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12:13 AM
@Adrian latest pushed to git
 
 
3 hours later…
3:11 AM
@adrian are you pushing this new repo for the bot tonight?
 
4:10 AM
Just came back from my midnight dinner - about to start some testing to see what I've broken.
I incorporated your latest changes too.
I'm feeling pretty tired, so if things don't go well, I probably won't stay too long and work on it tomorrow.
Also not sure I want to bother creating a repo under my name and then have to move things over to rebolsource, if @earl is OK with that. It shouln't be a big hassle for him to create a RebolBot repo under rebolsource, add us as collaborators and let us worry about the rest.
 
4:28 AM
perhaps just send me what you've got so I can see the plan
@RebolBot
help load
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> help load
USAGE:
    LOAD source /header /all /type ftype /next

DESCRIPTION:
    Loads code or data from a file, URL, string, or binary.
    LOAD is a function value.

ARGUMENTS:
    source -- Source or block of sources (file! url! string! binary! block!)

REFINEMENTS:
    /header -- Result includes REBOL header object (preempts /all)
    /all -- Load all values (does not evaluate REBOL header)
    /type -- Override default file-type; use NONE to always load as code
 
well, I'm having a problem from the get-go - I lost a [ somewhere
 
@Adrian eek
 
How do I find out where? The output is not very helpful.
Let me zip it up and send it - it shouldn't be that hard to locate.
Are you OK with trying to help with this? Don't want to give you work if you've got something better to do.
 
sure .. zip it
btw, compkarori.com/reb/clean.exe is a gui tool to help find missing [ ]
in so much it's a pretty print with a gui on it .. so helps find matching brackets
 
4:40 AM
skype?
 
 
3 hours later…
7:57 AM
I guess it was just a matter of time before I had to learn how ports worked.
One reason, I believe, that port schemes have been so drastically incomplete is because the design motivations simply have not been explained well enough.
@mmcghan, @GrahamChiu, and I perhaps are about to end that.
Anything new lately, @Ladislav?
 
@HostileFork Test gist.github.com/ladislav/5319674 , if you want to check how URL can be implemented in Rebol
2
Example:

>> mold-url load-url "http://a.b.c/d?e=f%26&g=%c4%8d"
== "http://a.b.c/d?e=f%26&g=č"
(but I guess for you from US non-ascii features are not a big advantage...)
However, this should have bothered you as well:

>> mold-url load-url "http://a.b.c/d?e=f%26&g=h"
== "http://a.b.c/d?e=f%26&g=h"
(the current implementaion behaves incorrectly as the CC #2011 documents)
 
@Ladislav Hm, interesting, I was just looking at the R3 functions for sys/*parse-url...and wondering if the decode-url, although undocumented, could be used semi-"legitimately" wiith a single call to open that doesn't connect, then peeking at the port's /spec, and closing it without ever connecting.
You can call it directly, but that seems like it would be discouraged, what with the asterisk and all.
 
8:12 AM
@HostileFork The current problem is that DECODE-URL works on URLs that are handled incorrectly and cannot correct the bugs introduced by LOAD
 
@Ladislav I actually intend to potentially try and work on grants to get Rebol, with its words translated into the native languages of countries, used for educational purposes in countries with computers and people/children who do not speak English. I find it's an often excuse that "anyone who wants to do programming knows/learns English" but this is subject to a high selection bias. It leaves a lot of people out of cultivating an interest.
And thus, the Unicode issues are a big deal to me.
It kind of has to work, first.
 
Aha, in that case it might be of interest to you to test what the above LOAD-URL function does, i.e., how the result URL looks. (you can check the characters in the URL or use TO-STRING to see how it looks)
Any specific language(s) you would like to work?
 
@Ladislav It would be easiest with the contacts I have to leverage their experience in working with underprivileged children Spanish-speaking countries. It's an advantage that I speak a slightly okay amount of Spanish and spent a month in Mexico city and some time in Spain. I have not done extensive research but only theorized this...and seen it as "a vision"...I need to get a good translation of the base word set and understand what kinds of problems would emerge with some test subjects.
It would not be hard to find people who would volunteer to try, or do a focus group for small sums.
 
Hmm, then it might make sense to test URLs containing characters specific for Spain. I do not even know which characters are specific for Spain, though...
 
@Ladislav They are a sort of easy one as Unicode goes. It's nothing like the Linear B Zen Cow :-P
A few accents and tildes, upside down punctuation. Just enough to get marginalized by ascii.
@Ladislav did you ever see my design for USCII? The spec generator was one of my first Rebol programs. Historians will look back upon me as having great foresight, I am sure of it. :-)
 
8:29 AM
For those who aren't on AltME - Initial commit to github.com/humanistic/REN was done. REN is data notation format ( = something like JSON) based on Rebol syntax (but that's secret and we never mention it in public). Feel free to improve the documentation and if you want write REN loader/saver for some language, you are mostly welcome!
 
@rebolek Okay, third mention in the last two days, I'll read the README. :-)
Then I'll get started on creating STIMPY :-P
 
@HostileFork Only third? That's not enough!
 
@rebolek I met one of the creators of YAML. I was confused about what the merits were. He explained it to me. He also explained how there were thermal printers that you could cause to cut the paper by just using TTY commands to drive them back and forth printing dashes by using newlines and no linefeeds. :-)
@rebolek YAML was getting adoption in various places, and I wondered why the people weren't using JSON. There were a number of reasons, which I thought were kind of like reasons people would choose Rebol if they knew about it. One thing I did not know about JSON was that the standard did not allow comments (well, outside of making fields named "comment" which might get accidentally passed around to systems that don't know to ignore it).
 
@HostileFork Well, let's hope we can do better than both JSON and YAML :)
 
@rebolek Basically, configuration files need comments. Rebol can do that, but the one thing Rebol was weak in is the Achilles heel of Rebol dialects when going up against cheap tailored text file solutions. The psychological problem is that in some circumstances, somewhere, people simply don't like enclosing strings in braces or quotes or anything. It's kind of like the reasons that Rebol rejects the ugliness of delimiters, except in a "can't see the forest for the trees" kind of way.
Nowadays we see some other weaknesses I think. We'd like to make it so that @Whatever is not rejected as a valid "email" or whatever we call it. There are other nitpicks like this. But what I realized was that people reject the requirement to enclose stringy thingies in braces or quotes or what-have-you...just as you would not be pleased to be forced to begin every chat message here with { and end it with }. That would kill a chat program, it can kill a dialect.
They'll use some cue like indentation before they'll accept the idea that each arbitrary string must be delimited. You'll pry their delimiterless-string-methodology which is general and flexible out of their cold dead hands.
The only way Rebol can beat this rap is with PARSE-based preprocessors that give them what they want, produce nice Rebol or REN or whatever you want to call it, and then hope that one day they want to remove the scaffolding and live closer to the metal.
 
8:47 AM
It's data format so it shouldn't have same limitations as REBOL code. We can have for example string that starts with @nick and ends with newline and doesn't require quotes or braces.
 
@rebolek Well I had assumed the trick is REN as in RENAME. As in Rebol has good properties but no marketing as purely a data format and not an obscure language. I haven't read the discussions. If there is a plan for finessing arbitrary strings cued by some sort of engineering solution to that problem, then it might work. It won't work without it is all I'm warning you about.
I personally am trying to disentwine Rebol's association with the DO dialect. So I approve of any effort to un-define or re-define Rebol so people don't pick bones with "I don't like how your language does iteratiion, I like my language better". It misses the point.
 
Well I really like DO dialect, but REN has no association with it. It's offered as data format only. Not a language.
 
9:27 AM
Hello @user2098587...welcome to StackOverflow! We're always interested in talking about it with new people, unfortunately it is site policy (not ours) to require 20 reputation points to chat. You can read our FAQ for some information, and come back when you've got the points...which aren't hard to get, and we can help you if your two answers (or four questions) are good enough to upvote. :-)
 
@HostileFork @user2098587 must be a frequent visitor as rebolbot must know him :)
 
@RebolBot
print {Fork said "We're always interested"...but rumor is he sleeps sometimes. I don't! I run code for the Rebol room 24/7. Though @GrahamChiu murders me occasionally. He might have done so which is why I *actually* haven't greeted you...}
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> print {Fork said "We're always interested"...but rumor is he sleeps sometimes.  I don't!  I run code for the Rebol room 24/7.  Though @GrahamChiu murders me occasionally.  He might have done so which is why I *actually* haven't greeted you...}
Fork said "We're always interested"...but rumor is he sleeps sometimes.  I don't!  I run code for the Rebol room 24/7.  Though @GrahamChiu murders me occasionally.  He might have done so which is why I *actually* haven't greeted you...
 
room topic changed to Rebol (and Red): REN vs. YAML vs. STIMPY rebolsource.net/go/chat-faq [dialect] [interpreter] [json] [lisp] [rebol] [rebol3]
 
Hard to beat a notation that doesn't require quoted strings
 
9:41 AM
@GrahamChiu Well text files and text editors bug me, and it all feels very retro. Like manually placing data in particular tracks and sectors of a disk because some of them can be accessed faster than others. Think I do it for the lulz these days. Kind of a raking-the-sand Zen meditation. Rebol is just a sand that packs well into castles and has only a few stinging jellyfish and a bit of seaweed and discarded medical waste.
@GrahamChiu Anyway, we hope to get you a tour-de-force comprehensive...draft of an all new URL scheme document tomorrow...it has evolved. As has the fact that I now know what the design is about, and believe I have managed to explain it.
Hold your suspense, but it's currently rather late, so gotta sleep...TTYT
 
I'm having a look at Adrian's deconstruction of rebolbot :)
 
Another thing I need to look at closer! :-/
 
10:37 AM
any module experts here?
 
10:50 AM
@Adrian I posted some private messages on altme. Need to export reply etc from the api file, but even then, the stub functions are being called.
 
11:05 AM
So the imported functions bind to the stub functions. I don't get how they are to rebind to the actual functions when they are defined.
 
 
4 hours later…
3:10 PM
1
Q: rebol getting the line in an area by the caret position

Georges BordaisHow do I get the line in an area where the carret is positionned ? For example, by putting the caret on line 0816 (anywhere on the line), how do i get the line "0816 LEANYER NT DARWIN DELIVERY CENTRE" ? thanks rebol [] sample-data: [ "0810 TIWI NT DARWIN DELIVERY CENTRE" "0811 WAGAMAN NT DARWIN...

 
3:56 PM
What's the deal with the spam robots in this room ?
Since I once joined this room by mistake, I keep getting spammed by useless messages about Rebol every day. I don't even know what the fuck this thing is but I already hate it.
 
4:08 PM
@ereOn, what do you mean? Where are you getting the spam?
The only bot in this room is RebolBot and he doesn't spam. Unless you call the greeting he issues to new visitors to the room spam.
@ereOn, are you maybe talking about the Rebol page on Facebook? When you join that group, you end up getting emails when new posts are made to the group.
 
4:59 PM
@ereOn Can you give an example of these? If you consider this message to be one, and it's in your SO inbox, the reason you are being notified is because that is how chat works when you are referenced with an @ or a reply to a message you wrote. We greet people who join the room, and you had done so...it's just outreach. You were sent exactly 4 of these, before your complaint caused 3 follow-ups.
 
5:10 PM
0
Q: Do not give lurkers SO inbox chat notifications for rooms they've never spoken in

HostileForkChat room lurking is a way of checking out if one is interested in a room or not. A lot of people do it and never speak, and they may hang out in the room for a while intentionally (or unintentionally, if they don't realize they never actually signed out of it in the chat interface). For people...

I think that is probably his complaint.
Hey @RoyBatty. What's new? I may have mentioned before that the star list is our bookmarking method for catching up with any conversation points that are notable if one doesn't check in for a bit...
 
Hi, yeah I see the star list
 
@GrahamChiu Figured out how it all works. Need to make a few small changes, but it's looking good.
 
damn, now I'm not a creepy lurker
I was curious about Red reusing REBOL library code. Is Red going to be able to reuse REBOL library code? I'm assuming Apache and BSD licenses are compatible
Or will Red language be different enough so that's not feasible?
 
@RoyBatty Licensing-wise, yes. The question of exactly how different Rebol and Red will need to be is still in flux, and it depends on how much meeting-of-the-minds there is between folks like @BrianH and @DocKimbel. Our first tier of compatibility hasn't been hammered out...which would be merely to have the same rules in parsing so the two could load each other's files even as data.
If that goal is reached, then it may be possible to move on to the next question of whether Rebol and Red have a meaningful compatible subset. It would be libraries that used this subset that would have the potential to work in either. A bit of a long shot that this will come together, but I think it's worth thinking about if there is any "low-hanging-fruit" in that area.
I think the compatibility of the data format itself should be something we all agree is very important. And right now, it mostly is. It's not necessary that each language implement all of each other's types in order to inspect what the type of something is...it could just be a stub that has a few trivial features.
 
5:28 PM
ok, thanks hostile
 
@BrianH, deprecated, inaccurate documentation is not helping when it comes to understanding modules. Can we get talk about some kind of cleanup around the subject. I think the module system is great, but the doc that is out there hampers understanding for various reasons - inaccuracy, no-longer being relevant, you being too close to the code and understandably taking for granted some things that someone just coming in to this implementation needs very, clear spelling out of some details.
You go in amazing depth in your answers, in general, but again, you're too close to see where more explanation is needed. Often it's just a matter of a couple of words to clarify what exactly you mean.
For myself, I think I'm finally getting it, but I had to go over some things a bunch of times (yes, I'm pretty thick) before some of your details sank in. So, for others' sake and my own further information, do you think you'd have some time to talk about what needs cleaning up or expanding upon?
 
@ereOn Last unsolicited message to you from me: As the lurker in question in this meta post, you may wish to weigh in. I try to solve your complaint by suggesting people who join a room and never speak don't get SO inbox notifications. But people don't seem to like my idea, and if they won't do it then the "spam" will happen if you ever join a room and people choose to greet you by mentioning you with @.
 
6:12 PM
@Adrian the only reason that there is no high-level documentation on the module system is that my knowledge of the details is too in-depth to be able to write simplified docs for newbies. The rebol.com docs are not open source and can only be updated by Carl, who isn't doing that kind of thing nowadays. I wrote those SO articles as a reference for others to write docs from.
 
@Adrian so how did you solve the binding issue?
 
As with a lot of R3, a particular style and structural model of programming is encouraged (see the port model discussions for another example of this). Nonetheless, pretty much any model is supported if you specify options.
 
so @Brian emulating Carl's writing style is beyond you?
 
For the module system, the default way of structuring applications is to have the top level application be a script, and the libraries be regular modules. The main export model is built around this model. One of the intended advantages of this model is to make the Needs header unnecessary in most code, so that Rebol scripts can be written in a non-modular single-tasking style but still get the benefit of a modular, multitasking infrastructure.
 
How can modules use words defined in main script?
 
6:22 PM
@GrahamChiu pretty much. I can understand his intentions in depth, even by looking at his code, but it's really difficult to write in his style. For that matter, even my programming style is more robust and thorough than his.
 
So we have to ask you point by point?
 
@GrahamChiu modules can refer to the current user context through system/contexts/user. All scripts (running in the same thread) share the same (task-local) context, known as the user context. Except that task-local stuff is still planned, part of the model but not yet part of the implementation.
@GrahamChiu that works for some people. Different people learn in different ways.
Carl's writing reminds me of what authors say about Asimov. His writing style looks simple and is easy to understand, but it is really difficult to write that way.
 
REBOL.net wiki is still working
 
Writing docs is really difficult and time-consuming for me. Just writing those SO articles took at least a week of my time, and I didn't have that to spare. Chatting is easier, so it takes less of my time. Even programming takes less time than writing docs.
 
I wonder how this chat room works in IE6
 
6:33 PM
writing docs is hard which is why few do it
 
This is not necessarily the case for other people. There are those in the community that are much better at writing docs than I am (hi Gregg!). The most I can hope to do is to write docs for those people, and then have them write docs for the rest.
For that matter, now that the reword rewrite has been accepted into the community repo, I have to allocate time to edit the SO article to match the new behavior. Or at least I should after rebolsource.net includes community build binaries for download (I'd have to wait anyway because I'm going to be extra busy for a few weeks).
For instance, recent arguments have made it clear that we need docs about the programming model that R3 is designed to encourage, and why it is designed that way. People just aren't getting the downsides of fighting the model.
 
7:18 PM
@BrianH, are you still here?
@GrahamChiu, are you?
 
@Adrian Vaguely. Getting ready to go on an errand.
 
@BrianH, I'm up for writing some documentation, but I need you to fill in the details here and there. For the SO answer you have on modules, for example, I was thinking to take the markdown text for it, add my own questions surrounded by (** **) and have you maybe add what I feel is missing. Would that be OK for you?
@BrianH, I was going to ask what you thought of the way I restructured the bot source.
Just the main points, not in detail. Can do this whenever you have more time.
Wrt, SO, I don't know if the best way to hash out a more understandable answer for newbs is through the comment system. Seems to tedious like that.
 
Yes, present
 
Wanted to explain what I did.
 
7:28 PM
I'll outline what the goal was and maybe @BrianH can comment when he has a chance.
 
@Adrian sure. I had an idea just now for how to structure the doc story. The different module types can be put in order, going from end user to the most advanced. Would it make sense to you to read docs that do a progressive reveal like that?
 
sure
But for a start, we need to delete outdated module info on the wiki or wherever.
That's just needless encouragement to get lost.
 
We can't delete anything on rebol.com yet (since Carl is the one who does it).
 
If things can't be deleted, like maybe on rebol.com, at least there should be flashing signs saying avoid this
We can have a clearer situation than what exists now wrt modules, I believe.
 
@RoyBatty Hey, I mentioned the avatar thing didn't I? You can set it under your SO account without using gravatar (as of this year). Any square will do, but when we see non-avatars we assume "new SO user" and have to check in with them. If there's an avatar we recognize, it's easier to not go through those motions. :-) Takes a little bit of time to refresh in chat after the change...
 
7:33 PM
So, for the bot, what I did was to have the main bot script import all commands as modules. These modules all Need: another api module of a certain version. This api module exports (to lib) all the words that are ultimately to be defined/overridden in the main bot script.
The api module will have words set to the values they will have when overridden/defined by the main script so that a command module can just look at/use the api module and know what words are relevant for a given version of the api (along with their signature).
In the main script, when defining/overriding the words promised (exported) by the api module, you would use lib/word to make sure you change the lib binding that was established by the exported api words.
Does this make sense so far, @BrianH, @GrahamChiu? I've tested it and everything seems to work the way I intended.
 
@Adrian Sounds good, but you probably don't need the Needs header in your bot modules if your API isn't private (meaning: it exports to lib). Everything exported to lib is imported into all scripts and modules that are created later. So you only have to import a regular module once, and your bot scripts don't need to refer to it at all.
 
Command modules have Options: [private] so they don't pollute any other namespace.
 
@Adrian Sounds good.
 
I want to tie the modules down to a specific version of the api module, though.
There should be at least an attempt for a 'contract' even if it's not ultimately enforceable.
 
@Adrian it doesn't work that way. The version you specify with Needs is the minimum you require. At the moment, you need to specify checksums to mandate a particular API. There isn't currently a way to have multiple APIs concurrently loaded without having the API be private and giving them different names.
 
7:43 PM
There is some binding happening wrt some parsing done in the main script which uses a concatenated set of rules defined in the individual command modules, that seems wonderfully magic and, when you have a chance it would be great if you could explain a bit more.
Hmm, for the versioning. I was going to ask if we can't set up ranges since, as I now remember reading and see you now reminding me, you only specify the minimum.
 
@RebolBot save greetings? "Should the inbox notifications to room visitors mean we should not greet them?" meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/175482
@GrahamChiu Is RebolBot sleeping on the job again? Maybe eliminating all the humans was not the great idea it seemed to be... :-P
 
For versioning, only a single version of a regular module is considered currently loaded at a time. There is no concurrent loading of multiple versions of a regular module. Modules are usually used to wrap shared state, and multiple concurrent versions would wrap multiple copies of that state. New versions of a module are considered to be strict supersets. If they aren't, you are supposed to use a different name, or design the modules to be private.
Internally it gets more complex than that, since modules can access previously loaded versions to migrate their shared state to the new version, but that is a more advanced topic that doesn't have a lot of mezz helper code yet.
 
I understand the current situation limits having multiple versions of a given named module around. If this is because only the name is considered, could we not think about having the internally stored identity of a module include the version as some sort of hash that would allow for modules of the same name, but with non-intersecting version ranges to co-exist?
@BrianH "New versions of a module are considered to be strict supersets."
I'm not clear in what way you mean. Is it that they should only add new words and not modify the (type) definition of words defined in prior versions?
 
The main problem is that in a language like Rebol, when the whole point of regular modules is managing the shared state of the lib context, there can be only one current version of a module of a given range. It is possible to have multiple concurrently loaded private modules because they don't touch lib, but there is only one lib.
 
So couldn't words have an associated version bound with them?
I mean it seems to be that just the word name is not qualification enough to keep things from clashing in the lib namespace.
Please excuse these questions if they seem naive, btw.
I have some experience with OSGi (a module system used on the JVM), so that's where some of the questions are coming from.
 
7:59 PM
@Adrian no, they have an associated context. When you do an import from lib to a non-isolated module, you are actually using words that are still bound to lib. They aren't copied in unless your module is isolated. Ans scripts are isolated, but they share the isolated context (supposedly per-task) so you can get to that context though system/contexts/user.
@Adrian giving a module the same name as an older module and a newer version number is a statement that you are backwards compatible with previous versions of that name. That is the contract. What "backwards compatible" means is up to you. If you break compatibility, give it a new name to indicate this break.
@Adrian the R3 module system is not traditional. There is a subset that is traditional, but the "regular" model is built around the process of managing shared state (lib, the runtime library) and migrating that shared state to task-shared state (system/contexts/user, the user or script context). It is not strong modularity, it is a way to manage shared state.
 
@BrianH I'm not sure I agree that an api having the same name implies backwards compatibility. Over its evolution, things will need to change (often in a breaking way) in the body of code the api is a contract to. A significant (the specifics can be made clear) version change, can imply loss of backwards compatibility. You are saying that if the changes are so drastic, you should just use a different name.
 
If you want strong modularity, use private modules and you might want to isolate them too. That will let you have things the way you want, even with multiple concurrent versions. But keep in mind that it is not as good at managing shared state, backwards compatibility, or upgrading in place.
 
In the end, this is essentially a not very elegant way of 'versioning'. I mean you shouldn't be forced to have APIs named like: the-first-try, an-improved-one, still-better, and so on.
 
8:14 PM
@Adrian you are not understanding the standard model of R3. The whole point of regular modules is to provide runtime stuff for non-modular, single-tasking scripts. The application is considered to be a whole, and the regular module system is made to make constructing such applications easier to do. You can write a strong modular system with isolated sections if you like, but that requires specifying options.
The whole point of the standard model is to make the programming overhead of a module system as minimal as possible, even to the point that user scripts don't even have to know that R3 is modular, and most Needs headers are unnecessary. For that matter, scripts are even single-tasking, regardless of the multitasking, modular nature of R3 underneath.
The module system can support strong, isolated modularity, if that is your preference. You can make something like Slim on top of R3's module system as long as you have it use the right options. But that is not the "regular" model, the model that you get when you don't specify options.
 
@BrianH What I've brought up had nothing to do with multi-tasking applications. All the concerns I had apply to apps like the bot, for example. For now, I'm just thinking about its evolution in terms of API. You didn't really address the point re. breaking backward compatibility and not wanting to be forced to change my API name if it is clearly specified that compatibility with an API of a certain version is needed in order for a command module to expect to work with the bot.
 
@Adrian well, that is not the "regular" model. You can do that, but that is not the job of regular modules.
 
i.e. why should the main bot code have to provide eternal backwards compatibility?
@BrianH "regular" - this is one of the terms in the SO answer you pointed me to which needs clarification. Regular as opposed to?
as opposed to scripts declaring Type: 'module ?
Btw, if you have to go do you errand, don't let me keep you. We can continue later.
 
@Adrian that is a "script". A "regular module" has a type of module or extension, but no options.
@Adrian because there is only one lib. The whole point of regular modules is to manage lib. Exporting from a non-private module means putting words into one shared runtime object named lib. Each word in lib is only in there once. So, a newer version of a module is expected to upgrade lib with the new exports and completely replace the old version of itself.
And then lib is imported into every subsequently loaded module or script without even having to be mentioned, no Needs or import necessary.
@Adrian The role of R2's system/words has been broken into a single global object named lib and (supposedly) task-local shared contexts named system/contexts/user. The only reason I mentioned multitasking before is because that is the whole reason that we have that split in the first place.
 
8:33 PM
@BrianH Maybe you're thinking that I was asking the above in the context of having a runtime that stays up while you upgrade modules to newer versions. What I was actually asking is more concerning the upgrading of the main bot code and how that affects modules that are out there in the wild.
 
We have options: [private] for a reason. Just because R3's module system is supposed enable a particular application model by default, doesn't mean that we don't optionally support other application models. It sounds like your bot case, if you think backwards compatibility needs to be handled differently, is one of those different models.
 
I would like to be able to make some breaking changes (along with a version increase that indicates this) and know that a command that Needs: version 1 (which, as you've said, is the minimum) of the API will not expect that it would word with a version 5 of the bot (and API).
 
@Adrian see above. That is not the standard R3 model.
 
The bot application, IMO, seems a pretty standard type of application. What is so unusual?
Most applications evolve like this when they're build with modularity in mind and when they have to contend with externally created extensions.
 
That application model is not standard among languages that are normally considered to be Rebol's competitors. Weak modularity is the norm for such languages, usually none at all or just enough to do PITL quickly. Strong modularity is usually reserved for academic or enterprise languages.
 
8:41 PM
In any case, if this is not a considered use-case, can we talk about enabling this type of app as well? I guess I'm not clear what is the typical app evolution that the module system is supposed to facilitate.
Hmm, weak modularity is what you have by default.
 
Most people don't understand modular programming. The default behavior of Rebol is to support such people. Strong modularity is a more advanced style of programming, which we also support with options.
 
When you don't want to think about code evolving and being worked on by various, possibly unconnected parties.
You can see that even with JS, module systems have been developed because it is just impossible to do any decent sized work without this.
Anyhow, I think the module system so far is very promising.
Hopefully you're not against making it have a wider scope.
Just look at something like the bot. With modules, you can now very easily limit the depth of knowledge required to extend it. This should be the case with any application. Modules mitigate the less experienced getting involved because it is easy to sandbox their work while at the same time allowing for them to contribute in a way that can evolve easily.
 
@Adrian that is a more advanced topic. To support design-by-contract we have assert and better type checking; to suppoort untrusted module sources we have module checksums. We even support more advanced strong modularity, and letting people structure their applications however they want. But the default model was designed very carefully for a particular kind of user. The module system itself is progressive-reveal, just like I suggested the docs be.
 
@BrianH All of these things are great to have - I'm not complaining.
 
@Adrian nope, that's cool with me. I hope to help Maxim port Slim to it, so you can have a really advanced strong module system on top of it. I am only concerned with keeping the aim of the default application model the same. I make no constraints on exceptional situations :)
 
8:50 PM
"keeping the aim of the default application model the same" - can you try to really make it clear what is this default?
Doesn't have to be now, if that's what you understood.
It should be a prelude to the module docs, though.
I mean spelling out the features, like you did above, doesn't really characterize the types of apps you had in mind when you designed things.
 
@Adrian progressive reveal is the point of this default. We need to support a beginning user being able to use Rebol without being able to even conceive of a modular multitasking system underneath. So the default behavior is meant to support writing scripts, which appear to be single-tasking and running on a monolithic runtime. Then the "regular" modules are used to build and manage that monolithic runtime so the scripts don't have to.
And more advanced users can make strong modular systems that follow any model they like, not even touching lib or any other shared state if they like.
In the case of your bot system, it looks like you want to have your system support a different kind of clueless newbie. You can do that too, if you want.
With R3's default model, scripts don't even need headers at all. It's amazing what we had to do under the hood to support that kind of thing.
 
@BrianH "running on a monolithic runtime. Then the "regular" modules are used to build and manage that monolithic runtime" - who would be using modules to build and manage things? The newbs you wanted to shield things from?
 
The people who wrote the modules and extensions that the user scripts are using. For that matter, those modules can be loaded from the command line or rebol.r and the scripts don't even have to know that the system is modular underneath. For that matter, R3 itself is supposed to be built out of such modules and still run non-modular scripts.
 
k - got it
I thought I sensed some dissent with the current module implementation (just my interpretation maybe) from some people - notably @earl. Do you know what beef he has with it? That it is the default, built-in system?
I guess he can comment himself, if/when he gets a ping.
 
9:07 PM
@Adrian he has been using R3 for years in a non-standard way because there was a native bug preventing it from being used in the standard way (fixed by him within a week of the open sourcing). So he doesn't see the benefit of a module system that he is already used to not using. Time will show him the benefits.
We should come up with some good application profiles for R3, more than just the standard model. That way someone can just start with one of the example models if they are more advanced newbies :)
 
This is why I wanted RebolBot to be in a rebolsource repo - as an example of an interesting, modular, Rebol application.
I would be great if the community pitched in to make it a better and better example. You know, with the kind of enhancements/optimizations you see going on in AltME some of the time.
 
I think that rebolsource should be a general upstream for projects that originate elsewhere. A place to coordinate efforts. We can't make it a place for everyone to originate efforts without losing the benefits of the review model, afaik.
We don't want to compromise its neutrality.
 
If it is to become the official Rebol repo, and this is what I'm seeing, this is where people will come for Rebol.
You want good examples there.
We are really just beating around the bush and not calling Carl out on some issues.
He is, at this point, doing the community a disservice by, for example, not managing/delegating work that needs to happen on the sanctioned repo and by allowing outdated and confusing/ambiguous documentation to exist on rebol.com
 
It is better as a gathering place. You want good examples there, you want that to be the first place people look, but it is not as good an idea sometimes for things to start there. It better serves the community as an aggregator of forks than as a voice from on high.
 
@BrianH Do you still see Carl having that voice?
He chooses not to. So be it.
 
9:17 PM
Heya @likeitlikeit ! Just discussing some inner Rebol politics here, but happy to explain the language. Ever used a LISP-like language before?
 
@Adrian well, we can criticize that but unless we pay him to do Rebol as his day job better than his current day job is paying him then we have no place to demand anything of him. He doesn't do Rebol for a living.
I am not going to demand that people volunteer to a charity.
BBL, the long-delayed errands have come.
 
You misunderstand - this is not at all criticism. He is obviously free to do whatever he wishes with his time. But I think we can have the expectation that if he doesn't participate, he does not do us a disservice.
 
@Adrian He may be taking a wait-and-see attitude about the efforts. He may want the community to make the first moves. Some moves have been made, and I think rebolsource.net is a well-done improvement for the downloads, and is setting a visual tone for an overall site redesign. But until there's a community repository into which there are changes integrated and he likes the look of it, he may not allow collaborators on the main repo.
 
At the point, the neglected initial GitHub repo and the docs on rebol.com are not neutral. They counter the efforts we are trying to make and it would be easy enough to just shut them down if there is not time/intent to do something.
If he's waiting, then take down old, conflicting info until such a time as he feels we have made an adequate effort.
This is not asking much of him, IMO.
 
There just needs to be a governing structure for how changes are integrated into the community repository. It will start with the ghost of Carl's known preferences having an invisible vote, but real contributors should have a vote...but via a bubbling up process in a tracking database of exactly how it is how a "wish becomes a commit" (as in "How a Bill Becomes a Law")
 
9:25 PM
I just can't believe that Carl, who values simplicity and getting the point across without obfuscation, is encouraging just that by allowing some of his artifacts to create needless confusion in the public eye.
 
Hey @HostileFork have you watched infoq.com/presentations/Reflection-OOP-Social ? I'm wondering what other people think
 
Maybe it's like Tron legacy, and the real Carl is sucked into some futuristic Amiga-derived simulation...while a doppelganger Carl clone that he created to help create the perfect system has turned against him and is actively trying to spread complexity. Perhaps evil Carl is contributing to PHP and RequireJs under a pseudonym as we speak...!
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum will check this out, @BenjaminGruenbaum - looks interesting
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Haven't seen it. Will check it out. Anything else up? I'm working on the network scheme paper...I'd never used port! or bothered to figure out why they were interesting. But I figured it out and have some pretty good explanations. @GrahamChiu cooked up an SL4A port scheme for Rebol which has potential to let us do some interesting native looking apps on Android now that we have Rebol-Android.
 
@HostileFork you think? That could very well be the simplest explanation.
 
9:31 PM
Rebol-Android looks very interesting :)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Since you got involved with helping other explanations, look at this:
result: read foo://1020=blue/bar&red=0304
write foo://1020=blue/bar&red=0304 somedata
This is a "one-off" style port scheme. There is a kind of handler you register for rebol that knows to dispatch the read operations for any foo:// to a certain extension handler.
 
@HostileFork ** Access error: protocol error: "Timeout"
 
I say "one-off" because both the read and write implicitly open a connection and then close it again. It's not persistent. You get a slightly different effect with:
 
@RebolBot version
 
fooport: open foo://1020=blue/bar&red=0304
result: read fooport
write fooport somedata
close fooport
 
9:37 PM
@HostileFork That's interesting, so I'd be able to perform these to file:// http:// and that sort of stuff?
 
@GrahamChiu 0.0.31 6-Apr-2013
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yup, it supports all legal URL "schemes" (well, technically Rebol's URL obeys URI specification). Scheme is just the word before the colon, that's a W3C term I did not know. Anyway, so the important thing to note here is that the same handler code was used in the "open and close later" as in the "one-off" style, it's just that read and write do it implicitly.
 
@likeitlikeit Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ
 
So here's the trick in terms of contrast. If you can, vet my JavaScript example (I don't write much of it and always have to look it up when I do, I use too many languages.)
 
@HostileFork Interesting, that sounds useful
 
9:39 PM
@RebolBot save greetings? "Should the inbox notifications to room visitors mean we should not greet them?" meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/175482/…
 
@GrahamChiu added key: greetings?
 
var sl4a = SL4AObject(“192.168.1.103”);
sl4a.open();
var result = sl4a.write({
    “params”: [”Hi, Android!”],
    “id”: 1,
    “method”: “makeToast”
});
sl4a.close();
 
@HostileFork That's not very JavaScripty since it does synchronous IO
Also, JSON needs to use " instead of “
Something more JavaScripty would be something like
 
@Adrian I thought if you had options: [private] and then didn't export anything, everything got exported
 
sl4a.open(function(conn,callback){
    this.write({YOUR JSON HERE},function(err,result){
         callback(result);
    });
});
Or, more newishly:
sl4a.open(function(conn,callback){
    this.write({YOUR JSON HERE},callback);
});
I can make it even smaller :) But you get the point
 
9:43 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum Good point...bearing it in mind, will think about it. But let's ignore my pasting out of Google Docs for a moment, but I just want to make a point about a specific contrast in terms of a form that Rebol offers...
result: write sl4a://192.168.1.103 {
    {"params": ["Hi, Android!"], "id":1, "method": "makeToast"}
}
 
Yeah, I totally get that, a uniform protocol-independent read/write IO would be awesome, that's not really Rebol specific though, it would be awesome in every language
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum If you want asynchronous I/O (on a "scheme" that supports it, like TCP) then you can't use the "one-off" form. It's for simple scripts, which many can be...or if the port represents a local resource. Ports can be eiither.
 
Oh, I think one of the things JS is missing is method coroutines (getting them in the next version, FF already supports them, chrome with a flag)
 
The port! object that you get back from open to track the connection can offer methods which let you set up callbacks, etc. It doesn't have to. It can basically have no extra subclassing and just do reads/writes/etc.
 
In theory, I'd like write to close the object when it is done with the callback without me having to explicitly say so, like a python with statement, or a C# using
That's a shortcoming of JS, C# lets you do that (with stuff like Task.continueWith ) JavaScript should do
I think that JS should let you use the fact it's not purely functional, and access a function's execution state. yield return is a good start but it's not there yet
 
9:49 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum I think Rebol bridges across these two things pretty well. But note that we're doing sl4a, actually, on a local device...it's android talking to itself. The asynchronousness is overhead.
 
Oh, I wasn't suggesting you'd do it asynchronous in Rebol, or that it's a better approach. I was saying how a similar concept would probably look in JavaScript, where asynchronous IO is much more important because of what the language is designed for
Synchronous code is better 90% of times when not coding re-actively in an event-based manner. Which is most of the use-cases of software anyway.
 
Anyway, ports look pretty promising, I'm meeting them for the first time. I sort of ignored them because I only worked in Rebol 3 and they are incomplete and rather undocumented. But now that I'm looking into it I think it's a pretty nifty approach to a certain kind of problem.
 
It sounds like a very nice approach to a common problem :)
 
SL4A could be a winner, if we push on it. Trying to implement a Rebol 2 / View style 80s-cash-register looking system where you get a video buffer and draw your own scrollbars on every platform you run on is not going to be a winner. :-) I've been arguing against Rebol 3 / View as a priority for a while...
 
@Adrian If you have pointers to what needs updating, just pass them along.
 
9:55 PM
With this, you just poke a JSON message from your app (in our case, a Rebol interpreter running through JNI) over to the SL4A service and ask it to do something. Basically you're asking a Java process to proxy your calls to arbitrary Android APIs which the JNI-Rebol hadn't been specifically bound to, but that the various arbitrary scripts might request.
Quite promising.
A good call by the fiendish Dr. @GrahamChiu! :-)
 
10:05 PM
@HostileFork err, is this a compliment?
You know I've done all the testing on a PC, and not using R3/droid ?
 
@GrahamChiu Yup. :-)
@GrahamChiu Well, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work on R3/droid...if it has a working tcp:// port, that is. :-/ Presumably it's going to get one.
 
@HostileFork Robert says "Update: We were working on a set of Android-specific support functions which will be used in the Android compositor code. Once this is finished we should have identical graphics on Android as on Windows.
Now we can add first version of "event-handler" for Android and design a more abstract interface for text / font handling, this is needed so we can render native/custom text on each platform easier.

The first version of the Android graphics compositor with a demo should be done and released next week."
@HostileFork I just didn't test it as it's too painful to use a touch screen to type
 
@GrahamChiu I don't think those apps will be well received by the marketplace. Perhaps individual Rebolers will like it.
Real app development is going to need to use more platform functionality than R3/View will provide.
 
@Adrian Brian has just nicely illustrated the "beef" I have with the module system. It is designed to please a default model that I think should rather not be catered for. All the while, it is also appears to be designed to try and please everyone, which has the potential downside of not really working for anyone.
This could of course be mainly a misunderstanding which will resolve once we gain more experience with the intended usage of the module system. The lack of user-level documentation along with documentation for potential "usage models" hardly helps.
@BrianH The module system was simply mostly unusable prior to the fixes past open sourcing.
Which also has us in the situation, that nobody except @BrianH, who wrote it, has ever used the current incarnation of the module system.
 
@HostileFork Well, I don't see a desktop GUI working on a touch screen interface
@earl and no one but Brian being able to write docs for it
 
10:18 PM
And no one except @BrianH knowing how it is intended to be used. Who has now claimed several times that it is "non-standard", and that the defaults are not for people who actually know how to work with modular systems, so we can't even rely on experience or intuition based on other module systems.
There is some design discussion on Carl's R3 frontline blog and in lots of Brian's postings on Carl's blogs and in AltME. The can be very enlightening, but requires careful assessment to see how it is still applicable in the current incarnation of the module system.
 
@RebolBot
if error? try [ do "1 / 0" ] [ print "we caught an error" ]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> if error? try [do "1 / 0"] [print "we caught an error"]
 
>> if error? try [ do "1 / 0" ][ print "we caught an error" ]
** Math error: attempt to divide by zero
** Where: / catch either -apply- do try
** Near: / 0
another untrappable error
Kaj was wondering if the problems I was having with http was related to this.
 
@earl I think that the reversing of the module convention is another issue, related to the one in my rant against the "Version 3 product"... where there's a unhealthy desire to believe Rebol 2 libraries are going to be interesting to anyone besides the few people who are probably not going to switch. It's the least of the portability concerns.
 
@HostileFork I don't think this has much to do with R2 libraries per se, but it most definitely is an attempt to preserve an R2 mindset.
Which leads to an awkward position: on the one side, one primary reason for R3 is claimed to be better support for "programming in the large", on the other side, there is absolute unwillingness to compromise even the least bit on the "convenience" that R2 offered for "programming in the small".
Investigating how practical the module system really is once module authors decide to switch to another default model is still on my to do list, though.
The "alternate default model" I have in mind is to always write named private modules ([type: module name: ... options: private]) per default, and explicitly import dependencies into your modules. But again, needs more investigation.
But I hope that usage could make most of my module system quarrels/misconceptions go away :)
 
10:49 PM
so modules are like private contexts we use in R2, and we export using set
 
@Adrian I'd currently prefer to have the revamped RebolBot incubated under another Github org, not rebolsource, as I'd rather keep rebolsource to strictly language-related things for now. But I also agree about the visibility benefits of having RebolBot as a good showcase closely co-located; will have to think about this a bit more.
@GrahamChiu If that was in reply to my "named private modules per default" thinking, then no: such modules and the words they export would only be visible to those explicitly importing the module.
 
from one context to another
 
@GrahamChiu Good catch. I think I've seen this recently as well, though. Must have a look if this is already in CC.
 
So, I need to setup another repo for the bot?
 
You or Adrian :)
 
10:53 PM
@earl been in CC for years apparently
 
@GrahamChiu Do you have a issue # handy?
 
@earl no
 
@GrahamChiu How do you know it's in CC, then :) ?
But it's a side-effect of #851, apparently.
 
@earl Kaj told me
 
(Because DO dispatches to the DO* intrinsic which guards the executed code with a CATCH/quit.)
I have a tentative fix for #851, wanna try it?
 
10:57 PM
@earl to see if it fixes the bot?
 
@GrahamChiu Yes.
 
@earl sure
 
Do you build yourself or would you prefer a pre-built binary?
 
prebuilt .. I don't have a linux build environment
 
What are you currently using? r3-master from rs?
 
10:59 PM
I think so
 
(High time I add a system/vendor field ...)
 
http://www.rebolsource.net/downloads/linux-x86/r3-gfc51038
 
Yep, that's r3-master.
 
perhaps you can add these test builds to another page .. or is rebolsource.net a one page website :) ?
 
@GrahamChiu Yep, still working on getting this done in an easy-to-maintain fashion :)
 
11:05 PM
@earl I just wrote the module system according to Carl's intentions. What I have been calling the standard model for R3 applications was designed by Carl. The strong-modularity stuff came from me, though Carl designed the header API to make it easier to use.
 
what did Carl write? Is it online?
 
@earl given that those options already exist and work, you can write code to use them now. For that matter, it would be easy to port a strong module system manager like Slim to use R3's modules without changing any existing code.
 
@BrianH Yes, still need to investigate if using those options per default makes things more practical (for me).
 
@GrahamChiu most of the standard model is right there in Carl's docs, minus a few things that turned out to be impossible for reasons that my SO article gets into (see the stuff on names). For the rest, we had discussions in AltME, in the world where R3 was developed. Every change to Carl's initial partly-broken model also has a CC ticket.
 
@GrahamChiu bolka.at/2013/rebol3/r3-linux-x86-g505397f -- does that work for you? (chmod +x it, of course). Based on this branch which tries to fix #851: github.com/earl/r3/tree/fix-851-try-catch-quit
 
11:14 PM
Even though I implemented the module system, and designed most of the subtle aspects of its behavior, Carl is the one who came up with the initial design, and he was the one reviewed and tested the code to make sure it was simple enough for him. The focus on extreme simplicity in use came from Carl. My docs show more complexity than the module system actually shows in practice, because I know how it works and have trouble writing simple docs.
@earl by "using those options per default" do you mean the stuff in the options block, or do you mean stuff like the type header, or do you mean triggering an error if you don't specify a module name? Because private modules mean that you have to specify the needs header or other forms of explicit import more. The current defaults minimize the contents of headers, and the need for them at all for scripts.
 
@BrianH I mean that for me, as a module author, to always write named private modules per default.
And yes, I'm aware of the additional imports. I see that as a big advantage, though.
 
@earl that is definitely a good approach for strong-modular code. Named private modules were my idea, a way to solve a design flaw of Carl's original module system: he made names optional but the module system couldn't handle them not being specified because there was no semantic model for them. So I came up with a model for them, based on CLOS/Ruby mixins.
@earl are you OK with this proposal? issue.cc/r3/1998
 
@BrianH Yes, I strongly agree with this. Thanks for the reminder.
 
@earl I have been waiting for feedback before making the fix. Please comment.
 
An absolute necessity :) Good that I didn't start aforementioned investigations yet.
 
11:28 PM
In Carl's original model, what I've been calling the "standard" application model was the only application model. The strong-modular stuff was my addition, to fill the holes in the old model. Unfortunately, names are a lot less optional than Carl's example code would imply.
 
@earl running it now
 
@GrahamChiu Cool.
 
perhaps I should reinstate prot-http as well
to stress it more
 
@BrianH I still think that for file-backed modules, names could be more optional than they currently are (or at least: than I currently perceive them to be). However, that's only a minor quibble.
@GrahamChiu Please do that :)
 
@earl I agree, mostly. Relative-path files could be looked up in the module-paths. However, there are advantages to unnamed modules, so I'd be sorry to see them go altogether when you are getting modules out of files.
If you want to see that happen, make a ticket and we can argue through the details and implications to find the best way to interpret that behavior. The module-paths lookup process could be improved. I also would like some help from @Ladislav with circular imports, since it turns out to be a big problem with static binding.
I'm reaching the end of what I can think through without talking to some people smarter than me.
 
11:40 PM
@BrianH Ok, I'll keep that in mind.
 
Also, the way that the checksum process is integrated into the system is good, but the checksums themselves might be a little weak depending on how much you distrust your sources. If we decided on something like Authenticode we would be able to integrate it into the system in the same way we currently do checksums, just like we could make encripted scripts similar to how we do compressed scripts.
 
@rebolbot do type? <tag "and a quoted string">
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> type? <tag "and a quoted string">
== tag!
 
@HostileFork the tag! bug on tryrebol is now fixed
 
@BrianH Just a quick refresher: do we currently have a way to do selective imports?
 
11:47 PM
@HostileFork what were the other bugs ...?
 
@RebolBot
print {"It was having trouble before," said {Fork}, "with the string example I like to show people early on."}
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> print {"It was having trouble before," said {Fork}, "with the string example I like to show people early on."}
It was having trouble before,
 said {Fork}, "with the string example I like to show people early on."
 
@earl private modules are imported selectively. If you give the module a name, you can even selectively import the same module in more than one place, rather than reloading and creating a new module.
 
posted on April 06, 2013 by abolka

[Comment] I strongly agree and consider this change an absolute necessity. Repeating what Brian already stated: importing a named private module expresses the explicit intent, that this module's exported words should take precedence over the default imports (from lib).

 
@BrianH No I mean: M exports A B C, N wants to import only A from M
 
11:54 PM
@earl oh right. If you call import explicitly it returns a reference to the module, and from that you can get at any of its non-hidden words. It might be possible to do something similar with private modules with a Needs header, but not with regular modules and it becomes quite confusing semantically. We are limited in what we can do with modules. Scripts are less limited because we can access their context from a task-global reference.
There are some things which aren't really easy to do when you take Rebol's binding model into account. Even ignoring the simplicity issue, some things will just be impossible to do. For example, the implicit destination of the import function is possible for scripts, but impossible for modules.
 
So I'd need to do something like resolve/extend/only self import 'm [a] (in N).
 

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