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12:05 AM
I don't understand why this is getting deleted in the Low Quality Posts queue.
They state that "JacOrb 3.9 is compatible with JDK 8 and before." meaning it's not compatible with later Java versions.
 
@Scratte Maybe. Still looks pretty low quality to me. Is there anything that's not covered in the linked post?
 
@cigien It's not the same error.
The link to it saying it's an optional solution. I read it as a possible solution. Or rather a workaround.
 
Ah, I see. Still, I don't think that should be any more than a comment. The one you posted seems appropriate.
 
But the point isn't really that there another post. The point is that users deleted an actual attempt of an Answer in the Low Quality Posts queue.
@cigien No. I posted an answer in a comment because others deleted the Answer.
Sometimes I get the impression that there's an impression that short Answers are OK to delete :(
Maybe users should have to read the meta about what not-an-answers and the sanity-in-the-low-quality-posts every 500 reviews.
 
There are millions of post on that on meta... but they never change :)
 
12:20 AM
Then I think something else needs to be done. I see Answers getting deleted a lot from the queue. It's not right.
 
from our friend Undo... (before he was mod)
 
Yes, that's the one I was referring to :)
 
@Scratte I didn't realize you were talking about the LQP queue specifically. I can't really speak to that. As to the comment, if you believe that's an answer then post an answer. Thanks for the very clear attribution in the comment by the way.
 
@Scratte you will not have much meta support by now... users of meta like to delete all :)
 
@cigien If I post that, it will get deleted in the Low Quality Posts queue, because people are deleting real Answers in there. I know.. because it was just deleted.
 
12:21 AM
LQP queue is really good also on deleting code only answer :)
 
@PetterFriberg But at least now users get review suspended for doing that if Samuel sees it :)
What's going to happen is that someone is going to land on that post in about 18 months. They'll assume that nobody knows why this error occurs. Then they may post a "I'm having the same issue. Any update on that". Now.. that Answer should get deleted, but.. it didn't have to have been posted in the first place.
 
@Scratte That one could actually be seen as a comment, user should have vote to close/or flag as duplicate... but yeah you have a point in general
 
Nobody that voted to delete this Answer put as much as a flag or a close vote on the Question.
 
vote to close as dupe and they will not land on that page :)
 
The reason why I'm not flagging it is that I'm not sure it is a duplicate.
 
12:27 AM
@Scratte Yes, I think you're right. The answer should be deleted, but not via "Recommends Deletion" in LQP.
 
What would an Answer look like on the post though? Other than "Those two are just not compatible. What you're trying to do isn't possible"? I mean if you think it's not an Answer because it's just gibberish and they have no clue, then sure. But I don't think that's the case here. I think they know that what the Question author is trying to do is impossible.
 
it's an edge case... however it did get 2 looks ok in queue... just missing the last one...
 
Yes, I saw that after it got deleted only.
 
You always also have an option to raise a moderator flag if you think it was deleted incorrectly by the queue
 
Heh.. 1. Not friends with custom flags. 2. I can't actually flag it, since it's deleted and I'm only a minor :)
And it's not really a solution to the problem which is that people are deleting stuff in the queue that they shouldn't
 
12:32 AM
@Scratte What would a solution to that problem look like?
 
@cigien Perhaps a big banner for a month linking to the meta posts. And a "Samuel campaign"
 
@Scratte I think the ineffectiveness of banners is abundantly clear. A "Samuel Campaign" might work; I don't know if that's something they have the time/energy/inclination to attempt.
 
@cigien The "Samuel campaign" doesn't need to be done by Samuel :)
 
@cigien How can it get deleted, if there was no 20kers?
 
I am getting the feeling that 10K users get access to lots of actual Answers. That's really sad. I do not think that's the point of Stack Overflow at all.
@Braiam My point is that it shouldn't have gotten deleted at all.
 
12:38 AM
@Scratte That's true :)
@Braiam If there are not enough users with the necessary privileges to complete a certain action, that action will not be completed. I'm not sure what you're asking exactly.
 
The other sad thing is that when moderators are about, those Answers are saved from the delete-it-all-queue.
@PetterFriberg I knew I had an issue with .intern() before :) It returns a new reference. Using it on a String that's already a variable doesn't change the reference of that variable :)
 
@cigien That the system wasn't designed that way. That's why moderators come in as excepction handlers.
If there's an answer that has to be deleted, it should get deleted, by any means possible.
 
1:01 AM
@PetterFriberg I used to delete those, but now I tell off other users for doing so :)
 
@Braiam I'm not sure I follow that logic. I will sometimes delete answers that should absolutely not be deleted in LQP, or by anyone who is not an SME in the relevant tags on that post.
 
I honestly think the LQP queue should be 7k or something... majority of 2kers don't know how the site works. 99% are just rep helpers who answer every single question they see :(
Including me, of course. I used to recommend the deletion of almost everything.
 
@10Rep Very much the case for me as well :p
 
@Braiam I do not agree with that at all.
@10Rep I think that will not help. The deleters of this particular post were not all low reputation users.
@10Rep And the fdw extension one just got deleted too.
 
@Scratte I retracted my flag on that one, honest :). I think a mod may have deleted that, as everyone disagreed with me in sobotics that it was NAA.
I'm prepared to accept the word that that answer had useful information.
 
1:11 AM
@Scratte I don't think you're going to be happy with how that got deleted.
 
@cigien Moderators make mistakes too. Some times they're called out on meta.
But since it went pink in my tab with no comment from the delete-it-all-queue, I had my suspicions about how it got deleted.
 
@Scratte I've seen some moderators say that they are more... open about NAA's. Answers that aren't strictly NAA but are flagged as such will be deleted by them and the flag marked helpful.
 
@10Rep It may have had more than one flag, so it's not all on you.
@10Rep Yeah, but that doesn't make any sense. I will put that down to "Being too quick"
 
@Scratte Here's the comment: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/403251/…. The moderator who posted it is a very good moderator, to clarify.
I don't think its "too quick", personally.
For instance, I would love to know how this is link only: stackoverflow.com/a/65331860/12708583
 
@10Rep Because it was link only until the code was added a minute ago?
 
1:21 AM
Ah, should have checked the revision history
 
@10Rep Ehh.. "low-key trolling" and the next comment "even tend to go rude/abusive" is not exactly the same as the post we were talking about here :) "What to do when a complicated question is answered with print(“Hello World”)?"
 
But the point I'm trying to make is that mods think differently about NAA's. Heck, even normal users think differently.
 
@10Rep I'm pretty sure moderators go with When to flag an answer as “not an answer”
The Answer in that particular one was removed due to other reasons if I understand that meta correctly. I mean if I post "int i = 0;" under a post about how to make stuff move about in a webpage, I'd expect someone to assume I was just trolling.
 
@cigien I will refer you to Cody's "just get rid of it" sermon.
 
1:30 AM
Obviously, you disagree with that. I'm on the camp of "if it's getting deleted, who cares how it was deleted?"
 
@10Rep Ahh.. It is :) If you talk to Natty :) But if you want to flag it, you can go with NAA or R/A
 
LQP is as good as any method to delete stuff that shouldn't be on the site. Why impose a restriction that the system do not have?
 
@Braiam I do not think any of those two posts were crap.
Linking to that message doesn't change that.
 
@Braiam Because sometimes wrong answers may not be wrong. There's no guarantee that the answer deleted was useless.
 
@10Rep We aren't talking about that...
Do not mix both.
 
1:33 AM
Umm, the two are related. Code only answers are deleted in LQP. 2k users cannot make that decision to delete such answers.
 
That's the grave mistake with Undo's post, it went from "we don't delete wrong answers because they are wrong" to "we don't delete any answer if they look like one".
A post can be a not answer to the question and not wrong. They aren't orthogonal properties.
 
You're always arguing that we should deleting anything under the sun despite the policy. But this conversation is about how to enforce the actual policy.
 
That's why we delete post that aren't even wrong. They just don't belong on the answer section they are posted to.
 
@Braiam If the post is NAA but correct, how is it naa?!?
 
That is a different conversation. The two Answers I posted here addressed the Questions.
 
1:35 AM
@10Rep Simple, it is the correct answer to another question ;)
It's like answering "42" to "how to print hello world in python?"
 
@10Rep Ehh.. A correct Answer cannot be Not An Answer.
 
@Scratte My point exactly.
 
@Braiam There's 2 issues with that. First, it only covers crap: There are answers worthy of deletion that are not crap. Second, note that Cody is a moderator, and as such, can easily fix it if they make a mistake. As a regular user, I can't do that and so am much more careful about what I delete.
 
@Braiam We let Subject Matter Experts handle those outside the queue. It's not for users inside the queue because they're from all different kinds of technical backgrounds. Having users that doesn't know about LINQ deleting Answers to LINQ Questions is a bad idea.
 
@cigien If you think that, you will never delete anything ;)
Shog flag description captured it best: "This was posted as an answer, but it does not address the problem being asked about."
 
1:38 AM
@Braiam But I do think that, and I delete a lot.
 
^ these kind of answers should be deleted.
 
@Braiam You haven't even seen the Answers we were discussing.
 
@cigien Just the non-controversial. I like to do that to anything.
 
@Braiam The answers @Scratte is discussing were adressing the problem. Plus, only Subject Matter Experts can know that for sure.
 
If something can be deleted, because it's closed, or it doesn't address the problem being asked about, all of them should be deleted. What way? Whichever possible.
@10Rep Well, then moderators shouldn't delete anything either, because they aren't subject matter experts.
 
1:40 AM
The issue is that users delete things because the think it's not the right Answer. It's a very slippery slope and a very bad idea.
 
@Braiam AFAIK, mods only delete NAA answers and answers that they are Subject Matter experts in.
Plus, that isn't even the discussion
 
@10Rep Well, you introduced the topic.
 
@Braiam That's a silly argument. The Answers moderators and the queue deletes (suppose to only delete) aren't answering anything. They're questions, thank-yous..
 
@Braiam That is true :)
 
We expect users to address issues they have some knowledge about. Where do that leave moderators that delete all kind of posts they aren't even knowledgeable about?
 
1:42 AM
@Scratte That wasn't an answer. At best, it was a comment on another answer.
 
@10Rep Also, that's not true.
 
@Scratte when Braiam makes these statements he's not worried about collateral or addressing possible contradictions.
 
@Makyen You mean their own other Answer? Which says the same thing, just opposite?
 
@bad_coder Yes, that's the general impression I get.
 
1:45 AM
@Braiam I think that's really wrong. If an answer isn't NAA, then it should only be deleted by SME's.
 
@Braiam I don't have time to read that. If would be helpful if you could give a short summary. and a title so I can find it later. "The Community vs. The Domain Expert"
 
@Braiam no one should spend much time reading meta, and throwing a post isn't addressing an objection. There's a measure of sportsmanship necessary to sustain a conversation that avoids it degenerating into an exchange of arguments.
 
@bad_coder Au contraire mon amie, I'm painfully aware of the contradiction of a site that says that value quality, and is at the same time unable to prune what should be pruned.
@bad_coder Well, knowledge of the ancients is what we should built our arguments on, and in this case, these topics have been discussed before.
 
@Braiam (Because in the limit there's no longer a conversation, just arguments being thrown around. And that's the point where it all degenerates, becoming pointless.)
 
@Scratte Their other answer talks about the "dblink" extension. It is the other answer which talks about the "FDW extension". The only thing the answer which was deleted said was that the "FDW extension is supported in GCP Cloud SQL". It didn't say anything else. It didn't indicate why that matters or why people should care. Very specifically, it doesn't say that the extension solves the problem.
 
1:47 AM
@Braiam The thing about "pruning what should be pruned" is that it often just removed information that someone can use to solve their issue.
@Makyen Ahh.. it's the wrapper, if I understood it correctly.
 
@bad_coder Well, then what are you thinking we are discussing. I'm addressing arguments by three users building upon all the ideas and arguments that has been posted in meta and making an excerpt it for consumption on the discussion.
 
@Braiam How do you know that something should be pruned? For instance, if I see a question "How to access javascript reload", and an answer goes, "Use this wrapper", then how do I know it should be pruned if I know python?
 
I believe, that to discuss this topic, much more reading is necessary, I'm just offering a shortcut. You can take it.
 
@Braiam You're arguing to just delete whatever comes in the queue at a whim. Not being held responsible for it by any measurable metric but just that "it looks like crap", right? Which is the message you started linking to.
 
@10Rep You don't. That's the main issue. People without the knowledge are using dogma to blanket prohibit any pruning at all!
 
1:50 AM
@Braiam My friend, I will start by acknowledging exactly that. (But I wouldn't call anything posted on meta knowledge, nor are posters exactly ancient. Shog9 once said some of them are "grotesque", I know a prominent Meta poster in real life, he's one of most vilest persons it's been my displeasure to meet.)
 
@Braiam Deleting answers is dangerous if one doesn't know about it's usefulness.
 
@bad_coder In our country there's a saying that even a madman can have good ideas.
 
Just because it looks like crap, doesn't mean it is crap. One needs more evidence in order to say that it's actually crap.
 
@Braiam Are you saying that we need to be experts on the topic of NAA and the meta posts you link in order to discuss if we should just delete stuff we know nothing about?
 
Just because you dislike the messenger, the message doesn't lose validity.
@10Rep That's why you should abstain of such decisions, and allow others to take it.
@10Rep Which is why, you leave those matters to experts.
 
1:53 AM
On a side note, are there any compressed audio formats that do not include metadata?
 
I've been very coherent with that, I've been asking since years back that the review queues prefer people that has the adequate knowledge to make a sensible review.
 
@Braiam The experts are not the ones deleting the posts in the queue.
 
@Cardinal-ReinstateMonica I doubt you will find that here.
 
I was worth a shot ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Heated argument happening here..... most likely not gonna end.
 
1:55 AM
I will go look somewhere else. Have fun with the argument :P
 
I also gtg, have a class
 
@Cardinal-ReinstateMonica the problem with that is that metadata is necessary for the trans-coders to know when it should start-stop processing a sample
 
@Braiam So.. we don't have that. Then it's reasonable to look at what is going on in the current circumstances. Arguing for how users should behave under completely different circumstances is pointless.
I'd assume metadata is also necessary to know what kind of compression is being used at all.
 
@Braiam You're making a blanket statement here that I disagree with completely. Consider this answer, and an image since it's deleted.
I definitely think the answer should be deleted, as my vote shows. OTOH, I would be quite upset if it got deleted in review. Or for that matter, by anyone I don't recognize as a regular in that tag. So no, just because content should be deleted because it doesn't address the problem, does not imply that any means of deleting it is acceptable.
 
@Braiam Not strictly for all formats. It also depends on what one considers "compressed". For example, μ-law and A-law encodings are dynamic range compression formats which don't include any meta data beyond the meta data that is inherent is saying "use this formatting to decode". However, that's not meta data which is contained within the file.
 
2:10 AM
People are posting meta Questions about not getting their hats :D
 
@Braiam hmm, that makes sense
I would clarify, than
When I say I want no metadata, what I mean is that I do not want the ID3 tags
 
2:23 AM
@cigien And that's the problem. If you agree with the destination, why should we care with which road we take? The result will be the same. What frustrate me the most is that somehow someone believes that delete via delete votes is somehow different that via review. They are both one and the same: they get the post soft deleted.
Looking at it from a efficient use of votes, 20kers should only delete questions, since they are the only one that can do that. Reviewers can delete answers by themselves: the system allows them to.
There's literally no reason why review should be barred from doing what we allow 20kers.
 
3:01 AM
@Braiam In general, I do not believe that the end justifies the means. Delete votes are very different than via review, because delete votes are often cast by SMEs, who are comfortable evaluating the answer in the context of the tags they frequent. That is simply not true of the vast majority of reviewers in the queues.
The reason I care is that I do not want them deleting posts such as the one I linked to, because they are not qualified to make that decision. If they start making those calls, they will start deleting content that shouldn't be, and that to me is not an acceptable trade-off.
In other words, I would rather have some delete-worthy content floating around, to avoid any non-delete-worthy content getting deleted.
 
@Braiam Both 20k and 10k users can delete-vote questions. Only 20k users can delete-vote answers. Answers can also be deleted from review.
 
3:25 AM
Ah.. I think I know how I got my hat :D
 
3:49 AM
A puppy.. not wearing the Social Distancing? :)
 
oh... is that what those were for... I thought it tasted funny...
 
I think perhaps on puppies they call them gags.. :P
@IanCampbell Long time no visit. Good to see you :)
 
4:18 AM
Haha, yes, sometimes I accidentally click this bookmark out of habit. This chat channel is bad for my productivity.
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Oh. Yes. It is for mine too.. Perhaps I should follow your lead.
Though I learned a lot about Stack from this room
 
4:34 AM
@AdrianMole I'm having the same problem. Have you been able to resolve it yet?
@code11 Note that if an answer you downvoted is deleted, you get the rep back that the downvote cost you.
:51170780 It is preferred that such edits be evaluated by an SME. If the edit is correct and improves the post, then you're OK to approve it. If not, then it should be rejected and they should be told to leave a comment instead of an edit. In practice, most of these edits get rejected because most suggested edit reviewers are not SMEs and it doesn't scale well to require everyone to skip when they're not an SME.
@Scratte No, you aren't the only one. I have the exact same problem. It's very frustrating. I wish the "side by side" option applied to titles, too. I don't know why it doesn't. Too bad you don't post Meta questions; this could get you a hat.
@Makyen That works well for you because you have immediate reject privileges as a mod. That's a less compelling strategy for a regular reviewer, who would have to reject and then track the post until they could make the necessary edit. That's why "Reject and Edit" was put in place. The real bug is that "Reject and Edit" doesn't allow you to leave a custom rejection reason.
@PetterFriberg Yes, too many people are unfamiliar with the concept of "dislike". I don't know why, because those same people "dislike" plenty of things. I very much disagree it's harder now to post a first question than it once was. If anything, it's easier. The interface is better, the community is more established, there is actually on-site help, etc.
Part of the problem with social media is precisely that there is no "dislike" button. This vastly skews the perception of popularity, because the only people voting are people who like it.
@mickmackusa If that is indeed a duplicate, why does the solution provided by both of the answers to it (implode) not appear at all in any of the answers on the other page?
@Vickel This is not the consensus. Stack Overflow is a collaboratively edited site. A big feature here is that answers can be improved by other knowledgeable members of the community editing them. If we forbid all edits to code, then we shoot ourselves in the foot. So, no, you should not be rejecting edits to answers just because they change code. You should only be rejecting them when you're sure they are harmful and/or violate the author's intent.
(No author ever intends to provide broken/incorrect code.)
In general, and I see @Makyen as a key offender here, I think there is way too much hostility towards seemingly minor edits. The "too minor" reject reason was removed a long time ago. Search Meta and read all sorts of reasons why minor edits can still be useful, including several nice posts by Shog9. Note that the suggested edit interface already has a built-in feature to avoid edits that are clearly too minor: the edit must change more than 6 characters.
If it's been submitted, and it's not harmful, then it's probably a good edit and you should be approving it.
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Now, there is the little fact that sometimes well-meaning minor edits can be harmful because of bugs in (or at least poor design of) the system, for example, where a minor edit to a closed question robs it of a fair shake through the reopen queues. I feel bad about rejecting those, because it's not the editor's fault, but I think the position is defensible.
But when someone improves the formatting of the code, that's still a good edit, even if they didn't also correct misspellings. If you want to improve it, go ahead; you have that option. But the fact that the edit isn't perfect, doesn't fix 100% of things, is not a rejection reason. Your criteria is, does this leave the post better than it found it?
Edits you should be rejecting as "no improvement whatsoever" are those that... do not improve the post in any whatsoever. Like "bumping" edits that add invisible whitespace. Or edits that apply inline code formatting to random words. Or other formatting explosions (which happen way too often to suit me). Or edits that only change BrE spellings to AmE.
 
@CodyGray No. Everyone has been able to force an edit for years. I believe that may have changed recently, but I am not sure about that change.
 
Hmm, I don't consider hacking around the system to be a supported feature...
With that logic, everyone has been able to evade question bans by creating new accounts for years.
 
@CodyGray It's always been supported from the links provided in the history page.
@CodyGray Where did I say that an edit was too minor and should be rejected? I know I've said that I think something is too minor to encourage people with < 2k to do the edit. As is general policy, suggested edits should fix all problems with a post. However, I don't believe I've said that an edit should be rejected because it's too minor. Perhaps I have, but I don't recall doing so.
An example where < 2k users are encouraged to do things other than edit is on burninations. For those, < 2k users are encouraged to participate in some way other than just removing tags.
 
4:53 AM
I do not ever remember seeing that documented anywhere, despite reading hundreds of discussions on MSE (which was at the time MSO) when suggested edits were announced. Given how not-well-known the feature is, I remain unconvinced that it's a valid use of the system (rather than exploiting a bug/loophole), and I certainly don't think it's fair to expect reviewers to use it.
@Makyen You said it pretty clearly about <2K rep users in the transcript above that I was just reading.
You argued multiple times that different edits should have been rejected because they were too minor.
Like an edit that removed leading whitespace from a code block.
Or an edit that inlined images.
Maybe there's some more nuance to your views on it that I'm missing, I don't know.
But it certainly seems to me like you're encouraging reviewers to reject edits that seem too minor, whereas I thought we had settled that debate years ago by removing the "too minor" rejection reason.
 
@CodyGray I said "although I'm not sure it was worth a suggested edit". I didn't say an already existing suggested edit should be rejected because it was too minor.
I did say that an edit which changed British English to American English should be rejected.
I did say that an edit which went out of its way to change one type of valid Markdown formatting to another type of valid Markdown formatting (which resulted in the same displayed text in the post) should be rejected.
 
Most editors just use the markdown that they're most comfortable with. If they're making an improvement (like reducing leading whitespace), I don't see why the kind of markdown they choose matters.
A very large number of people do not understand how our 4-space indent code formatting syntax ever worked, and they think that is part of the problem why the code is improperly indented, so they remove it, replacing it with what they think is the more "standard" code formatting. Is that really a problem?
 
@CodyGray because the OP doesn't know the tool to do the job. They are saying that implode isn't working for them. I reckon the answerers are misled by the phrasing of the question/ failed coding attempt.
 
It's very similar to not changing American English to British English or not wholesale changing the code indentation style of the post. Edits should work with what the OP has already provided.
 
Changing the markdown is invisible in the final result. I see that as very different from changing from dialects of English, which is very visible to the reader.
@Scratte That's some moderators. In particular, that's the "safe" guidance, the way to ensure that your NAA flags will not get rejected by moderators. That does not limit how moderators individually decide to handle NAA flags. There are cases, and individuals among us, who will indulge NAA flags on posts of types not mentioned in that Meta FAQ.
The canonical example is that I will delete Python answers to C++ questions in response to a NAA flag, although not all mods will. That means it's not a "safe" case to use a NAA flag, because whether it's helpful or declined will depend on which mod handles the flag.
That said, I do agree with you that this does not seem to be a link-only answer, and I do not see any compelling reason why it needs to be deleted. On the other hand, moderators are users, too, and users with subject-matter expertise (including 20k+ users) are given delete-vote privileges for a reason...
Yes, this is an issue. Answers shouldn't even be deleted for being "not the right answer". That's a downvote reason, not a deletion reason.
The thing is, it is just as dangerous for you, looking on, to assume that the deleters made an assumption when voting to delete.
Maybe you're missing something. For example, had I overrode Sam's decision and un-deleted that answer on the basis of it not being a link-only answer, I would have been wrong, because I'd have missed the additional context that Makyen saw, and presumably Sam also saw, and used to inform his decision to delete.
 
5:16 AM
@CodyGray That "answer" doesn't actually answer the question. It might be intended to answer the question, but it doesn't. Even if it is an answer, at best it repeats the other answer from a month earlier. It could reasonably be a comment on that answer.
 
Right, yes, getting there. :-)
The answer wasn't deleted for being link-only. It was deleted for being not an answer but merely a comment. Yet, Scratte saw it as being not link-only, thus not subject to deletion. I also saw his point. And yet I missed the real point, which is the other reason why it should have been deleted.
Which is why it is equally as hazardous to go around second-guessing the decisions of people to delete unless you know as much about it as they do.
 
@CodyGray Yep, our comments passed in the ether. :)
 
I'm just slow. I keep getting distracted in trying to read the transcript. And not even with something as fun as hats.
 
:)
 
Have we figured out how to earn Mariachi?
 
5:18 AM
We've figured out several triggers that will not earn you Mariachi.
 
I actually would have said you're fairly fast, rather than slow.
 
It gets longer every day. :-\
 
Could it be "Have your birthday party at a Mexican restaurant"?
 
No. I haven't done that.
But it could be "eat at a Mexican restaurant > 3 times this week, and pretty much every week", because I've definitely done that.
Seems weird it would suddenly be > 3, though. The SE team seems to prefer < 3.
@cigien While I understand your argument here, and probably mostly agree with it, I have to ask: what would happen if you came across that answer in the review queues? Would you not vote to delete it, even though you clearly think it should be deleted?
 
@CodyGray Good question. I don't know much about the queues, and certainly not LQP, but I do know that this doesn't qualify for "Recommend Deletion" according to the LQP policy. So I would probably "Skip" it in review, and then go to the actual post, and vote to delete it there.
This is related to the ongoing conversation we've been having about how audits work in queues, in that the correct action/response I should be taking is not necessarily what I would do with the same content if I came across it outside the queues.
 
5:31 AM
I have a term for that. Do you know what it is?
"Fundamentally broken"
 
I take it you're referring to how the queues work, and not my argument.
 
Agreed, I just let Sam skip them for me.
 
The whole darn thing.
That "the correct action/response I should be taking is not necessarily what I would do with the same content if I came across it outside the queues".
That literally misses the whole point of everything, which is to review and curate content, with the overall goal being to improve the quality of content on the site.
 
I'll admit that sometimes I will actively not choose "Looks OK" in the hopes that some other people will vote to delete even if I don't think it meets the technical criteria for "Recommend Deletion".
 
That's reasonable, I guess.
But not choosing to delete when you think it should be deleted? That's insanity.
 
5:35 AM
But what choice does one have? Take the specific answer we're talking about. If that were an audit, and I chose "Recommend Deletion", I would fail the audit. What am I supposed to do?
 
Be right. Have integrity. Make the decisions you can defend as correct.
3
If that means you occasionally fail an audit, well, then, it does. There are bum audits. You'll fail eventually, unless you work up an elaborate plan to outsmart the system, and then you're like Scratte, doing all this work and expending all this energy in the wrong direction.
 
Man, that is some insidious spam. I would have missed it.
 
Yes. You have to know that R-HUB is an ongoing spam "event".
 
I see that my previous message makes it look like I'm complaining. That's fair, but I'm not really. I'm personally quite happy with how I've been handling the queues so far, and that is mostly to not go there. I have considered coming up with ways of beating the audit system, and I'm sure I could pull it off, but as you say, it's probably not worth the effort, and so I choose to expend my curation efforts in other ways.
 
I'm complaining! Not you. I'm not sure why you aren't, so I am.
You're worse than complaining. You've adapted to the broken system. :-(
But, yeah, not going there... that does work, and it's the strategy I chose a long while back.
Still, that doesn't make it any less of a thing to complain about.
 
5:42 AM
Hey, the reopen queue can be fun sometimes.
 
Frankly, though, if you're diligent about curating your tag(s) of interest, that's way better in my opinion than people who just work the review queues. Your impact is greater, and we're benefiting more from your deep subject-matter expertise.
What Peter Cordes and Michael Petch do for x86 assembly language questions? No single or pair of reviewers could hold a candle to that level of curation.
The C++ tag is also pretty good, just because of the depth of expertise and high level of engagement.
You, or Peter, or Michael, or Sam (not the moderator, the C++ gold badge holder) could easily spend a half-hour going through the review queues and making mostly-correct decisions on a large swath of posts. That would certainly be helpful. But not nearly as helpful as what they do every day out there on their tags.
 
I don't think that's entirely fair. If I was gaming the system by getting around audits then I'd agree, but I'm simply not interacting with the queues at all, which is different. As to the complaining, well... there's certainly cause to complain. Something is clearly wrong. But I'm not a fan of complaining about something unless I have something new to add, or some concrete suggestions for improvement. I have neither with regards to review queues. Don't think that means I'm happy about it.
Yes, we are very much in agreement that participating in tags where I'm an SME is a better use of my time than queues, and I do spend a majority of my time on SE on those tags.
Though I am getting very distracted by Smokey these days.
@CodyGray Very true. That's a level of curation I aspire to.
 
7:17 AM
@rene ah right. sorry. My bad
 
@CodyGray Now mods have a diamond next to their names not only in main and meta but also in chat! It's convenient for it to be more obvious. Though perhaps this still doesn't solve the problem of SO chat being on a different system and non-SO mods in the network appearing like regular users here.
 
@user1271772 It makes sense that they would not appear any different here. Non-SO mods don't have any special privileges on the SO chat server.
 
@CodyGray okay
 
@JeanneDark I'm thinking that is narrowed down enough to be a practical programming question. The "best" isn't really meant to take a poll. They just want to know which database meets their requirements. Those types of questions are OK, as long as the requirements are well defined.
But I'm not 100% certain. Just not going to hammer it.
 
@CodyGray I think right before you hammered this question: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/51174446#51174446, I commented on it, suggesting a possible destination where the question could get answered
 
7:26 AM
@user1271772 OK?
 
@CodyGray Perhaps you could consider to migrate the question?
Many of the high-performance questions in that tag don't necessarily have to do with MM, for example: mattermodeling.stackexchange.com/q/2112/5
 
I'm not sure I want to do that. I have never been to the site you recommend, so I don't feel very comfortable moving questions over there. I don't know how they feel about recommendation-style questions, and the question itself seems to be well outside of their scope.
 
So... showing me that questions exist on a site doesn't really prove anything. Stack Overflow probably has thousands of questions on our site that violate our minimum expectations/requirements for questions.
 
I was the original one to propose the site: area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/122958/matter-modeling, and have the highest rep there by about 4k higher than the next highest
@CodyGray Sure but all those questions were well very received on the site
 
7:32 AM
I see. Well, a site description of "Q&A site for materials design and spectroscopy" is pretty constraining, if you want to discuss anything related to high-performance computing.
Isn't there already a high-performance computing SE site?
 
@CodyGray There's not. You might be thinking of ComputationalScience.SE but it's much more about numerical methods.
@CodyGray I appreciate that, but that description was chosen by Robert Cartaino without our input during A51, and we never discussed on Meta what to change it to (there's been too many other things to discuss on Meta first, since the site just went live in 2020)
 
@user1271772 I see. Thanks for the explanation. Well, as an outsider, I'd suggest that agreeing upon a clearly-defined scope for your site (one that outsiders can understand) should be elevated in your priority list. It's going to be very hard to recruit people to your site (and even harder to persuade them to ask a question) if it's not abundantly clear to them what your site is about.
 
@CodyGray I agree. It's something we should do sooner rather than later.
 
I am still not comfortable migrating this. It's worth noting that, in general, moderators don't do a lot of migrations. There's little advantage in doing so, versus the asker just re-posting the question on the site, unless there are answers or something that would be lost.
This one was caught and closed early enough that not only are there not any answers, but there aren't even any votes to preserve.
I think your comment is fine.
 
Okay, I did message all three moderators but 2 of them are asleep at this hour and one of them is away from the desk.
 
7:45 AM
I could as well have migrated it to Super User or something, so I think the asker needs to decide where they really want to ask it.
 
By the way: about there already being a "High Performance SE", the question was asked on Meta.SE, but deleted:
By community
 
Ah, direct link is here. I've voted to undelete that. I think it is a useful MSE question.
 
@CodyGray I thought it was not just a recommendation question but maybe also not entirely on topic (I found this MSO question) since it's not really about programming.
 
@JeanneDark Oh, hmm, good point. It might be too much about databases and not enough about programming. I am not sure. (All that Meta Q&A says is don't migrate stuff that isn't off-topic. We all knew that already. :-))
 
@CodyGray I'm not sure why exactly it was deleted. I was extremely new to the SE Network at the time. You can see how naive I was by trying to tag Robert Cartaino even though he had never commented or edited on the question yet!
 
7:56 AM
@user1271772 This Help Center article explains why it was deleted. Basically, it was more than 30 days old, had a negative score, and had no answers. (It did have one answer, but that answer was deleted by its author, so at the time the question was evaluated for automatic cleanup by the Community user, it effectively had no answers.)
 
The MSE question "Where should MathJax questions go?" has a net score of 13 and the question "Where should Developer Computer Setup questions go?" has a net score of 10. My question had a net score of -1 ( +1 and -2), but for Meta.SE that's not too bad.
Okay I see. So it wasn't deleted due to "too many flags saying it's a low-quality question"
 
Yeah, I'm not especially likely to upvote "Where can I ask my question?" questions, but yours was actually well put together and covered something more broad than a single question that you personally wanted to ask.
@user1271772 No, Community doesn't delete questions on that basis. If you see a post deleted by Community, then it was either deleted by the auto-cleanup process (called "roomba", after the electronic autonomous vacuum cleaner product) following the criteria on the linked Help Center page, or it was deleted by spam/rude flags (but if that were the case, you'd see that clearly indicated).
 
I see. I think I if I wrote it now it would be much better received. I had very little experience with MSE back then.
 
Well, you could always re-post and we could forget about undeleting that one. :-)
 
You're tempting me :) It's 3AM here in Toronto though.
 
8:01 AM
No rush.
It's soon past my bedtime as well. If I was smart enough to follow a schedule.
 
@user1271772 please note that our room discourages, if not forbid, the use of one-boxes, specially images. That is also mentioned in our FAQ. Going forward please refrain from uploading or posting bare links to images in our transcript. Thanks
 
Fixed by the power of the diamond.
 
Thanks for that.
 
Why can't ROs edit messages in a chat-room? Seems like a reasonable power to have.
 
@cigien Because nothing about chat moderation is "reasonable".
 
8:10 AM
serve and smash
 
Hi, @rene! Thank you for wearing a mask, but it looks like you are wearing it upside down and in the wrong location...
 
flags message for linking to a disturbing image
 
Before the 2 ROs who are mods became mods how did y'all fix things like that? Or were there usually mods hanging around?
 
@cigien Why do you think SOCVR /dev/null exists? Because ROs don't have power to edit or delete messages, every chat room ends up having to just shunt its unwanted content over to a "trash" room.
For when you have time to kill, there's an MSE FAQ on moderating chat, which explains all of the gory details limitations.
 
I thought it was for content that wasn't suitable for the transcript, but not bad enough to need to disappear. But I see now.
 
8:16 AM
@cigien Kinda. If it's really bad, then it can be flagged, which will have the effect of deleting it, but perhaps also other consequences, too. Mostly it's just a workaround for the fact that there's no way for ROs to remove messages, though.
 
Sometimes I tried a chat flag but the box is tiny and often it is not worth the bother.
 
I can never remember if validating a chat flag will nuke the account and suspend the user from chatting for 6-8, so it's kinda scary every time they pop up. :-)
 
Is this an NAA/Link Only? IMO yes. Suggest if I am wrong.
 
@AmitJoshi Ehhh... it's pretty close to being link-only, but not entirely. It seems that the sentence there is an attempt to answer. Flagging it as NAA risks a mod declining that flag.
It seems to me the entire question is off-topic?
 
8:33 AM
@CodyGray That's very useful, thanks.
 
@cigien My favorite part is the parenthetical "yes, this is subjective — let your conscience be your guide". Three guesses who added that, and the first two don't count.
Hmm, that may be unfair. I don't know if you've been around long enough to be able to guess who without all 3 attempts.
 
Actually, I have no idea. Any guess would be as good as the other. Of course, I looked, and the rev history says Shog9 added it.
I take it that's something I could have worked out if I'd been around longer?
I'm a little surprised that ROs can kick-mute each other. That seems odd.
 
hi, is it ok to ask here for a pair of eyes to review this reopen request? OP edited and i invested some time to find an answer: stackoverflow.com/questions/65297584/…
 
8:49 AM
@RetoHöhener sure, properly speaking you would tag that as [tag:reopen-pls] and just dump it here for us to look at; see also the room FAQ links etc for details
 
@RetoHöhener I had a very quick look. The question seems improved but it's closed as a dupe. Does the dupe target not answer it?
 
@RetoHöhener Yes, you can ask in here. You shouldn't be adding answers to the question. If the question is worthy of being reopened, you can post request in here.
 
@cigien Yeah, you'd recognize Shog9's writing style, much as you might recognize mine.
 
sorry about that. didn't see the faq link, even though i specifically looked for instructions 🙈
i just needed a place to store my answer, i will convert to answer once reopened, of course
it's not a duplicate in my opinion
 
@RetoHöhener I understand, but that's not really the right mechanism. You can add a comment that you have a solution, or that you think the duplicate closure is incorrect.
 
8:53 AM
@RetoHöhener I'm certainly not an expert and also just had a quick look. So, I was just asking. If you think it's not a dupe, then feel free to do a [tag:reopen-pls] for it.
 
@RetoHöhener No harm done this time, but you should store future/potential answers off-site. StackEdit is an in-browser Markdown editor that should support the same formatting as Stack Overflow does. There's no excuse for doing something against the site rules, even just temporarily.
@RetoHöhener The question should be edited to explain how/why it is not a duplicate. That's the key thing it is missing to justify reopening.
 
ok, will do
thank you
 
We typically suggest that the asker add these extra details about why their question is not a duplicate of the suggested one, but anyone can do it.
 
@CodyGray re: stack edit - does SE support that Mermaid thing for UML diagrams? (went to stackedit.io/app# and scrolled to the bottom). It looks awesome, I'd love it if it can be used on SO.
 
he provided the info why it is not a duplicate in a comment, but i will add it to an edit
 
8:55 AM
@VLAZ I doubt it is supported by SE. I think I saw a feature request for it some time back on MSE, if I'm remembering correctly.
@RetoHöhener Excellent. Good idea.
 
@CodyGray thanks. I actually just found it. Not added yet, there was a request but there were concerns about load times. A shame but understandable. /off-topic
 
Honestly, I can't think of many uses for it, outside of snarky Meta posts. But that may just be the types of questions I tend to answer.
 
@CodyGray I can sometimes. It gets trickier when it's a short snippet inside a collaborative edit.
@RetoHöhener It's much better, but you should remove the first sentence. Think of it this way: future visitors don't need to know that the question was originally closed and then reopened.
 
i thought i would remove the whole reopen info again, no?
and thanks
 
You can include the link to the ex-dup for the clarity
 
9:10 AM
ok, thank you very much for your support
 
@RetoHöhener No, leave the 2 bullet points, they're useful. And as Vega points out, add the link as well.
 
o/
 
9:23 AM
I like to try and work the "why this is not a duplicate" explanation into the question organically, as if it was asked that way from the start. I've made some edits to the question towards that end. cc @RetoHöhener
(I also deleted the obsolete comments, now that the question has been edited and reopened.)
Thanks for asking for help and being willing to listen to feedback!
 
@CodyGray I was wondering how long it would be until you started flexing your muscles. :-)
 
@AdrianMole It should not take too long if we work up a bit to get that hat. :-)
 
Heh. The good old $0 TextBox. Back from the days when Stack Overflow was still snarky.
@AdrianMole I got the idea from Dharman. We've been working out together.
 
9:39 AM
@CodyGray ok, thanks again for looking into it!
 
@CodyGray Though, I have to say, the Chimney Sweep seemed to fit your avatar almost perfectly.
 
@AdrianMole That's because you haven't seen Snaphat.
 
I remember that one from last year. But we don't seem to have The Merlin, this time. :(
 
The propeller beanie fits like a glove.
 
do I look fat in this balalaika?
 
9:47 AM
A triangular banjo seems appropriate.
 
@AdrianMole Appropriate for what, exactly?
 
@CodyGray For a triangle-based avatar.
 
10:02 AM
This is a comment, right? stackoverflow.com/a/65338413/11573842
 
10:31 AM
 
 
1 hour later…
11:35 AM
Deleted my earlier message because that question is deleted by OP.
 
Looking at their last deleted question - I don't think they're trying to be abusive... they just sadly seem somewhat clueless as to how to ask an actual question
 
11:53 AM
Would you consider this NAA?
 
More VLQ to me
 
@CodyGray You're probably right. My energy should be spent on something entirely different than this site. But talking about spending energy on all the wrong things. I'm not sure what exactly you mean by that. Most of it is spent on chat. I used to spend it in the queues, but I feel it's a waste of my time. But this isn't a job, it's a hobby, so how does one spend the time "wrong"?
The energy spent of figuring out if I should have pressed "Looks OK" on the code edit was wasted though, as there's no consensus and getting another review suspension seems inevitable if spending time in the queue. Saving my time by not reviewing that queue seems to be the best option. In general one never gets punished for inaction here. And no punishment is rewarding on it's own :)
@cigien At the moment a lot of my style changes are all in one file which is somewhat messy. If you're interested, I may find the time to identify and separate out the bits that revert the orange buttons and put them in a pastebin. But I'm not inclined to post an Answer to the meta.
 
@TomerShetah avoid oneboxing.
 
@SurajRao What do you mean?
 
@TomerShetah id you post the url by itself it generate the onebox. Please read socvr.org/faq#GEfM-clean-transcript
 
12:07 PM
@SurajRao I see. I wasn't aware of that. Won't happen again! Thanks!
 

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