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00:22
@IanCampbell IIRC, our highest (ever) rep. visitor (VonC) was in here once, debating the issue of transcribing code-as-image into text. Their argument was that they were using Google Lens (I think that's what it's called), which is pretty accurate, etc. Not sure how the debate ended ... I just went off for a beer or four, to celebrate our Millionaire visitor. :) cc @dbc
... not that I really needed an excuse a reason for a beer or six. :-)
 
2 hours later…
02:40
The above Programming Problems in Java is nothing but a list of homework problems, for others to do for the OP.
I've been noticing a number of probably-mostly-autogenerated answers recently, probably from ChatGPT... bing.com/…
Probably deserves a meta post of some sort... it's gonna really change things
03:34
^ Hmmm... Bing search returns 253 billion results. Somehow I don't think they actually limited it to just SO. :;
But, yes, the existing chatGPT MSO post (or other media exposure) appears to have resulted in numerous people trying to gain quick, low-effort rep by posting what is often crap, but that superficially looks like it might be reasonable.
04:05
@CertainPerformance If the answers are bad, then downvote. If it looks like the user is spraying out bad answers, then it's reasonable to raise an "in need of moderator intervention" flag and explain, but downvoting is critical. If the answers are good, and the user provides attribution for the work which they didn't author, than that's fine. If the user doesn't provide attribution for what they copy & pasted, then that's against our referencing policy. I understand that some people may not feel that such automatically generated text needs referencing, but it's not the work of the person who posted it, so there should be attribution. Who owns the copyright, or even if there is a copyright on that auto-generated text is unclear. Is it a derivative work of all the text which went into training the AI? Is it the work of the people who created the AI and trained it? Is copyright shared with the person who provided the input which the bot responded to?
04:19
@CertainPerformance and @Makyen: interesting profile name.
and I have sent a mod flag on that one
05:05
Is stackoverflow.com/questions/74670180/… on-topic? Is there maybe some other additional Google-specific tag that would be suitable for it?
05:47
@Adriaan IMO it's generally cleaner not to mix HTML with CommonMark, e.g. in this edit not using </br> but instead a blank line causes the content to be wrapped in a paragraph which tends to be easier to write and make the post's source easier to read.
@sideshowbarker that's a neat trick, I can't see your username only the diamond.
@bad_coder my goal was not to ask for justifications but to try to explain that editing bad questions just to remove salutations, without otherwise doing any other improvements to them, is not fair to the other participants on the site. It might be fair for the people that do moderation, but it's not fair for the ones that are actively looking for questions to answer. And with this, I think we can end the discussion, as it seems it can't generate productive replies anymore.
06:23
@Cristik don't worry about, hope you're not mad at me.
anyway, I have to admit you found a new argument I hadn't heard! The thing about "feeds".
My answer is this: I've been involved in at least 50% of closures on the PyCharm tag over the last couple of years (give or take) and I'm one of the few guys who edits old stuff.
There aren't that many users answering/watching the tag (and the activity tab even less so) because if there were they'd be answering and curating. But the fact is hardly anyone curates and only about half a dozen users answer regularly.
So, I'm not really aware of anyone being bothered by the edits - I have a very hard time imagining that. I think it's much more likely readers have overall had substantial gains of my curation and the fact often 50% of Qs are closed when they check on the tag for the day.
@Cristik feel free to pnig any time and no hard feelings. o/
07:39
@bad_coder Can I pnig you at any time? ;)
08:39
@bad_coder It’s such a neat trick that I have no idea how I did it, or where 😆
08:52
this question strikes me as closeworthy, but which close reason makes sense here? Needs focus? stackoverflow.com/questions/74673766/…
@tripleee went with Needs Details
 
1 hour later…
 
2 hours later…
11:39
@DavidW That is a weird one. It is blatantly off-topic, but got two answers, and both have one upvote. I have modflagged that Q&A
@janw It did seem a little odd. I couldn't see anything obviously suspicious about the two accounts that posted answers so I'm not convinced there's anything deeper going on except people answering poor questions
@DavidW Yeah, I wasn't not sure either. It got deleted now
I wonder if at least one of the answers was generated using ChatGPT. I have seen several such (suspected) cases on SO today already. Another moderation nightmare
 
1 hour later…
13:01
I would like to raise a moderator flag which needs some detail. However, that doesn't fit into the character limit. Do you know which is the preferred way to communicate such additional info? I am sure I read a meta post or chat message about that some time ago, but can't find it again
13:14
Have you tried writing a blog and giving a link to that in your mod flag text? ;-)
13:27
@janw hmm, maybe create a secret gist on github?
@rene Good idea, I will do that. Thanks!
Make sure that without the link to the gist, a mod would still understand what you're flagging a post for.
So don't do See this gist: [link to gist]
Sure, I will describe the general issue and then point to the link for additional detail.
13:46
@janw great! I didn't want to risk working on your declined flags stats. I have trouble enough keeping my stats on par.
14:36
should this question be "no repro" or what? OP is surprised that Windows-only ctypes calls don't work on a Mac stackoverflow.com/questions/74677364/…
14:58
@janw I'd bet that both were
The profiles are a giveaway
@janw If it appears that a user has posted AI generated content without properly following the referencing requirements, meaning at least that the text copied from the AI is indicated as a quote in blockquote formatting and there is explicit attribution of the text, then please raise an "in need of moderator intervention" flag and explain.
Further, if there is a pattern of a user posting answers either without regard to the answer actually attempting to answer the question, or without regard to the answer being correct (at least to the level of a moderately naive user with some subject matter knowledge), then feel free to raise an "in need of moderator intervention" flag and explain the issue.
Using an AI to assist in generating answers is OK, but
⠀⠀A) The referencing requirements must be followed (the user does not have copyright over the text, so we need to know that), and
⠀⠀B) A similar level of care for quality needs to be applied by the person posting the content as we expect from answers fully generated by a human (e.g. the answer needs to actually address and attempt to answer the question and needs to be correct, at least to the level that would be reasonably evaluated by someone with a moderate level of subject matter knowledge).
Basically, just throwing a bunch of stuff up against the wall without regard to quality and waiting for other people to evaluate it to remove the portions which others see as bad is an overall failing strategy for the Stack Overflow site, because we just don't have enough people available who can and will identify and pull down all the crap.
2
Not to mention that someone tossing all that up is, fundamentally, placing a huge burden on other people to sort through "their" stuff and often sowing confusion on the part of people looking for answers, such as the OP.
Note: The above is my opinion. While I believe it's in line with consensus and policy, it's still a developing situation.
Wow, thanks! Indeed, I have been compiling evidence for that specific case over the last hour, and it really takes lots of effort to prove that this was indeed copied from ChatGPT.
I fully agree with your view on that subject.
It sometimes takes some subject matter expertise to determine. For the (many) profiles now posting multiple semi-reasonable looking answers in perfect English at very high frequency, I'm very tempted to flag but don't have the context of the subject to know whether the post actually makes good sense
@janw np. Yes, being certain is non-trivial, unless the user makes it easy, or at least doesn't try to hide it. For this, as with many things, we have to make choices based on balance of probabilities/preponderance of evidence.
@CertainPerformance Yes, the text produced by the AI is good enough to make determination hard and often requires subject matter expertise to really know about correctness, and sometimes just about if it's actually addressing the question. I consider the user posting large amounts of content faster than is reasonably possible for a human to generate as a strong indicator that the content is AI generated.
15:17
@CertainPerformance Absolutely. I wonder how we could possibly handle this. We would need to find an SME for every suspicious post.
@tripleee actually it lacks crucial debugging details
I have now submitted a flag for the case in point. Took me over an hour...
@janw Maybe it's time for a new community role: AI hunter
2
At least ChatGPT knows how we should deal with such answers: i.sstatic.net/PCW61.png
15:35
@janw Wow. I'm impressed.
@Makyen Unfortunately, I think "reasonably possible" is a very high bar. If someone is determined to answer everything they see and is knowledgeable enough in the subject to add a small paragraph or two as well, 5ish answers in an hour didn't used to be suspicious (though it does indicate that they should probably take more time to search for duplicates or consider whether the question will really be useful for future visitors).
Previously, the number of users knowledgeable and determined enough to do so was quite small. If someone doesn't want to be caught and doesn't go incredibly overboard in quantity, how to tell without being a SME?
I don't know if there's an answer
@CertainPerformance BRB - Off to get an AI to generate one.
15:52
Fortunately I think some of the suspects might have also done a little old-fashioned serial upvoting (possibly using an AI to upvote, who knows...) so it may not be necessary to prove they're using an AI to deal with those particular accounts
@CertainPerformance Most of the users I've been seeing are greedy and post long answers at 3 to 5 minute intervals, pushing the rate limits for answering.
There is, of course, a wide variance in how fast people can answer without using such tools. It is possible for a highly knowledgeable person to pump out many quick, short answers in very brief amounts of time. As the posts become longer and more involved, it's less and less likely, particularly if they do so repeatedly.
Overall, yes, it is difficult to know, based only on posting frequency (or even with a combination of factors). There isn't a really good answer to the problem.
OTOH, there are other indicators. For example, ChatGPT tends to use similar phrasing in a substantial portion of the answers which it generates. It's possible to identify some of those and search for them. Those are not, of course, a dead lock on identification, as the phrases are used by people normally, but the presence of those phrases is something which does contribute to identification.
AI use is a serious problem as it can pervert the "reward" system of SO so much as to shake the site to its foundation as has been seen with game cheats and MMO games and even grandmaster level chess for that matter. I don't know of any easy solution
... or to play the Devil's advocate, I can't even say if a solution is even needed. If the answers get so good, then what is the need for SO? Why come to this site where asking well-regarded questions is admittedly difficult, when one can simply ask an AI bot? Or to go even further, what need for programmers? Are we heading quickly to the singularity?
@Makyen How long do you think that will last? And people who use it to game the system will likely quickly realize this and evolve, alter the wording, somewhat akin to bacteria developing antibiotic resistance.
@HovercraftFullOfEels There will be a time when it is the case that AI can accurately provide an answer to most questions, but we're definitely not there, yet. When we get there, and access to such AIs is ubiquitous, then, yes, the value of a Q&A repository like SO will be much, much lower.
@DavidW Yes, there are definitely cases where there's also serial voting, but not all the time.
@HovercraftFullOfEels Unknown. The people that do such things tend to be at the lower end of knowledge/effort spectrum, so until the tools evolve, which they will, it's likely that there will still be such indicators.
16:26
Just took a random glimpse at the front page, and immediately found the next one. *facepalm*
Should comments saying does not work as of <insert date here> be flagged as NLN?
@Ethan I'd say "no" in most cases - because it's potentially useful to know something no longer applies
@DavidW Got it. Thanks
@Ethan No, generally not. IMHO they are rather useful as a quick indication that an answer is outdated
@janw I ended up deleting the post prior to sending a response to your flag, so (and I don't have to re-word-smith it down to 200 characters again): Thank you for the detailed information. That level of information definitely helps and may be needed in some cases. However, generating that level of detail, obviously, takes considerable time. For the specific situation you flagged and at this time, I would have been willing to act on much less information (and at least I am likely to act, at this time with the high prevalence of users posting such content, in other similar situations with less information than you provided). In other words, you probably don't need to put as much time and effort into developing evidence.
[I'm keeping it a bit nebulous so I don't expose more information than you've already shared here.]
16:44
@HovercraftFullOfEels I think by that time, the obsoletion of Stack Overflow will be a drop in the bucket. The eventual effects of AI on humanity could well outshine the effects of the industrial revolution. Whether they'll be positive or negative has yet to be seen. cold-takes.com/…
We have the dubious distinction of living in what may be the most important century in human history.
Interesting times™
@Makyen Alright, good to know! This has been my first encounter with such a situation, and I wasn't sure whether the entire moderator team is already aware, given that it is a rather new development. And, on a positive side, compiling that information helped me understand the red flags to look for, so it shouldn't take nearly as much effort next time. In the future I will leave it at a short description of the issue and only point out the main indicators. Thanks for the feedback! :-)
I think ChatGPT might actually be Clippy in disguise. It likes to start answers with the phrase "It looks like [you're writing a letter]"
@DavidW Yes, it definitely has some phases which it reuses many times.
@janw np. Thanks for the help. No, the whole mod team is not yet aware of the issue, but it's percolating through, as is normal for any dissemination of information. Frankly, it's something we're going to need time for to develop a unified response. However, IMO, the issue of people posting is something which is better to to try to nip as close to the bud as possible, rather than wait for more time to pass (and lots more posts) in order to make sure we're all completely on the same page. It helps significantly that an MSO post, "Is it acceptable to post answers generated by an AI, such as GitHub Copilot?", already exists and effectively covers at least a portion of why the vast majority of such posts are unacceptable. However, I expect that an additional one would be beneficial.
 
1 hour later…
18:30
I wonder whether it would be easier to create a (private?) chat room where we coordinate and can collect these cases, and discuss unclear ones. This would also allow to show those to an SME, if there is one. Similar to the Bad Reviews chat room.
@janw I know mods do (The Teachers lounge for all mods in SE) and chances are the the mods here on SO made a room for them to use for this stuff
18:42
@Makyen I just flagged another AI generated answer. The starting and ending phrase is dead giveaway.
I have another few suspects, but can't go through all of them at this moment (want to be sure before mod flagging). However, this would clearly be user targeting, so not really appropriate for this room
18:56
@tink I disagree with the close reason - they ask with which method/property they can hide their JS Electron application from the task bar, so it certainly is about programming. But I'm not familiar enough with the technology to tell whether that is an answerable question or whether another close reason would be appropriate.
But I would lean to on-topic here. Maybe the question could use an example to reproduce, but I don't know how complex that would be
19:16
@janw Hiding something from a taskbar to me sounds like an OS-related problem, despite all the mention of js & frameworks ... maybe I don't understand it well enough, either, that would then make the close reason a Needs detail/clarity.
@tink That's fair. At least they would need to specify which desktop environment they are targeting, as those may behave differently
AI Domination a private room to discuss the inappropriate automatically-generated content. If you want to participate, feel free to request access by clicking on the link and then the "request access" button.
3
@Makyen weird I was automatically give write access when I clicked the link. Did you make an invite link or something?
Yes, but I got tired of copying and pasting user IDs/user URLs.
@Makyen I don't think you will be able to nip it in the bud. It is already a jungle out there.
19:29
@Makyen well, you asked for it, right? ;)
@rene Yep, I did.
@DalijaPrasnikar We must establish some reasonable rules. If we don't then the content on SO will slide substantially down the quality scale, which, ultimately, significantly reduces the overall value of SO.
Agreed. I am just telling you what I am seeing. Basically every second user is posting AI generated answers.
I suspect there's an element of "let's play with the shiny new toy" (possibly being promoted somewhere off-site). It won't go away, but I'd suspect the novelty will wear off a little
20:00
@DalijaPrasnikar Yep, it's at least hundreds of posts, just today.
I am seeing new users and even old users that suddenly have huge amount of answers. I also flagged one question that had bounty attached and it seems like all answerers have unusual activity.
@DavidW Yes, I suspect that too, including that it won't go away and that at least some people will continue to try to post them plain as if they wrote it themselves, regardless of what we do. OTOH, we can establish some guidelines such that a large portion of people are at least clearly identifying the source and, hopefully, not just spraying everything onto the site with no regard to if it's correct, or if it even really addresses the question.
@DalijaPrasnikar Yep, there are a lot. Please flag them when you see patterns and/or discuss it in the AI Domination room.
20:15
Will do
@janw :)
20:41
it is inaccurate but in very subtle ways, and in fact it got two upvotes
 
1 hour later…
21:53
@Makyen "just just spraying" was this supposed to say "not just spraying"? was reading and went "huh?" here
@starball Yes, thanks. Fixed.
22:07
@mickmackusa Yeah, this looks like a question in need of deletion
22:30
@HovercraftFullOfEels @Makyen has been closed and reopened, request can be binned.
@bad_coder: it's a strange question actually, and it should again be closed as needs debugging detail or cannot repo. The OP self-answered it basically stating that something in code not shown was wrong. Shaking my head.
@HovercraftFullOfEels CV cast :)
@sideshowbarker funny, now if I open the inbox to the message I see the username but not the diamond. It's probably some caching issue with the chat server since you've gained the diamond recently.
@sideshowbarker now I see 2 diamonds and the username :|
@DanielWiddis by all means, you go way too long without a pniging me :)
@bad_coder probably the extra diamond is a fallback for another caching regression that causes the first diamond to disappear sometimes 😆
22:49
@bad_coder If you're talking about seeing diamonds in the transcript pages, diamonds and RO status are not shown in the transcript pages using the stock interface.
@Makyen that explains it!!
@bad_coder Seeing two diamonds is probably an artifact of the URRS. There's and option setting to enable/disable the one which it adds. However, I thought that was updated to replace the diamond which SE added (as it also fixes some of the display issues which way SE is no using to display diamonds has. OTOH, it displays the diamonds on the left, rather than right. You may want to verify you're using the most recent version and/or adjust the URRS' options.
@Makyen FYI, this is what I'm seeing and it seems the userscripts are up to date.
23:13
@sideshowbarker I think it's focused because the question itself is 1 sentence (the one with the question mark). Plus 3 sentences for context, and 1 sentence with an hypothesis. The webauthntag only has 250 Qs, my general rule of thumb closing/burninating is to be waaayy more permissive with small tags and much more strict with large tags. Someone might be searching for a niche/corner case (or something speculative) and letting a tag gain traction is the best way to cover those cases.
23:27
Can we PLEASE institute a higher quality bar for answer than merely linking to the documentation and quoting from it??? stackoverflow.com/a/74681424/2943403 I find these low-generosity posts very irritating. I'd like all doc-link-only answers (no actual implementation of the advice) to be moved to comments under the question. Then when people realize that these posts don't earn rep, they'll start being more generous.
@mickmackusa That answer is a quote of another answer on the same question.
@Joundill Yes, I see that now.
Sweet :)
Please redirect my irritation to the answer being critiqued.
To be fair, the answer he supplies is just wrong.
OP is asking about filter_input, so filter_input_array is the correct function to use.
The way I see it, if I was looking for an answer to a question similar to the OP's question, I would find both 2015 answers useful. The one from today would confuse me and potentially send me down the wrong path.
Even though the docs-referencing answer only contains an abstract description of the options.

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