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12:04 AM
These things are relative.
 
12:16 AM
I don't think I said it was difficult, just not without consideration.
QM is not WordPress.
If you wanted to build a WordPress clone with QM that installed from a single script, that'd be something else.
 
Just doing some reading and I came across asciidoctor which is a rewrite of asciidoc from presumably python to ruby. Now they have their whole website on github which I see as a model for us doing the same for rebol.net
And asciidoctor also seems to be powering the .adoc extension on github. I did a trial of changing one of the .txt to .adoc, and sure enough it renders it correctly.
 
Why does asciidoc need to get rewritten?
 
So, looks like I now need to rename all those .txt files to .adoc and upload the whole repo again
 
Are people seriously such obsessive fans of a language that they rewrite everything for that language?
Hope they don't do that for crypto! Hard to get right
 
you know Graham, if you really want to use PHP, go right ahead. myself, I'd rather change careers.
 
12:23 AM
@Sgeo maybe because github is ruby based ? No idea really.
@moliad what makes you think I want to use php?
I'm attempting to move rebol.net wiki which is php to off php!
 
isn't wordpress all php?
 
@moliad It's a tool that was needed quickly to suit a job.
Didn't say I was happy with it ... just that it worked
and was painless .. until it gets hacked by someone as it may eventually be.
And it's on my list of things to do to rewrite in Rebol ... but currently I am working on community stuff and not my own :(
 
Could use AsciiDoc for markup :)
 
I'm sure you understand that sometimes the good of the all comes before the good of one's self.
@rgchris asciidoc is just a tool
I want all docs to be available in any format people want them in
which is why I started providing the gui docs as html, pdf, epub and mdp
I've setup 3 I think now .. php based fora in the past all of which have been hacked by some cretins
But ... for somethings there are no alternatives
 
12:39 AM
Indeed.
 
12:56 AM
Seems to have worked .. all *.txt now renamed to *.adoc and moved to a docs directory. And now directly readable in github without needing to decipher the markup github.com/gchiu/rebol.net/tree/master/docs
 
1:11 AM
My techs don't like the markup syntax for MediaWiki. I think MDP would be a much better markup language.
 
@Respectech Don't go there!
ie. don't go to a proprietary format unless there's a way to convert out of it to something else
The issue we are having at present is that some persons have decided to mix markup languages .. ie. putting html tables inside mediawiki markup, instead of using mediawiki tables
 
@GrahamChiu I don't use MDP, but as is can output MakeDoc as HTML or DocBook. Would not be a stretch to output as AsciiDoc.
 
Hopefully a repo supervised appropriately will stop this
@rgchris I already have written a mdp -> asciidoc emitter
It's not wonderful but generally works.
But now I see the value of having something supported by the repo too.
 
You mean GitHub? — sorry, not sure what 'supported by the repo' means...
 
So, my emitter ( which I couldn't figure out how to upload to my r2 repo ), reads in a mdp doc, applies clean-script to any code samples contained within, and then emits the whole thing as asciidoc
@rgchris Well, yes, supported by github .. try reading saphirion's mdp docs, and compare that with the same docs as markdown within github
 
1:24 AM
Ok, that's what I thought.
 
Actually that reminds me .. clean-script uses load/next to grab one bit of code, indent it, and then get the next. But in R3 we have to use transcode/next which means the code has be kept as binary for transcode. I guess there's an easy way to write a r3 version of clean-script but I've never been good at this meta programming stuff
If someone feels the itch to do this, here's my first pass gist.github.com/gchiu/5733503
 
With reb4.me/r3/color-code — I just kept as binary.
 
that's color-coding? I'm looking for indenting...
 
Same principles.
 
1:53 AM
@johnk How goes it?
 
 
2 hours later…
3:28 AM
@GrahamChiu Going well, but let's just say it has been a very busy couple of weeks.
 
It is always like this .. sod's law!
Ok, managed to work out how to push this script. I hacked Carl's original, and I'm sure @rgchris could do it a lot better but sadly he expressed his views on asciidoc already. This converts the various variations of mdp use I found to asciidoc but some issues still remain.
It also attempts a clean-script on the embedded code found in breakouts
 
@GrahamChiu That's a bit harsh—I've not said I wouldn't assist. Time is more a concern than pouting.
 
@rgchris I'm just saying my attempt is unmaintainable :(
Actually I thought you said you had a low opinion of asciidoc several times now.
I'm not just pushing asciidoc because it was invented by a New Zealander!
 
It's one bad part of a good idea.
 
@GrahamChiu Just pulled the changes from the rebolbot github repo into the new ec2 instance for testing. So far so good. @rebolbot delete test now comes back sanely following the updates that adrian made around person
 
3:40 AM
Are they MDP documents or MakeDoc?
 
MDP
I have another version that does MD but I haven't tested it for ages
 
Do you have a good test doc?
 
Could try this one http://www.r3gui.com/docs/developer/resizing/resizing.html just change extension to .txt for asciidoc and .mdp
 
Seems to be picking up comments correctly from Carl's blog as well which surprised me
 
@GrahamChiu Does it need to be R3?
 
3:45 AM
@johnk Not responding to me
@rgchris I used R2
 
4:01 AM
Doesn't look right—says bullet points collects text-blocks, yet there's no new-line between bullets in the test doc...
Never mind, text-block is a single line. My bad.
 
4:25 AM
Line 310, that's annoying.
I assume that's bold and not a bullet and an asterisk...
(of the test doc)
 
Yep.
Ambiguity in action...
I wonder...
 
yeah, it looks like I treated it as a list
maybe all the stuff underneath each bullet should be indented
 
I'm going to—as a special case—treat it as a header.
That is the intent, right?
 
4:37 AM
Should have used a :define - form, or \define form.
Perhaps that was the intent?
Nup, header it is.
 
I believe that each user of mdp uses it slightly differently
 
Sigh.
To do a sect2 or a sect3? Here it'd be sect2—you have any preference?
 
no pref
 
5:09 AM
First pass, output as HTML: reb4.me/mdp/resizing.html
A ways to go...
I'm really only adjusting my scanners/emitter to the MDP syntax. So far is ok.
@RebolBot do/2 do reb4.me/mdp/makedoc.r doc: load-doc read reb4.me/mdp/resizing.txt print mold doc/outline
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> do reb4.me/mdp/makedoc.r doc: load-doc read reb4.me/mdp/resizing.txt print mold doc/outline
[
    sect1 ["Purpose"]
    sect1 ["Overview"]
    sect1 ["Hints"]
    sect1 ["Styles and resizing"]
    sect1 ["Box model"]
    sect1 ["Additional GOB attributes"]
    sect1 ["The UPDATE-FACE function"]
]
 
Hmm, should include all sects. Oh well, one step at a time.
Aside from images, is that missing anything?
 
looking good
 
5:24 AM
@RebolBot do/2 do reb4.me/mdp/makedoc.r doc: load-doc read reb4.me/mdp/resizing.txt print mold doc/outline/level 2
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> do reb4.me/mdp/makedoc.r doc: load-doc read reb4.me/mdp/resizing.txt print mold doc/outline/level 2
2
[
    sect1 ["Purpose"]
    sect1 ["Overview"]
    sect2 ["Original version"]
    sect2 ["Improvements"]
    sect1 ["Hints"]
    sect2 ["INIT-HINT, MIN-HINT and MAX-HINT"]
    sect2 ["The " 8216 "AUTO hint value"]
    sect2 ["The " 8216 "INIT hint value"]
    sect2 ["The " 8216 "KEEP hint value"]
    sect2 ["Hint values can be specified for every coordinate"]
 
Smart quotes don't need to be there.
Could do with better packaging for my MakeDoc script, but so far it's holding up without modification (except the outline bug, which would've affected TOC gen).
 
good design
 
We'll see :)
Can't do any more for now though. Must find sleep.
 
appreciated
 
5:31 AM
Goal is to make sure HTML rendering is correct, then convert that to AsciiDoc renderer (which in theory should be the easy part).
 
well, there's sample html output there on their site :)
Mine is an approximation
 
Looks like the doc has been edited though.
Or a big chunk is missing.
 
in which case the mdp version should be on S's github/documentation repo
hopefully
 
Well, whatever—just testing for now.
I assume there are other challenges yet to be met...
 
I must get back to using Gab's FSM
Wonder if we could incorporate it into R3 mainline
 
5:41 AM
Line 329 has an indent—need to find out if that is commonly ignored...
@GrahamChiu I would lean yes—it has more uses than just this.
It's a relatively small piece of code too.
 
I used it on a version of the smtp protocol .. but didn't go further since I didn't know how it would be taken
 
It was a good fit for that, iirc?
 
adrift in a sea of uncertainty
yeah .. seemed to make the code easier
 
There's a lot of loose pieces floating around that can/will/should come back together to build something compelling.
 
mostly embalmed in R2
Fork would like this to be the cultural revolution .. hopefully it will be the great leap forward
 
5:52 AM
For now. For my part I'm not going to let it all rot.
 
AFAIK, you're the only one digging into those archives
 
Not a cheery thought, I suppose. But I think it's healthier outlook than it was. New PARSE should win people over, even if it takes a little while.
 
Guess I should look into parse for R3 since I seem to need to use it more and more
@rgchris OTOH, it may well be active code at Prolific
 
I will take @HostileFork's challenge to convert QM to R3, and that may also mean looking at MySQL as well. I don't know if anyone's done that yet.
 
ODBC only AFAIK
and an unreleased sqlite
 
6:03 AM
I've already reorganised it a fair bit so that I understand it a little better.
The version in QM is not copy/paste.
 
I dunno the fascination with mysql
And there's postgresql
there are free versions of Oracle and DB2
 
Ubiquity. It's available on virtually every web host.
 
@rgchris I stir, as, I sleep cuddling my laptop..and was awoken by a beep. But on the QM R3 port: remember R3/backward, it is the first thing I would be doing if anyone seemed to really have my back on the Red port. (Which practically worked, y'know. People weren't that impressed.)
 
I didn't fully appreciate it as you were doing it, in fairness. I do now...
 
@GrahamChiu MySql is like PHP. Pervasive garbage.
 
6:08 AM
@HostileFork It's a means to an end. I'm using it reluctantly, but as invisibly as I can get away with.
 
@rgchris Well, I think we must balance our judgment against people's goodhearted decision to use whatever tools they have to provide uptime. It truly is a poor carpenter who blames the tools. However, I'm an engineer. Not a carpenter. That is a different famous religious figure. :-P
 
@HostileFork I don't think I need /Backward for QM—I just need to get in there and replace the bits that need replacing. I think it's clean enough code not to require a major overhaul.
 
@HostileFork I don't understand why this is not understood
there are free versions of Oracle and DB2
I dunno the fascination with mysql
 
@GrahamChiu Or PostgreSQL.
 
@HostileFork Mentioned .. but having connectivity issues
 
6:15 AM
I think that when you put "My" in front of something, it makes it seem friendly. Like "MySpace". Everyone keeps wanting me to join this, it's all the rage with the kids.
 
I see salesforce has just hired a leading figure from the PG movement raising speculation that it is trying to drop its ties to Oracle
 
PostgreSpace, on the other hand, isn't doing so well last I checked.
 
Say I were to switch to PostgreSQL, for example (or make it another option), what would I gain?
(as I said, I picked MySQL for it's ubiquity and that there was a working driver)
I hadn't touched it before last year (and only did so as what I was using wasn't working).
Bear in mind, for the most part a QM app doesn't see much SQL.
 
Are there still 5 different versions of mysql?
 
5 * however many incremental versions per major release. I only see 5.5 though.
 
6:23 AM
@rgchris I mean when you use it, don't you have to pick which db engine you use?
 
Yes, I made my choice based on the most likely common usage.
 
@rgchris comparison To be honest, I don't care much about tabular databases anymore. (Formerly worked on MS SQL server and MS Access products.) But I have been puzzled about what MySQL is, it is awkward and I can't really get my head around what features they implemented that makes it anything but a hard to use version of SQLite
 
Looks like there are a lot more than 5 engines that I vaguely remembered en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_MySQL_database_engines
 
@HostileFork I am starting to evaluate alternatives, but for the purposes of a web framework that will install on basic hosting packages—they're not yet an option.
 
@rgchris Embrace, extend, extinguish. No harm in making a Rebol system that uses the most popular database or HTML or building it to run on Javascript. It's a dead end to believe you have to be a universe unto yourself.
 
6:32 AM
When I was looking at this I wanted something ACID compliant, and with replication support.
 
@rgchris Just remember that diplomacy is knowing how to say "nice doggy" until you find a stick. Nite all :-)
 
@HostileFork I'm a little sleepy—am I believing this?
 
And license friendly .. GPL ruled out mysql
 
Not forgetting MariaDB which is a fork of mysql after the Oracle purchase
Again, gpl
 
For rebolers there is little choice since the free connectors were mysql and postgresql written by doc
 
6:38 AM
Really, for now I'm tied to the Active Record pattern. Where I don't like MySQL (or tabular databases) is that you can only use the keys/columns you define in the table (I miss the free-form of my flat-file system). What I gain is faster queries and less filesystem headaches. For now I'm dealing with that tradeoff. Until something better becomes usable.
 
I wrote the OpenDBX interface for R2 linuxnetworks.de/doc/index.php/OpenDBX/Support
sadly it seems to have stalled at v1.4
@Adrian has this on his todo list trello.com/card/…
 
 
2 hours later…
8:31 AM
@HostileFork I've created a Trello account (user: draegtun). If you add me then I'll create a "doing task" for my Google Code Prettifier work which is ready for community inspection :)
 
8:43 AM
@draegtun Not sure if @HostileFork is around so I just added you in to Trello
 
Thanks :9881174
@johnk Try again.. thanks :)
Yep... I see notification on Trello
Now I have to get my head around how to use Trello :) I'll try that later on (today) when I've got bit more time
 
@draegtun It is surprisingly quick and intuituve
 
@johnk yes it does look dead easy
 
9:07 AM
@draegtun google code?
 
9:54 AM
@rebolbot what is the time now?
 
@johnk Sat, 8 Jun 2013 09:54:58 +0000
 
@GrahamChiu Google Code Prettifier - its what Stackoverflow use to syntax highlight their code here
I've created the necessary Rebol grammar - draegtun.github.io/PrettifyRebol
And I've just created Trello card with status update
 
10:11 AM
cool
 
I'll just see if anyone here in community has got any comments on my Rebol grammar definitions. If no issues then I'll send of patch to get it added in GCP core.
 
 
3 hours later…
1:03 PM
@Adrian @GrahamChiu I finished (almost) all of the updates to the module based bot with the exception of save my details. See if anything else looks broken if you get time. I'll roll my updates into a pull request soon (as they are only on the EC2 box at the moment)
cheers -J
 
 
2 hours later…
3:00 PM
"Pirsig's line plays off a line in the Platonic dialogue "The Phaedrus", which reads: 'And what is well and what is badly—need we ask Lysias, or any other poet or orator, who ever wrote or will write either a political or any other work, in metre or out of metre, poet or prose writer, to teach us this?'"
 
 
4 hours later…
6:51 PM
Anyways, moving on from self-analysis: @GrahamChiu you have the boilerplate split into authors/date—is that something you wanted intentionally?
 
7:01 PM
What are all the inline formatting codes? I notice ~* as well as f: and w: prefixes...
 
7:49 PM
@rgchris I think the prefixes are based on Carl's r3 docs: rebol.com/r3/docs/markup.html#section-6
So mostly just shortcuts for links.
 
Thks...
@earl Did all of these make it into MDP?
 
@rgchris I think f: is function, w: is word, and can't remember ~. I parse these out and turn into italic or whatever. At some stage the parser was going to generate links to the online dictionary that they refer to. MDP does not know how to parse these and leaves them intact.
 
~ is code.
I haven't come across f: or w: in samples as yet.
 
@rgchris Asciidoc is a document markup language. It has formatting for author, date, revision date, email etc so I grab those if present ( not always ) and use them
:author: ...
:date: ...
:email: <...>
 
Ok.
I hadn't seen the R3 docs link—it's open season with new markup conventions :)
 
8:05 PM
@rgchris that is Carl's WIP or MD3
 
Yep.
I saw the f: in your source, so wasn't sure if it was in MDP or not...
 
Ok, this one has all kinds of markup in it—do not like the look of those tables.
 
I got caught by things like

waif:
newline content

so had to check for spaces before and ascii after the f:
 
I shouldn't have that problem.
 
8:11 PM
tables are a sore point
Some have header rows and some do not .. no indication given in the markup
some rows are writ by some authors on newlines with blank lines between
And some with each cell on a new line
guess it shows some flexibility !
 
Having the pipes at the end of the line is going to mean some messy code...
Sigh.
 
like mine?
I took to attempting some pre-processing ... github.com/gchiu/Rebol2/blob/master/Scripts/mdp2asciidoc.r#L137
 
I saw that. Don't like to do that, but needs be as needs must...
I can see now why MakeDoc has become unpopular. I need to rename mine...
 
MakeBetterDoc ? MakeLessDoc
 
MakeSenseDoc.
I was actually thinking of a concise table notation (with something that says that's what you're doing!)
Instead of this:
\table
Function |
Description ||
dump-face |
print information about a face ||
dump-layout |
print information about a layout
/table
It'd be:
\table concise

Function
Description

dump-face
print information about a face

dump-layout
print information about a layout

/table
 
8:25 PM
I think it's the wrong way round
People talk of / being a forwards-slash, and \ being a backwards one
so /table should be entry and \table exit
 
Yeah, I always wondered about the curious \/ thing as well ...
 
Well, I'm still using the old Make-Doc conventions. But I see your point.
/table concise

Function
dump-face
dump-layout

Description
print information about a face
print information about a layout

\table
 
/table opt header
 
Switching the data around?
 
I think it's easier that way to remember which way it goes
 
8:28 PM
The slash notation, or the cell order?
 
What do you think about switching rows/columns?
 
Previous cell order (row-by-row) was better.
But you could just support both (concise rows / concise cols).
 
I like asciidoc tables because they are tables!
 
Harder to edit though. IMO.
 
8:31 PM
well, if we have our way, mdp will become extinct
 
/table concise descending
 
for most people, writing docs is an infrequent exercise. having too many options is just confusing
which is why we moved from wordperfect to word
 
@GrahamChiu I agree, but—I've cleaned up enough messes to be afraid of AsciiDoc.
As an authoring format.
 
@rgchris What dialect are you currently using for authoring?
 
for small docs makedoc is fine. But it has severe limitations
 
8:36 PM
Pretty much a variant of MakeDoc 2.
 
One size does not fit all ... and turning 300 page documents into a single html page is unforgiveable!
 
Generally with vocabulary modified to the particular domain.
 
So lots of \commands and =commands?
 
If people want to write one page docs, use makedoc, if you want to write serious documentation use the right tool.
 
Not lots, I wouldn't say. But yes, that's the general control syntax.
@GrahamChiu Depends on how it's to be published.
 
8:40 PM
I would like to see the potential to turn all the docs into a book ... lulu or whatever
 
I'm moving away a bit from =command syntax to a onebox-ey way of including third party content.
 
@earl see my link to asciidoctor?
 
One thing I do value is consistency—as few variants to the basic rules as possible.
That's why it's a little horrific approaching these docs...
 
so a format that is less forgiving is better?
 
@rgchris Is that an accurate summary of MakeDoc2: gist.github.com/earl/19e1d9c04a6f93e17ba5 ?
 
8:44 PM
As was, yes.
 
So what are you using / preferring?
 
@GrahamChiu Perhaps, but less prone to surprises.
 
@GrahamChiu Saw that, yes.
 
@earl Not sure what you mean? I still open with \open and close with /close
 
From the "as was" I gather that you are not using that anymore or have extended it or something.
 
8:47 PM
I don't exactly use the same vocabulary, but the principles are the same.
 
I'm still trying to find out why you consider other formats "hostile".
 
The idea is more expression, less options.
 
But that's really going to be rather impossible if I don't know what to compare to.
 
Is this a fair representation of AsciiDoc? powerman.name/doc/asciidoc
 
looks like the cheatsheet I use!
though I think there's going to be an improved table syntax
 
8:51 PM
To my eyes, that looks painful and seems awfully verbose to type.
It's comprehensive in terms of what you can produce with it, but so is HTML.
 
it doesn't get in the way like html
 
@rgchris Depends.
 
@earl My eyes, my rules!
 
Remind me what \in does?
 
Indent—in Make Doc 2.
 
8:55 PM
Format a para as verbatim?
Or just format the para offset to the left?
 
That's up to me. It depends on context.
 
So it just flags a para with an 'indent type.
 
If I were using it, it would create an indented section. I don't use it though.
It's a visual command, not semantic.
 
I said, I don't use the same vocabulary.
 
8:59 PM
Yeah, but you didn't say which vocabulary you use, so I can't do anything with that :)
 
I create a vocabulary dependent on context.
 
So if the context is general documentation of R3?
 
We'd establish a vocabulary specification and use it.
 
I know that part of Gabriele's vision with MD3 was being able to embed the markup grammar within the marked up document. Doesn't strike me as very practical in a multi-author setting, though.
 
Perhaps not within the document, but I don't think it's unreasonable to attach to a project.
 
9:04 PM
Maybe. Otoh, I'm really happy about the pervasiveness of Markdown.
 
@earl does it have a header structure?
 
It still can lead to inconsistent results. Different ways of expressing similar constructs.
 
@GrahamChiu Sure.
@rgchris Haven't yet found a markup where that situation didn't arise.
 
well, I have moved all the docs to markdown (md) and asciidoc ( adoc) so that github displays them now
 
Perhaps, but I'm happy with the consistency I get with my approach.
 
9:06 PM
the MD ones are the ones I grabbed from SO answers
 
@rgchris I'm generally happy with the my single-author consistency as well :)
 
It's good that we're both happy!
 
but not with each other!
 
I actually like Gab's MD3 approach quite a lot.
@GrahamChiu Re Markdown headers: gist.github.com/earl/5d27f69fcaaaef38e243 -- one rebol.net Wiki page transliterated to Markdown.
(Click the <> "View Raw" button at the top right of the doc to see the input markup.)
 
I've never liked the pseudo-underlining of headers.
 
9:17 PM
Reads well.
But you can also use #, ##, ###, etc.
 
Definitely subjective.
I know, it's not the only way.
It seems to be a throw back to typewriters.
(which aside from learning to touch-type, I haven't used much)
@earl @GrahamChiu I suppose a table row can be on one line with pipes in between also?
 
I think one of Markdown's original goals was for the markup to read well, when sent across eg Email.
 
I like Markdown's hyperlinks. Need to figure out the best way to include them.
 
And I in fact do the underlining of headers in email quite a bit (irrespective of Markdown), but then I'm still using non-html mail for everything I write.
@GrahamChiu Sorry, accidentally deleted the earlier Gist. Here's it again: gist.github.com/earl/d18a31a97ca3982d6530
 
@earl Whoops ?
 
@GrahamChiu @earl Could you get an MDP table like this?
\table
Function|Description||dump-face|print information about a face||dump-layout|print information about a layout
/table
 
Never seen it like this
 
@rgchris I think so, but I don't use MDP.
 
@earl Ok, wasn't sure if you also produced Saphirion docs too...
 
@earl Odd .. maybe somehow I missed scraping that one?
 
9:31 PM
@GrahamChiu No, you didn't. Just wanted to show you an example of Markdown headers.
Indeed, I don't see it in the scrape either.
 
I was looking for author, date etc style
@earl Ok, will have to see why it's not in allpages or whatever
 
@GrahamChiu Ah, you meant a preface / title block. Sorry, misunderstood.
Pandoc's Markdown supports that as well:
% title
% author(s)
% date
@rgchris But I understood you right that you use Gab's MD3 ("GMD3"?) for all your custom markup vocabularies?
 
@earl I don't use his (very elegant) parser blocks—they weren't flexible enough to experiment.
But otherwise, try to stay in the same spirit.
 
Aw, too bad.
So you just generate the intermediate structure from your own scanners/parsers?
 
Right. For example, I don't think it'd be possible to express []() links with his notation.
I'd like to get back to that though once I figure out a few more patterns.
I'm still struggling with how best to express that myself. I mean, I know I could do it, but I'm not sure how you could get it back to a concise rule for generating parse rules.
 
9:54 PM
@earl ah..ok, better edit my ones then.
@RebolBot version
 
@GrahamChiu 0.0.41 9-Jun-2013
 
@rebolbot delete loud
 
@GrahamChiu Can you elaborate on that?
 
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