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12:04 AM
@Ladislav Rebol tutorial appears to have abandoned Rebol now
 
@GrahamChiu That would be too simple - why would he ask the question then?
 
He just found too many blocks that he couldn't solve by himself
 
@GrahamChiu ...and too many answers he did not care about ;-)
 
@Ladislav Well he had some character flaws but he asked a lot of Rebol questions and I don't think his flaws are unique
He helped us start a knowledge base on SO
 
@GrahamChiu Well, I do not mind about his character. But if somebody is ignoring useful answers and not being able to figure the solution on his own then it is unlikely he can succeed.
It may be even considered a miracle he did not encounter the failure sooner.
 
12:12 AM
@GrahamChiu I wonder if he is actually one of the known characters doing some work under the Rebol Tutorial alias.
 
If by "known characters" you mean anybody on AltMe, then I bet the answer is "no"
 
yes, that's what I meant
 
@Ladislav +1
 
shadwolf?
 
Highly unlikely
 
12:16 AM
@Adrian shadwolf is a professional programmer
 
he's said that?
and tutorial is not?
 
that's his job
 
haven't really paid attention to RT
just remember the frequency of his postings some time back
 
So, is someone volunteering to write a date module?
Hi @GreggIrwin ... haven't seen you here before. See our FAQ to get you past the common hurdles
 
With the recent AltMe chat, I thought I'd see if my SO login still worked. :-)
 
12:24 AM
and you have enough points!
@pekr complained about the points thing .. but I see he has two accounts!
A good thing is to change your avatar from the default which you can do on your home page
The date stuff came from a new user here who was asking why the refinements didn't work as expected on 'now
Good to have fresh eyes on this stuff ... to encourage discussion on designs decisions made over a decade ago
 
Yes, quite a bit of chat on AltME linked to Ladislav's CureCode ticket.
 
shame the discussion is now split over 3 sites
 
Wider support for load and format options is a good goal, but may be hard to build consensus on priorities. Sadly, I can't commit to heading up a module for it right now.
 
And I note [Core] is not a web-public group
 
@GrahamChiu As @BrianH says, more incentive to hone the real institutional knowledge so the babble can just go away. Welcome @GreggIrwin !
 
12:32 AM
I have those iso8601 functions already as I needed to deal with Amazon APIs
Maybe someone can make a list of the common date formats we don't support and should in a date module
 
"Common" is the hard part. Here are the standards I have in my formatter.
            ; tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3339
            ; w3.org/TR/NOTE-datetime.html
            Atom        [format-date-time value "yyyy-mm-dd\Thhh:mm:ssszz:zz"]
            W3C         [format-date-time value "yyyy-mm-dd\Thhh:mm:ssszz:zz"]

            ; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601
            ISO8601 [ ; ISO8601 without separators
                either none? value/time [
                    format-date-time value "yyyymmdd"
                ][
                    format-date-time value join "yyyymmdd\Thhhmmss" either 0:00 = value/zone ["\Z"] ["zzzz"]
Some keys are aliases.
 
My use was for APIs, and HL7 datetimes
http-cookie is Carl's internet time
 
>> to-idate now
== "Sun, 24 Feb 2013 16:40:37 -0800"
>> parse-header-date "Sun, 24 Feb 2013 16:40:37 -0800"
== 24-Feb-2013/16:40:37-8:00
Don't know if the above is what you are looking for.
 
The only difference in mine, I think, is spelling out the complete weekday name. parse-header-date loads it fine, because it skips that part.
It looks like parse-header-date defaults to now if it can't parse the date, though.
And loading an idate can be a simple change.

load-idate: func [date [string!]] [
    to date! replace date "T" "/"
]
I'm happy to help if I can. I have a lot of date-related funcs, but most are pretty simple. It's a matter of defining what the date module should do.
 
1:23 AM
@GreggIrwin Better call that load-rfc3339 :)
(And: welcome @GreggIrwin, good to see you here :)
 
1:50 AM
@earl do try to avoid the RFC or ISO numbers in the function names. If you must mention them at all, put them in the doc strings, or better yet the external docs as links.
 
@BrianH Just pointing out that R2's to-idate does not do RFC3339/ISO8601 dates, but rather RFC822-style dates.
 
2:08 AM
@BrianH if you use to-iso-date presumably we can use a refinement to specify which RFC/ISO we require ...
 
2:35 AM
@GrahamChiu From an iso-date — to is easy!
 
2:56 AM
So... as long as Rebol is on a mission to correcting the mistakes of history, to the point of reversing the polarity of shift from R2... could we correct the terms "big-endian" and "little-endian" and reverse them? Or at least use the terms "big-lastian" and "little-lastian"?
 
We can only correct our own mistakes. The mistakes of others we can only hope to work around or ignore.
 
Is there an idiom for either condition [somefunc expression] [expression] better than saving in a local or using do compose?
Like foo :somefunc expression
 
Not the latter. Save in a local. Don't do do compose, it has too much overhead.
Code generation can be fun, but only use it when it's the best approach.
do if condition [:some-func] expression
 
3:14 AM
Is that slow?
 
 do [ somefunc ] pick condition expression
 
Not noticeably slower than either, but Graham's might be faster. Time and test.
 
oops ..
 
@GrahamChiu wait, that won't work. do 'add doesn't redo.
 
do pick [ somefunc ] condition expression
 
3:18 AM
Still won't work. The somefunc is a name that might refer to a function, not a function value. No redo.
do get pick [ somefunc ] condition expression
And that only works if condition results in a logic! value, rather than a truthy value. Otherwise...
 
getting longer and longer!
 
do get pick [ somefunc ] true? condition expression
At which point the if method starts looking better.
 
Is this is why pick defaults that true is the first thing? So you can leave out the second and get a none from false? :-/ I was wondering about that. Hmmm.
 
@HostileFork pick of a logic offset was meant to replace either or if/else. That's its main use, and its order.
I guess pick [stuff] not condition replaces unless.
 
any reason why pick shouldn't use truthy values?
 
3:34 AM
1 is truthy. So is 2.
 
in addition to integers
hmm
forget it
 
The trick to all this is that if the condition is false(y) there are two results, and if the condition is true(thy) then one value is returned. So, if that distinction matters, make sure you only pay attention to the last value. One trick is to put the sequence in a paren - parens only return their last results. So, if you're doing this trick in a reduce, put the code in a paren.
 
in this case, somefunc might be operating on expression
 
That was the request, to make that happen.
 
there should be a neater way of factoring out expression
 
3:43 AM
Agreed. And last week I was looking for the opposite, doing an expression but only applying a set of arguments if the expression is a function, but just passing through otherwise. It's useful for security screening.
 
4:00 AM
So I've realized one reason that I really hate the existence of the to-string, to-binary, to-integer family is that now I keep messing up and typing to-string! sometimes. Another strike against them!
A superior alternative exists which teaches a more orthognal interface from the get-go (I didn't know TO existed as its own function until I found out about it, helps discoverability)...saves on the hyphenated names for less foundational things so you can use hyphenated names to call out higher-order instead of lower order functionality... (most built ins don't have hyphens)... and it's even faster for the micro-optimization fans, one fewer abstraction...
There's every reason to lose them except one. A shift to an exclamation point. I can hit the giant space bar faster than a hyphen, so it's a speed up and a slow down, so there's some balance.
I call it worth it.
 
too many !!!! looks like shouting !!!!
 
BrianH said also it gives you a pre-existing function wrapper if you want to pass it around, but I don't do that with this any more than anything else. If I want func [x] [to integer! x] I could make it, if and when it comes up. There are a lot of other things that would come up first...
I'm probably going to want something more complicated than just that anyhow.
 
How many to- functions are we talking about?
is this a r3/backwards candidate?
I'm just thinking of all the pain new users will have since almost all the code out there is for R2
Since R2 has stagnated for years, the benefit is that almost all scripts still run :)
 
4:16 AM
I think that advising users who are working from old information and telling them to use R3/backwards if they aren't using the latest and greatest documentation is going to be the plan. We can go through StackOverflow and fix all the code here, which is good. And another reason why I say it's important to depend on "living" resources.
 
247 Rebol tagged questions
 
There is not very much "funct" or "function" code examples on the web for people learning from, but breaking func would indeed be too much. That one's going to stick.
Today... but if it were used more actively, and people with other forums voluntarily turned theirs into clones of the content (a Rebol-Powered StackOverflow scraper, read-only but ready to turn read-write if it had to...) we wouldn't have to worry much and could just use the resource for what it is.
R3/Backward is going to need a fair number of things anyway. Cleaning up something minor like this is the least of its worries.
 
Let's have a r3/backwards ready before we start removing stuff
 
We just have to make it easy to tell people "oh, you're using that tutorial? Yeah you need the 'R2 compatibility switch'... it may help you get through that code. Each thing in R3/Backward is documented with the transformation to the appropriate R3 code...and you can put it in an alert mode where instead of running it tells you how to transform the call."
I've been trying to get it. I want that exact feature: hits a call and tells you how to transform it to the modern code. There's no reason why you couldn't go through a tutorial and have it use to-string and tell you the reasoning why it was removed and to just say to string! instead.
Or run in a compatibility mode, if you insist for some reason...porting training wheels like what I'm doing with Red.
 
I suspect I use to-this in my protocols
 
4:28 AM
There's less you can do with things like shift, where you're either in compatibility mode or it's going to just break. You could get a warning, I guess. "Warning, are you sure you know what you're doing here? If you are, temporarily markup this particular shift call to say 'got this one' somehow, and then when all the shifts are covered you can remove the markup."
R3/Backward could have a shift-r3 which had r3 semantics and when you were finally done catching all the callsites and ditch R3/Backwards it would then start telling you to change it back to shift as it caught calls.
Anyway, yes, I think it's going to be necessary and the sooner it is made and has even a few demonstrations of these features the sooner we can think about how to manage the education legacy and porting efforts.
 
well, I don't know how many R2 installation scripts there are out there ...
which is the other issue .. people who know nothing of the language using scripts
 
Speaking of changes... so Red is using double carets with parens for escaping to codepoints, instead of single carets. I'm not... sure why. It still uses single carets for things like tabs and line feeds. :-/ @DocKimbel, what's the motivation?
And speaking of community efforts, I'd like to see the "calling ships to port". We're up against a giant spam wave of some kind of "Rebol perfect diet". And I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but it's a little bit weird when the only english you find on pages of entirely other Japanese stuff is REBOL PERFECT DIET. It's slamming Rebol's visibility in SEO and Twitter won't take down the obvious problem, which is even more annoying.
So getting a modern list of the people with real Rebol websites, and figuring out their stakes and interest, is important too.
 
4:50 AM
I don't see those pages unless I search on rebol perfect diet
 
I do searches with filter on recent activity. Like "show me rebol stuff from the last month" vs. all time. Or go through blogsearch.google.com or a twitter search. Seems to be a modern flurry of response that has drowned out any open source news or current tweets in search.
Finding rebol.com doesn't help me much. I know it's been there a long time. But it's not doing anything.
 
maybe we need a few pages .. rebol diet poisonous
but sounds like a trademark issue Carl should be addressing
 
We needed reboltutorial, he knew SEO.
So I met the guy who did the penetration analysis of the Sony Rootkit, found a DNS race condition bug...kind of famous. We were discussing spam and I said "it's not about selling anything to anyone, male enhancement pills or whatever... it's traffic shaping...exploits and steganography. people who don't want to identify themselves closing a communication loop..."
 
I think Nick knows who reboltutorial is ...
 
He looked at me like "uhhhm. yeah, only idiots think it's advertising. but they might take your credit card info if you sent it to them also." Told me about how he was working with a current problem that was where old known attacks were being used, seemingly naive but then the security systems would shut themselves down...without realizing that they were shutting down against some part of themselves because the origin had been spoofed.
So anyway, I don't know what it means but I do know that it hurts discoverability either way. Me flagging hasn't been enough to get those accounts on Twitter killed and it used to be that Twitter was pretty good about spam response, but who knows maybe my spam voting credibility is attacked somehow and my votes don't count anymore.
Seeing this StackOverflow moderation interface reminds me that it's a game... a system with flags and counterflags and you hope sanity prevails when someone with a brain steps in.
 
5:08 AM
@GrahamChiu Why do you think so?
 
@Adrian I think he mentioned it once
 
The current registrar for reboltutorial.com is an anonymous registrar in Panama, with the name "Registrar: Internet.bs Corp." Sounds about right. Like the ID-10T error. :-)
 
@HostileFork are you sure it's spam?
 
Anyway, the faster we finish Rebol and Red, the faster the AI singularity and we get our own private cryptographic worlds in which inane idiocy like the domain name cartels cease to influence our lives. Or we get wiped out by terminator robots. I don't care, because anything is better than the strip-mall-heat-death-of-the-universe.
@Adrian Hmmm, let me think about that for a second.
 
you won't have much longer to wait .. Higgs Boson field is unstable ...
 
5:13 AM
 
And we won't even see it coming as the vacuum instability will be travelling at C++
 
Well...it's either spam or Hot Japanese girls with exposed cleavage in bikinis, cute dogs, and a penchant for garbled numeric Markov-Chain handles really want to come talk with us about programming...and they're missing a reasonable channel in which to do it due to communication disruption as per "Moon".
I won't rule it out, but knowing a little about programming, women, and the ability of dogs to type...I'm gonna say spam. Perhaps automated based on seeing an old keyword with high rank and low traffic. It could be nothing personal, just "you were there and your SEO was unused".
 
You're saying you got no response on killing the accounts? Hate it when a company is so big you can't reach anyone - like Google, for example.
maybe if we all made requests
 
Well, I'm just telling you I've tried and nothing's happened. I used to know someone at Twitter I could have called but I'm a hermit and don't keep social ties. The last time I talked to a Google employee about support he was like "yeah. I know. It sucks. I can't get support either."
"If the service is free, you're not the customer...you're the product."
 
5:28 AM
someone's lucid dream ...
@HostileFork you're a pretty chatty hermit :)
 
5:47 AM
After you filter out that spam there really hasn't been a lot of Rebol tweeting since it went OS.
 
@HostileFork Stack Overflow?
 
@rgchris If it has an API and is run by programmers for programmers you might have a chance, as with reading your website or mine. :-)
 
Ok, what's up here ... ? Who upset the chick ? twitter.com/eeveeta/status/305707750665629696
 
@GrahamChiu Precise conversation for context. I like transcripts.
My friend who is a game developer used to have his name in the credits of games and kids would find him and call him and ask him for help playing them. He got an unlisted number after that. :-P
 
6:04 AM
Eh? She/he called you on the analogue phone?
 
@GrahamChiu I assure you, they were digital even when most people still thought they were analogue. Hard lines are called such because they're difficult to come by. :-P
 
@HostileFork Yeah ... I know. All telcos are IP based these days
I'm not even sure how one refers to the phone based on copper and those based on adsl copper!
 
@GrahamChiu Louis C.K. has a great rant about how everything is amazing and nobody's happy in which he complains about how you used to hate it when your friends had a lot of zeroes in their number because you'd have to wait for the dial to go around...
 
6:21 AM
While we're talking about dates .. I wonder if there is a way we can select the date window
>> 1/1/63
== 1-Jan-2063

>> 1/1/64
== 1-Jan-1964
 
@GrahamChiu Oh no. That is a date format I suggest NOT supporting. I got to see some parts of the Long Now Clock at a Maker Fair or somesuch when I was in the Bay Area, and I liked the forward-lookingness.
It's very Rebolish.
 
I parse out dates from OCR'd documents .. I need to support all common date formats
 
@GrahamChiu Can't your parse be the source of the context and make the properly formed date without perpetuating the notational problem? :-(
 
I'm not expect a practical issue for another 1000 years
but correspondence typically uses 2 digit years
Maybe it's a USA thing . my documents use 4 digit years
 
Speaking of forward-lookingness, my semiotic character encoding is seeming all the more prescient in light of doing unicode tests and getting weird meaningless numbers in a box. I can't even see a coarse bitmap of what it might be. I just have to trust some table existing somewhere else blindly, no way to double check.
 
6:41 AM
no internal checksum?
 
@GrahamChiu That's up to the protocol layer.
The checksum is the design itself.
@GrahamChiu Why would someone use insert tail new value in a case like this? Something wrong with append? :-/
 
usually because append vs insert - mezz vs native
 
Sigh.
 
very common though ...
R3 both are native
I always though it was a sacrifice to readability
 
6:58 AM
Looks like one to me... ah well, I better call it a night for now and come back to this in the morning. TTYL.
Almost to the WebOS task :-)
 
Trust me almost anything is more fun than this. :-/ But it's important, if Red is on Rebol2 it creates incidental reasons for bootstrap... lots of good reasons to want to throw away a Rebol2 dependency that we can do nothing about which do not relate to the needs of any users. Just the need to get rid of something you can't work with and isn't being worked on.
Cut that out it buys some time for reasoned discussion of common goals and design.
 
hey? did you do a

sleep 5

or something?
 
7:17 AM
@GrahamChiu Just the pre-bed music videos. Off now...
 
Pet Clark still around?
Interesting ... from my childhood
 
 
1 hour later…
8:27 AM
Well I did pull the recent head, but it still fails. (I will just use a Linux VM then)
Have you heard of [GYP](http://code.google.com/p/gyp/). It is used in node.js for example, works pretty well, it can create makefiles and Visual Studio Projects
@HostileFork, I see the lex generated scanner, but I can't see the .lex source file the .c file is generated from.
 
@SebastianGodelet Don't use the most recent head for MSVC, use the commit right before that (5486998).
@SebastianGodelet Alternatively, I have an experimental CMake-based build which can generate VS projects: github.com/earl/r3/tree/wip-cmake (Help on how to use that will have to wait until later, though, gotta leave now :)
@SebastianGodelet l-scan.c is not generated, it is hand-written.
 
@SebastianGodelet, hang on - you were having a problem with VS no?
Andreas (@earl), he can use that fix you gave me, no?
include the following right after the last #include in f-math.c
#include <float.h>
int signbit(double x) {
    return (x == 0) ? _fpclass(x) & _FPCLASS_NZ : x < 0;
}
I think with this addition, I was able to compile from HEAD
Be aware, though, that with that little modification you won't be able to compile under mingw, in case you want to try that.
Anyhow, this should be resolved once the pull requests are merged in according to @earl
 
8:46 AM
@Adrian Thanks! That did the trick :)
 
np
 
@earl Well l-scan.c Looks like it originally was generated by lex but than modified, is that correct?
 
Not sure the snippet should be starred. It's just a temporary fix.
 
@Adrian, The chat says: "It is too late to undo this operation", sorry for that
I thought it's just staring for myself...
 
9:02 AM
It's no big deal, Sebastian.
 
Looks like room owners can remove stars :)
 
I'm thinking of adding a bot in here to execute Rebol code. Good idea you think?
 
Yes, good idea.
 
we have rebol feeds ..
 
?
 
9:08 AM
Rebol scripts produce some of the feeds here from curecode, and SO
 
yes
and? :-)
I'm slow...
 
what would your bot add?
 
Was talking about people being to call the bot with a Rebol script and see an ouput
just small one liner kind of stuff
Pretty typical thing to have in chats.
 
so the bot answers questions to get 20 points first :)
 
You have a special prefix that indicates a bot command
heh
I'm not sure he'll pull it off.
 
9:12 AM
so the bot reads a feed, parses to see the command, logs in and posts?
that would be interesting ...
 
hello, I've a question about the source code. I see you a are using tabs "\t" for the source files. Is the formatting adjusted to tab width of 4 or 8?
 
looks like 4, @SebastianGodelet
 
4
 
9:29 AM
@GrahamChiu The one bot I was looking at would run under the user that's running it.
it's JS that you invoke as a bookmarklet
 
 
1 hour later…
10:36 AM
@SebastianGodelet I don't think it was generated, no. But we'd have to ask Carl (the original author) for the ultimate truth :)
 
 
1 hour later…
11:54 AM
Is that you iiqux pretending to be user208131?
Re Red Issue #412. The error message seems a little misleading to me (at least for compiling code).
Red []

f: func [
    /local x
][
    [x]
]
do f
The current message is *** Error: undefined context for word 'x
but the compiler clearly knows the context, it is the function f. The word is defined in the /local section of the function spec but I guess the logical value is unset!.
Wouldn't a message to indicate that the definition of x in function f is incomplete be more appropriate.
 
@DominicKexel @Nezam I'm going to get yelled at for not sleeping very long, but I have to say hi and "hey we've got some Rebol for sale, let us sell you it." :-P
First time's free. And hey @KK.!
 
KK.
@DominicKexel @Nezam @HostileFork @PeterWAWood Hello.
 
Hello KK
 
KK.
@HostileFork From 95 to 112 starred posts!
@PeterWAWood I feel great talking to you. Hope work on Red is going great :-)
 
@DominicKexel is very prolific, and a fellow "you get little weird flag notifications in chat" moderator as well to triage. :-) Major tags: c#, python, vb.net...
 
12:04 PM
@KK. @HostileFork @PeterWAWood @pekr Hi.
Never heard of Rebol... :-)
 
KK.
@DominicKexel Now you have :-)
 
Nenad is making great progress with Red. I think that he is only a couple of, albeit large, features away from being able to start on the Red-hosted version of Red/System.
 
@DominicKexel There's a reason for that. Several. But we're hoping those reasons have been lifted. Released in 1998, brainchild of one of the main AmigaOS developers. Held in relative secrecy and obscurity and closed-source-propreitary weirdness way past the point it should have been.
 
KK.
@DominicKexel It is a cool language that lets you do many things in a very fast manner.
 
Open sourced on 12-Dec-2012, under Apache 2.0, and hence many people who'd thrown up their hands and walked away are coming back and getting interested again.
 
12:06 PM
Since I recently discovered Clojure/LISP I think I could like Rebol :-)
 
@DominicKexel How much Clojure/LISP do you know? Just beginning, or you more or less "get it"?
 
@DominicKexel Without a doubt. The question is will you like Clojure/LISP afterwards?
2
 
@HostileFork I think I "get it" (but still a LISP-beginner) :-)
 
@DominicKexel Okay well one thing to know first of all is that after much delay Rebol 3 was open sourced, incomplete. The previous version Rebol 2 will not be open sourced and it is more stable. The TextMate guy did this same thing you might know about that.
Rebol 3 is much improved under the hood, but in ways beginners might not appreciate, and many components are currently missing. Of course being open source is a big improvement and in my opinion a necessity for a programming language in this day and age. But it can be frustrating to teach under this situation because of the two versions being different.
 
I think that REBOL is much easier to get than LISP. It's a friendly language which appears very simple on the surface but is very deep underneath. So it is easy to become productive with REBOL and still have much to learn.
 
12:14 PM
To make matters a bit more complicated there is a prolific effort to build a compiled (vs. interpreted) full-stack Rebol variation called Red. It's not so much a competing project, we're all friends here, but it is ambitious and seeks to eclipse Rebol. But it is new and unusual and very interesting in its implementation strategy. So we also have to talk about Red if we are being forward thinking.
@DominicKexel So with all that out of the way, here's where you can download your alpha Rebol 3 interpreter. Zero install, half a megabyte, and it will blow your mind. rebolsource.net
And that's one of the interesting things about the design philosophy of the tool. Careful management of dependencies, pure ANSI-C, it's a very small artifact.
But a small program that does nothing is not so impressive. So it's rather when you see what it can do in that little package that you go "whoa".
@DominicKexel Rebol is LISP-evolved and seeking a greater degree of literacy, and making each decision "count". This comes down to things I like to point out to new people like how if you want to make a string you can either write a "quoted string" or a {braced string}. (As opposed to the maddening alternative of a 'single quoted string' which I hardly see the point in.)
And this is a small thing, but Rebol is a sum of small careful decisions...like you can write: print {"It's better to have asymmetric string delimiters," said {Fork}, "because as long as you have matched pairs you don't have to escape anything."}
@DominicKexel Rebol is like having the engine and code-as-data philosophy behind LISP but with a decade and a half of refinement of the design so your programs aren't ugly as sin. Here's our Stackoverflow Answers tagged Rebol RSS feeder
You get lots of symbolic types out of the box... URLs can just be typed in with no escaping or putting them in strings, tag types aren't confused with less-than-or-greater-than comparisons. The decision to put spaces between tokens means you don't have problems in your CSS with it thinking background-color is the same as background - color
All of this you can slice and dice with LISP-like metaprogramming, and the wide spectrum of token types (e.g. date! = type? 12-Dec-2012 or url! = type? http://hostilefork.com) empowers you cleverly imagine ways to use "code-as-data" to create what we call dialects.
On an unrelated note, does anyone know what intrinsically makes that Win32 executable the biggest one? That one wasn't built with MSVC, @earl ... MinGW build? Perhaps the MSVC one is smaller. Still, they're all small. :-)
 
12:45 PM
@HostileFork Thanks for all that information. I'm already playing a little bit with the rebol shell.
 
@DominicKexel So know a few things for starters... help on any function, such as help print will get you some info about it. (help is a function itself too, but it is defined to take its first argument in a "quoted" manner, so it doesn't try to call print, hence no complaint about the missing argument of what to print or an attempt to take the result of that call and send it to help!)
 
If you like github.com/angerangel/r3bazaar fork it! :-)
 
Knowing when something is in a "quoted" or "evaluated" context is a big deal in Rebol, as with Lisp. Also, as you explore and bump around and see confusing things, two big other helpers are probe and type?. So you can say things like type? rebol@example.com and get an answer. And there's a distinction between something like probe [a + b] and print [a + b].
Heya @MaxV, welcome! My own leaning is to try and un-fork things, my handle is a joke :-)
 
> to email! reduce [reverse "nairb" "@" (parse http://hostilefork.com [thru "//" copy
domain to ["/" | end]] domain)]
** Script Error: Invalid argument: / | end
** Where: halt-view
** Near: parse http://hostilefork.com [thru "//" copy domain to ["/" | end]] domain
>>
may you double check your obfuscated email adress?
 
@MaxV If you don't know about it, StackOverflow will strip the http off of URLs by default if you don't escape your code in backquotes. (Or post a multi-line message with Shift-enter and then click the orange "fixed font" button to the right). Which creates more non-functioning code. I hate it when markup does things like that. :-/
 
12:52 PM
@MaxV You need R3 PARSE for to [] rule.
 
We keep trying to demonstrate that URLs are first class types and then the markup gets the best of us. :-/
 
I hate Rebol 3 console! I can't paste multi line scripts!!!
 
I think I should write a roguelike in rebol...
 
Easy solution - write a new one ;)
@DominicKexel great idea! Can I be a betatester? :)
 
Mayyou send me some hint? Where to start for? Have you the rebol 2 console sources?
 
12:56 PM
@rebolek Sure. Expect the first beta release in 2015 :-)
 
@MaxV You're 100% right that it's time to take responsibility for integrations and such into our own hands, and that GitHub permits this pleasantly, but I think that given limited resources it's best to work out differences and converge development. There's a fair amount of convergence already, we've just maybe not been too loud about it. :-)
@MaxV What platform interests you most? The implementation of console services outside of standard input and standard output will be different. This is one of the problems.
@MaxV Also, have you seen repl.it ? Once we built it to a JavaScript virtual machine there will be opportunity to just write in a scratchpad and eval. It will be a better model. Just give us a second. :-) One can't always cling to the past just because of what you had and were used to... there may be better ways...
Rogue clones aside :-) I hardly think that VT-100 and Curses are the future of programming!
So it may not be the best investment of resources. Right now I'm working on the Red port to R3.
 
@HostilFork Why don't you try to public some convergence. I don't care to be the R3Bazaar administrator, I just want show that Rebol 3 is moving. When I go to rebol/r3 and I see no changes in the last 3 months, I cry :'(
 
@DominicKexel Getting to the spirit of what Rebol's machinery is about is different for everybody, but @rgchris likes to point out Rebol in Ten Steps
@MaxV Because making announcements prematurely before you've kind of spoken to everyone can lead to people on the web finding websites making conflicting announcements and making them cry and being confused to. :-) We've had developments, pull requests, and progress it's just an issue of integrating them and hopefully presenting a clear path to new contributors.
@MaxV I think it's good to be tactical and to bring in new savvy developers, and if the politics in a project don't look right then it (a) wastes their time figuring it out and (b) makes a bad impression. Most of us are on the same page and so that is good, I don't anticipate problems. I don't think you will have to cry much longer. :-)
 
currency designators of the money!-type don't seem to work for me :-(
 
Well, my contacts are public (maxint@tiscali.it); when you are ready, contact me and I'll support you. At the moment I'm merging all pull requests in Rebol 3Bazaar, so you may use it to develop further improvements.
 
1:08 PM
@DominicKexel There is a lot of change in Rebol 3, and the rebol.com site isn't updated often. An example of an update is that money! used to be a float under the hood, now it's real BCD arithmetic. So you find it's two steps forward and one step back most of the time...
@MaxV I think merging all pull requests might be the opposite extreme of Carl's merging none... we're kind of looking for an in-between. :-)
 
Eh eh, if you find some errors in some merge, please let me know. I'm at your service.
 
@MaxV :-) Well I think we'll have some things for you, probably even better terminal support, but the platform does matter...everyone does this differently. And the thing is that Rebol doesn't want to pull in big cross-platform libraries; defeats the purpose. So things like Curses are not ideal.
@MaxV But I've been working on, for instance, updating the OpenSSL API interface so that you can either use the hand-extracted minimalist subset of ANSI C -or- build a version that links up to the latest sudo apt-get openssl-devel multi-megabyte monstrosity provided by your package manager. I think this is what the real "Rebol Bazaar" will be, freedom of choice in builds. But we don't want a bazaar for the core...
@MaxV you still haven't answered my question, since multi-line pastes working is so important, what is the platform it is so important for you in? All of them or a particular one?
 
@DominicKexel They are not implemented in REBOL 3
 
@PeterWAWood :-(
 
@DominicKexel Though there's lots of powerful dialects to talk about, parse is a nice one and I think it's something that can be understood fairly quickly by people who suffer through misery like RegEx. And it's also built in, optimized in the C core for performance and comes in every interpreter build. You might find this section of the transcript to be illuminating
 
1:24 PM
@DominicKexel I'm not sure if it was dropped as it wasn't seen to add value or was just an omission - see curecode.org/rebol3/ticket.rsp?id=576&cursor=33
 
In other news, @KK. how's the new job?
 
KK.
@HostileFork I will be joining the new job in a few months, I'm not really sure when. :-)
Till then it is games and tv and other time wasting activies
 
More time for Rebol then! :-) I was wondering how your project ideas were coming. I am again thinking that getting some better "apples to apples" comparisons (no pun intended) with some existing thing would be ideal.
That's why I suggested contrasting Rebol approach with messes like 8 regex you should know and really honing and covering all 8, thoroughly, with vetted expert feedback would be good blog-promotional-stuff.
Rebol is half a megabyte, doesn't need to be installed or anything...I think too often it is sold as programming-grand-theory-of-everything. Which maybe it is or isn't, but if you act like it is then people go "well show me a billion-dollar company that uses it" and I think that's the wrong tactic. (For now, until we have our billion-dollar companies lined up. :-P)
Unix guys use a whole big toolbox of things every day, if something is useful they'll use another.
 
KK.
@HostileFork I was thinking about solving project euler problems and blogging about it.
But your idea is good too.
I was out for the last 2-3 days, and I too was thinking of blogging.
So in that respect you are right.
 
1:40 PM
@KK. That could be a good learning experience but I think part of the problem is that project Euler problems are often more suited to the DO dialect, and it has historically been hard for people to understand why programming in the style of DO is all that important. They don't realize that it's just Rebol the medium "dressed up" to look like familiar... and wind up arguing the details.
 
KK.
Another thing about a blog is that no matter how small it is, it can contribute to more google search results.
 
If they see some more domain-specific dialects first, THEN come to the generalized DO dialect... they will realize why it is the way it is and go "hey, now I see... it's not weird, it's a uniform substrate that extends... and I can extend it too..."
 
KK.
@HostileFork Gotta go. I'll be back in a few hours.
 
@PeterWAWood I hoped to find something like F#'s Units of Measure built in.
 
@DominicKexel The module system in Rebol 3 is coming along to properly allow dialects to get sucked in the way most other languages do. In the meantime, you can include a script by using do http://foo.com/script.r so it has some of the quick 'n' dirty library inclusion properties of JavaScript in the browser (except not hideous), and if you need a measuring library you can get one quickly if you're on the cloud...
I've got to run, but nice to talk to you. Ask questions here all you want or on the main site too, you know the protocols for when it's a "proper SO Q&A question" of course. :-) Parting moment of Zen: on the qualities of Rebol vs other languages as seen through the lens of LEGO Alligators...
 
KK.
1:53 PM
@HostileFork I am back.
 
@KK. Just as I'm running! Well you can check out the LEGO alligators and I'll be online later...
 
KK.
@HostileFork Ok. Talk to you later :-)
 
So, I finally have some work to do :-) See you later, bye.
 
KK.
@DominicKexel Bye. Hope to talk to you soon. :-)
 
2:15 PM
Morning!
 
KK.
@SomeKittens Hello.
 
If anyone here has a HN account, I'd appreciate upvotes: news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5279038
 
2:56 PM
Is the Linux 64-bit binary good enough to use?
"Hello World!" in REBOL is boring. Instead, write your own language to Hello World in:
parse "ab" "a" (print "Hello ") "b" (print "world!")
 
@SomeKittens Better with '(prin "Hello ")
 
How does that work?
 
@SomeKittens prin - no newline.
 
Ah, I was wondering how to do that, thanks!
 
A bit more fun:
>> parse "ab" [any ["b" (print "world!") | "a" (prin "hello ")]]
hello world!
 
3:15 PM
Back! Also, I just saw an instance of something I hadn't even used before, that you can put numbers after each other to get ranges in the dialect. parse "aaabbc" [some [1 3 ["a" | "b" | "c"]]] returns true. Interesting. It has no meaning for more than two digits in a row though. :-)
 
3:58 PM
Is there any real reason why we can't just go ahead and allow people to use the return spec, for documentation purposes, even before the implementation has mechanics for checking it? foo: func [return: [integer!]] [5] generates an error...but does it really need to?
 
4:09 PM
@SomeKittens If at all possible, use the 32-bit binaries.
 
4:20 PM
@HostileFork The difference in size is most likely mainly due to the significantly differing GCC versions.
 
5:22 PM
So I can be a bit timid about just kind of accepting that things will "just work out" if I don't do proper conversions. But if I have rejoin [#{FFFF} foo {some-string}] am I supposed to just have general faith that everything will be converted to a binary?
 
yo
 
There's no general invariant saying rejoin returns the type of its first element. Look at rejoin [1 2] making "12" for instance. Is there any way that I could start a join with a binary and then wind up throwing something into the mix and NOT getting a binary out? Where's the invariant?
Yo @graph. Whatcha working on?
 
just came home from work
 
I'm hopefully closing in on finishing the Red port to R3, cleaning up the pull request. Do you have a GitHub account and/or use Git?
 
how would I try out Rebol, if I just want to have a look, i.e. just do some Hello World?
 
5:25 PM
@HostileFork If the first element is already a series!, the result will be of the same series-type. Otherwise, the result will be a string! (the first element is FORMed and the remaining APPENDed).
@graph Download a Rebol interpreter for your platform from rebolsource.net. Then start it up, and you will be presented with a console. Enter print "hello, world!" and off you go :)
 
aight
 
@earl The amount of implicit conversions makes me tense because so many of the implicit conversions are weird. :-/ At least the R2 to binary! 10 got a bit better with R3, but I feel like a lot of this is going to seem mysterious and random.
I mean to say that when the conversions are weird, and then they are happening implicitly, it creates gibberish that's indecipherable
@graph You might to follow along with some of my notes from one of the previous chats but feel free to ask new questions. (I introduce things like probe and help and type)
 
lemme just get some tea and change into some comfortable clothes
 
Once you get basic comfort there's various resources on the web to get more information out of but many are for R2, not R3, so there will be differences.
 
then ... a new start
what would you describe as the greatest benefit you get from learning Rebol?
 
5:36 PM
@graph Me personally or programmers from other languages in general? It's different for me because of my background so my answer will be "weird".
 
@graph I don't know about benefits, but other languages start to seem very clunky and slow to work with. I guess you can say you work very fast in REBOL.
 
uh I meant it as "say something to get me pumped about this" lol
 
as an example, I have prototyped many things in a few hours in REBOL that takes weeks to build in other systems
 
Historically I have not liked interpreted languages one bit. I don't like programming in text editors, either. It feels like an incredibly sloppy engineering methodology... like if you were designing a Boeing 777 on computer in Microsoft Paint and going "Wow, it's so much better on a computer!"
 
hm I guess I have to relie on my intrinsic motivation then lol
 
5:42 PM
Rebol is the first interpreted language I actually like for some reasons. I compare it to the idea of how someone who likes to use high-end CAD programs with advanced model checking might be horrified to work with paint and an easel...because paint is so messy and hard to clean up, and it gets everywhere and the tubes run out...
That person would look at the mess and go an hour ago I decided to put the sun in the sky, but now I want it on the horizon, but there's a house there. Aaaaargh, this is going to be a mess to undo and fix! If I had a real system I could just say "move sun behind house" and the drawing would be fixed...
But then imagine introducing that person to something like a drawing tablet and a digital painting program. And letting them explore a different kind of creativity in a world where things are malleable and easy to move around. A world where you're in control and it's different.
They might go "hey, this is actually kind of fun to work like this. I can fix that sun problem right up. dab dab dab push push and it moves..."
I actually had that experience recently when I bought a drawing tablet and played with Corel Painter 12 and I should play with it more. For instance reference photo and ensuing painting Need to get back to messing with that. Once Rebol gets some more momentum I'll have time. :-)
 
did you paint that duck?
good job!
 
Yup. I think it's a goose, I dunno. I took the photo too... :-)
Other people will tell you Rebol is fast, it makes them productive, maybe they just don't like commas... or they had an Amiga liked it so much that they decided to follow along with the language, and will use it even for purposes it's not actually making them more productive for...
 
@HostileFork Yes, automatic/implicit conversions are a difficult tradeoff between convenience and legibility.
 
But as per the book "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance", that there exists a philosophical notion of Quality that one cultivates over the period of time of working within a system. In that book, he explored the notion through his experience of driving around on a motorcycle that he himself maintained, compared to the experience of those who just got in their cars and drove around.
And as I mentioned above about LEGO alligators, this notion of Quality of a design applies everywhere and you're either sensitive to it or you're not. To some people, this is a perfectly legitimate LEGO alligator:
 
ok Hello World is done
what next? Some tutorial that ends with a small program?
 
5:56 PM
"It fits into the system, it has bumps on its back." Yes and you can take it into exactly three parts... an upper jaw, a hinged tail, and then you have these three things that do nothing else. THAT'S NOT A LEGO ALLIGATOR! This is:
@graph Well... it depends. Do you want to try PARSE or DO? PARSE is kind of more fun for starters I think.
The best thing would be if you had a task you want to try, some kind of data processing or munging... scraping, extracting. A real task is better than a fake one.
 
that's true
something web-based
"Creating and Processing Web Forms with CGI" - it says here on the tutorial page
 
@graph You'll want to look at @earl's answer here for Rebol 3 on that...
 
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