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12:01 AM
I know @BrianH wants to rally the "community of implementations" but the languages that do this successfully have better specs. In our case, the ANSI C code is the spec far too often. "It does what that code does." So it's just not going to work as well.
At least not yet, which is why Rebol and Red need to agree and we get those ducks in a row. This thing is about take off, I knooooow it. The closed source thing held it back for a decade and a half...that's it. It would probably rule the Internet otherwise.
 
check this out
2
Q: appendChild + createElement

user317005what's the difference between var div = document.createElement('div');//output -> [object HTMLDivElement] document.getElementById('container').appendChild(div); and var div = '<div></div>'; document.getElementById('container').appendChild(div);//output -> <div></d...

that's just the kind of question I read as reference for what I was trying to do
this is how I work lol
how do you program? Is it all happening within "known territory"? When questions, do you read the language specification? What if something is not documented in Rebol?
 
@graph StackOverflow is how everyone works these days, but I'm always shocked to hear how many people I know who are older (40s or so) haven't made accounts.
They just google, read it, and never ask questions or answer or comment. I'm like "why not?"
 
yea I havent answered much
that's a separate hobby, no?
 
@graph There's a lot of "institutional knowledge" being carried around in the heads of certain individuals. @BrianH is a walking encyclopedia of every decision that has ever been made, reversed, and knows the how and why. He does a disservice by being able to answer anything you can ask about that. Because what if he were hit by a Mack truck tomorrow or something?
 
I am thankful for the diversity. The languages are different. There is never going to be a common specification. Most of the REBOL like languages use the same literal forms for values which, for me, is an essential lowest common denominator and can be achieved.
 
12:07 AM
suspicious that you would mention a "Mack" truck. A
Not just any truck, but you have a certain truck in mind.
 
Need to go now. I'll try to drop by another time.
 
((hug))
good night. thanks for the fun chat
 
@graph I have seen into the future, and that's the kind of truck that hits BrianH, which is why I've been on such a crusade to get some better methods of institutional knowledge about Rebol out there, such as on StackOverflow. :-)
Hm, I guess I could have just told him to stay inside that day.
Wow, that would have been easier wouldn't it?
 
@HostileFork Saphiron have an encapper for R3 .. private though
 
@GrahamChiu Do you know what platforms they've done it for? Just windows?
 
12:21 AM
@PeterWAWood I tried to tidy it up a little: reb4.me/tt — but it's all the more clear that it is feature deficient at this point. (link of curiosity value only)
 
The windows-centric Rebol bias always sort of confuses me. People still use Windows? (People I know don't.) Why are the latest and greatest features always showing up in the Windows version first--there's like, no hacker cred with Windows. Start with Linux, then get it in the Windows port...
 
@HostileFork Their primary sales is I think for windows
 
That's why I did the Red port on ELF/IA-32 on Linux first.
Well I mean the bias has existed for years, from Carl too.
It's not going to please the kids. "Hey, that's a neat feature. Oh it's only in the... Windows version? W-T-F."
 
Windows was done first because rebol was a commercial project and that's where the money was. Carl uses a Mac though ( he used to work for Apple )
but perhaps these days he's now on linux since he now works for Roku
 
Does he use Git at work?
 
12:27 AM
no idea of what they do at Roku
 
I would assume not, given the issues at the source launch. They must use like, subversion or something.
That's unfortunate.
Some people say "it doesn't matter" and in a sense it doesn't matter for certain usage patterns I just hate to see people using dinosaur tech
When they should know better :-)
 
Rebol source is over 15 years old ..
 
Having a rich history and great design doesn't make something dinosaur tech. :-)
Sucking is what makes something dinosaur tech :-)
 
I meant that sometimes you're stuck with whatever you started out with ... maybe the same applies to Roku as it did to RT
 
12:43 AM
Most of my clients use Windows, so we mainly support Windows here at Respectech. We also have a Mac specialist, and I handle the Linux and BSD stuff for those rare occasions when someone is willing to pay for support on that. We're running our PBX on CentOS and we're looking at offering that as a service to our clients as well.
 
@HostileFork A common test suite can act as a spec. But having a real spec is a good idea. Most of the community-of-implementations languages haven't really been designed, so "be compatible with CPython" is the best they can do. R3 is being designed incrementally, but it is actually being designed, so it's possible that we could put together a proper semantic model for what it means to be a Rebol-like language, especially if the Red people also get involved in the discussions.
 
@BrianH I'm hoping...
But I'll take source-level lexing/parsing compatibility to start with.
And I said what about "Breakfast at Tiffany's?"
She said, "I think I remember the film,
And as I recall, I think, we both kinda liked it."
And I said, "Well, that's one thing we've got."  :-)
 
1:09 AM
@Respectech Dunno if you noticed in the FAQ how to change your avatar... you don't need a gravitar account like you used to. (fixed link)
 
1:24 AM
@Respectech Bo, what editor do you use for Rebol?
 
1:55 AM
Notepad on Windows and Vi or Vim on Linux. (I know, I'm old school.)
 
2:36 AM
So how stripped down could a Rebol in the browser be, as per repl.it, that's going to be a big question. I'm thinking more about it.
So if Carl ever integrated changes, I'd have pushed my dependent and possibly more controversial next change which brings full C++ buildability and also ups the embedded openssh API to the current prototypes. But y'know, there's lots of that kind of stuff already in the browsers available through JavaScript, it wouldn't have to be in the repl.it build.
So I'm wondering how big would the repl.it JS wind up being?
You can #ifdef out features here and there but of course it's better if you make things that should work, work.
Are we going to mainline that? Is everyone cool with those #ifdefs?
I'm wondering about the size just because of curiosity, it doesn't matter as per my music video YouTube argument. The people on the 300 baud modems or whatever are just going to be left out of the game, I prefer to attack that by giving them fiber optics. :-)
"What y'all wanna do? Wanna be hackers? Code crackers? Slackers? Wastin' time with all the chatroom yakkers?"
 
3:14 AM
the rebol plugin was 346kb
 
3:37 AM
@Nick Hi Nick .. same thing .. answer/ask some rebol questions so that you can talk. See FAQ
Any luck with the ftp scheme?
 
@GrahamChiu Compressed I'd assume
@Nick ... like, THE Nick?
 
yes, it says his profile web site is re-bol.com
 
Let us help you get rep, answer a Rebol question or ask one, see the FAQ. You'll be in faster than AltME, I'm waiting to get a password to Rebol4 because Kaj forgot I apologized to him years ago apparently. (And will only accept a re-apology on AltME, the grapevine says.)
 
lol
Nick wants to migrate his tutorials from R2 to R3 and R3/Gui
 
Fine.
 
3:45 AM
which means fixing my ftp scheme :(
@HostileFork it was a dll
@Nick if you ask any rebol Q, we'll get the feed here into this chat
 
@Nick Answer this question with a Rebol/View example:
0
Q: Basic Input from the Command Line in Rebol

Benjamin GruenbaumI am currently in the process of learning Rebol. In other languages I know, I can read input from the command line, for example in Java: Scanner sc = new Scanner(System.in) sc.nextLine(); In C# Console.ReadLine(); In C scanf("%s", s); I was wondering how one would accomplish the same t...

Hmm, or not. I guess the 'request family can be called from the command line :)
 
4:43 AM
"On February 6, 2012, Atwood left Stack Exchange so he could spend more time with his family.[5] Atwood is credited with the proposal of "Atwood's Law" which is a corollary to the Rule of least power design principle. It states that any application that can be written in JavaScript will eventually be written in JavaScript." Hehe
I have a few funny quotes, I wonder if anyone has repeated them. I like my "There are at most three numbers that are relevant in computer programs: 0, 1, and N. Lately I'm not so sure about 1. And I'm getting more skeptical about 0."
 
 
8 hours later…
12:26 PM
Yaaaawn. Morning.
And I awake to an AltME account password.
 
12:46 PM
Hey, why did Rebol choose to not implement mathematical operator precedence?
@rgchris Thank you for your answer
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Hey Benjamin, it would be good to have this question in SO if it's not already there.
@HostileFork Well, who knows what the day could bring else, maybe Kaj will show up here. ;-)
 
@DocKimbel I'm not going to hold my breath, but that would be great. :-)
@BenjaminGruenbaum There is a bit of bad blood from a little incident a few years ago between me and Kaj de Vos, who does a lot of Rebol development and runs the conference, etc. It was kind of my fault.
So there was kind of a demand for a "public" apology, which is ironically not public. :-)
Because so much of what Rebol people do is hidden
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum See the rationale for math operator precedence in Rebol here.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I don't know if this is really a StackOverflow question. Like I say I'm weirdly hesitant about it because I feel like some of these things are too... hmm... "why is Rebol the way it is" style questions aren't quite what the moderators like, and I don't want to get in any arguments over that with them.
"I tried this code, why's it getting an error" is safer, because that's what people usually come to Stackoverflow looking for
@BenjaminGruenbaum But really, the thing is that this is something that one group of people will see as the tail wagging the dog. Like "the decision was made because doing otherwise would make the interpreter less objectively elegant, so you retrain your brain instead of polluting the design, because retraining your brain is better... but the computer is supposed to morph to the human conventions, not vice versa". Other people will say "yup, it's obviously cleaner that way".
I'm someone who doesn't mind retraining what I've been taught if I decide what I was taught was lame. Like in writing, they tell you when you quote a "word," that you are supposed to put the comma inside the quotes like that. That's "proper typographic style". But I always put punctuation outside the quotes unless the punctuation was actually part of what's being quoted.
And if I wrote articles for the New York Times they'd say "Didn't you go to school?". And I'd say "Yes, I did, and much of what I was taught was garbage.". See?
But you also see that looks "funny" and so I don't know. The operator precedence thing is controversial, sure, but it's part of the design and it's not a decision that I consider to be up for debate myself. You can do a dialect specialized for mathematics which has precedence if you wish, and I think that freedom is one of the reasons that the DO dialect need not stress too much over its simplification choice.
And precedence rules are hard to remember. I mess up all the time in C++ so to keep from making mistakes I often put parentheses where I don't need 'em. That's available in Rebol as well.
 
1:49 PM
Heya @pekr. Just reading about myself on AltME. I'm famous. :-)
They have a saying here in politics that "any publicity is good publicity".
 
2:37 PM
For those who didn't notice my comment on AltME: malware rating for AltME.com causes web plugin for web-of-trust to scream "Danger, Will Robinson!"
So anyone who's still advocating strongly for AltME needs to get to fixing that situation, at least...
Once again, I will cite Weird Al... viiiirus alert!
 
@HostileFork I'm reading the rational now, it would probably be more of a programmers question than a SO one
@DocKimbel Thanks, I think this explains it but does not explain the motive, I read about it here: rebol.com/r3/docs/guide/code-eval.html
 
Hm, I hadn't seen that page before.
 
It's what I'm reading at the moment and learning from (the r3 tutorial)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum You're supposed to be able to make your own infix operators in R3... the category of things that are like + and such that "break the rule" a little as a syntactic convenience. So you are able to define your own foo myop bar kinds of things where it has the effective behavior of what would otherwise be myop foo bar.
But I tried that the other day and there was a bug in it or something, I forget. Or maybe I just used it wrong and it crashed instead of advising me how to do it right. It'll be fixed.
 
2:53 PM
I was referring to the decision not to support precedence of mathematical operators, I'm sure Rebol would let me create my own mathematical operators and then do precedence myself I was wondering why was the decision to support mathematical operations but not respect their mathematical order was made
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Looking for the simpler essence of computation. But there are other languages that do this and make you say +(1,2) to get three or what-not. This is where you find Rebol being a big set of thought-through tradeoffs. One slogan is: informed by theory, driven by practice. So you wind up with a bit of an oddity but it really grows on you.
It was worth it in the design to scrap precedence, but not to make people write + 1 2, so the tradeoff was to warp the design around it and you get something a bit weird but ultimately readable.
 
I find polish notation and infix notation equally valid. I'm just not sure why not support operator precedence of math if you're already supporting infix notation. I'm not saying it's not a valid language design choice I'm just wondering why it was made
@HostileFork Why was it worth it in the design to scrap precedence?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Well I told you some people would call it "the tail wagging the dog". But it's just a judgment about what the purpose and intent of the DO dialect really is, and how to keep the interpreter hyper-small and clear and uniform. And in Rebol you do a lot less arithmetic and array indexing anyway so the legacy of what you learned in school or from other languages matters a lot less...
It's pretty rare I need to go to the arithmetic level in Rebol
 
I guess I can see the logic behind not having another parser inside my parser. That makes some sense.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum One side effect of the way Rebol works is you really get to preferring the format of if 7 = length? foo [do stuff] kind of thing because you can't write it the other way without parentheses. If you say if length? foo = 7 [do stuff] the foo = 7 test will be run and then you'll take the length of that. So you wind up throwing in parentheses for if (length? foo) = 7 [do stuff] to get around that and again, we think symbolic parentheses are better used for cooler purposes.
Like templating boilerplate code, indicating DO dialect code to run when parse rules are matched, etc. etc.
@BenjaminGruenbaum This might be a little "deep" for you just yet, but the Rebol is a deep lake is one of those "must reads".
 
3:13 PM
@HostileFork This is all stuff I can do in javascript, but it's nice to know Rebol is capable of this
 
length: [3 + 4]

code: compose [if (do length) = length? [a b c d e f g] [print "Sorry, I would challenge the idea that you can do this kind of thing in Javascript."]]

do code ;-- not length, whoops
Here, compose is a dialect for working with boilerplate, and parentheses are used to call out the pieces of the boilerplate you want evaluated
So when I say we don't like using parentheses for precedence, this is one of the reasons why. Because it's more natural and elegant to write your sentences, as with written language, as words separated by spaces and let your brain do that work. Cleaner.
But the DO dialect still allows you to implement precedence with parentheses, if you must.
 
What does the do code ; -- not length, whoops part do?
 
Oh, it just runs the code that was stored in the variable.
That's when the print statement gets executed.
 
The compose was just taking a template, a boilerplate of code which is a symbolic structure but that didn't have the number 7 evaluated in it...and it evaluated the 7 literally so you had the 7 in the code. Like, literally.
 
3:21 PM
what's the -- not length, whoops comment part?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Oh, I edited it because I had typed do length, I screw up a lot because I write stuff off the cuff and don't copy and paste out of an interpreter, bad habit. Semicolon is a comment to end of line.
I think semicolons are a little thin on their own, so I like to double them up like ;; comment or do like Doc does with ;-- comment, it's a matter of taste.
 
    If I don't use any syntactic sugar like arrow notation and I don't mind globals I get
    length = function(){return 3+4};
    code = function(){(length()>7) || alert("I'm not sure, but I think I can");}
    code();
If I use notation that isn't cross browser
    length = () => 3+7;
    code = () => (length()>7) || alert("I'm not sure, but I think I can")
    code();
^ no need for partials I just need it to print not to return the print function
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Did you read through my Dudeney Numbers Article? Look at things like interleave-block and show me how you'd do this kind of thing nicely in JavaScript.
Note I'm doing parentheses training wheels, that's very "ugly" Rebol code, but I want to help people understand.
 
I'm not claiming it's as powerful, I'm just saying that the article rebol.com/article/0103.html does not show its power
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I can see how someone might, at first, on the surface, think that being able to call code stored in a function is more-or-less isomorphic and equally useful to being able to hold code itself in variables. And yes, some examples do not really drive home the difference. Carl wasn't trying to prove that particular point in that article, though...different deep point.
I think--and this is something I've started to realize--a lot of Rebol online explanation really seems to assume people know Lisp already. And many younger people just don't. They're not even teaching it in CS programs half the time. So we often, perhaps, misguidedly assume that we should focus on defining Rebol by its differences from Lisp without properly helping people through the logic of why Lisp was so amazing.
 
3:32 PM
I'm not sure how your algorithm works, I can implement the functions you use like this:
    digitCount = (n) => (n+"").split('').length;
    digitSum = (n) => (n+"").split('').reduce((a,b) => a+b);
    makeDigitBlock = (n) => (n+"").split('').map(x=>parseInt(x));
    interleaveBlock = (n,op) => makeDigitBlock(n).join("op").split("");
I can run javascript code from within javascript as well if that's an issue
 
^ that looks awesome
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum There's some things you can do with strings, sure, and there's always the trap in teaching that if you choose a really hard example you run the risk of people not being able to understand the solution. Yet an easy example they will feel they can do another way with a more conventional tool. I don't have a perfect answer for this problem.
Because javascript has eval, it can do some stuff if you're careful, but it's risky and brittle.
Your help in defining what's convincing or unconvincing is valuable to us.
Once someone is convinced, it's hard to see the world or problem space from a fresh point of view.
 
I'd still argue that javascript solves this problem as cleanly as Rebol, I'm sure Haskell solves this beautifully
 
Well it wasn't a Rosetta code problem, it was just something I got curious about and wrote up. And I guess the thing is, you don't realize quite how semi-horrified I am at the JavaScript you use above because it doesn't fit my symbolic aesthetics...it's like that RegEx doc posted about the IP address vs the Rebol parse...
Some people would go "but I don't understand the Rebol and I understand the RegEx, so RegEx wins". It's hard to argue with that.
 
3:41 PM
That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm defining mathematical functions and then calling them, I'm really not sure what is not clean about it. Not to mention in Haskell it would be solved in 5 lines in a pattern match.
Get all the right triangles with integer edges and range between 1 and 10 and parameter 24 in haskell:
  let rightTriangles' = [ (a,b,c) | c <- [1..10], b <- [1..c], a <- [1..b], a^2 + b^2 == c^2, a+b+c == 24]
Again, I'm not saying Rebol isn't useful or awesome. I'm just saying I'm not sure it solves this particular problem better than all other languages
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Certain tools are optimized for certain domains, you won't find me arguing against that. But the thing that's truly interesting about Rebol is the tool's willingness to adapt itself to your problem, whatever it is. It is easy for Rebol to be adapted to do a dialect for that (although the <- is not currently a valid symbolic word, though I think it probably should be)
But it's not so easy for the reverse to happen. Look for instance at my Rubol (just an expeirment, don't judge too harsh)
And if one is a bit-twiddling geek who finds stuff like this amazing, you'll appreciate the craftsmanship of the artifact itself...
4
Q: What languages or methods allow graphics & music demos to fit in 64kb EXEs?

SynxmaxHow is it possible that in a 64kb compiled exe, these programs can generate such crazy visuals, complete with matching music? An example: Ars Nova By Phantom Lord (YouTube video of the demo running) This program's only 64kb in size! How did they do that? Are they using some sorts of pre-exist...

 
IP validity in javascript:
isValidIp = function(x) {
    digits = x.split(".");
    return digits.length === 3 && digits.reduce(function(x,elem){return x && elem>=0 && elem<=255});
}
@HostileFork That looks interesting :)
@BenjaminGruenbaum I can make it considerably shorter if I can assume stuff, or use coffeescript or typescript
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum The aspect that you're missing is that you just don't have any good injection points. Yes, you solved that specific problem, in a very narrow way. But software engineering is about the evolution of exceptional cases, changes in the specification, changes in rules. By writing it like that, you don't see how weak it is, because you don't realize how you don't have the points to hook in something if it turns out your needs change a little.
 
@HostileFork Again, I'm not doubting the usefulness of Rebol instead of having to parse and tokenize (in this case the split and reduce) myself. I just think it probably shines in more complicated situations
 
3:56 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yes but you see my point on the conundrum. Trying to teach someone a tool that shines at managing crazy levels of complexity involves them understanding or seeing a very complex problem, and that's antithetical to teaching.
Try and look at your code above as a bunch of "knobs". Each symbol in the code, is a knob you can turn or tweak or twist.
Your "3" for instance, there it is. It's a piece of your artifact, a knob you can tweak. You can dial that up to 4, or 1000, or whatever.
When you see it as we do, you'll realize that in general programmers are building machines with the wrong knobs. Their "hardened" "clever" code must be rewritten and there is churn disproportional to a change in specification.
Is it short? Does it work? Well, maybe it does. "No one has invented a programming language in which it's the least bit difficult to write bad code." as the saying goes.
 
JavaScript excels in having the ability to write poor code in, it's so easy to abuse
 
Well I don't consider it that much worse than anything else, Python or Ruby, or whatever. At least it's deployed on every machine in the world at the moment.
So it has a point.
 
I'd argue that java script code is easier to abuse than python code :) There are parts of the language you're not supposed to touch. They exist there for backwards competibility but you're not supposed to use them at all or to any extent.
 
But at a higher view, a view of the act of programming as running a program in its own right, you realize you need the ability to meta-program. To treat code as data. Now I use C++11 and sometimes building hardened tools needs a different approach, but if I'm going to be throwing out my formalisms and use an interpreter I better be getting something back in return. Rebol gives it, those languages do not.
 
4:19 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum The Rebol difference is systemic, it's about language and aesthetics, and I can't really say much other than it's a black hole into which many have fallen and not come back. Instead of a && b && c you can write all [a b c]. Instead of a || b || c you write any [a b c].
You can write a switch statement with executed conditions and get:
case [
    a [print "a case"]
    b [print "b case"]
    all [c d e] [print "cde case"]
]
 
in javascript [a,b,c].all and [a,b,c].some
 
I think you're missing the point still...
 
(well, you pass a parameter to all and some in js (in this case the identity function)
 
It's not just about ugliness of commas and dots. That's part of it, but only a little part.
It's not even about the DO dialect. It's that it was a tool good enough to build the DO dialect, good enough to build PARSE, good enough to use and recycle both of those into building ever more elegant machinery.
 
@HostileFork I'm not, but I think you'll have a hard time convincing me on why Rebol is better for simple cases like IP and email parsing, or switch cases. I think it''s an awesome concept for places where I have to do tokenization of complicated structues.
 
4:22 PM
It's about you can have ideas like this and just make them, when you need them, and feel as natural as if it were built in to the language.
 
In JavaScript switch/case is often frowned upon btw, it's considered bad practice since we have first order functions.
 
Well, you don't parse emails and IPs in Rebol. They're first class datatypes and you just load them. If they're not what they're supposed to be, they won't load.
 
@rebolek Again, I'm not doubting the usefulness or power of using Rebol, I just think @HostileFork is going to have a pretty hard time convincing me it's easier for very simple examples.
I'm always ready to be convinced though :)
I'll probably make more educated statements after I complete the tutorial
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum regarding Rebolek's point, yes.... note that you can do type? 1.2.3.4 and get back tuple. Then reverse 1.2.3.4 and get back 4.3.2.1 ... then length? 1.2.3.4 and get back 4. It's another series type.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I understand. You just don't need to do that simple stuff in Rebol. It can do it for yourself.
 
4:28 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum So the point really is about the knobs, and the injection points, and having your code really matching the spec. Your IP address parser may work but it gets hard, what if you want to do variable substitution so that users can say things like 123.FOO.21.[suffix for float 0.295]. There is almost no component of your code that you can reuse there. Nothing you wrote remains useful because the aspects were not properly factored.
In Rebol you can almost always salvage some of what you wrote and tweak it happily. If you don't reuse or modify code, then sure...okay, I guess it's not that much better. Then I have to make arguments from aesthetics, such as "I don't like all those commas and parentheses, they look like cruft, like your code is breaking out in a rash or something".
 
JavaScript uses the philosophy one should not care about something's type. It has a broken typeof operator and no intent to fix it.
@rebolek I'm not sure I would make the bigger code base or more available libraries argument if I were you :-)
JavaScript uses the philosophy one should not care about something's type. It has a broken typeof operator and no intent to fix it.
Sorry, my internet got disconnected
If you see any duplicate messages or anything
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum But having in your back pocket the ability to go "hm, I think this would be better if the language were bent a little more" then it's impressive. Check out when I added an enumerated type to Rebol, which it did not have. How many languages without enumerated types can you really get something that good with after the fact?
"Oh, but in my language X, you can make a class, and then..." and then what? I'll tell you what. And then you are going to be invoking it with (myenum()#&(^U)=>banana**lambdaX ==) or whatever garbage notation is shoved down your throat by the medium instead of writing the code how you want it to look.
There's a saying I like: "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world around him, while the unreasonable man expects the world to adapt to him. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." Rebol is the programming language for unreasonable men (and women, and AI, or whoever)
 
@HostileFork Love that quote, have it written on a Post-It on my desk
Helps remind me of who I need to be
 
@SomeKittens We do have some "unreasonable" people in the Rebol community. :-)
@BenjaminGruenbaum When looking at old code on the net in Rebol written by me, please realize that I was a newbie and more going for the philosophy, I'm not that good a Rebol coder though I am better now.
I'm a very good programmer in a general sense, but people have clocked many...many...many more hours doing actual Rebol programming than I have. I've really not done all that much. I wasn't willing to invest too much in a closed source tool.
I've probably spent more time making clay sculptures, drawing icons, editing videos, debating things on wikis, and chatting than Rebol programming.
 
4:46 PM
@HostileFork Yeah, I feel that way about programming in general
 
(One of my first marketing concepts was that Rebol was like modeling clay, because of its uniform substrate...and that the wide number of datatypes were like the tools you carve it with. It was considered too childish and colorful I think to be accepted because "Rebol is serious business". But one thing that came out of that was that I had the 3D bracketed O logo idea while I was making it.)
Just carved off the REB and the L and thought "hmm. I like that"
 
@dt2 wonderful avatar which happens to be incredibly relevant right now.
 
@SomeKittens He complained my logo was too "icy" and said it needed to be "friendlier" and drew that. I tidied it up for his avatar. :-)
 
dt2
/me points proudly to @hostilefork for the basics. i gave it more face :)
 
It favicons really well I think:
And it can even by typed in text. [o]
The antialiasing was a pain to get right, I had to do it all by hand, when you start working at that resolution it's sucky.
But anyway my point for @BenjaminGruenbaum and @SomeKittens and @graph is that the thing you might not know but is important is... I'm more the greeting crew, not the Rebol guru. The others are the ones who are going to be chiming in with the "um, here's the real answer" to your questions.
But like the saying goes: "Q: What do you need to know to teach a dog a trick?" "A: More than the dog."
 
dt2
4:55 PM
Depends. all you need to do is getting a dangling saucage, they find the tricks on their own. :)
Should bookmark this moment and look how much of it is true in a month. about your rebolling :)
 
@dt2 Heh, I read something about dolphins that these trainers were going through a hard time teaching some dolphins at an aquarium tricks, and then eventually they managed to communicate to them the idea that they'd get a fish if they just did something "new". So the dolphins started doing just that.
 
dt2
they are rebolfish :)
 
Dolphins are freaking crazy
 
We need to parse dolphins with Rebol. parse [click click click squeeeek [splash splash] click] [3 'click 'squeeeek into [some 'splash] 'click]
 
dt2
5:12 PM
We dont need no fish-throwing humans. scripting our own!
also, its not parse. its turtle-graphics implemented with mud!
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Note INTO. This is another one of the coolio things you can do with parse, which is to go into series types. You can even do it with strings. So parse [click click "squeeeeeek" splash] [2 'click into ["squ" some "e" "k"] 'splash] for instance... hehe
 
dt2
but remember the [and block! into], or it goes into every series including strings...
 
@dt2, guten Abend
 
dt2
is water a series?
Hallo Graph :)
 
you posted your repository that had some german comments/titles
otherwise we don't know each other
 
dt2
5:19 PM
yes, its not very polished. straight from the experimenting notes.
i noticed you noticed i am german when i caught up here. looking for the @dt2 is another chat-feature :)
 
I'm not sure I fully understand what you meant
 
@graph You can use the search box, upper right hand corner... (to look for people talking about you behind your back, among other things) :-)
 
yes ah ok
got it... you guys do your research on the whole chat before you enter/contribute
 
dt2
Have to leave. cu.
(no, we listen to @hostilefork :)
 
5:27 PM
@graph I don't really advise being too worried about "catching up" because it's labor intensive and wastes time...I want this to be lighter weight than that... if something's interesting we should star it. The goal is to bring the current hidden Rebol world out to talk to the general public, and be more hands-on with explaining it...just whoever's awake, and if you miss it you missed it. :-)
But people will do what they want. It's there, you can read the history if you feel like... all the way back to the day the room was started in 2010 or whenever
 
I'll do that when I fully convert to Rebolism
 
@graph Well, it's not a requirement for Rebolbaptism. :-)
You do, however, have to take the Rebol oath. :-P
 
but reading it once in your lifetime sure is expected from really devoted followers
oh how does the Rebol oath go?
 
Hehe just kidding. No, actually, the devoted followers were not very supportive of my idea of making this room. They don't like it because the web isn't written in Rebol. They like their inner sanctum all-Rebol chat system better.
 
nice
so I have a question
 
5:31 PM
I think that AltME is preffered becuase of other reasons than it's written in Rebol.
 
That's been a hot topic for today, about whether people think my idea is good or bad, and the grumpy folks don't want to give up their system and come out to where the developers are.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum The reason is much simpler than what it seems at the first sight. In Rebol, there are no reserved words. Due to that, the '+' or '-' words are just words, not "operators". As such, they cannot reasonably have any precedence, you can even do set [ + * ] reduce [ :* :+ ], which pretty much explains why it does not make much sense to define precedence.
 
@rebolek I think the "implemented in Rebol" blinds a lot of people to the missing features, which they would hardly be blind to if it were written in Tcl/Tk...or whatever.
@graph Sure...
 
@Ladislav Thanks, that makes sense
 
i'll get back to it later
 
5:34 PM
And in other news, progress being made on the Android version. Cool.
mobile dialects... coming soon to a Galaxy SIII, or Nexus 7, or whatever near you...
I'm not totally sure what these programs are going to be doing, but I guess we'll find out what someone makes when they make it.
 
@HostileFork : have you checked the platforms Pull request?
 
WinCE still exists? :-)
 
There are some old platforms copied from R2, but I suppose that can be WM, or WRT, ...
@HostileFork I wanted you to check Haiku...
 
@Ladislav Okay, looked at it... I don't have much opinion. The only opinion I have is that the idea of using numbers for platforms is weird, not totally convinced of the benefit of the numbers for the main platform. But yup, 5.75, that was the joke for Haiku so long as the numbers are there.
 
@HostileFork OK, Cyphre just adjusted it so that it could work as intended, did not change it completely
So, those having Android devices can test R3-Droid/Core on them
 
6:04 PM
@earl, @HostileFork Hasn't the countdown timer gone off yet?
 
@Adrian I'm sure the decision is made, it probably just takes time for the missiles to fly to their target. :-)
 
6:48 PM
Greetings @pyCthon. What's up?
And how do you pronounce that? :-) "Pike-thon"?
 
7:00 PM
Seems cyphre has a working R3/GUI on Android .. just needs optimizing
 
@GrahamChiu not yet
 
When it is done, how would one go about putting scripts into the play store or whatever it is called?
Would you have to encap scripts?
 
7:16 PM
@GrahamChiu Frankly, I do not know the rules. I am currently running Rebol scripts on Android (the test framework). Whether we will be able to put Rebol scripts into the play store is another issue somebody will have to resolve.
However, there may be other ways how scripts can be distributed, so I do not worry much.
 
7:30 PM
@Ladislav heh .. I must have dreamt it then!
 
8:05 PM
code: copy/part response 4
Seems ftp can send responses back as 3 digit space, or 3 digit "-"
Perhaps this would be better
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum In Rebol's world, type has meaning. Type carries semantics: read %foo and read http://foo have different implications. Becomes useful when building dialects: field 'name 60 238.238.238 #"n" or name: opt string! [2 60 alphanum] is within ["Fred" "Barney"]
 
>> tail-code: charset [ #" " #"-" ]
== make bitset! #{000000008004}

parse response [ copy code 3 digit tail-code to end ]
 
Expecting types is useful too—can help a lot with debugging: func [x [integer!]][x]
 
and then I can remove all the extraneous spaces in the switch statements
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I do wonder how many bytes it'd take to implement CoffeeScript in Rebol.
@BenjaminGruenbaum [a,b,c].all returns undefined for me where a b and c are set to true (Chrome)
@HostileFork I disagree, I think it's a bigger than little part.
@BenjaminGruenbaum I'm not sure what this means, switch/case don't seem well implemented in JS. Something like this is handy: file-type: switch file-suffix [%.png ['image/png] %.jpg %.jpeg ['image/jpeg]]
Anyway, sorry @GrahamChiu—saw the earlier conversation and just wanted to add my 2p.
 
8:27 PM
@rgchris you're in Kansas now .. not the UK. 2c :)
 
2p is worth more (still)
 
So, therefore this contribution is worth more?
 
Possibly, I'm just charging more.
 
Anyone know off hand where the url parser is in R3? I'd like to be able to do this

port: open ftp://user%40rebol.com:password@ftp.rebol.com
hmm. Maybe I can dehex in the 'open function
Nope.
note all the charsets defined there!
 
8:59 PM
So, the user rule accepts %40 but then somewhere else it dehexes it back to "@"
and so this stops you using %40 in your username
 
@GrahamChiu ? decode-url
Decode a URL according to rules of sys/*parse-url.
DECODE-URL is a function value.
Hmm...
>> decode-url user%40rebol.com:password@ftp.rebol.com
== [scheme: 'ftp user: "user" host: "rebol.com" path: ":password@ftp.rebol.com/"]

>> decode-url "ftp://user%40rebol.com:password@ftp.rebol.com/"
== [scheme: 'ftp pass: "password" user: "user%40rebol.com" host: "ftp.rebol.com" path: "/"]
 
so it's preserving the %40 there
 
Noted here: issue.cc/r3/1644
 
ok, I'm a few years late to the party
which word is actually doing the dehexing?
 
9:17 PM
I don't think it's a word:
(holds for R2 as well)
Also too:
>> to-url "ftp://user%40rebol.com:password@ftp.rebol.com/"
== user%2540rebol.com:password@ftp.rebol.com

>> decode-url to-url "ftp://user%40rebol.com:password@ftp.rebol.com/"
== [scheme: 'ftp pass: "password" user: "user%40rebol.com" host: "ftp.rebol.com" path: "/"]
 
ok, we've had this conversation before ...
but this is good!
>> cmd: open decode-url "ftp://user%40rebol.com:password@ftp.rebol.com"
make object! [
    title: "FTP Protocol"
    scheme: 'ftp
    ref: [scheme: 'ftp pass: "password" user: "user%40rebol.com" host: "ftp.rebo
l.com"]
    path: none
    host: "ftp.rebol.com"
    port-id: 21
    pass: "password"
    user: "user%40rebol.com"
]
port opened ...
 
9:41 PM
@HostileFork You around?
 
next question is whether one should dehex the user name inside the port actor 'open ...
 
9:57 PM
I think it should have been done by 'decode-url
But then, I guess it was—it converted "%40" to %2540 (url value), then dehexed that!
What a nasty situation!
 
@SomeKittens Back, what's up?
 
@HostileFork Hi! Was wondering if you had some time to look over my YC stuff and see if you're willing to pass it on to your Ruby friend.
 
@rgchris is that possible?
 
Looking at the CC issue @GrahamChiu referenced pointed me to another one which Jerry had logged. Has anyone seen/heard from him since Rebol went OS? There's nothing on AltME since that date.
 
@GrahamChiu No—if decode-url parses a string, it stays a string. It should dehex IMO, but doesn't.
(source sys*/parse-url)
@GrahamChiu Well, I mean—it is possible, but it doesn't. :)
 
10:13 PM
@SomeKittens Oh. Well no guarantees on doing it straightaway, or promises on thinking it's worth bothering him about, as I've not seen it. But I will look at what you're doing, if for no other reason than to advise you on how Rebol might be applied to helping your problem...
My address is: to email! reduce [reverse "nairb" "@" (parse http://hostilefork.com [thru "//" copy domain to ["/" | end]] domain)] :-)
(Once the spammers get Rebol interpreters, the Internet will explode anyway. :-P)
 
Nicely done. What's thru? help thru doesn't give any information
 
@HostileFork select decode-url http://hostilefork.com [host:]
 
It's a parse dialect keyword - means up through, or until the end of the thing that follows the keyword.
 
@SomeKittens That's because it's a word being used by the PARSE dialect, not part of the DO dialect. HELP currently really only gives you information about terms that were ascribed meaning (at least initially in the) interpreter. There should be a mechanism to get help on these things from dialects, though.
@rgchris My goal was to make it hard to read, not easy. :-)
 
@HostileFork My bad if the spam starts flowing.
 
10:21 PM
>> decode-url foo.com/bar/baz/something-something.html
== [scheme: 'http host: "foo.com" path: "/bar/baz/something-something.html"]
 
@HostileFork Either that or they can whois you :)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum What? People can find that stuff out? Oh noes. There goes my Internet Anonymity Plan.
 
@HostileFork and to think I thought you were an actual fork :(
 
Like the furries, I believe that whatever your inner soul is, you can be that...be it animal, mineral, or cutlery. It's mind over matter.
 
@rgchris You're right, it's my bad it's not all it's every
@rgchris You do that, sounds interesting :)
@rgchris In JS that would be implemented using an array of functions, that way I can add choices to the switch later and dynamically and then use decide[fileSuffix]()
 
10:28 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum I'd like to—unfortunately there's only one of me and I'm otherwise engaged for a little while.
@BenjaminGruenbaum still would like to learn coffeescript :)
@BenjaminGruenbaum Only ask 'cause I'm curious, but how does this look?
 
@SomeKittens anyway, that decode-url thing above is a utility that turns the string-based URL! type into a series of symbols which can effectively be accessed by a method that is structural. select is like saying you want to find the parameter and then return the thing after it.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum The point is—CoffeeScript isn't JavaScript. It piggybacks on top of it sure, but CS isn't a subset of JavaScript. Fork might just as easily use his CodeGolf language.
 
    :7892014 using very verbose syntax:
    var myDecisionMap = {
        'jpg':'image/jpg',
        'png':'image/png'
    };
    myDecisionMap['jpg'];//image/jpg (myDecisionMap.jpg also works);

   more complicated example:
   var myDecisionMap = {
       'jpg':function(){ /* some logic here*/ return 'image/jpg';},
       'png':function(){ /* logic here */ return 'image/png';}
    };
    myDecisionMap['jpg']();
 
Or, I could make up a language to suit that one purpose.
 
@HostileFork , how does your golf script compare with Jeff's alien script?
 
10:33 PM
@rgchris CoffeeScript isn't javascript, but it's very similar, if you know one you can learn the either in a matter of an hour
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Right, but for the purposes of that exercise (parsing IP addresses in JS), that's a bit of a cheat.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum, do you prefer JavaScript over CS? Don't you find the latter to be cleaner looking?
 
the alien script still uses spaces
 
@rgchris Passing in a block for what select looks for is unfamiliar to me so I would have used select decode-url http://hostilefork.com quote host: . Now I'm having deja vu about how select [a b c d e f] [c d] gets you d... when it should get you e I'd think.
 
closer to the ideals of Rebol
 
10:36 PM
@rgchris The IP code wasn't in CoffeeScript it was in vanilla JS
 
@HostileFork I actually wanted to change to quote host: but it timed out on me...
 
@Adrian CS = C#?
 
coffeescript
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum "I can make it considerably shorter if I can assume stuff, or use coffeescript or typescript"
 
@Adrian I like CS, I'm not sure I like it better than JS, I have a lot less experience with it. It was very useful at a point but a lot of its features are not available in JS, especially collection stuff
 
10:38 PM
not available or now?
 
@GrahamChiu It compares as "not a turing tarpit, and designed with a fair amount of thought." :-)
 
@rgchris Yes, there is plenty of useful syntactic sugar for JS that is in ECMAScript 6, there are alpha implementations but nothing that's passed RC that's for sure
@Adrian Some are (available now but not when CoffeeScript started) :)
Also, one of the main concerns when I'm writing code is maintainability, and writing in CoffeeScript is not worth it unless I'm working with other people who'd bother learning it as well.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum So give us the bells and whistles JS example then :)
 
@GrahamChiu If you didn't read the Rebmu source the design is fairly good and well-documented. But I'd definitely be using parse in this day and age for the "unmushing"!!!
 
@rgchris For that specific IP example I'm not sure it'd make much of a difference save a few characters it would not be inherently different. (function(){}) changes to () => and that sort of stuff
@rgchris I'm really not looking for an argument on 'which language is better at this or that' . I'm here to learn Rebol, I'm in no position to argue what it's good or bad it. From what I understand and learned so far it has some interesting concepts that are unlike other languages I know which is really cool and interesting.
 
10:50 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum I'm not arguing either, I'm just trying to grok your perspective.
 
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