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12:18 AM
Please remove my [del-pls] [php] request Room Owner; it is in violation of room rules.
 
1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null, by request
 
 
1 hour later…
 
1 hour later…
user10957435
3:16 AM
@Makyen Okay. Thanks. I had in my mind that spam = promotional links. I'll keep that in mind from now on.
 
 
3 hours later…
6:13 AM
I think I commented on this java question that it had to be self-contained. My comment seems to be gone. Did I miss something and this post is really fine?
 
@Scratte Nah, that should definitely be closed.
 
@MikeM. OK. Thanks. I can only wonder why my comment is gone then :)
 
@Scratte A moderator deleted it in response to an automatic "unfriendly" flag on it. I...have no idea why. It wasn't unfriendly, and it certainly wasn't obsolete.
 
@CodyGray Super :) I have "unfriendly or unkind" marked comments.. I guess I probably have some rude ones too then.
 
You and me both, probably. The bot has a very high false-positive incidence.
 
6:28 AM
So that may be the new project discussed on meta? If so, perhaps they should be made aware of it.
I've had quite a few comments removed recently. They all puzzled me.
 
It's relatively new, but it's been running for a while now. Yes, it has been discussed on Meta. Yes, I and several other moderators have told the team that it has a very high incidence of false positives. They point us back to numbers that say, I don't know, 97% of its flags were indulged.
This is due to a number of factors, including the comments being obsolete (but not rude) and thus deleting by a mod, which automatically marks the flag as correct.
Another common occurrence is mods going through comment flags on auto-pilot, deleting just about everything. That really irritates me, but I'm in the minority.
 
Nice, so if a flag is indulged, it must be right?
 
The way the system works for all comment flags (whether raised by a bot or a human) is, if the comment is deleted, then the flag is marked "helpful". The bot interprets this as "correct".
 
I'm almost ready to make an appearance on meta..
 
The corollary is, if a mod declines to delete a comment, then your flag on that comment is marked as "declined". This is the source of much angst on Meta for people who flag comments for reasons other than "this comment needs to be deleted".
There is a workaround: decline the flag, and then delete the comment. This avoids giving the bot the wrong feedback. But it's extra steps. (Unless you have Sam's userscript installed, which not everyone does all the time.)
 
6:32 AM
But the bot doesn't have feelings. So it doesn't care about declined..
 
Of course. Neither do I. The point is that it interprets "declined" flags as "incorrect" and presumably adapts its machine-learning-based...stuff.
 
..Ok, so now what? I post another comment on the same post? Take a screenshot and see what happens?
 
Haha. That isn't going to prove anything.
The only thing that'll prove is whether a mod went through the hundreds of "unfriendly" auto-comment-flags that we get without paying very much attention...
 
Ahh.. yes, and moderators do not review-banned :)
 
To be entirely fair, your comment didn't really convey any information, which I recently explained was the only real reason not to delete a comment.
@Scratte Uh, yeah, we can be review-banned. If we use /review. The moderator flag queue is not /review; it is completely separate. (Of course, if we are review-banned on /review, we can also unban ourselves.)
 
6:39 AM
I can't remember the comment exactly, but since I don't have the "Not a Robot" badge, I'm inclined to go with my auto-thought, and I'm guessing I wrote "Your Question needs to be self-contained. Please read How to Ask" If that is what I wrote, then it would convey information to the author. Not information that old-timer didn't know already, but information that new users did not gain.. yet.
 
> Your Question needs to be self-contained. Also, please see How do I ask a good question?
 
Ahh.. that is what I thought I wrote :)
 
So...yes. Problem is, most people who don't know how to write a good question also don't know what "self-contained" means. They definitely don't know what it means with respect to their question.
Also, we force everyone to read How to Ask before asking anyway, so obviously the information on that page didn't help them much.
 
the [ask] here was a short-cut to the wrong link.
 
Finally, the close banner already includes a description of what they should do, which makes comments that regurgitate it pretty pointless.
 
6:43 AM
I had no idea that some people do not understand that self-contain means. I can't remember if that's included in the help-page
 
They fail to make the connection between "self-contained" and "You need to include all of the necessary code directly in the question itself, in text format. A link is not sufficient."
I cannot explain why. The connection is obvious to me, perhaps even more so than it is to you. But evidence suggests that we are in the minority.
 
I will steal that quote then :)
 
It is provided with no guarantees or warranties. I have very little success in getting people to fix their questions, regardless of what or how many comments I post.
Never use comments as substitutes for close votes.
 
@CodyGray I have to.. I don't have close vote :D
 
/s/votes/flags
Maybe we should add that to the room description.
 
6:46 AM
I hope I do not have to give attribution to you for using your comment, as that will really bloat my comments :D
 
Thanks to flags, everyone can take part in the fun!
@Scratte No...
Leaving bloated comments is enough homage to me. :-)
 
I'm quite confident that I did flag that post. I pretty sure I also didn't bother to go to the link.
 
Yeah, you flagged it. My closure marked it as helpful. You're welcome. :-p
I never bother to go to links. I have no idea if the link has the necessary information or not. I don't care. There's nothing I can do about it, even if it did and I wanted to. Copy-pasting content like that involves relicensing, which we can't do. Only the OP can relicense their content under our license.
 
@CodyGray Yay!.. one more down to the 5263 needed for the green medal :)
 
There are medals awarded?
Why don't you just earn 2.5k more rep?
 
6:51 AM
@CodyGray Only by Samuel :)
I don't have time for reputation. I'm doing the First Post queue
 
Surely that takes as much time as gaining reputation?
 
It takes the same amount of time for me. I always check, then re-check, re-compile.. write, then re-write.. check again.. then post my answer. Find typos when re-reading, fix them as fast as I can. Bang my head against a door for not checking enough before posting. Realizing I could have caught another typo if I hadn't spent time banging my head. Then contemplating if I should fix them or leave them be.
 
Interesting. I almost never compile code when answering questions. Over half of the time, I just type the code snippets directly into the editor here.
Only if it's something that I don't already know the answer to and need to figure out will I fire up an editor/compiler/whatever and actually test.
 
Some have perfect memory and/or a compiler in their head. I'm not one of those. I often need to fix a syntax error. Some silly () that I forgot somewhere.
 
I don't guarantee the lack of syntax errors. But I feel like it's fair to leave those as an exercise for future editors. :-)
 
7:00 AM
Well.. I don't want a comment on my post saying "It doesn't even compile".
About the 2,5K more rep.. what happens at 4K?
 
@Scratte "It isn't even meant to."
@Scratte Maybe I will get better at math? Only thing you can do is try it and see, I guess.
 
Ahh.. You meant 1,5K. I do math better than humans :)
 
See, the task was just made even easier
Now you have no excuses.
 
Sorry, I will still leave code answers that compiles. That includes all the includes and can be copy'n'pasted directly to compile and run. First, because it really annoys me when other's code do not do that. Especially when I check their answers in the queue. Second, I just like complete, I guess.
 
Pro tip: write all of your answers in assembly. No includes needed, and no compiler, either.
 
7:07 AM
I do not think that will go down well on [sql] or [java] :)
 
Java has an IL
But I guess no one writes in it
Some day I should learn SQL.
But that is not a day I especially look forward to.
 
IL?
SQL is easy.. it's just like English. Ok, it's easier than English.
 
Intermediate language. An assembly-language-like bytecode that is generated by the Java front-end compiler and used for "binaries". That bytecode is then transformed into machine code by the JIT compiler.
 
People do write bytecode or change bytecode. It's especially useful when trying to hack a system.
 
Surely that has nothing to do with hacking. It's the same thing you would get from a Java compiler.
 
7:19 AM
I'm sure it has it's uses outside hacking. And it's not all that necessary anymore, since there are tools on github that will generate the hacking bytecode now.
Well.. yes and no. It takes a little more perfection to get the bytecode just right, than it does to just compile.
 
@tink "what he said" comments aren't useful. Please don't bother. Also, what is OBS Studio? Is that not "a tool primarily used by programmers"? (I genuinely don't know. I figured I'd ask you instead of Googling.)
 
@CodyGray - OK, and OBS is a videocapture tool
 
Cool. "Studio" made it sound vaguely programming-related, but I didn't consider that video editing software also uses that nomenclature.
 
7:59 AM
Understanding Closure. Yes, that would be awesome.
 
8:17 AM
..I think I'm going to have to revisit some theory just to get my head around the Question.
 
@Scratte you'd probably be surprised how often I dump a bunch of JVM bytecode into my team's work chat when I'm answering questions there :-p
The last time was explaining that @JvmStatic does not fix Kotlin's bizarre handling of companion objects
 
@RyanM Then you reverse engineer any adaptation and use it to Answer the Question?
 
@Scratte adaptation?
 
Oh.. I was assuming you'd compile the Question.. dump the bytecode. Get a fix on that, and use it to answer the Java Question that did not include anything about bytecode :)
 
My immediate team works almost entirely in Kotlin, so it's rarely Java code I'm dealing with :-p
 
8:22 AM
I think Kotlin looks.. strange :)
 
What about it is strange?
 
First.. the fun and the colons :)
 
8:54 AM
@Scratte you don't like fun?
 
Not the companion objects or the weird let/also/apply/run functions or the use of lambdas with different this values? :-p
 
@RyanM I never got close enough to be out-weirded that much. I may still happen :) Are you saying Kotlin has a different definition of this?
To be honest, using this is lamdbas are a source of confusion for me already.
 
@Scratte Kotlin function types can declare an optional receiver type, which becomes the this reference within the lambda: kotlinlang.org/docs/reference/…
 
9:09 AM
Hi guys, what would you do if someone down voted you for eight times in a row for no reasons?
 
that link also has let and run in it, just to add to the confusion
@Hardood chuckle a bit because the votes will be reversed automatically by a script tomorrrow
 
@RyanM I'll put Kotlin on my in 6-8 list :D
 
More seriously: the page I linked there has some additional guidance on the matter, but generally if you get 8 downvotes, that ought to be enough to trigger the script to reverse them in the next 24 hours
 
@RyanM Really?
 
@Hardood yes
 
9:14 AM
Thanks guys @RyanM and @VLAZ
 
No problem! Hopefully all goes well with getting your rep back :-)
 
@Hardood I'll resist the temptation to downvote you 37 times for demonstration purposes :=)
 
If it doesn't get fully refunded, you can flag a post for moderator attention. Although be careful, since it's possible that somebody serially downvoted 7 of your posts but then a different person legitimately (as in, not serially...) downvoted another. Although, chances are that it should be fine.
 
@RyanM i hope so
 
@halfer is probably one of the room's prime experts on receiving revenge downvotes :-p
 
9:16 AM
The serial voting script also reverses serial upvoting too.
 
I've only ever gotten two suspicious downvotes, somehow...
I also don't have many questions, so they have to pay rep if they want to downvote me very much...
 
@RyanM Yus, the burdens I carry for the community {sob} :=)
 
@halfer :-), you have all the rights to do so.
 
I can't remember being serially downvoted but I have had maybe a couple in a row on rather random questions. Coincidentally, after disagreement in the comments.
 
@RyanM This page seems to indicate that compilation goes directly into jar files. That was unexpected.
 
9:25 AM
@Scratte This causes so many binary-compatible-but-not-source-compatible issues and it's a pain in the neck.
Am I just tired or is this nonsense? stackoverflow.com/questions/62103614/…
 
9:40 AM
@RyanM You mean to say that there is no compilation to .class files? One has to extract them from the .jar? :D
 
@RyanM You have to look at the image. It's much clearer.
 
@MikeM. it's color-coded and everything!
 
@RyanM Yup. I concur. I totally get it after looking at the image.
 
@RyanM I feel kinda bad, 'cause that took a little work, obviously.
 
@Scratte No, it does compile to .class files, but Kotlin source compatibility is far further from binary compatibility than Java source compatibility is. For instance, the name of the file a top-level function is defined in can't change unless you take care to apply the right compatibility mitigations. Default arguments also have a bunch of issues, e.g., you can't just add more even though it would be fine in source.
@MikeM. Yeah, I left a comment since they clearly tried, but it definitely missed the mark by a mile...
 
9:47 AM
@RyanM Good call.
 
@Scratte "The -d option indicates the output path for generated class files which may be either a directory or a .jar file." emphasis added
 
@RyanM Oh. I was just looking at the example :$
 
I was more complaining that it goes straight to JVM bytecode rather than something a little closer to Kotlin source (e.g., some sort of Kotlin IR/bytecode)
 
But wouldn't that make is hard to run on the JVM?
 
You'd convert it to JVM bytecode at the "linking" stage of compilation. I'm mostly griping as a library developer, so you can't actually "run" my code :-p
 
9:53 AM
@RyanM Huh? You don't test it by running it? I mean I'd expect you'd be able to call it.
 
@Scratte Well it doesn't have a "main" method to run :-p but yes we do call it when testing. Basically the idea would be that libraries could distribute this "Kotlin IR" and then at the fine stage of compilation of a program using the libraries, the whole program would be lowered to JVM bytecode at once. That way you're not limited to what your API looks like after lowering to JVM bytecode.
 
I got a java Question in First Posts. Looking at the timeline I noticed the post was invalidated in triage. Does anyone know what caused that?
 
10:33 AM
@Scratte A "no action needed" review in First Posts.
 
@CodyGray I felt some action was needed though. I would have liked a main method. Couldn't make out where the "r" came from
But.. it was invalidated before the "No actions needed" was made.
 
Yeah, looks like it was invalidated from Triage simultaneously with the point being enqueued in "First Posts". Not sure exactly what the rules are there.
 
According to timeline, also it was in the queue before it was asked
 
@CodyGray I think perhaps the upvotes invalidated it.
 
Nah. It got enqueued in Triage at exactly the same time as it was asked. Those events are simultaneous.
Maybe the votes.
 
10:48 AM
I've seen post being both in Late Answer and in First Posts. Action on one doesn't dequeue it from another. But it could be that a vote made it dequeue from Triage and put into First Posts. I hadn't noticed those events were simultanious.
But a post can be both in First Posts and in Triage. The timeline on another Question shows that.
 
So review queue events are in the public timeline?
 
Why wouldn't they be?
I see that the actual review is also public: stackoverflow.com/review/first-posts/26241904
 
I didn't know they were in the public timeline. I thought I remember some time back hearing that they were not. I have a hard time keeping up with what privileges exist at different levels.
 
I think that while it's in the queue, one cannot see it on the timeline. It gets added when the post leaves the queue.
This timeline doesn't show that the post is in the First Posts queue at the moment.
 
Or, presumably, that it is in Triage. Which it went into immediately upon being asked.
 
11:00 AM
Not sure. I thought it had to "pass" some heuristics to go to Triage. But always went into First Posts.
 
I can't think of any quality metrics that question would have passed.
 
I put it as "pass", meaning: it failed to meet some standard :)
Of course if one is very bored, one can always mark a Question as "Requires editing" in Triage, and then "VLQ" in Help&Improvement.. and start the cycle yet again. Unless Samuel sees it and it's all over for the next 128 days ;)
 
Yeah, that's what I do when I'm bored. I heard something about other moderators handling "flags", but why bother with that when you can just ping-pong posts back-and-forth from one review queue to another?
 
11:32 AM
@Scratte what do you want to bring up?
 
@rene I have no idea what javaprintln.com is about really. It seems to be "Admin" making posts there. It may be a legitimate site, but it kind of feels like it's a personal one.
 
@Scratte the website is already blacklisted. Nothing more we can do.
 
Oh :) Sorry.
 
See the metasmoke record we have for that post: metasmoke.erwaysoftware.com/post/244927
 
I'm not sure I understand how to get from the post to the record. It doesn't seem to be matching the id's
 
11:47 AM
@Scratte I clicked the [MS] link in smokey's report
 
Heh.. It's right there. I've never noticed it before. Thank you :) I'm going to go hide now..
 
12:09 PM
I admit I had to check incognito and without userscripts to see if it was actually there for everyone ;)
 
12:32 PM
^ I think perhaps a custom flag should be raised on that one.. from reading the comments.
 
@Scratte it could be the case of too generous public
 
@JohnDvorak Yes. But I do not think that is very likely. I just had this in First Posts and at the time it was 0, so I didn't even notice.
 
Interestingly enough, the asker does reference a post on SU, and yet didn't post their new question there.
 
OB = ?
 
OB = opinion based
 
@JohnDvorak sounds like "what is better /why is x better" so yeah, OB.
 
"why is x better" is objectively answerable, isn't it?
 
@rene ya. So OB is allowed instead of ? :) . Why 'y' is better is objective question and VTC .
 
1:30 PM
@bad_coder a question being about Python isn't a close reason
 
@Shree no, John wanted to know first if that question was Opinion Based before he actually send a cv-pls.
 
ohhh . Thanks.
 
@JohnDvorak duplicate is linked in the question comments.
 
@JohnDvorak probably but not if the context is a whole distribution.
 
that's a good point
 
1:34 PM
@bad_coder What Rene meant is that in the chat message it was not clear you wanted to close this as a duplicate. It's good to specify what is the reason for closure when posting cv-pls
 
1:54 PM
@Dharman thank you for clarifying. It's not every day I report a duplicate, so it's lack of practice...
 
@bad_coder It's recommended that you use the userscript that's linked from the room FAQ
 
2:12 PM
@Dharman Wow, I didn't know that php was that dangerous
5
 
Good one, Braiam.
 
2:53 PM
> URGENTE
 
@E_net4isoutofcommentflags OP has edited it. Can you take a look?
 
@Dharman I did. It still looks bad ("can anyone help plz"), and the OP forgot to edit the title.
 
 
1 hour later…
4:13 PM
Is this java Question OK? It's seem to be asking for a code sample. I can't figure out if it's a how-to question.
 
Looks like code-for-me to me.
 
Ok. Thanks. Testing is hard though :)
 
@JohnDvorak I've edited it, though it's probably now Needs Focus
 
The "I'm a beginner" bit is still superfluous.
Only the second paragraph seems relevant, and I don't think it amounts to a real question.
 
@JohnDvorak In general I leave them in - I recall a Meta discussion which was about tailoring answers to a question author's experience level. I would understand if someone were to remove that, though.
Yeah, you're probably right - I don't think the OP has turned up with the right frame of mind anyway!
 
4:27 PM
But if they follow @halfer's suggestion, they may be on the right track soon enough. Even if the Question has to be closed. That's a win/win :)
 
Good news is it hasn't been reverted yet :P
Aaand the first paragraph has just been nuked by another editor
 
4:52 PM
@JohnDvorak {Giggle} yeah, I saw that :=)
Ha, have we got some spam from TEAM AR SE? I need to tell the poster that English people will want to chat with their marketing department.
 
5:06 PM
@halfer I don't understand what you mean :(
 
@halfer Hmm. I also wondered about the 'extra' space in the title of that recent spam Q/A.
 
5:26 PM
@Scratte In body part terms, "arse" is the UK English equivalent to the American "ass". It's quite a funny word, but you might not use it in front of your sensitive grandmother. When applied to people, we think "ass" means "fool", but "arse" means "difficult, mean, or unpleasant". A person who is an arse could also be a git.
So "Team Arse" might not be very easy to get along with :=).
Or they could have bottom fixations, I suppose.
 
@halfer Oh. Thanks :) The plot thickens though, since my search engine is saying that git is "An obsolete or dialectal form of get.". But wikipedia helped me out with "Git is a distributed version-control system.." :D But I'm good. I found another explanation for it that fits what you were saying :)
 
5:51 PM
@halfer and questions about git are usually on-topic, so they're totally fine, right? (-:
 
@RyanM Something like "Are these files too large for my repository"?
 
@Scratte Are you familiar with the story behind git's name?
@Scratte is this a "does this file make my repository look big?"-type joke? ^^;
 
@RyanM Yup :) I don't understand it, I've been using trim() since christmas.
 
@Scratte it's important to stay TRIM if you want to stay fast
 
6:20 PM
 
 
1 hour later…
7:29 PM
@WiktorStribiżew Hi Wiktor. We already closed that question. As far as I am aware this room's FAQ forbids us to repost the same request again. If there is a disagreement about the closure with another user then this discussion needs to be taken to Meta. We do not want to get dragged into any feuds. Besides those of us who already voted can't vote again.
Also, gimme teh regex is not an official close reason. We do not close questions because people want to have a solution in regex. You can use any of the currently existing close reasons.
 
@Dharman I'm willing to assume too broad in that case.
 
@WiktorStribiżew As @Dharman has explained, we do not permit repeat requests for the same action on posts where the earlier request was fulfilled by the room, primarily because that's a indicator that there might be a dispute between users, which isn't appropriate for us to be involved in as a group. Such disputes should be taken to Meta, or if a flaggable issue (this doesn't look like one), then it can be custom mod-flagged.
 
7:48 PM
@HovercraftFullOfEels Can you please review the reopening of this self-dupe? The original is here. It's just the parse insensitive (and the YYYY, there are more dupes for that I can help find).
 
8:06 PM
@Scratte Yes, I think "get" is a regional variation of git, possibly used in Ireland or Northern England.
 
I don't git what yer talking about
 
Earlier today I helped re-open a zero-effort regex question. There was a dispute between two high-rep users in the comments as to whether it should be opened, and @Dharman above raises the same issue. Although there is no official close reason about closing GMTC regex/SQL/XPath queries, I wonder if this Meta post creates some canonical policy that allows us to do so.
What are the room's thoughts on that?
@JohnDvorak Silly get ;-)
 
8:24 PM
@halfer Wait.. so get is also a variant of prat/contemptible in some regions? I thought it was that git used to be the same verb as get just like @JohnDvorak used it :) I got that so wrong :)
 
@Scratte I would say that prat and git are both quite mild. It's often used humorously, and if it is used as an insult, it is not strong. The meaning of "prat" is "fool", so we might say "oi kids, stop pratting about and give me a hand with this".
 
@Scratte In contemporary non-programming material, I've primarily seen "git" used as a pejorative, but most that usage is from British English. Obviously, there's the git which is a version-control system, which is how I've seen it used the most, at this point, but that's a very programming/engineering focused usage.
 
@Makyen It turns out, that the version control may have been named because of the pejorative use of the word, as pointed out by RyanM earlier :)
 
@halfer If you are going to pick a reason when you vote to close then let us know that reason. That is all. There is no GMTC reason, but other reasons might be suitable. e.g. needs debugging or needs focus.
 
@Dharman I wonder if the emphasis of my question is not clear, which is my fault. I am not asking what I should do, I am asking what we should all do. I am also not making a proposal, I am asking for feedback. So, yes, obviously we have to pick a reason that exists. I am asking whether in the cases of a "no effort regex" we can/should close.
Some people here might think the Meta link does not sufficiently create precedent for us to do it. Others might say yes, do it, but don't do it in SO CVR, etc.
 
8:39 PM
I don't think we can have one simple generic rule. The answer you are pointing to simply suggest regex question be treated same as any other code questions. If OP wants help with the regex, they need to show it to us and describe what is the input and what is the desired output.
 
Fair enough. I appreciate there isn't actually a close reason of "lacks effort" (well, there used to be). I guess some people say that my Meta link brings that close reason back for specific cases.
 
The thing with regex questions is that most of the time they are way too broad. People believe that regex is a magical solution to their problem. If the question is not reasonably scoped then it should be closed as needs more focus.
 
True, yep
 
Stack Overflow is the place where you can get the codez you are looking for. Closing questions because they ask for the code is not reasonable in my opinion. Even if OP showed no effort, it does not mean that the question is not answerable or a bad question at all. As long as it is not a duplicate and no other close reason applies to it, the question can be answered.
4
If you think OP is just wasting our time with something trivial then downvote, but what is trivial for you might be rocket science for someone else.
 
About the regex Question: There is no engine. So it lacks details. The answer even doesn't work on every engine. regexr.com have no idea what *FAIL and *SKIP is
 
8:48 PM
@Scratte Exactly, so the question could be closed because it needs more details, but not because it is asking for regex
 
@Dharman That is my opinion. I do not like when questions are closed just because the blood of the Question author isn't coming though my monitor. It doesn't make sense, because the more research they convey the more bloat the is on the Question. Future readers do not want to sift through all that just to see if they have the same issue.
And it also rarely changes the answers. For debugging Questions it's an entirely different situation because the Answers depends on the circumstance.
I'm not well versed in the regex tag, so I have no idea if there are any duplicates to "find x when it's not inside two y's". But that is another option for this Question, if one has to time to find a duplicate.
 
@Dharman While I agree with this, I'd temper it by explaining that most questions which are asking for code are closeable for other reasons. IME, that's primarily because what's asked for is too broad for this format, or the question fails to specify everything which is needed in order to actually implement what's being asked for without making significant guesses. In other words, because the question is too broad or unclear, but it's not because the question is asking for code / a regex.
In other words, asking "how to" do something can be a very good, or even great, question, if what's being asked about is very narrow in focus and the question provides sufficient details about what's to be done and the constraints which apply to the solution, so answerers don't have to make significant assumptions.
 
@Dharman But that doesn't generate interesting questions. Without interesting questions, you don't get experts answers. And if experts aren't answering questions, why would we have this site at all?
 
@Braiam Would you mind explaining what you mean? Can you give an example, please?
 
@Braiam That is not entirely true. I see high-rep expert answering even what I believe are unanswerable Questions all the time. It's not uncommon to have a debugging question without even the error being answered with multiple answers in less than the first 15 minutes.
 
9:03 PM
@Dharman Why people ask questions on SO? Because they expect a good answer.
@Scratte Those are minority. Or do you really believe that all experts on the site behave the same way?
 
I am not advocating bad answers. I am saying that question asking for code is not automatically a bad question. It might lack details or focus like Makyen said, but GMTC is not a reason in itself for closing a question.
 
@Dharman But questions without effort aren't interesting either ;)
 
@Braiam Why not?
 
@Dharman Because it's the same old NPE question for the Nth time ;)
After you have seen 10 or 20 times the same question it loses novelty.
 
@Braiam Well. This has two sides. No, I believe we are individuals. Meaning your point doesn't hold. I find how-to Questions to be much more interesting than bloated "Here's all my research"-questions. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I'm also sure that some experts will answer while others will not.
 
9:07 PM
@Scratte which doesn't invalidate my point.
 
I am sorry Braiam, but I can't understand what you are saying. Maybe you have misunderstood me. NPE questions would be duplicate.
 
@Dharman NPE was an example.
 
@Braiam It invalidates your "But that doesn't generate interesting questions."
 
The main thing is: people needs to be motivated to answer questions. When they feel it's a chore, ie. doing all the work, they loose interest.
@Scratte Nope it doesn't. Interesting questions are novel for the reader.
 
The only thing your point makes it that you don't find those interesting.
 
9:09 PM
@Scratte No, I don't claim that.
I don't care about how to or fix this questions, as long as they are interesting problems to solve.
 
@Braiam It looks to me like you enjoy more answering debugging-type questions rather than anything else.
 
@Braiam If it's not novel for the reader (i.e. for the person considering answering it), then it's likely to be a duplicate.
 
@Dharman I love solving problems.
 
@Braiam Debugging Questions are just so boring to me. So this reader doesn't find them interesting :)
 
@Scratte Well, they may not be your thing, but it doesn't nags you that something that you believe it should work, isn't working the way you expect?
 
9:12 PM
@Braiam It nags me more that a how-to Question that I wanted to know how to do got killed by votes.
 
@Scratte What's preventing you to ask the same question?
 
Besides no one is forcing anybody to answer a question. You can browse and find the question you like and downvote the rest. Closing a question should only be done when the question SHOULD NOT be answered.
 
Better framed.
@Dharman The thing is that that's an opinion, and if you ask a group of 10 software engineers which option should solve a problem you get 9 solutions and 36 opinions that it's not a problem but a feature.
 
@Braiam Why would I ask a Question that was already killed? Apart from that I do not ask Questions for that exact reason. I cannot know how it will be received, especially not if it's a how-to. There's a fear factor that is far more powerful than me finding out on my own and not sharing it here.
 
@Scratte Read some of my questions on the site, there are not many, but most of them are how to ;)
How to solve this thing :P
 
9:15 PM
Am I allowed to post a cv-pls as a dupe, when the dupe target answer is mine?
 
But it someone else takes the risk and asks the Question, I will Answer it.
 
@AdrianMole I don't see why not. If it is the correct duplicate target then be my guest. IANARO
 
@AdrianMole I think so, yes :) I've seen it before in this room :)
 
@Scratte Then it wasn't an interesting question for you. If you want to answer something, you shouldn't allow yourself to be discouraged from doing so.
 
Well, it's not an exact dupe, but my answer covers the same possibilities as the now posted (new) answer.
 
9:17 PM
@AdrianMole Or you could answer the other question adapted to the new requirements.
 
@AdrianMole Alternatively if the question is similar but not exact duplicate you can try to answer as long as the answer is not going to be the same as before.
 
Remember, duplicate questions are those where all answers to A are answers to B and viceversa.
 
@Braiam I don't understand your point. If I find a Question interesting, I will wait and see if it gets killed. It if doesn't, I'll investigate and answer it. If it does, I'll investigate and never answer it.
 
@Braiam Posting a second answer would defeat the purpose of having dupe votes.
 
@Scratte Ok, explain this to me: you do all the work for nothing?
 
9:18 PM
@AdrianMole Only if you are duplicating the answer.
 
Feel free to look and see what you think.
 
Why would you put effort to investigate something without showing your results?
 
@Braiam Because it is a typo, no repro, duplicate, unclear or something else.
 
@Braiam That's not quite how it's used, particularly on some canonical questions, which might cover a broader question, where all answers might not be interchangeable.
 
@Dharman That's not the impression I get from what @Scratte finds interesting.
 
9:20 PM
@Braiam That's how the site works, it's it? I mean unicorn points do not pay my rent.. Why would I do the research without showing my results? Because there is a large group of curator that think that uninteresting/unrehearsed Questions should be killed. So I will not ask one. I will also not ask a researched one, because I hate the bloat.
 
@Makyen Yeah, that's why we still get NPE questions.
A duplicate target that doesn't prevent more questions to be asked isn't a good target.
@Scratte So, explain me again, why are you on this site at all? Booze and hookers?
 
@Braiam Not, necessarily, while it is ideal that a dup-target will be found and understood by the person asking the duplicate question, both or either of those don't always happen.
 
@Makyen I would tell you about my experience with a supposed "canonical question" which didn't answer my question. stackoverflow.com/q/21767538/792066 was closed against this stackoverflow.com/questions/3076414/…
 
In the case I just posted, any answer I could give to the new question would be essentially a verbatim copy of the answer in the proposed duplicate. It's the same case of using namespace std; that's replacing a local definition of a function called swap but where that is called with the wrong type of arguments.
... how much closer does it need to be?
 
Closevoters forgot that CORS inside of an chrome extension isn't the same as CORS for the web browser visiting a site.
 
9:26 PM
@Braiam I Answer a little.. and I flag stuff. And I fill up the chat with non-sense :) I've been here 5 months and my rep is not really moving, so I'm not here for the points.
 
@Scratte Ha, you are a kid still. My reputation moves down since 4 years ago :D
 
Is there a daily cap on how much reputation you can lose? ;)
 
Not that I know of.
 
@Braiam Yes, I'm 142 days old. It looks like you got positive rep in those 4 years.
 
@Braiam Try downvoting 201 answers, one day, and report back what you discover.
 
9:28 PM
Also, it has to be a flurry of downvotes to do anything meaningful, which would probably trigger a flag and deletion by a mod.
 
@AdrianMole That is about enough. It is an exact duplicate.
 
@AdrianMole votes are limited to 40 (up and down share from the same pool)
 
@Dharman Thankfully, @eyllanesc has gold-hammered the dupe.
 
@Braiam I believe you can cast maximum of 140 votes per day.
 
@Dharman Privilege page says 40 stackoverflow.com/help/privileges/vote-up
 
9:31 PM
@Braiam Obviously, although, personally I would have closed the question as "no MCVE", given that you didn't specify if you were doing the action within a content script, a background script, or even a page script. You also didn't provide your manifest.json, which was critical in determining what your actual issue was (although we could likely guess from the various possibilities).
 
Not sure if you can cast 201 votes per day. I don't see any way to do so.
 
The fact that some people got a specific duplicate wrong, doesn't make for blanket statements about duplicates.
 
@AdrianMole My above comment should be addressed to you. I cast more than 40 votes in one day on multiple occasions but I think it is impossible to cast 201 votes in one day.
 
@Makyen Remember that the question is 6 years old. AFAIK, Chrome extensions only were able to use background scripts and script injection.
 
@Dharman My suggestion wasn't intended to be taken literally.
 
9:34 PM
And the fact that https content had problems but http didn't wasn't helping clarifying the problem.
@Makyen But puts it in perspective.
@Makyen lets put it this way: in what order you evaluate close reasons?
I go: off topic, unclear, opinion based, too broad, duplicate.
Because for me a question only deserves being a duplicate if by itself it is a question in good standing. Just happened that it was asked before.
 
@Braiam I'd have to go back and check when things changed and how. From what I recall, the contexts I mentioned existed at that time (and what you describe in your message here are the background and content script contexts, with the page context accessible from the content script context), and a manifest.json was required, as evidenced by your answer.
 
"a manifest.json was required, as evidenced by your answer" nobody asked for it ;)
 
@Braiam But, they should have, or you should have supplied it as part of a MCVE.
 
@Makyen I supplied an MCVE, an MCVE for a problem we all believed it was caused by the server sending headers, not by the browser extension api.
 
@Braiam I would certainly agree with your placing "duplicate" and the end of the pecking order. I think (especially for new users) that finding the dupe before posting their question can be tricky ... the SO search system is famously inadequate.
 
9:41 PM
@Braiam I agree that duplicate should (primarily) be for otherwise acceptable questions, but it often ends up that many which are not do get closed as duplicate, because that can be easier.
 
@Makyen Yeah, I saw the graphs by Shog. That's why I hope for the day that gold badges can close questions for any reason, not just duplicate.
The fact that the number of questions closed as duplicate stayed the same despite the modifications to the amount of votes needed, was all the confirmation I was looking for.
 
I do not understand this timeline on an NAA. My flag was helpful and it's still there.
 
@Scratte Remember that it marks helpful if any of the reviewers recommends deletion.
 
@Braiam No, no you didn't supply a MCVE. Your actual problem can not be duplicated from just the information in the question. I understand you and others thought that way at the time, but thinking that way (both the MCVE issue and the cause) demonstrates unfamiliarity with the extension environment.
 
@Braiam No, it doesn't. For NAA, it's not helpful until it's gone normally. For Question flags, it's marked helpful when someone uses a close vote, but that's different.
 
9:47 PM
@Makyen Which is why duplicate is way too used. If anyone sat for a moment and think "wait a minute, CORS errors also come from the browser" I would've saved 30 minutes of my life trying unsuccessfully solutions to that question.
 
@halfer @halfer Interesting regex question where the user shows no effort and is unwilling to clarify the question after I have asked them more than once. From their comments I think I now know what they want to do, but getting that information seemed nearly as difficult as pulling hens teeth. It would be good if that meta post you found had a positive and clear answer. My reading of it is that there is no concensus.
 
And if memory doesn't fail me, that's just the moment when v2 manifest were being introduced, so unfamiliarity with the extension environment can't be understated. @Makyen
 
@Braiam Also. I got this in First Posts after the "recommend deletion" as I could see the comment when I got it. Normally I would flag a post that was already in the LQP queue, but since I got in a queue, I just went with it.
So I do not understand what is happening with this post.
 
@Scratte Mm... that is strange indeed.
 
@Scratte It looks like a mod handled your NAA flag. If they marked it helpful then it means you were right to flag, but most likely the mod saw value in the link-only answer and decided not to delete it anyway.
 
9:50 PM
@AdrianMole I don't understand your comment where you tag me, could you explain.
 
I know what's happening @Scratte, it may still be in the LQRQ
 
What is LQRQ?
 
Low Quality Review Queue, I'd guess
 
@Braiam It cannot be. NAA flag are not marked helpful until the post is removed :) I know this for sure because I've handled about 1000 NAAs now and I always keep monitoring my flags until they are handled.
 
Heh, I feel old.
 
9:51 PM
@eyllanesc The question you closed with your gold hammer was being discussed in here at the time; I assumed you acted on that discussion, so I tagged you in my comment.
 
I'm inclined to think @Dharman is right. That it's been handled by a moderator. However, if that is the case, then why are there still comments from review on the post?
 
If it was still in the LQP review then I would be able to review it, but I can't. stackoverflow.com/review/low-quality-posts/26281921
 
@Dharman Review task expire ;)
A post can pass multiple times for the queue
 
@Braiam I am 99.99% sure it doesn't.
 
@AdrianHHH I think you are a probably right to declare that post as not having a consensus, there was indeed a mix of views. I was wondering if we could shift opinion in SO CVR as to closing some questions entirely because there was no effort, but perhaps insufficient precedent has been set. Thanks.
 
9:58 PM
I may ask our cherished moderator if I can ask about the timeline and what is going on with this post, because I'm pretty sure we will not be able to find out just by staring at it :)
 
@Scratte Ask in meta, maybe someone knows.
@gnat Ok, wth is that tag?
 
@Scratte I just skipped through the entire LQP queue, and it wasn't still in there.
 
@AdrianMole That's so nice of you :) I understand you skipped them all for me ;D
 
There were only 50 in there ... and I've had enough of reviewing for today, already.
 
@AdrianMole You could just filter by imessage ;)
 
10:02 PM
I tried filtering by C++ and got zero - so I didn't trust the filter.
 
@Braiam I think it was just blindly typed using wrong keyboard. If you use URRS you do not see the difference.
 
@Braiam It means database
 
lol. Not literally.
 
That is right, but it's in the suggestion :)
 
10:37 PM
@Braiam While the duplicate closure was too hasty in this case, that doesn't equate to "why duplicate is way too used". I agree that there are a significant number of questions which do get closed inappropriately as duplicates. However, I suspect that there are significantly more questions which are duplicates which don't get closed as a duplicate.
@Braiam It was a couple years after their introduction of V2; a year and a half after Google no longer accepted new V1 extensions on the Chrome store. However, I don't believe this was a V1/V2 manifest issue.
 
11:12 PM
@DontKnowMuchButGettingBetter I'm still waiting for the no "informed" badge - can't ask a question rule
 
11:38 PM
 

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