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4:00 PM
 
Am I doing it right?
 
@MadaraUchiha nope
 
looks darn good to me
 
Sam
@EricD. Yep
 
@Tunaki Yeah... I thought that was good :/
 
4:01 PM
@Braiam I'm speaking from experience here.
 
Sam
@BhargavRao Nope
 
@Sam cool!
 
The moment you allow for requests (either by bot or by people), this place will take a lot of heat.
 
@Sam sigh
 
@BhargavRao It's not that great of a question. Doesn't deserve +129 and 3 answers >+200 answers, is what I mean
 
4:02 PM
@MadaraUchiha Shog said, and I wasted time looking for it just now, paraphrasing: if it should be closed, it has no answers, and score 0, don't bother 4 more people to close it, just downvote it and nobody else would be bothered
 
@Braiam So downvote and move on.
No need for a bot to post it in the room and get all these eyes on it.
 
yeah, definitely don't download
 
Sam
Upload instead.
 
@Tunaki Am sure it got the "Java mass share effect"
 
@MadaraUchiha exactly, but Drew said But while we wait for it, along comes an &#(&^ answer (that ices it for eternity)
I was addressing the "wait" period
 
4:03 PM
@Braiam You won't prevent that with a bot. Only with closing it.
 
you would downvote it anyways, the issue is when
 
that is different than posting a DV request or worse: having the bot do the DV
and that is why I say close it while others say "oh sweetie let it just rot"
 
mm... I'm not sure what the heck you are interpreting...
 
@Braiam How would a bot help you here? How do you detect that a post needs downvoting?
 
I said bot only in a jovial mood. I see some "automate", I ask Sam to do a bot. (My bad, Sry)
 
4:05 PM
@MadaraUchiha easy, you read it first, add it to a list (locally or remotely, but somewhere you control), create something that reads that list just before roomba runs and downvotes those posts, profit
 
Here is what I hear a lot (1) let roomba take care of it (2) let the main tag room take care of it. Both are failing
 
@Drew Letting roomba take care of it is a good thing.
Close it and let it rot.
 
it is a good thing. It is not the only thig
 
Best case: Edited, reopened, answers, rejoice.
 
I'm doing basically the same thing on [freeze] in AU
@MadaraUchiha you haven't seen AU yet
is just sad...
so sad that it's awful
 
4:07 PM
@Braiam ?
 
> Best case: Edited, reopened, answers, rejoice
 
@MadaraUchiha I am referring to comments that suggest that certain cv pls requests are not brought here
should not be brought here
 
@Drew The question is whether the target room cares or not.
I know the PHP room does (or at least, used to, haven't been there actively in a while)
I know the JavaScript room does not.
 
well they don't care enough in numbers of 3k rep to handle it
and guys like Tuna and Jarrod are overwhelmed
 
@Drew Almost all the regulars lost interest in the main site.
Most of them are just there for chat.
 
4:09 PM
prob
 
@MadaraUchiha yeah, most people are like that
 
And it's sad, but, you know, there's a real problem here and no matter how many reviewers you'd throw on the problem, it wouldn't solve it.
 
as dreamt up in my fantasy land, a guy like Tuna becomes a Terminator Mod
 
Because the noise is drowning the signal. And there are orders of magnitude more "bad" users than there are willing reviewers (at least here on Stack Overflow)
 
@MadaraUchiha nah, is not that uncommon
 
4:10 PM
Here you also have the problem of robo reviewers.
 
Sam
2 hours ago, by Sam
Replace "actively create new content" with "actively review close votes"
De va ju
 
Madara, do I need to quote myself?
 
@Sam The whole point of Stack Overflow (and Stack Exchange) is that users are the ones moderating their own sites.
That works great with a certain ratio of regulars to newbs.
 
1/9/90?
 
It works reasonably well across the network, some more, some less.
 
Sam
4:12 PM
@MadaraUchiha Yeah, it's just getting the right ratio.
 
With Stack Overflow, we're near or perhaps past the point where that approach is no longer effective.
And more systematic changes are needed (don't ask me which, I don't know)
 
Shog's solution: delete more
2
 
That's my personal opinion though, it doesn't reflect anything.
 
yeah with no ability to do it (delete more)
 
@Braiam I don't see how that works. Deleting is the worst possible outcome. Especially fast deleting
 
4:14 PM
@KevinGuan If you would bother reading this you would see that this question isn't off-topic. And also asking about common programming problems/algorithms is allowed afaik — Fᴀʀʜᴀɴ Aɴᴀᴍ 1 min ago
 
in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, Mar 5 '15 at 21:43, by Shog9
So here's a thought... A question ends up in the helper queue; no one edits it (because they can't). The OP never returns. It never gets answered. Why not just delete those?
 
User asks bad question, I'd much prefer the question closed and comments left, and have it decay naturally over 9 days till it's roombad, than it being instantly deleted with no visual hint and not notification whatsoever to OP
@Braiam If the question is old and unanswered, sure.
 
@MadaraUchiha if people cared about their questions more, we would see more meta drama
 
Not if it's 1 hour old.
 
<The above one-box of mine>: Hmm...is that question really good?
 
Sam
4:15 PM
@KevinGuan Reading...
 
@KevinGuan Isn't off-topic but too broad.
 
@MadaraUchiha I'm on the side that we are awfully conservative deleting stuff... Internet is just too fast, we need to delete at the same speed
 
Braiam you are a fine writer. Write up a Terminator Mod polemic on Meta. Problem solved. A mod is not a Terminator mod
 
@Tunaki lol
 
@Braiam I want to delete stuff
But I don't want to leave OP in the dark.
 
4:16 PM
@MadaraUchiha they can see their own questions with comments...
 
> How do I use a pen in Java?
^ Hmm. What? :)
 
That 1 in a 100 user? I want him to understand why his question was closed and downvoted\
Because that 1 in a 100 user is the next reviewer.
 
@Tunaki mm... naughty guy
 
@Madara what is this a John Lennon song :P
 
@Tunaki Follow up, How do I use a pencil in Java?
 
4:17 PM
If OP would have gotten a clear notification or could somehow list their deleted stuff or something like that, I'd delete with a smile.
 
@MadaraUchiha There's the premise that the question is closed.
 
@MadaraUchiha if someone didn't get SO in their first attempt, is likely they will never get it (case point: myself)
 
@Braiam I disagree.
I've personally reformed more than one user from someone you'd consider a troll to someone who's leading the discussion in the JavaScript and PHP rooms.
It's worth it. That effort. At least to me.
 
@MadaraUchiha that doesn't scale
and here lies the problem
 
@Braiam It does if the system helped you do it.
 
4:18 PM
that doesn't scale by a country mile
 
which is why I'm so stubborn on doing things right at first
is easier to prevent those issues when things grow
 
Sam
I've, erm, lost the point you guys are making. Mind giving me a tl;dr?
 
@Braiam Yes, but it's hard to impossible to predict just how large you'd grow, and in which direction.
 
@Madara I try sometimes. Then I wonder why meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/315803/feeling-like-a-grind/…
 
@Sam Agree. @Braiam what was your point again?
 
4:21 PM
that SO started too late to solve the issues it has right now, because of a extremely conservative approach on content curation
 
Sleep time, night everyone!
 
Sam
Cya
 
Cya
 
there are many themes here Sam. One now is how to reform people in juvie hall
 
4:22 PM
@Braiam I (and many users) attribute the decline to the change in close reasons.
 
@Braiam Fair enough but what are you proposing?
 
@Tunaki delete SO and start again?
at this moment, that's the only solution
 
That let to an opening that flooded the site with lazy questions, with no good close reason to deal with them
 
@Braiam Okay let's do it. What would be your rules?
 
The management appear to take the side of "more users === better" and not "better quality === better"
 
Sam
4:23 PM
@Braiam Right, ok.
 
@Madara if we had a chat room with people with rep 1 could go to and drain the pain (and peeps willing to staff it) then it would help. Altering close reasons thinking there is some magic formula will never suit everyone
 
That caused a lot of people to be discouraged.
@Drew Stack Overflow became more politically correct.
With those close reasons.
 
that is fine but there is no drain the pain recourse for the rep 1 noob
like that link I gave a page up. His recourse is to go ballistic
 
@Tunaki the same as they are now, except that we delete anything unanswered, scored 0 or less and older than 30 days
 
4:25 PM
I'll throw this out in the wild: reduce the number of votes from 5 to 4 to close a question.
 
no .... Terminator mod tuna. Shoot for what we want
 
unanswered n.: (on Stack Overflow) question with no upvoted or accepted answer
 
@Tunaki I want a gold badge holder's vote on any tag to count 3 normal votes.
And a silver's to count 2.
 
yes
 
4:26 PM
yes
I do too
 
Takes 2 gold to close (or 1 gold 1 silver), 3 silver, or 5 normals.
 
And there is a Meta about that that says "it is too complicated"
 
That's a good escalation model imho.
 
Sam
Problem is, we can brainstorm the perfect system here, but what are the chances of it ever getting implemented?
 
that would be stellar
 
4:27 PM
@Sam None if none of us meta about it.
@Tunaki link?
 
I thought it was meta'd and shot down 2 years ago
 
Sam
@MadaraUchiha Yeah, give it 6-8 weeks....
 
or 1 year ago
 
@MadaraUchiha looking
 
@Sam Right, don't get me wrong, development is slow, and Stack Overflow is a profit-incentivized company.
They'd prioritize development of money making features over such "experiments"
 
Sam
4:29 PM
Yeah :/
 
Doesn't mean it shouldn't be out there.
 
It is not in Big Money's best interest to implement our wishes
They want eye candy and ad revenue
 
Sam
Which is why I can't realistically see any improvement in the near future.
 
I need to improve my google skillz.
> 'Extra weights' in current privileges. E.g. having your vote count as two instead of one. This is way too difficult to implement, and way too complicated to explain to someone new.
 
read: it hurts our Revenue Model so let's not do it
 
4:32 PM
I have three pending meta post which I know the title: "I want to fry the smaller fish", "Lets insulate the lighting rod", and "The only problem SO doesn't have"
oh forgot this one: On incentives and deletion
 
AFK
 
I wanna see the fish one published :P
@MohammedAoufZOUAG fear not. We will get back on track
 
@Drew The Stack Overflow revenue model comes primarily from careers posts.
 
Sam
@Braiam It'd be interesting to see how well accepted they would be by the community.
 
And it only works as long as you have many high rep users.
many high rep users is a function of many upvotes
 
4:36 PM
right. And beating down and closing too much damages that revenue model
 
Many upvotes is a function of quality content and good education on how to use the site.
 
they really don't want these things closed
 
@Drew It's the aggressiveness that damages that.
 
what aggressiveness
 
@Drew Really?
 
4:38 PM
plenty of users interpret a simple downvote as aggression
 
there is a lot, not sure which you mean
 
Snarky remarks in comments, people calling others names, etc
 
ah, I thought you meant the "I am serious about closing this thing"
because I am aggressively trying to close these things
 
@MadaraUchiha I was thinking that statement was "too fast too furious"
 
Closing and maintaining professionalism is possible.
 
@Braiam No, I'm not talking about closing fast.
Closing fast is great. It's a completely reversible, completely open action, with a clear(ish) explanation on what's wrong.
Questions can still be commented on, and other users (as well as OP) can still see it.
 
we must never insult even if meant in fun because it hurts the revenue model
 
@Drew There's a fine line between insults made in fun, and insults in bad spirit. Part of being a high rep user/moderator is knowing to tell the difference.
 
<insert random quote about users that get told off when they leave constructive comments>
 
if their feelings are hurt they may get so upset they won't click on the Amazon banner and thus we cannot charge Amazon a nickel for it
 
4:42 PM
People calling me a villain because I'm Madara is fine, people calling me a villain because I'm a mod (and I've had that) isn't.
 
So the conclusion here is that we need to add a notion of "weight" to CV. Gold badge weights 3 (for other than dupe) and silver weights 2.
 
Call me retarded, but I'm having difficulties keeping up with what you say
 
Sam
I sometimes wonder if we shouldn't show new users the scores of their posts.
@MohammedAoufZOUAG Join the club.
 
I would like that a zen-mode was implemented by default
 
What would you think of such a system?
 
4:45 PM
@Sam you got a club for those, how caring
 
Sam
@MohammedAoufZOUAG We've even got jackets.
 
i think that there are users who will remove or improve their content when it gets downvoted. what would be the advantage of not giving them that feedback? they take the downvotes less personally?
 
Sam
Downvotes by themselves are useless, how does that tell a user what specifically is wrong with their post?
 
@cimmanon the problem is that they don't interpret downvotes as a signal of "needs improvement" but "someone is mean and I have proof"
 
Sam
Comments/closing on the other hand...
 
4:47 PM
5 mins ago, by Braiam
<insert random quote about users that get told off when they leave constructive comments>
 
Sam
sigh
 
So nobody thinks anything about this system?
 
no, the system works, humans are the problem... as always
 
Tuna we love it. Getting it in place, different story
 
Sam
@Tunaki Which one?
 
4:48 PM
we could improve the way users are taught how the system works.
 
right, that is my chat room for rep <20 idea
 
5 mins ago, by Tunaki
So the conclusion here is that we need to add a notion of "weight" to CV. Gold badge weights 3 (for other than dupe) and silver weights 2.
 
Sam
@cimmanon Not many users read docs though...
 
if you are really bored, enter that chat room. The hilarity will soon follow
 
@Sam no, but we do have tooltips and whatnot.
 
4:49 PM
<inserts random quote about users that ignore guidance because "I want to ask my question, damn it!">
 
Sam
^
 
entitlement. You are here for me baby
 
"you got a downvote, someone thought your content was of low quality, consider improving it"
 
Sam
@cimmanon Yeah, but still. Most users don't really care that much.
 
... which is why "more deletion" is a very attractive solution
 
4:50 PM
they seem to care that someone didn't offer them something for free
(seems like I am talking about parse.com again, sorry)
How dare I not get a free platform for messaging and all you to write my code for me !
 
@Drew I love how you add the space before the bang
 
He's inspired by the French typography, what can you say. French are the best he?
 
I didn't want someone to think I was talking about mel
 
not only french do that... and I know french people that follows english grammar rules when writing in english
 
my quest in life is to please Braiam. Bear with me, as it is a life journey
 
4:57 PM
@Drew how doing something meaningful with your life feels like?
 
So... there was a long debate about a topic that everybody forgot while debating and now everyone is back to their regular activities?
 
Sam
Pretty much.
Welcome to the internet!
 
Tunaki are you talking about the Silver issue
 
I'm talking about whatever we were discussing about. But yeah that was part of it.
 
Again, I think that is a great idea. And I also think it has no chance of getting implemented for all the reasons mentioning Revenue above. I would like stuff closed quicker. I don't think The Borg wants it that way.
I need to whip together some blocks for peeps to review if so inclined
 
5:01 PM
anyone feels the need of someone to take minutes?
 
Sam
In the Revenue Model we trust.
 
Hi again ...
 
Sam
Wb
 
Wb
 
wc?
 
5:09 PM
Reflag, OP edited but still link-only: stackoverflow.com/a/35115784/1743880
 
Sam
@Braiam ?
 
Tunaki please don't vote on the following ok
Need your CV for later
 
Understood
 
@Drew I'm on it
I actually feel sorry for some "OP"s, sometimes. Don't get me wrong, but I just can't shake that souvenir when I was a big noob that cries for any help possible..
@Drew jailbreak... most of them are missing 1 vote
 
great we line them up for later. Knowing there are at 4 will be apparent on next system scan (takes 1 min)
 
5:23 PM
Hmmm, justifying a Link Only answer :/ stackoverflow.com/questions/245956/…
 
@BhargavRao I've had worse today: stackoverflow.com/a/35112456/1743880
 
@Tunaki Why not delv-vote it?
 
Why don't I get to be the 5th sledge hammer to close the question ? Man that's a lot of 4s...
 
@BhargavRao The LQP review queue will handle it eventually. I prefer to keep my votes for other necessary things.
 
Mohammed you can next batch. Let me put it in perspective. Think of it as a pyramid. We vacated all the cv4's yesterday. The top of the pyramid is cv4. There aren't any. The numbers are huge below it in a broad pyramid. We need them shoved up
 
5:31 PM
@Drew And I thought the system works in a mysterious way... so there are basically chunks of these, sorted by CVs, right ?
 
By "The System", it is Drew and his worksheet.
 
@Tunaki & what a worksheet that is... I still would like to know more about how does this work exactly
 
& please don't say : "If we tell you, we gonna have to kill you" :v
 
i scan all the then we give them some hairy eyeball review
 
5:33 PM
Sharpens sword
 
Prepares gasoline
 
@BhargavRao En garde ! I'm just kidding, it's just I'm still pissed due to the fact that that script didn't work for me
 
right now we are real low on cv4 because of the Blood Letting imposed by Tuna and Petter yesterday. Here are the counts as of 20 minutes ago (cv4=6 cv3=182 cv2=401 cv1=961)
 
@MohammedAoufZOUAG Lol, we all have these kinds of fun "drama"s here ... chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/info/41570/… ... See "Drama Sessions"
 
@Drew & the majority of these date to the beginning of days
 
5:37 PM
beginning days meaning
 
@BhargavRao haha will check that
@Drew I mean, like, real old posts.. the majority of those posts are old
 
no but I will explain that in a bit. Safe to say 98% are from the last 15 days
 
> I'm not a "system" & I find this exhausting..
 
no they are not old. they are 30k to 15k minutes ago and they will become old and the votes age away if we don't perform some action (Lord willing and Q deserving)
that is why I said 10 a day .... if this is exhausting
 
Are there other groups that do the same as you do ?
 
5:41 PM
@Sam ^^^
 
Sam
The PHP room do cv reqs (they even have a site for their backlog, cv-pls.com).
Besides them, there aren't any other groups that I know of.
(Not at our size at least.)
 
Py room allows cv reqs related to only python. But we've good some good rules there sopython.com/wiki/cv-pls
 
I guess I reached my 10 questions/day limit. I'll save some for later
 
@sam what is the limit / person ?
 
Sam
@Drew ?
 
5:44 PM
oh, you mean you don't want to do anymore. I get confused easily. idk
I am not saying to limit yourself. I was referring to:
5 mins ago, by Mohammed Aouf ZOUAG
> I'm not a "system" & I find this exhausting..
 
@Drew no no that's not what I meant; it was a nested-inner-shallow-joke about me hammering you guys with questions all day long :p
 
oh, you aren't hammering us with questions. We are grateful you are here.
 
Actually I'm having a hard time keeping up with you guys, I have a C# "development journey (as my teacher calls it) tomorrow, & I can't process C# code & what all of you say at the same time
 
Sam
At least you're not on a PHP journey.
Tiny!
 
Oh, so you see my point of view.
 
5:54 PM
Hi Tiny o/
 
user4639281
@josilber I don't see any difference between this and the other answers to the question. Shouldn't the whole question just be closed and deleted to avoid further such answers?
 
Tiny \o/
 
user4639281
@BhargavRao sorry, just on for a second to ping josilber. Gotta run.
 
yes...
 
user4639281
It was an audit that I almost failed because the answer isn't the problem.
 
5:57 PM
Gotcha -- all gone now. Sometimes I forget to check the question leading to lousy answers, but they question was problematic (and now is gone).
 
bye time sink
 
user4639281
Awesome thanks. Gtg
 
cya
 
Sam
Cya
 
Ciao o/
Oh forgot ... Hi @josilber :)
 
5:59 PM
@BhargavRao hello!
 
6:12 PM
@Drew How are you determining the expiration date of CV?
 
omg someone delete that pinned voted funny comment over there. People don't need to see that ---------------------------->
 
Sam
Oh, the one everyone's starring...
 
the one my quest in life is to ...
Tuna I did not hear that question
thx Sam for the help on those cuz you just saved 20 cv for someone
 
I was asking how you were determining the expiration date of CV on questions
 
Sam
Np
 
6:16 PM
I still did not hear that question
 
Sam
@Tunaki Probably magic.
 
Like in the movie The Dictator, when being interviewed by Larry King
 
6:35 PM
I have watched that film some 100 times and still wanna watch it again
 
6:48 PM
Bye all. Gotta get up early tomo :)
 
7:07 PM
I can't tell if this answer is trying to advertise or answer my question.
What do you guys think? ^^
 
Sam
Reading...
Well I wouldn't call it spam.
 
Sam
I'd be tempted to flag NAA though.
 
It isn't spam, but it isn't really an answer
He is just linking his own work.
 
Sam
But "technically" it attempts to answer the question, so..
 
7:17 PM
It is spam, look at his last few answers
 
Yea. Not really sure
 
Sam
@Thaillie Good catch
 
@Thaillie you are right
He does pot quite a lot about his "open source lib"
 
Sam
afk
 
7:20 PM
Flag as offensive? ^^^
 
!!/help
 
@intboolstring I'm SmokeDetector, a bot that detects spam and offensive posts on the network and posts alerts to chat. A command list is available here.
 
@BhargavRao Hm? It's deleted.
 
@Tunaki Ahem the link above ... stackoverflow.com/a/35117896/4099593
 
7:22 PM
Going with NAA or offensive?
 
@BhargavRao flagged as rude
 
I'd say Offensive for both.
 
I got that when I searched my own name in Stackoverflow (was a mistake, wanted to search on MSO) :D
Also delv voted both as I have many votes left
 
yeah someone haul skiphoppy in here. Could use his Java skills
 
7:26 PM
Fine then, job done. Bye again
 
Sam
7:38 PM
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