey last session stats
 
7:48 PM
@rene Your last completed review session ended 13 seconds ago and lasted 28 minutes and 40 seconds. You reviewed 40 items, averaging a review every 43 seconds.
 
@KevinBrown I'll be run through legal in The Queue starting from tomorrow (out of reviews today. While we're at it, please keep in mind that legal advice is explicitly off-topic at Programmers so it's safer to abstain of recommending this site for legal stuff
 
Sam
And I've just reached over 2K reviews \o/
 
@Sam How could I then flag this one (in case I should)?
 
Sam
@honk Off-topic -> "Questions about general computing hardware and software are off-topic for Stack Overflow unless they directly involve tools used primarily for programming. You may be able to get help on Super User."
And I'm off. Cya.
 
@Sam you'll get to the top....someday... thanks for the effort so far ;)
 
7:54 PM
Just wondering: Isn't a database a tools used primarily for programming?
 
@gnat Yeah, I put in a custom close reason for one question before realizing that it was probably a bad move. Thanks for the reminder though.
 
@honk well, yes, no, most are used with a product (so where you can argue is ms-access is a database..)
 
> There are no items for you to review, matching the filter "[legal]"
 
@rene Well, I'm still trying find the border between which tool questions are on-topic and which are off-topic (see my example above and Sam's suggestion).
 
8:12 PM
Installing the tool is borderline. Sometimes I redirect to SU or DBA.se, otherwise I vote as too broad, because we can't support writing an tutorial for installing or uninstalling a tool
If they ask however about during the uninstall in step 4a an error popped up that I had to bar the foo. How do I do that? I tried fubar! would be on topic and answerable (I guess)
 
@rene ok, thanks, this helps me
 
do we cv very old questions? stackoverflow.com/questions/563198/…
 
8:28 PM
@rene I ran through the queue late last night so I have to wait another hour or so before I can hit it again
 
OK
@user1803551 yes, we do
@user1803551 but you have to wonder if it is really necessary
 
@rene Really cv? The answers to that question seem to provide helpful information. I thought we don't want to delete helpful content. Or am I wrong?
 
I only touch those if a new answer arrives or someone points out on meta that other questions are open
@honk closing doesn't delete it
it signals it is off-topic NOW and that should signal new users that they can't ask such questions today
 
@Sam nice job. I'm at around 2100 CV reviews, I think
@user1803551 that question's best end-game is migration to Math Overflow but it's way too old to migrate
You could CV it as too broad/unclear how it relates to programming, but it probably wouldn't garner enough CVs before they started expiring
Anyway, it has some good answers, so I flagged it for a moderator to consider manually migrating it to Math Overflow
@rene or preferably that they should edit it to make it ON topic
 
Yep, true
 
8:35 PM
@rene Sorry, I'm not yet familar with that due to low rep. I thought that something gets automatically deleted after is has been closed for some time (if it doesn't get improved in-between). How does the transition really work?
 
let me find the Roomba rules
 
@honk yup
 
@GreenAsJade Many questions are deleted in practice. You just don't know how many because you can't see them yet :-) Also, it's good practice to respond inline directly to messages in chat. When you hover over someone's message (other than your own), you will see an arrow at the bottom-right of that message. Click it and you will be able to respond directly to it, with hyperlinking and all.
 
144
Q: Enable automatic deletion of old, unanswered zero-score questions after a year?

Jeff AtwoodRelated to meta.su efforts: Old unanswered inactive questions with low views/votes and meta.sf efforts: Cleaning house, really old, unloved questions We already auto-remove negatively voted unanswered old questions automatically after 30 days, network wide, with no human intervention required...

 
@honk if a question is closed, it will automatically be deleted if it has a negative score and has no accepted answer or no answer with upvotes, etc.
AKA only "bad" closed questions are auto-deleted
based on the developers' algorithms.
 
8:38 PM
The algo is explained in the answer I just linked
 
Thanks
 
Thanks for the explanation. Besides automatic deletion, can posts be deleted manually? Who can do that? And when? As far as I understand, a bad question will not be deleted automatically if it has an accepted answer, even if the answer is bad as well...
 
@honk Yes
Once you get to 10,000 reputation, you can cast delete votes
I believe you get 10 per day
A question requires five delete votes to be deleted.
However, once a user has 20,000 reputation, they have expanded deletion powers
It only takes three delete votes from 20k rep users to delete a question
And of course, a moderator can do it single-handedly
10k/20k users can also cast undelete votes
with the same requirements
 
Cool. Might get interesting for me in 10 years or so ;) Do you know how long a post can be undeleted before it disappears forever? Or can a post always be undeleted?
 
8:54 PM
As far as I know (I'm not even at 10k reputation yet), posts never disappear
they'll always be "visible" to people with appropriate permissions
 
That is correct
 
rene knows
He's seen things
 
I once wrote a stupid answer which I deleted afterwards. I can no longer access it. Is it really still somewhere where certain people can look at it?
 
@honk You should be able to still see your own delete answers
you just have to go to that question
 
Yes, if you have a link to the question...
 
8:57 PM
You can see "recently deleted" questions/answers from your profile for a month or two, I think
after that they are only viewable in the question or at the URL they were created
 
@honk The problem for 10K users is finding it. You have the exact same problem if the question is not deleted, only your answer (otherwise you need 10K to see the question). Only mods can search deleted posts too.
 
@TylerH Has he seen this?
 
I deny everything
 
:))
 
@Closey starting
 
9:01 PM
@TylerH Don't get lost in the queue!
 
I will do some work now
 
@all Understood. Thank you for eagerly explaining everything to me :)
 
np
 
> There are no items for you to review, matching the filter "[legal]"
Passed C audit
Passed PHP audit
> Thank you for reviewing 40 close votes today; come back in 2 hours to continue reviewing.
 
@TylerH Thanks for reviewing! To see more information use the command last session stats.
 
9:07 PM
Boy, legal is easy
 
Then try legit ;)
 
I may have set a new record
@Closey last session stats
 
@TylerH Your last completed review session ended 1 minute and 7 seconds ago and lasted 5 minutes and 45 seconds. You reviewed 40 items, averaging a review every 8 seconds.
 
Nope
 
ha
 
9:12 PM
if there had been 40 questions under , I probably would have
slowed down when switched to database
Couldn't rely on a handy custom close comment anymore
 
Ok, gotta hit the bed. Cya!
 
cya
 
still some 400 questions with the tag. I wonder how many of those are also CV worthy
 
9:27 PM
We let that for the followers on the meta post figure out. Once voted we'll handle those...
 
9:46 PM
I'm out...
 

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