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user4717133
12:02 AM
@KevinB but that is not correct, my scenario is much more complex really, it would be a bad idea to implement my solution in a more basic scenario that can be handled with aliases; It seems to me that the correct thing would be.
 
user4717133
leave my post intact, add my solution to it and mark it as a solution within my context; and publish in the duplicate post a solution that makes a mention of my publication as an alternative method for complex scenarios where aliases cannot be implemented ... I recognize that it is more laborious for me even but it seems to me that it must be the way.
 
12:14 AM
I just noticed that I have 777 posts edited as of today. I feel like that should grant me moderator privileges or something.
 
@EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica Nope. Only 666 grants privileges, but the cost, oh the cost
2
 
isn't your scenario effectively, the same, only it's hundreds of columns rather than 5?
There's several answers that attempt to address that problem on the dupe target
Clearly people are going there with the same problem you have and not finding a solution, adding your solution there will serve those users
 
user4717133
@KevinB The original question in the duplicate post only requires 5 colliding columns and can be solved with aliases. they do not require my answer which tries to misrepresent a scenario where aliases cannot be easily implemented; I even think that implementing aliases in my scenario would have a higher resource cost for mysql and php ...
 
right
i understand that
 
user4717133
@KevinB I can not explain this in goal and that it has a good reception, I do not understand why they have embraced the idea that if there is a solution for something, it should be implemented in all places that are similar and close / mark publications when the context causes that the answers are not viable.
 
12:23 AM
Your question in it's current state is not clear
 
@Arcanis-TheOmnipotent Why can't you add an answer that says "if you have a lot of columns and don't want to use aliases, do..."?
 
step one, if you want your question reopened, will be moving it back to revision 4
so, i guess what I'm trying to figure out is why is it so important that your question gets reopened, rather than sharing your answer on the other question?
What is the benefit
your answer will get more views on the dupe target, it'll help more people, you'll likely earn more rep,
 
user4717133
@RyanM why is the OP not asking that. If I have learned something, it is that users expect a response as close to their scenarios ... not that someone in the community says delete everything I have implemented an ORM like laravel XD
 
Part of the point of allowing multiple answers is that there are sometimes multiple solutions depending on the exact scenario.
 
user4717133
@KevinB I do not obtain any benefit even since the question is flooded in negative votes, as well as in goal: but I believe that it would be the correct and fair thing for me and for the community; If in the future a version of mysql offers a solution for my scenario in a native way, how do I ask for a method that adds a table prefix to the returned columns? That answer should go in my publication to be organized but since it is closed, nothing can be done ...
 
12:30 AM
a new quesiton could be asked with those new requirements
 
user4717133
@RyanM right
 
user4717133
@KevinB my original question was about the requirement, sadly nothing exists natively in mysql today.
 
@Arcanis-TheOmnipotent Then edit your question to ask that. You've already got an answer for the current MySQL version.
 
if such a new feature arrives, an answer on the dupe target presenting it would be a good answer for that question
just as your answer is
 
user4717133
ok so this is recommended: go back to version 4 and add more context in meta about why my post should not be closed as a duplicate.
 
12:37 AM
i dont think editing the meta post will benefit anything
who knows, maybe
i don't know how i'd reword your question in this case
i'm probably the wron gperson to ask anyway, since i think the best way forward is to leave it closed, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
if i'm being honest
 
user4717133
@KevinB :(
 
@Tomerikoo Also a typo in its core and a duplicate
 
i think the thing i'd focus on is keeping the question simple.
 
user4717133
ok
 
user4717133
i have updatd the question
 
user4717133
12:44 AM
rolback to v4
 
user4717133
and hav updated the META POST
 
Oh, hey. it's a mod.
 
2:08 AM
 
2:22 AM
@mickmackusa If that's a plagiarized answer, that deserves a mod flag (regardless of whether we delete it or not).
 
@cigien shall I flag both answers then?
 
@mickmackusa It depends. If they're related, then one flag is preferable, so you can explain the connection, and it'll get handled by the same mod. If they're unrelated instances, then separate flags is better.
 
 
2 hours later…
 
2 hours later…
6:46 AM
 
 
1 hour later…
7:50 AM
@Vickel i do, but i heard about answer ban too. How avoid it also? For example, some "one day" users made a question, took the answer and ran away from here. An "answerer" stays with zero point answer etc.
 
8:03 AM
@manro I'm pretty sure you can't get post-banned from only zero-point posts. They have to actually be negative, I think.
 
I think zero-point posts just don't count as positive contributions.
 
8:45 AM
@FivePlyPaper format like this: [title](URL)
 
 
1 hour later…
Hmm, how was this Q deleted by Community (10k+ link)? The question is spam, I've flagged it as such. I'm just curious how it was deleted after, what seems like, 3 spam flags.
Ah, now I see that the user is nuked. That's probably how it happened - the whole user was destroyed with their content.
 
@VLAZ There was a mod intervention
 
I like mod interventions.
 
Yeah, I just didn't see a mod name on the delete notice. And the question disappeared before the user did. With a missing user it's more clear.
 
If mods cast spam/abusive flags, they aren't shown on the post notice as being involved. It's shown as deleted by Community, just like any other spam/abusive deletion.
The trick is that mod spam/abusive flags instantly reach the threshold to take effect. That's why it happened here after only 3 flags. The mod flag (mine) was the third, and it took effect immediately. No need to wait for 6 total flags.
The question always disappears before the user. You nuke the question, then you nuke the user. Order of operations. :-)
(This has been another mod intervention.)
 
10:12 AM
@CodyGray Ah, gotcha. I thought that the deletion would have been attributed to the diamond, if it was due to their action. I see that I've been living a lie. Or rather, I didn't realise it didn't apply to spam flags.
 
If a diamond deletes, then, yes, that deletion will be attributed to them. But I didn't delete that; I spam/abusive-flagged it. Which causes Community to delete it.
It gets confusing because, well, I guess because diamonds can do anything. For example, there could be pending spam/abusive flag(s), and a diamond could choose to delete the post. This would mark the pending spam/abusive flag(s) as "helpful", but it would show the diamond as the deleter, because, we were. We didn't spam/abusive-flag-delete it, we just normal-deleted it.
 
@Steve this answer is not deletable
 
Deleting an accepted answer requires moderator intervention. While I'm willing to consider doing that if the poster of the answer requests it, I'm not going to do it just because you say it is wrong/obsolete/whatever.
 
@Steve you could possibly flag it for moderation attention, but posting a del-pls request here makes no sense
 
10:29 AM
 
10:56 AM
Is this post flag-worthy?
 
@JeanneDark Three users thought so. It seems to possess that "not an answer" character, would you not agree?
 
@CodyGray I agree it's NAA. Just because of the comment.
 
Have I ever mentioned how much I dislike when people (or bots) leave comments on non-answers?
 
@CodyGray I guess so. I plead guilty to doing that sometimes. That's when it's maybe not totally obvious that they are asking about another post (answer, sometimes even comment) and then I comment also linking to the post to make it clear to future reviewers.
 
Meh
I guess that's nice of you.
Reminds me of the guy who sees dog poop on the hiking trail and decides to put up a sign that says "Warning! Dog poop here."
 
12:00 PM
Morning
 
Gasp! A Haskell question? Surely, this must be an SOCVR audit!
3
 
@CodyGray It's also tagged . We can just say that the Haskell part of it is fine.
 
12:30 PM
@VLAZ Ive never heard about SO Clojure Vote Reviewers. Tell me more
 
@Machavity :D
 
Can I get someone to take a look at this post? The answers are suspiciously similar, but the community wiki answer was from a month ago and the accepted answer was from 2 hours ago.
 
@Calculuswhiz Hmm...
 
@Calculuswhiz If you suspect voting fraud based on the quality of the answers and the voting and reputation gains by involved users, you can raise a custom flag and describe it.
 
12:45 PM
If I want some user monitored for potential spam, do I just pop into Charcoal HQ and drop a message with a link to the user and my concerns? Or is there another way to report the user? Note: right now I'm not sure a mod flag is warranted.
 
@Calculuswhiz It looks like this user is plagiarising content to gain reputation. It is suspicious who upvotes it, so you should definitely flag this, if not for plagiarism, then for voting fraud.
 
Thanks, everyone. Already working on the flag message.
 
1:16 PM
Oh I love it when sock-puppets post comments like this "nice post, good quality"
... and then proceed to provide a wrong answer anyway
 
It seems there is a bug on posts' score?
 
what bug?
 
It's positive?
 
Sorry, I had it on 3 different pages. No it's gone
 
Are you looking at the recent voting fraud?
 
It was showing1 more than it was. Even on the user's profile page
When clicked on the details it was going back to the real. I will try to reproduce
 
I can give you some posts where you can reproduce it, but it's not a bug
it's by design
 
It's also possible (but improbable) that an invalidation has recently occurred as well. That could create screwy vote totals for a bit until cache catches up
 
Here and here. It is also wrong on the user's page
 
1:29 PM
@Dharman I think we're looking at the same user. Have you already raised a flag already?
 
and more
how are you looking at the same posts as me?
 
@Dharman Yes
 
@Vega Yes, that looks correct
 
What is the reason for being by design?
 
when accounts are deleted, it deletes all votes cast by that user. The scores are calculated each time someone presses up/down vote, or at midnight each day
 
1:32 PM
@SurajRao Yep
 
so when an account is deleted, then the score remains the same for some time until recalc happens
 
@Dharman Oh, so it is related to the fraud. Thank you for the explanation
 
not necessarily, people delete accounts sometimes
 
Yes, of course
 
Hmm. Roomba ate my +4 scored answer. Bad Bot!
 
1:42 PM
How's that possible?
 
The metaphysical chains restraining it since the dawn of time have cracked, and it has broken free.
@AdrianMole was it at least 3 months old, I hope?
 
@TylerH No - just a few days. But maybe it wasn't Roomba (parent Q deleted by Community Bot). Possibly, the account was deleted for some other reason, and the Q (and my answer) went with it.
 
link?
 
@TylerH link
 
@AdrianMole The account was probably destroyed. Roomba usually doesn't touch posts with positively scored answers.
 
1:49 PM
Not the world's best question, I admit. And closed by vote. (Wrongly, IMHO, but that's off-limits for this room...)
 
Yeah, looks like an account destruction to me
However, that runs afoul of this change from 3 years ago: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/199860/…
oh, actually no I see the additional set is an OR
so because it was closed at the time of destruction, that qualifies it, even if there were positively scored answers
 
@Dharman I'm not sure if that was addressed to me, but in case it was, the user's answer popped up in my low-quality review queue. I thought the upvotes were suspicious, so I clicked the user.
 
@TylerH But, as Shog said: ...But the indiscriminate deletion ends up hurting folks who have participated in good faith, have had their work recognized already, and worst of all have little visibility into or ability to influence the process that leads to deletion. Heck, we don't allow askers to explicitly delete their questions if there's an upvoted answer, so why allow them to do so implicitly by deleting their account?
Heck: I feel hurted.
 
Sure, I agree :-) Though it'll be hard to raise him on the phone about it and get him to make a change given he's not at SO anymore :-P
 
1:56 PM
@AdrianMole See point 13 in the FAQ answer I linked to. It's when a troll's or spammer's account is destroyed.
 
@JeanneDark Heh - I answered a troll question. Is there a badge for that?
 
@AdrianMole The "Gullible" badge maybe? ;)
 
Ouch!
 
2:16 PM
@EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica Someone even upvoted that answer
 
I think we should post a meta asking for comments when upvoting to be mandatory
 
Are "why the upvotes?" or "upvoters, please comment!" type comments valid?
 
I sometimes really wish to post such comments when I see what posts are upvoted.
 
@Tomerikoo It already exists but was unfortunately closed: Force members to leave comments when they upvote
 
@EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica We delete those by the boatload for downvotes. So... not really
 
2:30 PM
@Machavity Totally joking :)
 
@CodyGray Nitpicking: It's not the fact that it's accepted that requires moderator intervention. It's that the post has a positive score. If the answer has a negative score, then it can be delete-voted by >20k users or deleted from review, regardless of it being accepted, or not. IIRC, in review, users can also delete score=0 answers without mod intervention. Mod intervention is required if score > 0.
@JeanneDark The user was deleted, not destroyed.
 
Ok, thanks
 
@AdrianMole I've undeleted this, as it appear useful. Another time, you're welcome to raise an "in need of moderator intervention" flag and request the question be undeleted.
 
@Makyen OK. And thanks. Wasn't sure if such a flag would be appropriate - end even raising the issue in here was a bit risky.
 
@Makyen How did the question get deleted automatically then?
 
2:42 PM
Presumably, when the account was destroyed (as a troll).
 
@AdrianMole But Makyen just said it was not destroyed but deleted.
 
Oh dear. I'm losing the ability to read... maybe I should nominate?
 
@Dharman At the time the user was deleted, the question was in the closed state. It was reopened while it was deleted. If the question is closed, then the score of the answers is not considered. Please see: answer to: "A question should not be deleted by the user deletion algorithm if it has upvoted answers".
 
@KevinB Yeah. I think it makes sense that we'd consider updating the tooltips on the question voting. I don't know to what but I think that we need to help people understand that questions don't need to be useful to you - the person reading the question... but finding a concise way to explain it is where it gets hairy... and you have to find a way to explain it that's objective since voting is so subjective.
 
Ok, I didn't check timeline
 
3:08 PM
@Catija That would be hard, because the only reason why people vote is because what they believe. Trying to figure out if it's useful to someone else is a tall task. I can barely somehow find something useful to me :D
 
@Braiam Right, and that's why "useful" is a terrible directive.
 
@Catija Well, I can evaluate that objectively. I doubt there would be anything that can be done that way.
 
Right - but... you're not everyone. The average person will read "not useful" and add "to me" on the end... and that causes problems because people are closing and downvoting questions that are useful additions to the Q&A here on SO because they don't think they're useful because it's info they already know or know how to find.
 
@Catija Well, obviously. Because that's the limit of what I can evaluate. Is this post useful to me, well researched according to me or clear to me. I can't evaluate if it's clear to someone else, well researched according to someone else or useful to someone else. I don't know any human capable of answering those questions for someone else.
Because those are, well, opinions.
 
3:18 PM
@Makyen My ears are burning :-P Just had a mod flag declined on a link-only, positively-scored accepted answer :-(
 
Informed opinions, maybe, but opinions nonetheless.
 
@Catija you'd have to move away from 'useful' entirely if you want to get to objectivity, I think. And that may always be a bridge too far for voting on Stack Exchange sites.
 
@Braiam I would disagree. I spent a lot of time on ELL and almost none of those questions are useful to me because I'm a native English speaker - But I'm able to say "I can understand how an English learner would find this of value" and vote on it... Saying that you can't judge usefulness to someone else kinda confuses me, I guess.
 
I can certainly think of questions that, for various reasons, shouldn't be useful to others. like, someone asking how to do X with absurd requirements that you should never actually be bound by. but then you have interviewers creating "tests" for interviewees with absurd requirements. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Everybody wants to run their candidates through the Kobayashi Maru
 
3:28 PM
particularly in languages like javascript where there's a TON of old outdated features that only still exist for backwards compatibility but should never be used in modern code
 
Well we do still have the too localized reason somewhat: 'resolved in a way unlikely to be useful to future readers'
Kinda implies a solution/resolution has to be provided first, though
 
@TylerH Ugh, had such an interview. Basically I was asked "Client wants you to do X in half the time it would take. What do you do?" and I insisted that I should consult with management and offer some sort of compromise like shipping X in parts or similar. But anything I suggested was met by "But the client doesn't want that. What else would you do?"
 
clearly, work on your off time without pay until the job is done
 
The interviewer admitted there wasn't a specific answer. But was surprised I didn't suggest cutting out the testing.
 
@VLAZ Tell the client it will take the amount of time it will take and I'm happy to provide as much of the results as possible at any point in time they wish to cap their pay at
@VLAZ red flag
If a workplace is used to cutting corners so much to fit customer demands rather than having earnest conversations with them about expectations, to the point where they are expecting candidates to suggest that kind of behavior, I would get up and leave the interview
Or at least I hope I would. Never had that kind of encounter before, thankfully
 
3:34 PM
yeah, i mean, what if it's to go work somewhere you're very excited about being a part of,
answer the question the way you'd hope they handle such a situation
if that's not good enough... maybe they aren't good enough for you
 
@TylerH I didn't take the job. I found the whole initial question a red flag because it meant that I was expected to be grilled by clients directly about delivering stuff. Another red flag was that the interviewers directly said that they had two people start and then quit due to burnout on the position I was interviewing for. That was about midway through the interview. I made up my mind then but humoured their questions. It's a bit rude to just up and leave.
 
@KevinB "What do you mean the answer you were looking for was "don't do a test launch, and just remove that test from the simulation?" Well, thank you, but maybe Boeing's space division isn't the place for me"
@VLAZ Ah yeah if you're not in a front-facing/lead role then yeah having to interface directly with customers would also be bad
 
so far the only real interview i've had, they were extremely professional and positive, to the point they made me more confident in my abilities and feel good about myself
i ended up not taking the job
 
I have seen a fair few places where there isn't a sales person who acts as an intermediary, and I really like it because, y'know, sales...
but it relies on the ability of someone in the dev team having good interpersonal chops
I think a technical lead should always be sitting in on any calls with salespeople though, no matter what
 
that was to linked-in... probably 7-8 years ago
 
3:39 PM
because otherwise you get salespeople doing salespeople things, like promising impossible things
 
Had a friend who had huge issue with sales. Actually, who hasn't? Well, his were a bit worse. He'd get sales people coming directly to him (and other developers) and going "We need feature X in two weeks" or something.
 
@KevinB oh thank god you didn't work for them
 
yea
that was before they were bought
 
He finally just started telling them that it would take a month. Said it helped - sales started avoiding him and bothering other people. A small win, at least.
 
what killed it for me was location... it was in california and i didn't want to be so far away
 
3:40 PM
East Coast is best Coast
 
east coast is a bit far too, from mississippi
 
I'm sorry
The armpit of america, I think JS chat used to like to say
 
@Catija Well, I'm not a native speaker, and even then I can only say what it has been useful for me, because I had the same question or the answer solved my doubt. I can't say what questions someone else will have, or which answer explains in a way that they understand and solves their query.
 
of course it was mostly rlemon saying that, probably, and he doesn't count
 
i effectively want to be within 12 hours of here
 
3:43 PM
family?
 
yea
mississippi/louisiana
more louisiana
 
makes sense. Well Atlanta is about 12 hours away (or less) from everywhere :-)
 
In other words, I don't tell people what should be useful for them, because I'm bound to fail at that.
If you show me a question or answer from ELL, I would tell you if it was useful for me or not, yet I will not force you to upvote or downvote that post, and I don't want you to.
 
@Braiam And that's fine... but even thinking of it from that direction, that's only a reason to upvote. "This was useful to me" seems like an OK (if subjective) reason to upvote. But "This was not useful to me" doesn't make sense as a reason to downvote. At best it seems a reason to not upvote. It's easy to forget that there's three states.
 
what would be a reason to downvote
ideally
 
3:46 PM
Same as a close reason? This is off-topic or needs more information to answer?
I personally downvote for questions that are simple/easy to answer and don't show any effort to have done so. Won't necessarily close vote (trivial is OK as long as it isn't a dupe, after all)
 
questions can't really be... "wrong", or incorrect, they could certainly make incorrect assumptions or take wrong paths towards their intended solution, but those are things for answers to figure out.
 
That's... a good question. And I've been thinking about it a lot. For me, it kinda ends up coming down to things that are feel a lot more objective - "This is incomprehensible" or "This is completely out of scope" - To be honest, I'm not a huge fan of downvoting stuff that's close worthy... and, to be fair, I've contemplated whether removing manual DVs from questions (only!) would be terrible.
 
@Catija that would absolutely be terrible
 
my votes are more... in the outcome of the post.
if i think a post should eventually end up deleted, downvote is the tool
 
@TylerH Help me understand.
 
3:49 PM
@Catija I'm assuming you mean removing the ability of someone to choose to downvote by itself (e.g. not necessarily have it tied to some other action like comment, close vote, etc.)
 
*on questions
 
yes
 
@KevinB Sure. That makes sense. Spam - DV. Rude - DV. not about [site subject] - DV.
The first two, the system does for you.
 
Downvoting is used as a signal. If we can't downvote, we can't signal "this is a bad question". Downvoting is also used to hide questions from the front page. Downvoting also affects users' reputation. There is less incentive to make sure you are asking a good question if you are completely insulated from reputation loss so long as your question is vaguely about programming
Downvoting can also be a tool to remove a question as a review queue audit
 
@TylerH I don't know. I'm still thinking - and to be clear, this is just me thinking in my head - it's not necessarily ever going to happen. The idea is more a thought experiment to understand what value downvotes on questions serve.
 
3:52 PM
I wish we could get it through the heads of some folks that you don't need to make snarky comments either. If it needs closing, just vote to close. Don't make snide remarks about the level of education of the poster or demand they use a search engine first
3
 
I would rather see downvoting questions cost the downvoter 1 rep than see my ability to downvote by itself removed altogether, I think. Not 100% behind that position forever, necessarily, but I think I prefer it that way currently based on my own thoughts
 
@Catija To me, it signals these questions aren't fit for SO for one reason or another. Ideally, they shouldn't be answered, either. With that said, many people have many different opinions on what either one reason would be or another or both. I'm talking about the general intent, even if how people judge what fits in it differ.
 
@Machavity I wish SO staff had more bandwidth (and interest?) in long-term Charcoal-style efforts for actual useful reasons. Take the "unfriendly comments" survey from a couple years ago. It could have been the start of a permanent heuristic comment detection bot (like SmokeDetector or something).
monitor enough comments and gather enough data on what abusive comments look like, and eventually you're gonna have a bot that can safely delete abusive comments automatically (or block them from being posted)
Instead the effort was just used to say "SO is not friendly" in a blog post or something
 
@TylerH We actually do have a comment bot, tho. Dev created and everything
 
@Machavity Well yes I know but it's not anything like the scope of SD
or its data set size
 
3:57 PM
@TylerH This is kinda why I think there's got to be better onboarding... the thing is, it's really hard to recover from downvotes on a question - the chance that the question will ever be fixed and upvoted is low... even if it's fixed, if you don't know the back channels, the chance it will be reopened and upvoted is... minimal. And it's kinda really hard to feel like you can recover from that - but a lot of that is our fault - we suck at helping people understand how to succeed.
 
@Machavity I think a big problem around these comments is that there is no visibility on them being considered bad. If users see such comments being posted by others, they'd assume it's fine. They cannot see the removed comments. So, it's hard to make it known that they are not OK. It requires individual approach each time. Compare with closed questions - it's easier to find them and get an idea of what's on-topic and what isn't.
 
Such a thing could be a self-correcting process, too, because folks who want to post comments that get blocked could ask on Meta "why can't I post this comment", and good ones can be manually added by devs or mods to a "known good" table
 
It's not as smart as SD, but that's probably because it's not an open project like SD. I know some of the reasons it will flag, but not all
 
Not sure what the problem with downvotes is supposed to be. The only people I see complaining are those who want to flood SO with low quality contributions.
 
@Machavity Yeah. Honestly, there's times where I kinda wish we did have a comment only suspension. Or the ability to say "you suck at comments, no can has".
 
3:58 PM
@Catija I agree, which is why I think the 'hide score below -1 experiment' was an excellent idea and, personally, a smashing success. Not sure why so many people thought it was a failure
@Catija That'd be great, too
Honestly, mod tooling is a big area ripe for improvement
not like it's a secret to anyone, staff or community-wise, though
 
@VLAZ Yeah, there's a fine line there. When you get a comment autoflag on a user, do you mod message for just a handful of comments that are irritating users, or do you let it slide and just move on to more serious problems?
 
@TylerH Because if the actual score was -8 and you got an upvote, you'd be really confused why your score wasn't now 0. It's really, really confusing for people. If the actual score was capped at -1 (which would be bad, I think?) that'd be different but if it's only visual, it's really just kinda ... not OK.
 
Ideally mods could suspend for any atomic action on the site. Asking, answering, commenting, an individual review queue, etc.
 
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