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6:07 PM
ty
 
@S.S.Anne are you asking us to trash random things? I'm all in! Where is Kyll?
 
I went back and forth about wanting to write an answer on the question. I decided not to since I got a most-likely-revenge downvote after I commented on an incorrect answer.
 
Okay, no worries, I'll revenge down vote you for no reason at all ... just give me the go ahead ...
8
 
I was going to star that but I was afraid it would be a "go ahead"... So no star for you.
I can see how that edit was legitimate because at the time it was proposed the formatting was bad. But it had since been fixed.
 
6:29 PM
@S.S.Anne LOL ... good call ;)
 
M--
6:45 PM
anyone with an active account on quora?
 
@M-- How very dare you ;=)
 
M--
I don't wanna recommend it or anything
don't get offended
 
I will try not to :=) <-- smiley again
 
M--
ok, active was poor choice of words. Anyone has an account with quora that they put some time on it, and now it's abandoned but not deleted YET?
@halfer better?
They are offering money for moderating their site
 
6:53 PM
Should someone mention the affiliation thing in a comment too?
 
If so we would prefer it to be @M-- since we have a general rule about not piling on comments from multiple users for stuff originating from this room
 
M--
@TylerH have I violated a rule? sorry didn't get what you're saying
 
@M-- Not at all
You are simply the person who first commented on a post reported in this room
we have a FAQ point (I'll find it in a bit) that requests (though it's not a be-all-end-all requirement) that users avoid piling on comments for stuff reported here
 
M--
OK, you talk about smoky. I thought it's about that Q site :D
 
Though it is mostly to avoid situations where there's half a dozen of us all posting auto comments or manual comments describing various criticisms of said post
> A post is to be actively handled by only one member of the room. We don't need 4 members all leaving witty statements in the comments or in chat.
 
6:58 PM
@TylerH Yes. I read that rule. Which is why I didn't comment on it.. Then on second thought I figured the user should be informed.
 
But as I mentioned, it's not an absolute thing. If you post a comment and it's the 2nd one on a post, it's typically no big deal.
 
M--
As @Machavity did so
 
We just don't want a wall of SOCVR comments either
 
but if you do it every time, or if you post the 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. comment, we may ask you to hold off a bit
 
I left a comment because he's probably not aware of the self-promotion rule. I don't want him thinking it was just because it was link-only
 
M--
7:01 PM
@Machavity I thought it's one time thing. Then I checked and have seen other links to their GH-repo
Not sharing links tho since it'd be targeting them
 
@M-- If there's a pattern please share in Charcoal. Thanks
 
M--
@Machavity Don't I need to be a trusted user to do that?
 
@M-- With the present messages currently listed in the room, it's sort of not even necessary either.
 
To directly report to Smokey, yes. To discuss a potential pattern of spam, no
 
M--
@Scratte right, they got ninja'd cc: @MartijnPieters
@Machavity Thanks. One thing, I am still learning about smoky, but when I feel comfortable, how I can be a trusted user (I know it says ping the SOCVR ROs, etc., but can I ping you here for that?)
 
7:09 PM
@M-- I'll mention it to the other ROs. If nobody objects, we'll request Charcoal add you to the list
 
@TylerH Thanks :) It's tricky to know when rules are rigid
 
@Scratte Typically we use the kind of ruleset that SO ought to be using; assume good intentions and use a light, corrective touch rather than a heavy, punitive one wherever possible :-)
 
So a ball-peen hammer, not a sledgehammer
 
M--
@Machavity Thank you, but no rush, I may have spent couple hours in total reading Charcoal so far. I'd rater get more informed before acting p.s however I have self-control. I can put a hold on it myself :/ :D
 
@M-- never hurts to practice over in Charcoal HQ.
 
7:14 PM
@TylerH If you ever see me in a punitive tone, just tell me. If would probably be because I didn't notice the harshness of my own writing.
@Das_Geek You're using one of those pen-mice that recognizes handwriting?
 
@Scratte I don't get it
 
@Das_Geek Well, everyone wants to be sledgehammer
 
@Machavity I thought that was shredders
 
@Das_Geek Hmm.. me either. I lost an e en route. Made your smaller hammer into a pen :D
 
7:46 PM
@BillTür I would argue this is a useful typo. I made that same typo hundreds of times.
 
I find it rather patronizing that the close vote modal shows me this text
> Vote to close questions that can’t or shouldn’t be answered on Stack Overflow. Learn more about the close and reopen votes privilege.
I have cast nearly 39,000 close votes; I feel like I know pretty well when to cast them.
 
8:02 PM
@TylerH Well you know, just in case :P
 
Are you suggesting user-sensitive dialog boxes? Just for CVs, or across the whole SE UI?
 
if (user.review_bans === 0) { $(".modal_tip").hide(); }
right, @TylerH? ;P
 
@AdrianMole If they're dead-set on adding basic, tour/help center knowledge to various parts of the UI throughout the site, then yes, I'm suggesting user-sensitive modals throughout the site.
I'd rather they remove it from the modal though
If they're that concerned that people are closing questions without knowing why we close some questions, they should be required to view the help center page or fill in some value only stored there before being able to access the modal option
@Das_Geek if only...
 
I'd support your second point, if you made a feature-request on Meta. Small, more succinct modals would make my life easier, for sure - I get fed up of having to move boxes up the screen in order to see the buttons at the bottom.
 
dbc
8:20 PM
@TylerH I never even noticed. But now that I have... it still doesn't bother me particularly, just looks like some V1.0-type boilerplate. (I'm much more annoyed by this recent regression, I wish they would fix it: “X questions with new activity” showing incorrect information in windows with multiple tag filters.)
 
what year are you viewing SO from with those screenshots? 0.o
and oof, yeah that does seem like an annoying bug
 
dbc
I'm using something called Seamonkey which is built on a Gecko ESR. So, um, last decade maybe? I'd switch to Firefox if they hadn't removed the ability to have different window icons per profile.
No wait it's already 2020 so decade before last?
 
Fork Firefox, add a call to SendMessage(hWnd, WM_SETICON, ICON_SMALL, hIcon), recompile. Problem solved. :)
2
 
8:35 PM
Sounds like a good Q/A pair for ... ummm ... yeah, Stack Overflow.
 
dbc
I have only cast 2,419 closure votes though, so perhaps after another 10,000 I'll be annoyed at the boilerplate also.
 
@TylerH They’re actually trying to make these privileges more discoverable (plenty of folks gain CV privs without realizing it), and do a better job of explaining them so that folks will feel more comfortable exercising them. So, it’s actually a very good thing… But as usual the execution is subpar in a few ways.
 
@dbc is that really the only reason? It seems quite minor
@CodyGray I'm all for making users more aware of things when they relevant get privileges
 
@AdrianMole Meh. Steps 1 and 3 are too broad. Step 2 is a dupe.
@TylerH What about grammar assistance? Thoughts on that? :-p
 
dbc
@TylerH Pretty much yeah. I tend to use different profiles for different purposes so keeping the windows sorted is convenient. Also, there is a question + an an answer by Makyen here: stackoverflow.com/questions/24004418/… As of Firefox 57, this is not possible from an extension.
 
8:39 PM
Yeah, the FF architecture for window chrome and styles is ridiculously, unnecessarily complex.
Hmm. I wonder if a better option would be a separate app that could just force a manual change to a window’s icon?
 
@dbc I would recommend simply using different two windows or even just two tab groups
 
That’s only a few lines of Win32 code, but would require elevated privileges to be able to change other apps.
 
@dbc Change to Chrome. Come to the rainbow side.
 
@Dharman When someone complains about a lack of browser customizabilty, and you recommend Chrome, I have to assume you’re trolling...
 
Why? Is Chrome not customizable enough?
 
8:42 PM
It’s not customizable at all!
 
dbc
I already use lots of different windows instead of tabs.
 
I am happy as long as I can run some userscripts.
 
There’s no menu bar, I can’t change the toolbar, I can’t change any of the other views...
@dbc Heathen!
 
What bars? Why do people need meny bars and toolbars? Is this a nostalgia to the 90s AOL toolbars?
I want to see the content not the browser. Press F11 and live your life!
 
Ew
Too many tabs for that to work, my friend
 
dbc
8:47 PM
If by "heathen" you mean "somebody with ancient, non-monowindowistic beliefs", then... maybe?
 
My issue is practicality, I guess. You spend too much time shuffling multiple windows around, sizing them just where you want them so you can see everything. Whereas with tabs, I can just effortlessly make it full-screen.
I will fling a tab off to a second (or third or fourth) monitor, where it’s also easiest to just maximize it.
@dbc I think that’s how all mainstream churches define it, yes :-)
 
Does anyone use the multiple desktops feature?
 
I have, once
 
dbc
@Dharman I still use menu bars because they support keyboard navigation. Honestly I could do without toolbar buttons though, I almost never use them in any product that still has menus, right-click popups + keyboard shortcut support.
 
If my workstation were a bit more stable and a higher % of my job involved programming, I would probably use it a bit more
but it is a super neat feature
 
8:51 PM
No. I’ve tried. I wanted to like it. It seemed like a good idea, considering how often I switch between sets of tasks.
For reasons I cannot fully articulate, though, multiple desktops just never worked for me. Neither on Windows or Mac, so I don’t think it is a UI issue.
 
Ohh no. I just accidentally closed a question.
 
Closest I've come to "multiple desktops" is having multiple tmux tabs
 
@Dharman Did you fail to read the wee notice at the top of the CV pop-up box? ;)
 
No, I answered and then I looked at it again seeing 2 CV votes, I thought it was one on my list to be closed.
 
But I guess you only 33.3% closed it.
 
8:58 PM
@Das_Geek I don’t know how people exclusively use console sessions to get real work done. I want to have multiple editor windows, be able to see my compiler output, and possibly even the commit history.
 
and, for me, the rendered output of my website that I'm working on
 
What to do about a user who posts a self-answer showing my solution, but implemented in a buggy way?
 
@Dharman Wholesale copied or just modified and attributed, but you don't like it?
 
They didn't copy the answer. They implemented my suggestion and showed how they did it. See stackoverflow.com/a/60402653/1839439
 
@Dharman Downvote because it’s wrong/not useful, and comment to explain how it’s buggy and/or how to fix it?
 
9:03 PM
I have done it, but it still looks like "thanks" answer.
 
It's not. He took your prepared statement and mangled SQL injection back in. So it's not actually the same thing
 
If there’s no plagiarism concern (i.e., they gave you credit), then there’s no procedural problem. In the normal circumstance, where the offered solution is correct, it’s a valid answer. It’s often useful to show how the general solution can be applied in a specific case.
 
@CodyGray Well considering I use terminal Vim as my editor, that's not too far off :)
 
This happens to me a lot, because I tend to write more general answers, so someone else will come along to provide copy-paste ready code. :-)
 
But yeah when the project I'm working on has any sort of GUI, it's a pita
 
9:04 PM
I voted to delete the Q, since it's not terribly useful
 
@Das_Geek That’s what I mean. How do you work that way? Bum fills the whole screen.
OK, iPhone. Bum -> Vim
 
@Machavity Yeah, I thought it would happen sooner or later. I can't blame you for it.
So, the answer to my question is delete the question. :D
 
You’d be surprised how many problems are solved by deleting the question...
 
@CodyGray Multiple frames in a window. Can do that with either tmux or Vim. I generally prefer to have a per-project Vim instance, with multiple buffers open in splits. Then switch between projects and terminals via tmux
 
9:10 PM
@Das_Geek Ehh, that 4-tile pattern is just ugly and unusable.
 
@CodyGray In general I would echo your statement of wanting to have multiple windows open. But when your company's IT people clamp down on internal connection speeds so that it feels like a 56k modem, you generally make do :)
 
@Das_Geek If by “make do”, you mean picket outside the IT offices, then yes.
 
@Das_Geek ew, what
why would they limit internal connection speeds?
 
I have a windows host machine, on which no work gets done. I either have to RDP or VNC into a tip-in server (don't ask me why), which then ssh-es into a Linux VM. That's where the work happens
 
What’s a tip-in server?
 
9:12 PM
@CodyGray Also known as a jump server, if that helps
 
*doesn't let people do work on workstations for security purposes*

*requires SMB1 to get to servers to do work*
 
Hmm, someone thinks this is “security”. Meanwhile, the 1980s called and wants their “dumb terminal” back...
@Das_Geek It doesn’t...
I’ve never seen a server jump
 
Could it be that security resources are so limited at your org that they can only manage to secure a few servers rather than many workstations?
 
But still...secure the VM(s) that are accessed via SSH. Why do you need the jumping server in the middle?
 
@CodyGray It's for security purposes. Basically it helps shield the corporate network from an accidental "oopsie" from people working on lab machinery. The jump server acts as a very-tightly-locked-down and heavily-monitored machine whose sole purpose is to allow corporate machines to connect to the workstations
It was a system that was put into place by someone who is/was overly paranoid, and is generally regarded as a mistake by everyone else
 
9:16 PM
Yeah, that barely even makes sense to me.
 
I agree w/ Cody; just secure the Linux VM
I mean, I know you have little control over this, probably
 
It's one of the hoops you have to jump through (apparently) to have your lab certified to work on secret stuff
The lab machines have no access to the internet and are considered "safe", even though you can just download arbitrary things onto your machine and sftp it onto the VM...
 
It sounds like it could be vastly improved by just using network and firewall segmentation
from what little I can tell about the situation
 
@Das_Geek Heh, yeah. That backdoor approach is too often overlooked.
 
I know very little about "proper" networking, so I may not be communicating it very well.
 
9:20 PM
I get the concept of wanting some kind of 'virtual airgap' for individual workstations, but just making the user hop twice doesn't do much
 
This is not the case on the "real part" of the project I'm working on, but as I'm not properly cleared yet I'm working on "outside" machines. "Inside" machines have a real airgap, and you get stuff in by CD or hard copy
 
There’s also the very fundamental problem of a security infrastructure failing to consider some minimal practicality/usability. If it’s too difficult for devs to use to get work done, they’ll find workarounds, thus subverting any security that might have been gained.
 
^
 
Oh definitely. It was the worst when I was working on a project that involved a backend database, and I was given the bare minimum permissions on that database...that no one else touched, it would never be used on anything, and was just for my testing and dev purposes. I asked for all perms, and would instead be given very specific perms for that exact scenario. Well turns out my user was in the sudoers group so I, uh, "worked around" the issue
 
Getting stuff in by CD or hard copy (or flash drive) also makes very little sense to me as a security protocol. The only thing that’s stopping is the chick on NCIS from hacking into your system live over the Internet. While holding her laptop with her other hand. It’s not preventing infection with malware, disclosure of sensitive information, or anything else that actually matters.
 
9:25 PM
@CodyGray flash drives are no-no. CDs only
Taking advantage of the write-once property
 
@Das_Geek Yeah, that'd be hella frustrating. I'm assuming they were saying "you should only need these permissions for the production env, so you only get the same ones for test"?
@Das_Geek don't tell them CD-RWs are a thing
 
@TylerH I have no idea their reasoning
@TylerH We don't use those haha. The company is actually good at what it does :P
 
lol
so you work for a contracting firm? rather than directly for the USG?
 
It's not like there aren't reviews and approvals and virus scans of everything. Part of this hassle is to make sure we don't have to go through the even bigger hassle of getting software approved...takes months at least
@TylerH Currently, yeah
Should probably update my bio, meh
 
@Das_Geek Wait, what? That procedure keeps you from having to have the final software approved?!
 
9:28 PM
On the upside, at least they know what permissions are and how to set them up. Not like "Our web server needs perms so WITH GRANT OPTION YOLO"
 
@CodyGray I think he means getting 3rd party software approved for use in his workstation or server env
not getting the software he's writing approved
 
@CodyGray Hm, maybe I phrased poorly. Let me think a bit
 
@Machavity heh, reminds me of my days as a teenager "hey I need to be able to see this admin page on the phpBB forum" "OK kewl, I just set the permissions to 777 in FileZilla"
 
Oh, I see. Haha. I was wondering if I could pay some minor inconvenience in process to skip the certification phase.… :-) Wishful thinking, I guess.
 
Certification? Testing? As Kevin B says, just let the end users do that
 
9:30 PM
@TylerH That is 100% real world today. Except people just do it from the Linux command line directly.
 
I get all my penetration testing for free. The Internet is truly amazing like that
 
3rd-party code requires review, internal approval, virus scanning. 3rd-party software requires approval from the customer...which takes eons. So it's less of a hassle to spend hours looking through code and testing and hand-typing modifications than it would be to bring an installer in
 
@TylerH I also work on a lot of government, military, and aerospace contracts… The SE model of “Is it Friday? Did the build complete? Ship it!” doesn’t quite apply.
 
@CodyGray yay for process-heavy workflows...not
 
@Das_Geek Why would code require a virus scan? By code, you do mean actual code, right? Like text files?
 
9:32 PM
I mean it's not all bad, and I agree that it's necessary
 
@CodyGray Luckily healthcare isn't quite so rigorous, though it probably should be
 
@CodyGray Correct, and I have no idea
 
Sadly, the apparent rigor doesn’t actually help much.
 
This is just what I've been told. I've never brought anything "inside", so I don't know
 
It’s all security and/or documentation theatre.
 
9:34 PM
One of the projects I'm working on is an interal auditing tool that will (apparently) shave multiple hours off the code review process and turn three days of meetings into one
Not sure how excited I am to get cleared and move into that process....
 
If your code reviews can be replaced by a machine or algorithm, then you are doing your code reviews wrong :-(
 
hey, just encountered my first StackOverflowException. Neat.
 
First day on the job? How could this be the first time to hit a stack overflow?
 
well, I've hit stackoverflow.com thousands of times :-D
I guess I can't add SQL SelectParameters and a SQL SelectCommand statement for a SQL DataSource to a listbox using that SQL DataSource in the _OnDataBound call attached to said listbox...
 
You can, as long as you’re willing to do it infinitely many times.
2
 
9:47 PM
I think I meant to put it in the onCheckedChange call, anyway
 
@CodyGray The tool doesn't review, just presents the code for review
 
10:10 PM
My brain just broke again.. is this more than just NAA?
 
@Scratte NAA
 
M--
I second that
 
Saying that the user should post their question on another site is not an answer. Should be a comment at the most
 
@Das_Geek Ok. I thought it was kind of rude to the site.. but I don't like to use that flag.
 
Oh I thought you were asking if it somehow was a sliver of an answer. Yeah it's not rude
You can judge rude by the flag's tooltip: "A reasonable person would find this content inappropriate for respectful discourse."
 
10:15 PM
@Das_Geek True. But then I'm not a reasonable person :)
I don't find "mm mmm mm m" rude. It just makes me want to have chocolate.
 
Pfft. I'm not even a person
bleep bloop
 
M--
@Scratte I have left comments saying to open an issue on github many times. When it's a bug or a feature request, that's not a bad idea. And, at least I try not to be rude :D Actually, I have an answer that recommends posting to github, but that's not the only thing in my answer AFAIR ;)
 
@M-- But that's not the same as a post saying "if you want more answers then go to this other site"
 
@Scratte Meh, in general it's better to assume the poster had good intentions and were just trying to be helpful.
 
Ok. Thanks :)
 
10:24 PM
:%s/were/was/
 
@Das_Geek No "Not a Robot" badge then?
 
I know there must be others, but the only user whose profile I've seen with the "Not a Robot" badge is "Community ♦"
 
@AdrianMole That doesn't even make sense :)
 
This is Stack Overflow - things don't have to make sense ... as long as they're focused and helpful.
 
@Scratte Sadly, no :(
@AdrianMole stackoverflow.com/help/badges/6381/not-a-robot In case you're ever curious
Apparently, only about 1k users are real people
 
10:30 PM
@Das_Geek Notice how many of those have 1 rep and only that badge :)
 
D:
Probably those who made an account at whatever convention SO was at then never touched it again
Like that free mini-frisbee you got once at a job fair from a company you can't quite remember the name of, and the frisbee lettering is faded so you can't tell anymore
 
@Das_Geek You used that a lot..
 
M--
@Scratte no it's not. But I have posted comments like that. As @Das_Geek said, assume good intentions (it's harder to think otherwise here) and flag as NAA
 
@M-- Thanks. I will :)
 
M--
10:51 PM
I was reading Magic Editor script and it seems that it has the grave accent as code blocks in its placeholders. But still it messes with codes between multiple(3) grave accents (removing multiple ` , adding spaces before the code and only keeping one of the `). Is that a bug, or I am missing something?
 
@M-- Yes, it is a bug, but nobody is there to fix it.
My last CV request is a self-duplicate too.
 
M--
@Dharman I voted as Unclear. Just didn't think closing two question as the dupe of the same post is constructive. Maybe OP will read the link and would clarify why the question is different from the dupe-target.
 
@M-- It doesn't matter really. Closed is closed and it will be roombad anyway. If it is not duplicate it will be deleted quicker.
 
M--
@Dharman good to know. I wanna say I'd take a shot at it, after today being a bit less hectic at work, but I see going back to the "normal" tomorrow
 
M--
11:10 PM
This is not self-promoting, is it stackoverflow.com/a/38305963/6461462?
 
@M-- It looks like spam to me. Two exactly similar answers with strange content
ok, maybe don't flag as spam, but I would edit the link out.
 
@Dharman don't think it's spam, but agree on editing the link out
its overly-self-promoting
its 4 years old stuff anyway
 
M--
11:27 PM
I think there are 3 NAAs on this stackoverflow.com/questions/1857741/… . Is the question itself ok or that's off-topic too? cc:@Dharman php :)
 
@M-- It's a rabbit hole of NAAs. Normally I would say keep it, but this type of question seems to be attracting poor quality answer it seems. Just take a look at the linked questions. I think we should close as too-broad.
While the idea is clear, the details are missing.
 
M--
Makes sense. I cannot post a cv-pls though
 
11:59 PM
There are two comments on the Question. The last two. I can't really make heads or tails of them. I don't see an Image and the phrasing of the last message is very confusing to me. Should I do anything about that?
 
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