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4:12 PM
Hello, Rebolers and Reders!
 
KK.
@pierre Hello!
 
I've been out for a while. Haven't had much news lately from the Re(d)bol world, I'm trying to catch up...
 
KK.
@SomnathMuluk Hello.
 
Hey, many people here! Excellent, Fork must be happy! ;)
 
KK.
3 hours ago, by HostileFork
I have to sleep, but we had @pekr and @sunanda join up in the same day, I will sleep happy. Nite folks.
 
4:23 PM
I've seen the annoucement from MaxV, and I quickly browsed through rebol.informe.com/portal.html : so, is now github.com/angerangel/r3bazaar THE reference for live rebol3 source code??
 
I don't think so.
 
I guess I should try to fork this repo, and see how live it is. Hm.
There were some comments, on the French digicamsoft.com forum, quite worried; the title of the post was "R3 est-il au point mort ?" => "Is R3 idle / not working" (not sure about the exact English translation; litterally, it asks if the gear stick is on neutral, on R3 car. More or less...)
 
@pierre No, it is not.
 
Ouf. I feel better, now.
I think the question was triggered by the rythm of pulls on the reference r3 trunk on github?
 
The speed of merges, yes.
 
4:33 PM
Yes, that's what I meant. I am still unpacking my gear, so I did not take time to check the git
One quick question: is /view available for all platforms for rebol3?...
 
No, just Win (and Amiga)
 
@pierre No. Publicly it is only available for Win32, at the moment.
 
ok
 
We have an effort under way to coordinate the active community (the one we know of, at least) around a "community repository", where the speed of merges should increase.
If you wanna help with that, just stick around. There will be ample opportunity :)
 
4:48 PM
my god this really is a tedious chatting environment. Sorry for those who love it (are there any?), but its only redeaming feature is that its ... hum ... ugh ... sigh ... well ... actually... I haven't found one yet.
 
@moliad I consider it a very nice chatting environment. It's a bad forum :)
Redeeming features? Flat-threaded replies. User mentions. Nicely searchable history. Limited editability for quick typo corrections.
2
Oneboxing:
REBOL ( ; Relative Expression Based Object Language) is a cross-platform data exchange language and a multi-paradigm dynamic programming language designed by Carl Sassenrath for network communications and distributed computing. The language and its official implementation are developed by REBOL Technologies. REBOL Technologies also claims the name REBOL as a trademark. Douglas Crockford of JavaScript fame has described REBOL as "a more modern language, but with some very similar ideas to Lisp, in that it's all built upon a representation of data which is then executable as programs" and ...
Integration of RSS feeds. Permalinks. Public.
 
Maxim (@moliad), let me add some good points I see. Ability to link to previous posts in the chat that have scrolled off.
starrable posts
 
Lightweight markup including links.
 
Btw, I recommend using the chat modification script mentioned in the FAQ.
It gives you a few shortcuts and adds timestamps and IDs to the posts.
 
Code formatting:
>> 21 * 2
== 42
Basically, just a comparatively well-executed modern web-based chat :)
 
4:56 PM
Andreas already mentioned that posts are editable for 2 minutes - that includes deleting, btw.
 
@moliad In any case, would be great if you could overcome your aversions, Maxim, and just drop by for a quick chat every once in a while :)
 
@pekr Petr, I asked a bunch of times myself, on his blog. Either he didn't notice (though after repeating a bunch of times I would doubt it) or there's a good reason for Carl to hold back on the R3 chat back-end being opened up. I'm guessing that he might see some potential for a revenue stream in a messaging back end if Rebol were to really take off.
 
5:18 PM
@earl The issues are with the overall interface. A lot of what you guys are saying the chat can do is completely obscured by the GUI. anyhow, I don't want to start a thread on this, it was just a little comment.
I do pass by once and a while, but I just can't bear to read threads like this, I don't use twitter for the same reason. so if the discussion isn't currently occuring, I'll probably not comment, unless you direct a post my way directly (and I get an alert in my inbox ;-)
 
This is basically water cooler chat; no need to read threads well in the past.
When you are online, it's easy to to chime in to the discussion. When you are not, you are not :)
 
@Sunanda there advantages to the jumble, especially for a format as limited as SO chat is. I'm not knocking limits, they can be good, just ask Twitter. However, the particular set of limits can shape the interaction model. In this case, SO chat is like one of the bigger general-purpose AltME groups, but with a few important differences.
For one thing, the 3 minute window to edit your posts cuts down on typos, particularly the ones I am prone to. Secondly, it feels ephemeral like AltME, but it isn't actually ephemeral: you can link to messages if you need to, it has web presence. Thirdly, the message limit and combined topic pretty much force us to move to much better venues like CC and Github issues when having language design discussions.
AltME's lack of a limit on message length made it more likely that we'd have the kinds of discussions there for which it was extremely badly suited, just because we knew that is where we would find people we needed to talk to. And then we would be spending too much time getting around its limits. Here, the limits are built in, so we're pretty much forced to go to better places for that kind of thing. It's a good thing.
Plus, the reply feature lets us deal with a common problem in AltME: People talking past each other. Conversations in a chat room can get a little asynchronous. The reply function, when added to the 3 minute edit window, let's you clarify which message you were replying to when another message was posted in the meanwhile. It's more useful that you'd think.
About the ephemeral thing: There are so many messages here that only the ones that get starred really last - the rest get lost in the torrent. And only the ones that get actually linked will last longer than the starred list. And that's a good thing, because most conversations in life are better forgotten.
 
Speaking of replying specifically to other messages, @pekr, @rebolek, @pierre (and any others), you can reply to another message even if it has scrolled off long ago, by hovering over the message and clicking the little bent arrow icon in the bottom right of the message box.
I added a section in the room FAQ for this. As mentioned there, if you use the chat modification script (also mentioned in the FAQ), messages are rendered with an ID which you can type, if you find typing faster than using your mouse.
 
5:40 PM
@earl was not this fork to do this? github.com/angerangel/r3bazaar
(would it be insane if I paste here its contents?)
 
@pierre I think we've seen @MaxV's posting about the R3 Bazaar. I don't know if Max would have actually gone that route if he would've known that things are still moving ahead even without Carl being involved.
 
Hm. All this needs coordination, it seems. And openeness (whether this is English or not...): if things happen in "obscure" places, it is likely that many efforts may be started, here and there, without coordination, and ending up in dispersion...
Rebol community NEEDS to GATHER.
And I totally agree with MaxV's analysis.
 
@pierre That may have been the idea behind this fork yes. But it's not the technicalities of creating a Git repository that are the problem here, it's coordinating the community.
 
yes
There was a good point from ? was it Nick Antonaccio? concerning a simple forum engine, written in Rebol. It could have been a good place to all gather.
 
5:56 PM
For a Q/A Forum, SO is one of the best.
 
Yes, but not as a forum
This chat is neat, also
 
I strongly dislike forums.
 
@rgchris +1!
 
For everything good about a forum, SO Q/A + Chat is better.
 
@earl you don't seem to be using 'code' markup here (at least it doesn't render like code in backticks for me). What method did you use to preserve formatting?
 
5:57 PM
But I must admit that it is useful to browse a forum, and find some good posts, interesting comments, etc.
 
@Adrian Indents.
 
I found AltMe quite good for chatting, but very time-consuming...
 
thanks, Chris
 
@pierre too many interesting Rebol topics are tied up as comments to some old content delivery system, we need better structure.
 
Yes, I totally agree.
And we need ONE.
Or... One of my ideas would be that some dispersion can be acceptable, as long as culture and language (human) are concerned: one forum / mailing list / chat / AltMe / younameit per language, would be acceptable, imho
 
6:00 PM
@pierre Until that time, there's this.
Could still use more questions though. Create a better impression of the language (data, not marketing).
 
@rgchris what do you mean by "this" => stackoverflow chat?
 
Yes.
 
yes, but...
no topics, necessity to get a good reputation refraining people...
Something like Carl's blog engine could be very good, for instance
 
That is fracture. Fracture is bad.
 
Hosted on rebol.com, but open to anyone to post
which fracture?
 
6:05 PM
Fracture of ideas. Focus. Purpose.
 
Carl's blog engine is on rebol.org (probably not the latest version)
 
This is coalescence, coalescence is good.
 
@rgchris ah, you mean fracture of ideas, among various cultures and human languages?
on the other hand, I noticed that when people are speaking their native language, they are much more expressive, productive, than when speaking in some kind of broken English (what I'm trying to do right now...)
 
@pierre Hmm, no—I think it's a form of ADD and is overly difficult to curate.
 
Also, people express their feelings in a much better, nuanced manner: there is much less miscomprehension
Of course, it would be necessary to merge ideas, at some point, into an English central place; some people already play this role (in the French-speaking Rebol community, at least).
 
6:15 PM
@pierre It seems at least that this is happening, this chat is central (and has some nifty features), much development information is (as I understand it) migrating to GitHub.
 
@pierre, why don't you create a chat room with exactly the same name as this one, but with (French/Francais) at the end. You can have the kind of nuanced conversation you want there, but be just a click away from this room when it makes sense. By keeping the names almost identical, they would be seen as being 'joined', or with equal purpose.
I would like to hear what you guys have to say in there too.
And all the Rebol/Red rooms could be linked in a (localized) FAQ.
 
@pierre The focus on points is misleading. Any introductory site to Rebol could easily say, 'General Rebol Chat is on StackOverflow'—to participate, you need a SO account and an initial contribution to Q/A'.
Any introductory site would have better copy
 
Maybe it makes sense in other languages, but I don't see need for Czech Rebol forum.
 
Maybe there aren't enough Czech Rebol users, @rebolek. The RebelBB (for french users) was pretty active at one point.
Is English spoken fluently by the majority of software developers in the Czech Republic?
 
Yes, English isn't problem for majority of developers. That's the problem with foreign forums, I remember searching something on google and it took me to French Rebel-BB and I was lost.
 
6:30 PM
With Google translate this shouldn't be that much of a problem anymore.
 
@Adrian it is if google messes things big time, which is not rare.
Still, much better than nothing..
 
Added an anchor to the Who's Who? page on the FAQ—seems sort of lonely at the moment.
 
@rgchris We should probably have them for all questions there so we can quickly direct people to the appropriate text.
 
[I've never heard of Rebol or Red. What's the elevator pitch?](https://github.com/hostilefork/r3-hf/wiki/StackOverflow-Chat-FAQ#wiki-what)
[What's okay to talk about here?](https://github.com/hostilefork/r3-hf/wiki/StackOverflow-Chat-FAQ#wiki-ontopic)
[How do I specifically reply to another message?](https://github.com/hostilefork/r3-hf/wiki/StackOverflow-Chat-FAQ#wiki-reply)
[How do I 'do things' in chat?](https://github.com/hostilefork/r3-hf/wiki/StackOverflow-Chat-FAQ#wiki-features)
[Can I experiment with chat in a sandbox environment so I don't bother anyone?](https://github.com/hostil
 
0
A: What's the fastest/most efficient way to count lines in Rebol?

BrianHHere's the best simple non-parse version I can think of: count-lines: funct [text [string!]] [ i: 1 find-all text newline [++ i] i ] It uses funct and ++ from more recent versions of Rebol, and find-all from either R3 or R2/Forward. You could look at the source of find-all and inli...

 
6:46 PM
Links don't work, but good enough :)
@Feeds Yay, answer feed still working!
 
I also added some tips to the answer @MaxV wrote, so he can improve it. May the best approach win!
For short strings, MaxV's approach (changed to use deline/lines) might be the fastest in R3. For longer strings, the copy overhead might be a bit too much. In R2, deline was one of the R2/Forward functions so it will definitely be slower. But my answer won't work at all, so it's still an improvement :)
 
I guess I did put the burden on myself to benchmark it.
Hmm, I could ask another question: 'What's the most reliable way to benchmark a function in Rebol?'
 
7:01 PM
The find-all function is also in R2/Forward, but its semantics hadn't settled yet in R3 at the time of the last R2 release so it hadn't made it into R2 yet.
@rgchris Please do. And don't accept an answer unless it includes methods for R2 and R3. R3 added built-in profiler and timer functions, but there's a third-party timer for R2 that works really well (which I can't remember the link for).
 
7:20 PM
Asked. Not sure about the grammar of the question, but oh wells.
 
0
Q: How do I perform benchmark comparisons on a series of functions in Rebol?

rgchrisI recently enquired about the fastest/most efficient way to count newlines in Rebol—I now need to ascertain which approach is best in a given situation. Some example scenarios: Short Text, Fewer Newlines; Short Text, Many Newlines; Medium/Long Text, Many Newlines (Code); Medium/Long Text, Fewer ...

 
Should it be 'on' a series, or 'of' a series?
Never mind.
 
Whoever wrote tim-blk please answer! I'm not even assuming I spelled that right.
 
7:39 PM
Updated to include functions and R2&3 stipulation.
 
@earl - yes, just reload for updates rebol.atwebpages.com/scripts/prot-http.r
>> write clipboard:// ajoin [ 1 newline 2 newline 3 newline ] length? read/lines clipboard://
== 6
Should not read/lines convert the clipboard contents to a block of lines?
 
@GrahamChiu Well, yes. But read of urls is implemented separately for each scheme, and at the moment not very well for most schemes. Make a CC ticket about this please.
 
BTW, R2 behaves the same way
 
@GrahamChiu there you go, now you know it's buggy :-/
 
8:03 PM
Are CureCode tickets only readable as HTML?
(RSS doesn't have any content, just links and status messages)
 
Does anybody know if this issue is still present? rebol.net/wiki/TCP_Port_Open_Issue
 
@rgchris it doesn't matter. If you want something fixed, someone has to report it there. That is where we look for bugs. We don't put things in Github issues until there is actual code for proposed solutions that can be tested and discussed. We are trying to integrate CC's excellent issue tracking solution with Github's more polished but worse solution, but until we do you are just going to have to use CC first.
 
@BrianH doesn't answer my question—is there other views?
 
Not that I know of. @DocKimbel could answer better - he wrote CC. I know there is a Rebol-format API, though it does have a few problems at the moment (like using the Latin-1 encoding for its stuff without marking it as such). There is room for improvement.
 
8:20 PM
@rgchris are you thinking of creating a room with a CC issue feed? That would be nice.
 
Was thinking about it.
Not creating a room, as such, but what a feed might look like.
 
@BrianH Ok, created. I had to reinstall lastpass to recover my password :( And it still doesn't work with my Firefox
 
A room would be good - they don't cost anything. :-)
 
@Adrian I was hoping it'd be easier, but the HTML isn't XML-conformant, and the RSS feed has zero nutrition.
But, it still doesn't look like a lot of work.
 
Well, for now maybe the GitHub issues and pull requests might be good enough.
 
8:24 PM
We need a map of which resources are where.
Is R3 CC going to migrate to GitHub, or are they two different issue repositories? (is that what Earl/Fork were planning?)
 
@rgchris last I read it was going to be difficult because of the identities attached to tickets
 
@rgchris Two different repos for now, and likely to stay so for the rebol/r3 repository. We hope to set up a syncing thing with a community repo. We want to keep rebol/r3's issues limited to pull requests, so it will be useful for developers who can't check in regularly - we have one such developer already (Carl).
@GrahamChiu yes, that is a problem with syncing which we are hoping to get some help to solve. There is a lot of knowledge in CC, but a lot of it could be better understood if it has names attached. The comments are critical to get synced as well. Also edits and deletes.
 
8:39 PM
@rgchris Last I checked, this is the plan.
Thanks for sticking up for SO chat, guys. I know it's "not AltME" (or whatever) and it's not perfect, it's just for now, and it's better for many purposes.
 
One trick that would make CC easier to sync with Github would be to either have a compatible formatting language for tickets and comments, or a standard translation to a semantically comparable formatting language. On those annoying occasions where I've had to copy reply comments from one to the other, because I was having an argument with someone else who was doing the same, changing the formatting markup to be similar was extra annoying.
 
As @BrianH says: like why Twitter caught on like wildfire, and people started realizing form factor matters.
SO chat is ergonomic, AltME is not, we just have to get the dev discussions into GitHub issues, and that will happen in T minus some small digit days.
If they shut down stackoverflow chat we'll all have each other's skype info and make a room there, it's not really about the medium, it's about the consensus.
 
@HostileFork It's also much worse for many purposes, don't forget. We can't just settle on it, we have to put together a set of tools that does the whole job. Fortunately, where it is equally as bad as AltME, it is more obviously so, which provides us with extra incentive to move certain kinds of discussions elsewhere.
 
@BrianH No, we have to finish the freaking languages.
I'm not on board for building the perfect chat room issue tracking version control system.
Count... me... out.
 
@HostileFork which requires development and language design discussions, which should not be done either here or in AltME. At least here it's so bad for that that we are more likely to move those discussions somewhere else better, like CC and/or Github issues. That will have the side effect of making those discussions more effective.
 
8:47 PM
@BrianH GitHub issues, soon I hope. I boycott CureCode for the same reasons I boycott AltME.
 
@BrianH I don't think it's bad moving it to other places so much as moving it out of view. That's why a CC feed would be good—the discussion would be there, but could be digested here. Consolidation.
 
@HostileFork Goodbye. Github issues are polished crap. We have to use CC until we can retrofit Github with what we need. So for now, use it or be considered needlessly, unproductively obstructionist.
 
@BrianH As per Hans and Franz... "hear me now and believe me later"
I think we're on the cusp of a few cultural changes and that's okay.
 
That's not saying that CC can't be or doesn't need to be improved a little, such as a better RSS feed that can be better linked to here. We can improve CC faster than we can make Github issue tracking even slightly useful to us. And in the end, we're using both for different parts of the process, so making them work together will benefit all of us. And, @DocKimbel would benefit from a better CC too.
 
@BrianH Tell you what, if Doc exports Red issues to CC (and cuts off the GitHub issues) then I'll participate in CureCode. Deal?
@DocKimbel ---^
 
8:55 PM
@HostileFork don't kill our development progress to hold out for a cultural change. Let us work while we are also working towards cultural change.
 
@BrianH I think I gave a pretty decent metric, this is about not being blinded by your history...
 
@BrianH, what are the main problems you find with GitHub issues? We should have some sort of list so that we can spell out the advantages of one platform vs the other.
 
CureCode makes us look bad. @earl and I want to be able to walk up to serious developers, show them our project, and not have a website that has a "are you sure you want to resubmit?" when you go back after viewing tickets. They already have github accounts.
 
@HostileFork no deal. CC should also be able to participate in Github issues, just to compete as an issue tracker in modern times, and to be used in a project that is coordinating on Github. But for now almost all of our knowledge of what the bugs and proposals are for R3 is currently stored in CC, or in the heads of a few people. We can't afford to ignore that information or development will come to a screeching halt.
 
The polished "crap" is at least polished. I'm sure that there's essential beauty in CureCode somewhere that if I got into the right mindset I'd see it, but I kind of don't want to get in that mindset because part of what's going to bring vitality into this project is me being able to see things like a new person would see them.
I'm not colorblind. So I know that it's not the right place to have dev discussions.
Hello @graph, I see you have enough points to chat. :-)
Pardon our little dust up here.
 
9:02 PM
I am all for moving that information to somewhere more visible. But you have to keep in mind that we haven't done that yet. Don't require us to use tools that aren't even there. We can move there when there is a there to move to. At the moment there isn't. So don't boycott CC until it stops being stupid to do so.
@HostileFork You don't bring vitality to a project by killing it first. It's a better approach to let the people on the project keep doing what they're doing until your better solution is at least in the testing phase, or even exists at all. Only then do you migrate over.
 
@BrianH Granted. But I think it's going to just be a couple of days... when the repository is made, I'm going to move the wiki to it, and I assume the issues will be moved to it, and we're going to just move on with our lives.
In our perfect nanotech world, Carl would have implemented an awesome lightweight markup in AltME and it would have oneboxing and you'd only read what you wanted to read and there'd be flying cars driven by robots... and everyone would have their own Slurpee machine. But that's not the world we live in for the moment.
Is GitHub the droid we're looking for? No, guess not, by the same token.
But we've got to agree and we've got to move on with what's generally available, or no Slurpee machine for us.
 
You don't have your own Slurpee machine? Where've you been?
 
9:18 PM
@Adrian Indents, as @rgchris said. But you can only do that if your whole message is code. Quick way to apply indents, is to select the whole message (C-a) and then press C-k (Ctrl-k) to indent.
 
@rgchris I have one, but I keep it in the 7-11 across the street.
 
@earl, there are more ways, I've found. Added a section in the FAQ.
 
@HostileFork well, in a couple days (plus more time for testing) then you can boycott CC to your heart's content (sorry @DocKimbel, Fork will be Fork). Until then, promote the heck out of CC because new bugs are being found every day, and new proposals made, and we need to know about them. Don't kill the project in the name of "vitality", that's zombie talk! :)
 
@earl shift-enter to go to multi-line then click the fixed-font button (for those who can't be bothered to check the FAQ).
 
@Adrian Ah, cool. Never noticed the fixed-font button :)
 
9:38 PM
I'm not seeing a fixed font button here ...
 
@GrahamChiu It only appears on multiline messages. You have to shift-enter to get it... (or copy/paste something with newlines) Oh, I see that has been said. Well, if you're still not getting it, that's weird.
 
Quick and dirty script to 'load' a single CureCode page (R2-only): reb4.me/r/load-curecode
I'm doing other stuff for a while, suggestions welcome—just @ mention me.
 
@rgchris Have you seeen @Adrian's "community radar"? Does not cover the more development-oriented places, though.
 
@HostileFork Tell you what, if Doc exports Red issues to CC (and cuts off the GitHub issues) then I'll participate in CureCode. Deal? You're not taking much risks there. :-P
 
:7834945 ok, missed the part
about multiline messages to see the button
 
9:47 PM
@GrahamChiu The reply colon number needs to not be indented for the reply to work. It's weird.
 
You can manually add 4 spaces on a single line too.
 
@BrianH Are you forking CC? (Not a problem for me)
 
@DocKimbel :-) Hey, if you were working on it and @rgchris was making it pretty, I'd say go with it.
But as it stands, it is hurting development. It's time to move on.
 
@HostileFork yes thanks for the welcome- had to check out how stackoverflow implements a chat (looks great) and how the community turns out to be in that chat (also great so far)
 
@graph Well one of the big hopes here is that we can teach more people why Rebol is cool. It's a very different and (for the moment) "fringe" language. But it got open sourced in December so maybe we can widen the exposure...
@graph What's your favorite language, thus far?
 
10:02 PM
@DocKimbel nope, I'm just trying to give you some advice to make it better, based on having evaluated the issue tracker industry a bit recently (by "Fork" above I meant @HostileFork). I don't have time to fork CC, sorry. And even if I did, I would prefer to offer my changes back upstream. :)
 
@rebolek don't hesitate to ask, if you have any doubts; most, if not all, people in the French Rebol community speak English. And on a chat, you get rid of the French pronounciation. I'd be happy to help, if I can.
@Adrian oh well... That would make yet another place where Rebol matters are being discussed... I'm not sure it is a very good idea... And also, the forum at digicamsoft.com/cgi-bin/rebelBB.cgi is just very neat. Maybe not as sexy as here, but there are topics, and, when you revive a very old topic, it comes sorted at the top. Simple, but very efficient. And, last but not least, it is a Rebol tool...
In fact, it is much easier to follow a "conversation" in rebelBB.cgi than here in than SO chat
 
@pierre Totally different modes of interaction.
(And resulting from that, significantly different activity profiles.)
 
10:19 PM
@HostileFork yes, right; I was only referring to the SO chat - parsererror
(hm, I can't post any more here...)
ah, yes! it works now... (SO logged me out, apparently?)
@earl yes: so I do not think it is a big problem if these two places remain alive; as long as some connections are made, from time to time
 
@pierre I'd rather the other web forums voluntarily take themselves down. If there's going to be one "other" then it should probably stay being AltME, even though I hate it (personally).
But whatever...it's people's Skype/Gchat/etc. with some other features and it's written in Rebol...let it be.
 
Hm. AltMe is not so bad, but... I find it somehow frustrating...
@HostileFork actually, most WERE down. Or, more exactly, dead...
They are sometimes ressuscitating...
(Frenglish?...)
 
@pierre I'd rather see that energy spent scraping StackOverflow through the API so there's a backup.
With the RSS feeds (or the APIs powering them), the scrape can be kept up to date incrementally.
 
@Adrian Hm. No. Beware of google translations. Especially about some nuanced opinions...
@HostileFork "scraping" => ??
 
@pierre Probably not technically "web scraping" if you use an API like Stack's, but the term is used anyway.
But it's like Judge Judy used to say, don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining. I'm tired of the lack of common sense (some) Rebol people seem to have about the tools they use. They'll act like children if one git command doesn't do what they wanted and cry for mommy instead of using the damn internet to figure out what happened. They use unpopular tools with no documentation or APIs. It's TIME TO END THE INSANITY!!!
Where Rebol is awesome, let it be awesome. Let's showcase it. @rgchris is doing great at this right now.
We don't need things like this making us look completely insane.
I've got the insanity covered, in a meaningful sort of insane way. :-)
 
10:42 PM
@HostileFork Well, the design may not suit everybody's taste, but I found the idea interesting, though... I must admit that, as soon as I come into the Rebol world, I try to look only at the inside, ignoring all the decorations. Hm. Sorry. Can't express myself properly...
 
This is scraping: reb4.me/r/load-curecode
 
@pierre Well I think you have to look at both, it's not the same world as it was...and for technology to get momentum you have to see all the angles. Carl never really grasped this and how much rebol.com turned people off instantly.
 
Yes, you're right.
A few widgets in /view often make me want to puke...
 
"It looked fine to him"
 
Okay, I got the point of scraping; now, in which sense would you want to scrape SO? To get the code that sits behind this chat and reproduce it somewhere else?
 
10:46 PM
@pierre design != decoration, in this case—design is shaping communication. Something badly designed communicates poorly. Something well designed just communicates.
@pierre not trying to emphasise the point, trying to engage some recruits!
 
@rgchris Yes, got that. Both are visual, though.
 
@pierre I don't care about the chat, it's ephemeral, I just mean having a copy of the questions and answers somewhere that if StackOverflow went behind a paywall or did something else egregious that we all hope they don't do... we'd have the information.
 
Ah!
okay...
 
@pierre on the face of it, good visual communication goes beyond what you can see.
 
Sorry, I was out of Internet for a while, travelled a lot, and I have no idea of what happened or not in the Rebol/Red world
Oops, it is getting late here. Gentlemen, I whish you a good night.
 
10:53 PM
@pierre Thanks for stopping by. come back!
 
No need for scraping in this case.
 
Excellent. Still, I like my scraping example :P
 
Getting the data back onto Github is the fun part :)
@rgchris It is a nice (and pretty!) example indeed.
(Esp when I think about the ugly mess my Rebol scrapers usually become ...)
 
When XML fails, LOAD/MARKUP!!!
 
@rgchris or in R3; load/type source 'markup :)
It's a codec.
 
11:08 PM
@BrianH Indeed.
 
11:37 PM
I think {} looks better as empty string than ""
With double quotes, there's potential for confusion trying to tell if there's apostrophes in there or what it is exactly.
Also in mid sentence the "" just kind of "floats up in the air", it's not balanced...
Wonder if routines that take strings and have an empty string case (such as reword with its escaping character) might accept none and just do a quick if none? param [param: {}] ... it might make the calls look better.
 
@HostileFork in the case of reword, that makes sense, especially now that empty? takes none. We'd still have to treat the empty string case the same. I'll add it to the list. There are other functions that behave that way, so it won't be out of place. We can't just make it considered empty if it's none, since it is also none when the option is not specified at all. We have to have it be empty when the option is specified and it's still none.
 
@BrianH cool.
 
11:54 PM
As a general rule though, it has to depend on the circumstances. For functions like reword that build or process strings, there will be a lot of times when we might be able to consider the empty string and none to be equivalent. In cases where the distinction between an empty string and no value at all matters, we shouldn't.
That's just for strings though. For other datatypes, the distinction between a value and no value is too important. So, no considering none and 0 to be equivalent, ever.
 

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