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7:00 AM
Hiya
 
HIya
 
user4639281
HiYa
 
-76 votes and 16 answers, my my thats a hot button issue
@Cerbrus I also posted an answer
 
@Queen k
@Tiny I once asked about this. Its somehow related to my seemingly inherent racism.
 
Morning
 
user4639281
7:06 AM
I remember seeing that
 
I think there actually is a correlation regarding that very common name in India and Pakistan and VLQ questions. Just never proven that with a SEDE query.
 
That may be because there are more software developers (by number) in these countries
 
user4639281
^ that seems likely
 
@Magisch thanks for pinging Charcoal! I knew there is the room for that but couldn't recall its name. Tried even searching meta but this didn't help
 
user4639281
7:10 AM
It may be more per capita, but more total, because of the higher volume
 
!!/alive
 
@Magisch You doubt me?
 
@gnat Yeah Charcoal HQ is the home of the Smoke Detector.
 
@Magisch Sure, there are many of them. And as mentioned the forename is common. The question is why they tend to produce VLQ questions here? Because they are forced to use Turbo C++ in school?
 
becoming a software developer is something that a metric ton of people in these countries are aspiring to, even if they may not have the calling or interest for it. Its one of the few mass-accessible ways out of poverty there. There's also more people in india then in europe and north america combined. Software development has only recently taken hold there, too. Alas, most questions from noob/freshman developers tend to be bad, hence why you see that tendency
2
 
7:19 AM
I swear some people just up the comment instead of vote :)
 
maybe also because they learn English as one of the country's official languages in school, so they have a lower barrier to post than beginners in many other countries. Couple that with a government making serious attempts at developing the country's IT sector with (I presume) education initiatives, funding, and propaganda ... but not necessarily being able to keep the top talent in teaching (high-status jobs abroad, no need to help pesky students)
 
@Magisch Yeah. That's my point. Its an actually observable pattern. In the late ninties companies started to outsource software development to india. I had to work with these people. It mostly was an awful experience. I'm not saying they all are actually bad, but as mass products tend to be low quality often.
 
Morning everyone o/
 
Seth o/
 
\o morning
 
7:20 AM
morning
 
Evening ;)
 
Morning
 
it's not just Stack Overflow or not just now, btw, I remember when I was active on unix.com many years ago the same tendency was visible there
 
How are you guys doing on this wonderful day? :)
 
@πάνταῥεῖ That may be the case, but I'm not sure what we can derive from that. Considering that we treat LQ questions as LQ, and good questions as good, little is to be gained from such data.
Other then that we see that India is trying to step up its software development game
 
7:22 AM
@Magisch The point was, when I'm seeing Abhishek it rings an alarm bell inside of me.
 
Morning
 
@Magisch given how we use bots and machine learning to try to root out LQ stuff, there may be patterns to find which are actually helpful, and thinking about what they are could guide you in selecting good features for your machine learning
 
@πάνταῥεῖ :(
 
I don't think Indian (or Greek, or English) names are a particularly good predictor, though
 
@ColdFire Yeah, I know that sounds bad.
 
7:23 AM
@πάνταῥεῖ not true
 
I have that subconscious tendency, too. I try to fight it consciously and remind myself that I'm judging the post, not the user.
 
but words like "lakh" and "doubt" might be more prevalent in poor questions than in good ones
 
well you guys really have a bad perception of india
not good
 
@tripleee They aren't really, I know. I just tell what I'm feeling.
 
@tripleee lakh where did that word came from?
 
7:24 AM
@ColdFire Indian numbering
 
As awful as it sounds and as much as I consciously want to fight against it on days where I'm in a bad mood and I read the name "Kumar" my brain wants to go "Oh my god here we go again". But its not right to use that as a predictor
 
And we need to stop ourselves from using it
 
@tripleee i am an indian you know so i very well know my currency and number system lol
 
@ColdFire I have had my (bad) experiences. I don't think india is worse than any other country actually.
 
7:24 AM
@ColdFire yeah, that's what I recall, but others here probably don't know
 
@Magisch: OP responded to my answer...
*Sigh*
 
@πάνταῥεῖ well your bad experience doesnt make all people bad
 
@Magisch Yeah, that also rings a bell :)
 
@tripleee haha ok
 
@ColdFire And so I said. Its just like we're trained like Pavlov's dogs.
 
7:26 AM
We can fight that impulse
 
well 1.25 billion population you cant blame india for that
 
I've also seen that most of the spams are coming from India. sad
 
@Magisch Yeah. That's probably a notable thing for self reflection we should take care of.
 
@ColdFire She's not
 
even if there are 10% stupid people that still makes it 12.5 crore
@Tushar she?
 
7:28 AM
"crore" questions seem to have a better average score than "lakh" questions ...
 
@ColdFire *e has mentioned in this comment
 
@tripleee Both should be fixed to use a proper name for those units.
 
@ColdFire Is it wrong? Should I use he?
 
@Cerbrus actually some of those questions are about those concepts, and are perfectly fine
 
@Tushar i dont think there is anybody she here :P
 
7:30 AM
"she" countries quora.com/…
 
Sorry, it's He
 
@tripleee lol
 
You are very confusing today, people of SOCVR :|
 
hey seth o/
 
@ColdFire Well, there's at least one recurring point I have to insist about. The educational system needs a serious makeover apparently.
 
7:31 AM
Hey @ColdFire :-)
 
@πάνταῥεῖ i agree about the education system
indian education system is stupid in many ways
only IIT and NIT are good
 
@ColdFire Partially Agree
 
@πάνταῥεῖ That's normal though. The education in most countries nowadays is far behind what'd be good and possible.
 
@ColdFire Other than those also, there are many good Universities
 
PNU?
not many few i guess
 
7:33 AM
@ColdFire As mentioned, that stoopid Turbo C++ enforcement. Why is it actually? Can you give us an insight?
 
and that too costly
 
Yeah
And corrupted too
 
@πάνταῥεῖ no idea it is just the education system has been updated in decades
 
@ColdFire You meant decades actually?
 
also i was taught cobol wtf
@πάνταῥεῖ yeah decades
 
7:35 AM
@πάνταῥεῖ In my first year of CS graduation, I've also worked on TC, but from second year onwards We've used Linux. :)
 
instead of teaching some practical stuff we are taught c,c++ till fibonacci series wow
 
@ColdFire And that Fibo. has to write in other languages
 
@ColdFire if that's at an academic institution it's no different from anywhere else, you need the theory
 
@tripleee well i dont agree we need so much theory in practical subjects
 
@ColdFire I also learned cobol once. That was in the 80ies of the last century. It seems nowadays you could even afford a good business with it, since there are old big systems running on cobol, and the noteworthy developers become extinct.
 
7:38 AM
@ColdFire if it's academic studies, that means theory. If it's not academic, then practicality tends to be a stronger requirement
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Indeed :) That's what I was told, too. There are quite a few companies still using cobol, and they're looking for devs all the time.
 
@tripleee well i am becoming a graduate and i all get is theory lol no
 
But cobol is basically dead otherwhise.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ i see but language is too easy i topped my class without even studying
as far as we were taught
 
@ColdFire I think I learned more in six weeks on my first job than in the first year of studies. But I don't regret taking them. Especially some of the basic courses were incredibly tedious and boring but you have to get that out of your system in order to properly qualify for the advanced courses ... much like we require a fair amount of work here from people in order to ask a useful question
 
7:40 AM
@Seth These systems need to have a make over. But still ubiquitous in financial industries and such (makes me horrified to s ome point)
 
@πάνταῥεῖ I know, but the companies located in that sector are already looking to switch over to something like java.
Quite a few banks are actually hiring devs on mass, atleast from what I heard, simply to make the switch asap.
 
@tripleee i see your point but still i dont agree with too much theory , perhaps POB
 
@Seth Yeah, I know. Some of my friends are working in that sector. Basically developing java frontends for the cobol mainframe backend engines :)
 
@ColdFire if all you want to do is swap hard drives, academic studies are not for you. Getting a Master's should basically qualify you to work as a researcher, where you absolutely need to be familiar with the theory, if only to be aware of what has already been done
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Yikes!
 
7:43 AM
AS400 also is still ubiquitous
And I'm not sure replacing these systems with SAP is really doing anything good :P
There's a saying around: SAP'd to death.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Ahahaha :D
 
@tripleee i can swap hard drives without even ever studying anything
 
@ColdFire yeah, that's what "practical" means
 
@SmokeDetector f#
^wut??
 
@Yvette Mwahahaha! Get ninja'd!
 
7:47 AM
@tripleee it is not ,so it means that , but anyways i dont think we can come to a conclusion it , so nvm
 
check the affiliation in the OP's profile!
 
o/ everyone
 
@Yvette o/
Hiya @FirstStep o/
 
user3956566
\o
 
@ColdFire o/
 
7:48 AM
back to being you
well less spearrel's this way
 
@Seth Our company is actually doing that process now :/
 
user3956566
@Tunaki why did you add the user back to bl?
 
their history
they spammed multiple times before
 
@πάνταῥεῖ haha
 
@ColdFire Should I say never change a running system?
 
7:50 AM
@πάνταῥεῖ Oh boy :| ...
 
@πάνταῥεῖ i say develop a parallel new system until it is ready
 
^
That's pretty good.
 
@Tunaki "multiple"? I only see one: metasmoke.erwaysoftware.com/…
 
we are doing it in our company currently
 
What if the two are competing for resources?
 
7:51 AM
blob @Kyll
 
Plop ankit
And everyone
 
@ColdFire Of course they're doing it like so. Our IT officer in charge isn't a complete idiot.
 
o/ Chief
 
@JanDvorak they obviously will be. If you don't have enough resources, you can't
 
@πάνταῥεῖ so it is a idiot aferall sigh just not a complete one
 
7:52 AM
@ColdFire or "she", mind
 
@ColdFire He's forced by our CEO's. They have bad advisors.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ i see
@tripleee made it gender independent
 
@Braiam Ew, no.
 
and also a non human
 
Where can I request getting words banned? o.o Do I ask a RO?
 
7:56 AM
@ColdFire Our production processes are quite complex. HW development and production, software adjoined. And to make it even harder the business field decays. It's hard to compete with the big companies like Huawei and such. Were we have one R&D developer, they'l throw in 20 or so. It's actually frustrating.
 
@Seth what do you mean?
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Being the underdog has its perks though. :p
 
male / female / ai life form / hive mind or corporation / unknown or other / undisclosed
 
@πάνταῥεῖ well underdog
 
@Tunaki Idk, something like a black list for words, do we have that?
 
7:58 AM
@Seth We've always been focussing on quality. But that seems to be too costly.
^At least in germany.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Meh :|
Oh yeah.
Producing quality stuff takes time, time in germany isn't cheap.
 
@Seth In this room?
 
@Seth Living in germany isn't that cheap as well :/
 
@Tunaki Yup.
@πάνταῥεῖ I know :p I pay quite a lot of money for my 3-room-apartment (that I share with a roommate).
But I also earn quite a bit of money, considering I'm doing an apprenticeship
c:
 
@Seth And the whiskey to make it bearable is frickin' expensive as well :P
 
8:02 AM
@πάνταῥεῖ Depends :D
If you just want to get drunk, that's pretty cheap (compared to norway atleast)
If you want to drink something tasty, then yeah...
>.<
 
@Seth I have to admit it would be worse there :)
 
@ColdFire what is the equivalent to textbox in android? (A box for the user to type stuff and then I use in my code)
 
I live alone in a 260 eur / mo 1 bedroom apartment
 
@Yvette how was your holiday vacation?
 
@Magisch Was looking for something like that :| Didn't manage to find it.
 
8:03 AM
Its 260 / mo only because its just above a firm and between 2 more firms who are sawing wood all day every day starting 6 am in the morning including sundays
 
@Magisch Munich area would be worse.
 
And if the wind blows west I'm in the effect zone for emanations of the local sewage treatment plant
 
I wouldn't mind that ;p My snoring comes close to sawing wood :]
 
Because of both of these they haven't been able to fill that apartment in more then 5 years prior to me moving in there
Its nice and the 260 / mo comes with internet and utilities
 
Many german guys around :)
 
8:06 AM
Aye ^-^
 
Fortunately for me, I don't mind the smell at all and wood sawing is a non issue since waking me up is impossible
 
@Seth, you might like this one
 
@Seth May I ask what's your field of business?
 
@ColdFire nevermind I got it
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Um, well, the company I work for is part of a much bigger company, which we do all the IT stuff for, we're basically an "Interner Dienstleister" so to speak :]
@Cerbrus Yes I do :D
 
8:11 AM
Meta can generate a big controversy about near anything these days
 
I'm developing software for TV broadcasting systems and such. Interesting by means of technology, but small market (and our salesmen are poor chairfarters)
 
On better news, my answer on the other one is at 17 votes. I may get a reversal from that even :D
 
@Magisch Read the comments on my answer...
*sigh*
 
I'm doing business logic applications for a small company that thinks SAP is too expensive
 
@Seth Incoming tickets all day long? :P
 
8:13 AM
@πάνταῥεῖ For a few persons in my team... yes :D
And calls, a lot of calls.
 
And tech support. And some sysadmin stuff. And fixing private pcs of the owners and their children
 
I mostly work on projects requested by people though :) Like creating a new UI to manage employees, that sort of stuff.
Or scraping all dem websitez :P
@Magisch Leave out the near ;D
 
@Seth Project work is definitely better.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ It's relaxing, I get to manage myself basically c: And I get to use the features that I want to use, and the design that I choose.
Which can be very very bad (I have to redo most of it sometimes), but it's always a good learning experience.
 
I love to do the whole process. Requirement analysis, develop architecture, implementation. Most of my projects I'm a one man show along the hardware developers.
 
8:15 AM
@Seth I'm working on a hideous amalgamation of using Ms Access 2003 to access a software that takes a ms access outward report and prints it as pdf which is then read again by a second software that will generate an email HTM from that which will be sent via thunderbird from the user and the recievers then get a button via custom thunderbird extension to acknowledge it
 
@Seth To fail is part of the process, that's normal.
 
and the custom thunderbird extension does this via POST request onto a endpoint in our local intranet server
 
@Magisch You lost me at access ._.
@πάνταῥεῖ Aye c: But I sometimes realise that I've failed when I'm 99% done with the project. And then I have to go & re-do 75% of it (more or less).
>,<
 
@Seth These things will go off with more experience. You'll smell where the fish starts to stink from their head.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Let's hope so ;D
 
8:21 AM
@Seth That's what I experienced. I'm in business roundabout 25 years or so now.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Dayum O_O
 
@Magisch Aww, that sounds terrible :#
 
1.125 years here c:
 
@Seth Means you are in biblical age now :D
 
@kayess ô.ô
Not sure if the SD report is spam.
 
8:24 AM
@Seth I don't even have a university engineer degree. Doing same work, getting same salary though :)
 
2naki \o
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Nice :D
25 years... That's a lot of time
 
@Seth Well, took some time :)
 
FR @Tunaki change your name to "2naki"
:D
 
Let's hope this room doesn't get a mass review ban for letting spam through ;-)
 
8:26 AM
@Tunaki I'd say k
 
I don't find that Smokey answer to be completely off-topic. The question is asking how to convert between audio formats
The answer is just way out of place.
 
@Tunaki I don't think it's any different from much of the other spam we see. Find a vaguely related topic, post an "answer" with a link to your site
 
Meh, I'm feeling good...
 
the question is very specifically about and iPhone while the linked blog says how to do it on a Windows desktop
 
@Magisch Just one letter less doesn't make much of a difference.
 
8:29 AM
But 2naki sounds nice
:D
 
Here's the deal: If Tunaki doesn't change his name to 2naki, how about I do?
 
Maybe tuna can have a rapper name like "Notorious N" or "Big Naki" then, too .D
 
@Magisch Would be Naki MC
 
@Magisch 1 Letter difference isn't a big deal, but 1 digit difference makes the difference if you have to ask for a question screenshot or not :P
 
@Tunaki actually Java not iPhone,not sure where I got that impression?
 
8:33 AM
@Magisch T-boy
Ehh, that's gender-specific. T-person
Not to be confused with t-person, which would be @tripleee.
 
@Cerbrus Take on a discussion with @naomik
 
inbefore spidergirl
 
She already clicked the "take this to chat" button. No thanks xD
@JanDvorak spiderperson
 
No good. There's already one.
 
8:35 AM
hmm hmm hmm, she got going...
 
@SmokeDetector @Tunaki convinced now?
 
aye
 
@Cerbrus I tried to welcome her firendly, but she even denied from my 1st sentence.
 
yep
 
@tripleee it's same as yesterday you start with good faith, that way if they continue you can be sure
 
8:37 AM
@PetterFriberg Her 2nd recent meta question was better achieved yes.
 
@PetterFriberg if it's off-topic NAA VLQ and promotes a commercial product, I don't see what good it does to hesitate
 
@πάνταῥεῖ we are not speaking about same thing, I was speaking of smokey report
 
@πάνταῥεῖ in a chat room?
 
@PetterFriberg Ahh, sorry. I did get the context wrong.
 
art's userscript has been used to cast over 3400 flags so far
3400 feedbacks
 
8:39 AM
@PetterFriberg The account was registered to advertise a product that was mildly on-topic for the old question.
AKA, it's spam.
 
@Cerbrus Nope, in comments on her question.
 
I thought it had been more already
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Ah yea
... Spam which isn't gone, yet.
Cmon guys, flag! :D
 
@Cerbrus I tried to convince her not all men are assholes actually. But she seems to be prejudiced already.
 
people, there are situations where "I don't see what you are upset about" is a terribly wrong thing to say. Just don't do that
 
8:41 AM
@πάνταῥεῖ I'm... not gonna comment any more on that
 
@JanDvorak tempted to flag as rude
 
@JanDvorak Certainly not. Ask @yvette
 
@tripleee I disagree. There are plenty of people getting upset about absolutely nothing.
Meanwhile, this spam still exists.
 
@Cerbrus while that's true, gender discrimination is not one of those things
 
I agree ^^ and you need to understand culture background etc
 
8:43 AM
@Cerbrus Nope, it doesn't
 
@tripleee There are plenty of people shouting "discrimination" when there really isn't any discrimination going on.
@JanDvorak Thanks
 
I thought I had flagged that
 
@Cerbrus I don't see this discussion improving. Telling them that is not a sane route
 
Not sane? That seems like an exaggeration.
 
@Cerbrus because having your feelings and experiences downplayed is part of the perceived problem. You are making it worse, one way or another
 
8:45 AM
@tripleee: Then there's no "winning" any "discrimination" discussions.
Anyone can claim anything is discrimination, and there's nothing you can do.
 
@Cerbrus there are times and places where you can discuss but reporting a perceived problem is not an invitation to discuss
 
In the olden days, people used to say things like: "Get over it", "suck it up", etc.
@tripleee That's where our opinions differ.
Well, not really
 
@Cerbrus and if you were disqualified from a job, say, because you were too old or the wrong skin color, how exactly does that improve anything?
 
I just don't think a meta question is a report.
 
Meta is for discussion
 
8:47 AM
^ That
 
If you post on meta, you are bringing that on yourself
There are plenty of avenues to report problems if you want to avoid discussion
 
If you want to report discrimination on SO, flag said discrimination.
 
@Magisch sure, but the reception from the "I never felt discriminated here" crowd is just ... childish
 
If you want to discuss it, post a meta thread.
If you don't want to discuss it, don't post a meta thread.
 
@tripleee These responses are there because OP is trying to extrapolate and speak for others when its just her personal experience
 
8:48 AM
@Cerbrus She didn't put the right points in. Gender discrimination actually is a serious issue. Especially in the IT business. I believe we need more women, I believe we need them to clutch our cojones until we squeak.
 
"But many other people are bummed out by this" is easily justification for saying "I wouldn't be one of them"
 
then don't alienate them
 
"And please allow me to at least have a sense of humour about it; at least in meta.": You have literally accused a moderator of abusing his "powers". You called him a cyberbully, you tried to vandalize your answer, you were accusing the team of censorship. Now we should be amused by your "humor"? You really have no right to ask that of meta. As you say, "I write to you today to let you know that I'm officially offended"Cerbrus 2 hours ago
 
If you're trying to extrapolate and assume authority to speak for people other then yourself, you have to accept the fact that some of these people may stand up and go "No, you don't speak for me, and stop portraying it as if you do", which is exactly what happened here.
 
She come into meta with baseless accusations, and we're not allowed to tell her to suck it up?
 
8:50 AM
@Cerbrus As mentioned, she didn't took the right way to raise the issue.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ She made it an issue
We wouldn't be having this discussion if she'd just edited the OP. Problem solved.
 
@Cerbrus Its actually one. Just not from that sample.
 
@Cerbrus I agree that that particular discussion was not very well executed, but "are all women like that?" responses are certainly not making it look like her perceptions were completely baseless
 
I get the same kind of cold rage when I hear people who purpot to speak for minority groups I'm a part of and get offended on my behalf. It pisses me off to no end
 
@tripleee I don't support those responses.
 
8:52 AM
Can I get a tl;dr of the whole issue? From what I got - she posted a gender neutrality jab in an answer, someone edited it out and she came to meta to flip out about it?
 
That's pretty much it
 
Thanks
 
Accusing the moderator of abuse of power
Calling him a cyberbully
Vandalized her own answer
Then went to meta.
 
sweeeeet
 
I'm like: What did you expect?
Sheesh
 
8:54 AM
@JanDvorak Basically that's the tl;dr yes. But gender discrimination in general is a real issue. (similar as with abhisheks and kumars).
 
> Step 1: Someone posts a question, and uses "I know this is going to be easy for you guys" in there.
Step 2: You post an answer, and add a snarky remark ("This would've been easier if I was a boy") in response to his introduction.
Step 3: A moderator removes the introduction alongside your snarky remark.
Step 4: You chose to vandalize your own (pretty neat) answer.
Step 5: A moderator reversed the actions you took.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ The point is that the whole issue was blown massively out of proportion by her.
4 mins ago, by Cerbrus
We wouldn't be having this discussion if she'd just edited the OP. Problem solved.
 
@Seth so far she seems to be the bad guy here
 
@JanDvorak She overreacted to every single action taken, based solely on her (mis)conception of being targeted by "sexists".
 
@Cerbrus agreed and acknowledged, but how then do we take constructive strides to (a) discuss (as apparently several people here wish) and (b) actually try to improve the situation (perception or fact, either way)?
 
8:56 AM
@Cerbrus Yeah. Even girls get upset sometimes at the completely wrong point. There seems to be an anamnesis.
 
@tripleee: By locking that thread and posting a quality question.
That's the only way.
There's nothing constructive about that whole meta question
 
@Cerbrus The gender-thread?
 
@Cerbrus what should be in the "quality question"?
 
That one will die easily.
 
@tripleee I'm becoming increasingly convinced that SO is the wrong avenue for this debate
 
8:57 AM
^.
 
@tripleee I don't know. Imo, like @Magisch said, SO isn't the place for this.
 
@Magisch Probably yes. But it needs to be debated.
 
@Magisch for the broader topic, certainly. For "are we part of the problem or part of the solution" part, there certainly seems to be something to be done here
 
Social issues have nothing to do with technical Q/A and inserting them into it on main only serves to alienate people and cause annoying crap flinging contests between equally unreasonable counterparties.
2
 
But the conclusion would probably be: If you see it, edit it out. If it's bad, flag it.
It's that simple
 
8:58 AM
I need more women in my business. Without them we're lost.
 
@Magisch Very well said :)
 
This site is so diverse most people can't even agree on the nature of the problem
 
@πάνταῥεῖ That's sexist ;-)
 
@Magisch I thought that was the core of meta? :D
 
if Debian managed to switch from a misogynistic morass to an equal opportunity project, so can SO
 
8:59 AM
@Cerbrus No, that's realist.
 
@Magisch It's definitely not the perfect place for it, but if someone comes calm with some clear questions, facts and some stuff they see where SO could improve I don't think that would be a huge problem at all.
 
@Cerbrus I believe he's talking about the biological side of things
 
@πάνταῥεῖ The IT business has been doing fine, so far. It's not like we need more women.
 

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