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12:28 AM
As mentioned above I have no idea if this can be generalised to handle anything more than this basic page
 
@GrahamChiu My first impulse is to wonder if instead of paragraph and heading as word! if the dialect might use tag! <h1> and <p>
 
@earl command-line options override internal definitions - makes sense since they're the most 'immediate' way to specify them
 
Can use anything .. but we aim in dialects to make them use words
to make it speakable
 
I still feel we'd be better off if there was something that was a flat, boring clone of things like Django templating...something where the retraining would be minimal, but that threw in some Rebol magic sauce killer feature.
 
@earl CC and LS are what needs to be passed in and the CB project file includes these
 
12:39 AM
@HostileFork OMG .. templating language!
We already have RSP for templating .. used in Cheyenne, and Chris has his own version.
 
@GrahamChiu Your enthusiasm seems somehow insincere. :-) However, my point is that within the context of something that looks much like something someone knows, it makes it easier to absorb what Rebol is.
When people have become accustomed to something kind of lousy about a system, they just expect it. They say "I've learned to live with it".
But when you bring something new and amazing that doesn't have those defects, but appears to have some oddity that nothing they're used to has which is arguably inferior, they will have a "Better the devil that you know..." attitude.
 
Have you seen RSP pages?
 
My CC templates are RSP :) reb4.me/cc
 
You could deliver these pages as RSP as well ...
 
12:49 AM
@Adrian yes, of course. just didn't take into account that you also fix the recursive make calls, which is why they now get preserved properly :)
@Adrian ok, so CB should be fine with the generated makefiles if we just upstream the $(MAKE) change.
 
1:05 AM
@rgchris Nice .. can you fix my indenting at the same time? :)
 
Hello @SethRylan ... I see you've answered something regarding clinical data....
1
A: HL7 CDA Undefined clinical data

Seth RylanThe simplest way to produce a CDA-compliant document would be to create an account on Microsoft HealthVault, enter the supplied information, and export as a CCD (via menus: Health Information -> More Actions -> Export Information). This will give you a CDA-compliant XML document constrained by th...

 
I use CCR at present
Interesting way to produce a CDA document ... not sure it would go down well with the certifying agencies if you're passing clinical data to MS.
Next I guess is to see if I can do another page without breaking the first one. Perhaps I need to embed more hints into the template objects
 
1:29 AM
@HostileFork He probably thought we were going to stalk him.
 
@GrahamChiu what is the code for the shortest document you can make?
 
@rgchris in relation to what?
 
Well, you said you wanted it to be like VID, so what is your view [title "Hello!"]?
 
Oh, I see. Well, it's not like VID :)
The aim is to achieve VID like simplicity, and therefore limitations.
 
With Henrik's, it's this:
html [
    page "Hello!" [
        div /title "Hello!"
    ]
]
 
1:35 AM
but that's basically unusable
The aim is to target a predefined template that comes with all the scaffolding
such as css, js etc
but not have to enter those things
 
That's what he does.
Or where he doesn't, just hack the script!
Another alternative is to customise MakeDoc to use a Bootstrap template (also very reasonable in my mind).
 
template starter-template
assets %assets/
body [
container [
paragraph "hello world"
]
]
would be minimal ...
untested ...
so not much more than Henrik's ...
 
does henrik's dialect allow 1:1 mapping to html as well?
 
@earl yes, that should do it, though I would ask, why, if the most common build tools for Windows for which you are creating the makefile is mingw, does the make-make.r definition of CC and LS need to be overridden at all? Shouldn't these default to mingw32-cc and "cmd /c dir", respectively?
 
@Adrian LS is broken, CC is targeting mingw+msys
 
1:41 AM
so you're saying there gcc is just gcc and not mingw32-gcc and LS exists?
don't recall right now
 
with plain mingw, gcc is gcc, yes
and LS should be ls for mingw+msys
 
OK, np
so will you can make a pull request with the small change to make-make.r then?
once that's in we could put up the CB project
 
@earl I believe so, at least BODY elements.
I haven't used it all that much other than some initial evaluations.
 
@Adrian the $(MAKE)? ok, i can do that
 
1:49 AM
yes, that
at the rate Carl is merging, it might be a while
 
Some of the ideas—data-driven content, dialecting much of the HEAD (imo. the messy portion of HTML) are interesting.
 
@earl have you installed CB? I can send you the project file and you can double-check that it works without needing any additional changes, if you want.
 
@Adrian if you can upload it somewhere, i'll try it, yes.
@rgchris now why do i always get cannot parse script from reb4.me/cc :) ?
ah, well, because it is invalid :)
 
2:09 AM
I took off the 'attempt control, so you can see the error message...
 
@rgchris i'm basically looking for something like the following: bolka.at/2013/rebol3/html-sample.html
hmm, not yet a perfect transliteration.
 
What's missing?
 
a few content expressions are wrong
that should at least theoretically be implementable without major hacks.
 
2:47 AM
@Adrian there we go: github.com/rebol/r3/pull/77
 
thanks - sent you the file just now, at earl@gmx...
 
@Adrian thanks. it's a good and needed fix in any case :)
 
@earl I'd agree. I think you could play with set-words! and parens! to aid parsing, but should be acheiveable.
 
3:32 AM
@earl should there not be separate targets for debug and release in the makefile?
BrianH was asking about debugging R3 in CB earlier today, on AltME
 
Hello @Marv. We're chatting about Rebol, feel free to be chatty. Even "So what is it?" is a fine question. :-)
I think Rebol should switch over to the TeX versioning scheme: "(\LaTeX) is rather quirky, and not for everybody (but it should be). The original author of (\TeX), Donald Knuth, has been slowly working on it for 34 years now. When version 3 was released, a new versioning scheme was chosen. A new decimal digit would be added with each new release. The current version is (3.1415926), and upon Knuth’s death, the version number will be permanently fixed at (\pi)."
I also should probably buy the: Knuth is my homeboy shirt.
Actually I don't think that, because that would encourage Carl to continue with the "having the last word". But I still like the premise of software versions being irrational numbers, encourages rigor.
Anyway I was just looking to see how the Wikipedia Rebol page was doing, and noticed it didn't mention Rebol 3, and then realized it's because of the wonky numbering scheme. So it just says that 2.101.0 is Apache open source. Con-fus-ing to wait so long to bump the version number...either fix that or start calling it Rebol >2.8
 
 
1 hour later…
5:14 AM
@HostileFork did you write a UTF8 to Integer function for R3? I have one that works in R2 (Sanitize) but doesn't in R3.
do reb4.me/r/sanitize
sanitize dehex "%C3%A9%C2%A3%E2%80%94"
R2== "&#233;&#163;&#8212;"
R3== "&#233;&#163;&#2176;#(148)"
 
@HostileFork Good idea .. we should start again from 1.618
 
@rgchris Nope...all I've done is tinker on Red's lexer: integer-rule in lexer
 
though do we need to indicate different platforms?
Can't believe this ... but thunderbirds is being redone as a TV series across town.
 
@GrahamChiu I had the idea of using paths and not numbers, linux/arm etc, but it may imply a false hierarchy
 
@HostileFork and you can't do > <, needs etc
 
5:28 AM
@GrahamChiu Renewed interest from Team America: World Police.
@GrahamChiu Amiga is the least of the operating systems, then. :-)
 
@HostileFork TBirds were more like the Red Cross on jet fuel
@HostileFork Least, or primary?
 
From help < : Returns TRUE if the first value is less than the second value. emphasis mine
 
@HostileFork Eh? That's an attribute of Rebol .. less is more
 
Hehe
 
@HostileFork Never mind, should be easy: to-integer string/1
 
6:09 AM
Yey, Form Date works on R3—only minor cajoling!
 
 
4 hours later…
10:06 AM
@DocKimbel Remixed and remastered, in HD. :-)
 
10:20 AM
@GrahamChiu ...and in perfect focus. :-)
 
10:33 AM
@HostileFork Great work Brian! Thanks!
 
@DocKimbel I knew going to film school would come in handy somewhere. :-)
Turned out to actually require using video editing. I thought I could get away with a screencast where I just tapped along to a patched up audio track, which would take an hour in realtime. But it turns out that if the taps don't match pretty exactly to the clicks, then it has a distracting and uncanny feeling. Things worth doing are worth doing right...
Gave me a chance to further reflect on the whole plan, and I think it's a very good plan and more interesting than I first thought. Again, my big concern is how fast to self-host.
Repeating myself: Having a bootstrap up from ANSI-C is a more stable way of dealing with it, and defers Red needing to devote engineering energy for the sake of a feature which is not 'user-facing' in any way besides performance. Red will also benefit from having an open-sourced ANSI-C "variant" that exists out there when someone needs it.
But this means throwing out Rebol 2 and running stable on some Rebol-3 derived codebase...as well as having a standards-committee mindset to make sure the best decisions are made for the shared data representation used by both. The more the systems have in common the more synergy, and it's best if the forks are reigned in with community organizing.
not 'user-facing' in any way besides performance meaning performance of the compilation process itself, of course...which only happens on the developer's machines...and they're usually fast and have lots of memory. Also it can be sped up with a parallelized make process invoking multiple interpreters, or targeting performance enhancements in Rebol 3 for areas specifically important to how Red is written.
 
11:08 AM
"Again, my big concern is how fast to self-host." That is indeed a key part of the whole roadmap. It is more important that you think, because it also implies a re-design of the whole toolchain internals with the addition of the optimizing layers and missing low-level features in the current implementation (like ARM Thumb instruction set support, read-only data segments support, shorter generated native code, ...).
The self-hosting stage could be done faster than the current bootstrapping phase, because we'll have a designed language with an already working implementation and a broad tests suite.
Also, having Red self-hosted doesn't preclude any cooperation with R3 or R3's forks in any way. We can still work on a common set of parsing rules for the syntax in order to make same data loadable from all REBOL derivatives.
Also, some parts, like some devices or console could be done with all REBOL derivatives in mind (so implemented in C, Red/System and maybe even JS).
 
@DocKimbel Well I'll keep an open mind and follow the details of what-needs-what, but my sense is still that there are probably quite a lot of other things to do, and that perhaps what is needed is more "proof of concept" research on what you describe to make sure things are on the right track...while the Rebol / Red family stabilizes common runtime behaviors and the data format to be the best.
Taking advantage of the common energy first in doing definitions of the runtime and getting things all laid out keeps everyone together, the issues are in both projects. Worrying about the number of bytes in the EXE or micro optimizations is nice too but having a plan for how to do it is probably more important than doing it before the runtime has really matured.
 
Having same semantics between Rebol / Red for same natives/actions would be nice, but I'm not sure it's 100% achievable. We might hit some different visions of how some core parts should work (like the 1-based vs 0-based topic). Anyway, making them as close as possible for core features would certainly be a good thing for all users.
@HostileFork "Worrying about the number of bytes in the EXE or micro optimizations..." Actually, I'm worrying about significant issues only, the size of EXE does matter on mobile devices, support of Thumb + shorter native code could divide compiled EXE on ARM by a factor of two. You can easily feel the difference when you have to pay for each bytes downloaded on your mobile device.
Anyway, there are other even more important concerns, like properly documenting Red and this is a field where I would like to see more common work done with Rebol, in order to avoid duplicating (very costly) efforts.
 
11:27 AM
@DocKimbel Yes. Well if we all can agree the same exchange format must be used then that's a good place to start. The subcommittee needs to be formed and begin collecting a list of issues, and it's one of the most prominent examples of things I would prioritize as being a pre-bootstrapping issue. I just think there are many of these, and there is not harm in Red being hardened as a Rebol 3 codebase for longer...helps both projects.
Refactoring the Red code in ways that make it smaller and more elegant through internal dialecting and other organizational endeavors can also be more worthwhile than jumping straight to trying to write Red in Red, as well as making the Red-in-Red transition easier.
 
As long as the Red codebase can also work normally on R2, I see no problem in supporting R3 also. I might need to encap Red compiler sooner than expected, so with R2, I have the tool for that, for R3, there is still no public solution.
@HostileFork "Refactoring the Red code in ways that make it smaller and more elegant through internal dialecting..." Just keep in mind that they are two parts in Red: (a) the compiler that will need to be rewritten in Red, (b) the runtime part in Red/System that will be unaffected by the self-hosting stage, so it can be optimized, refactored and improved for the Red v1.0 as soon as it is stable enough (that state will be reached once objects and ports will be added).
 
@DocKimbel Well I want encapping for Rebmu :-) and I'm sure there are other people wanting it so I'd be surprised if it took too long to get. Sounds good to raise the priority.
 
12:15 PM
@earl Do my eyes deceive me, or do you have write access to the r3 main trunk now!?!
 
delete that
:)
 
Too late (e.g. my remarks may only be deleted for 2 minutes) But it's on your commit comments now.
 
i know :)
which is why i wanted you to add the comment i mentioned earlier :)
 
We can talk about a bunch of other stuff and make it scroll off the screen. How's your day?
 
probably need a separate user for commenting :)
i have and always had, because i originally helped carl get started with github
 
12:20 PM
Ah.
Oh well.
 
so it's nothing new or no special endorsement.
which is why i don't particularly feel like arguing about it or explaining it :)
i talked with carl about it shortly before the source was published and told him how to revoke it. he didn't, but neither did we agree on anything in particular i should or should not do, so i just don't use it at all, at the moment.
and that's that.
however, i have a strong dislike of change for the sake of change, so i just had to add the comment :)
hah! if i do not comment in-line but rather in a plain comment, no badge is added :)
 
12:35 PM
I'm rather fond of commenting-on-the-lines-of-the-diffs.
 
Yes, it's a great feature.
Esp because the comments "vanish" out of sight after the discussed lines are changed.
 
So I finished the Red video remastering. I had to ask Google for the ability to upload videos for longer than 15 minutes by providing it a phone number, but that worked. Which is good.
 
@rgchris very nice! the version as is online at the moment works (just distracted by the 2007 latest changelog item)?
 
12:52 PM
@HostileFork Thanks for that. Watched the first 10 minutes so far, very watchable. Really should have been captured that way in the first place.
 
@earl Yup. :-)
 
KK.
1:40 PM
Hello all
@HostileFork I understand what you are saying. I am sorry, I think I got overboard.
I apologize if something all of it hurt you
I got too emotional without any reason.
 
@KK. Enthusiasm is good, but lots in the language to learn first! One needs to have good answers to "why should I use this language" other than "some neat people use it" :-)
 
KK.
@HostileFork Yes. Thats what I learned yesterday.
 
No worries! Check out the Red Video if you want to have an explanation of some matters from the point of view of the project leader of Red...
 
KK.
To add to it, yesterday was the 180th day of my 6-month per-paid internet plan, and I got very stressed thinking what you and others thought of what I said. The internet got disconnected just after what I may call a blunderous post.
Checked out the transcript just now.
@HostileFork My internet is a bit on the slower side, and I am downloading the video. So I will watch it in an hour or two when it downloads.
 
@KK. Relax! Talk to us about your progress on the tutorials and code questions, that's probably the easiest way to worry less.
 
KK.
1:51 PM
Ok. I think getting the code for any function by ` source rebol-func ` is a great thing.
The number of data types is amazing.
 
@KK. It won't give you the code for so-called NATIVE! functions, because they are written in C inside the interpeter...but it will give you the interface specification of that function. Try for instance source print
 
KK.
@HostileFork Yes. It gave the comment/documentation string for print and told me it was native.
 
Notice that in the function specification dialect, the appearance of strings is used to give you information that the system processes with HELP. So if you say:
>> printint: func ["Prints an integer" value [integer!] "The integer to print"] [print value]

>> help printint
USAGE:
PRINTINT value

DESCRIPTION:
Prints an integer
PRINTINT is a function value.

ARGUMENTS:
value -- The integer to print (integer!)
Where the string appears in the function specification dialect is used to determine what part of the documentation it is. If it's at the beginning it describes what the function does, if it's after a parameter description then it describes the parameter.
Note that above the types inside the function specification block are: string! ("Prints an integer"), word! (value) block! (containing itself one item...the word! integer!), and then finally another string! ("The integer to print").
 
KK.
@HostileFork Is your health fine?
 
@KK. Feeling better today. Just had a bit of pressure in the eyes and head that was making it hard to concentrate for the last week. Don't worry about that either. :-)
But if you see from this function specification dialect, the power of Rebol (and more generally Lisp family languages) is this big fluidity you get when code is natively contained in a data structure that the language uses for its processing.
 
KK.
2:09 PM
@HostileFork Yes, I have read about it, but I have no idea in what way I or someone else can use it. Maybe later, when I learn more and when I work on complex projects I can use it.
 
@KK. Well one thing it is good for is capturing patterns in your code, because you can write code that makes code. Where in another language there is no way to get 100 functions that are very similar without sitting down and writing 100 functions, in a language like Rebol you can automate it.
 
KK.
Ok. Maybe if I have 5 different functions to write data to 5 different tables in a database, and they are not as alike that I can simply change arguments, then in such a case I could use code as data. Not too sure, though.
 
This may look a little weird, but for instance:
>> spec: [rejoin [{Prints value of type } (typename)] 'value quote [(type)] rejoin [{The } (typename) { to print.}]]

>> type: integer!

>> typename: "Integer"

>> intspec: reduce compose/deep spec
== ["Prints value of type Integer" value [integer!] "The Integer to print."]

>> type: string!

>> typename: "String"

>> stringspec: reduce compose/deep spec
== ["Prints value of type String" value [integer!] "The String to print."]
That's just offhand, not the most convenient example. Just trying to show you that you can make templates for things like the structure of a function definition. The "compose" dialect has a special use of PAREN! to call out parts in a structure to evaluate while leaving the rest untouched.
@KK. One of the best uses of types is because they are abstract and can be used for anything in dialects. It's nice that they are all built in...but most languages have class libraries or packages where you can install data classes, so someone could argue "well, I'll just install the standard types we use in the language, it's easy. our language has some functions yours doesn't, what's the big deal?"
The fact that parsing for these data types is built-in to the data format...that's the big trick. Many languages have data types for strings, dates, or even HTML dom elements. Yet in Rebol, you can get the type? of a language "keywords"...or the type? of parenthesized lists of items...just like the type? of something that is a date or string.
 
KK.
2:36 PM
I did not get in Rebol, you can get the type? of a language "keywords"...or the type? of parenthesized lists of items...just like the type? of something that is a date or string.
Ok. I think I understand.
a: "I am KK."
>> type? a
== string!
>> type? string!
== datatype!
So, a is a string!, and the thing "string!" is in itself a type
 
This is going to be a little confusing, because you have to remember that when something is not in a BLOCK! Rebol will evaluate it. If it is in a block it is not alive until you "wake it up" somehow.
>> print "I am KK."
I am KK.

>> code: [print "I am KK."]

>> do code
I am KK.
The print in the second did not run because it was inside a block. But we "woke it up" later with DO, and it ran
Another way to make something "stay asleep" is to use quote. So quote foo is the same as first [foo] because it is like picking something out of a block that is not "awake".
When you said type? a it said it was a string, because the a was in an evaluated context, so you got the answer of the result of that evaluation. It's equivalent to saying type? do [a]
If you want to know what the type of a itself is, instead of the type of what it evaluates to... then you need to keep it asleep. type? quote a will tell you that in this case, the a itself is a word!
 
KK.
I printed it exactly first:- type? quote a instead of type'a
Yes, the a itself is a word!
@HostileFork can I take the talk off-topic?
 
And similarly, type? quote string! is also going to point out that string!, in and of itself, is a word. But it is looked up to something that looks similar but is not...string! the datatype.
@KK. If no one else is talking, sure. :-)
 
KK.
Yesterday, I did not get the chance to continue talking about the movie Moon.
 
@KK. And then your Internet was cut off. :-)
 
KK.
2:50 PM
I did not understand the movie as such. Maybe that was because almost all most Bollywood movies have happy endings, and this one had an uncertain kind of ending. What I liked though, were individual scenes.
@HostileFork Yes. :-)
(Someone just went off the room, I guess we are boring others)
 
@KK. I think we just reboot our computers and browsers a lot. :-)
 
KK.
There is a scene in which the two Sams talk about how they met Tess, both saying and then I said , she just said lets have beer etc.
The imagination in clones in that scene was amazing.
Also, I felt bad about the fact that (in the movie), clones and even Gerty showed feelings/emotions or knew what was right or wrong, but humans (Lunar corp) simply did the opposite.
Ironic role reversal (if I am expressing myself right)
@HostileFork lets hope its that
 
Well, it's a memory implant, they're supposed to have identical memories to the original Sam...despite not having been actually been there. You could argue that if the technology existed to do so, Lunar would have erased anything in the memory that wasn't related to the work that needed to be done by a human on the base. They would rather have a machine, but there were (ostensibly) some things that only a human could physically do. Or a human was cheaper.
 
KK.
Yes, but it is a movie, so they will just solely focus on one (or a few) aspect(s), and leave the rest.
 
Which is still somehow true at Foxconn or other (worse) places. So it is not so far fetched.
 
KK.
2:57 PM
Especially since it is set in the future and all aspects can't be known beforehand, the same way new kinds of buildings or software etc crash.
@HostileFork I don't know what Foxconn is. Looking it up right now.
 
Well some of the unknowns are what helped Sam with respect to Gerty. He was presumably made by some engineers who did not know this was going to be done with the technology. So they made an AI that had a genuine sense of wanting to help, even though it had some programming put in giving orders for him to obey.
And while we don't entirely understand the reason that deciding the mission to "help Sam" overrode the other orders, it's presumably in some unanticipated logic deep in the engineering of the system that was unknown to the people at Lunar who wanted otherwise.
 
KK.
I had not thought of it this way, but the scene when the "new" Sam is ready to leave for earth and Gerty warns him that people at Lunar could have read his (Gerty's) memory makes me believe what you think.
 
There is a funny scene at the end of RoboCop where the RoboCop can't take out the bad guy because he's put in an order that he can't harm any executives of the robotics corporation. But the scene unfolds in a boardroom where someone higher ranking than the evil guy figures out what has happened and yells at the guy "You're fired!"
Then the RoboCop says "Thank you" and kills the guy. :-)
 
KK.
:-), I have only seen Robocop the cartoon. :-)
Have you seen the movie 21 ?
It is the only other movie I have seen with Kevin Spacey.
 
@KK. Nope, haven't seen that one. He's good. I'd suggest others he's in but maybe programming-related movies are a more apropos off-topic. :-)
 
KK.
3:08 PM
Ok.
@HostileFork I take it you meant appropriate
 
@KK. It's a synonym, just a shorter and more obscure word. Pronounced APP-ROW-POE
 
KK.
You started programming at home?
 
Yes, on an Osborne 1. It had two disk drives, and both were twice the size of the monitor. :-)
 
KK.
I am asking because I want to know the difference between western and Indian programmers and I think it seeps in right from the beginning.
I started in college. My parents thought "Computer Science" was a good thing since it was getting good employment.
@HostileFork [Again off-topic] At that time (70s/80s), were there a lot of Computer companies, out of which only Apple survives in the mainstream. (Assuming microsoft is only an OS company)
 
@KK. You'll get a skewed impression from the Rebol crowd. I don't know. There does seem to be a big difference (to me) between anyone who started on their own and people who made the decision later.
 
KK.
3:15 PM
@HostileFork The Rebol crowd is the only crowd that is willing to talk to strangers/noobs, so be it.
 
There's an advantage to learning in college if you get a higher education, because you are introduced to more formalism. Some people who learn on their own pick up certain habits and don't learn when to step back and really get rigorous about proving code or a system correct.
 
KK.
(I don't think I should talk about "Rebol", or the "Crowd" etc. since ... yesterday.)
@HostileFork The only advantage IMHO is that you get teachers to guide you and other students to measure yourself against.
 
I think undergraduate computer science education can sometimes have many of the same problems, because it takes a long time just to get started writing anything at all. People spend so much time just fighting with the tools...why isn't the compiler finding the file, did I use the right command line flag, etc.
 
KK.
Yes, and by the time people start to understand things, college's over.
Do you have a non-programming day job?
 
So this is an advantage of Rebol because it is self contained and is a nice playground for messing with all kinds of paradigms. If you are in a survey course otherwise, you will have to go to many different languages to see all the programming styles and ideas. It's too bad that it didn't get a foothold in academia, but being closed source was another block there. College language teachers didn't want to push proprietary software.
@KK. At the moment, I just stay home and tinker on Rebol and Red, edit videos, and do tiny bits of work on my own non-Rebol code (and chat, of course)
 
KK.
3:24 PM
I remember you telling me that you worked less and lived less expensively, but I thought that you worked a 3 or 4 day week instead of the normal 5 or 6 day week.
Hello @dt2
 
dt2
Hello @kk & @fork
 
@KK. No, I worked for a month recently and it paid for a couple months of bills, and I have some savings otherwise.
 
KK.
@HostileFork Thats cool. Here in India, we are more concerned about working more and saving more.
 
Right now is an important time in my opinion to set some groundwork for Rebol and/or Red, it's just a matter of figuring a few things out to see how to create a momentum so it gets a bit of a life of its own. Right now it's hard to contribute, there's slow integration on the master of Rebol... Red is faster but the barrier to being able to contribute is higher.
 
KK.
Red is faster in terms of speed or in terms of the development of the language?
I have not been able to understand one thing. How come Rebol/View is just under 1 MB binary, and Rebol/Core is just about 600 KB, when other languages are at least a few MBs? I am truly surprised by this fact.
 
3:40 PM
@KK. There's nothing particularly amazing about the code, it just implements the design, and the design allows for a certain kind of reuse of the common structures of the language.
 
KK.
@HostileFork Maybe not amazing to you, but believe me I am surprised.
>> a: add "rebol" "red"
** Script Error: add expected value1 argument of type: number pair char money dat
e time tuple
** Near: a: add "rebol" "red"
@HostileFork The above error says that addition can only take place for a few datatypes, which are noted in the error message. And looking at the code for add makes it a bit clear.
>> source add
add: native [
"Returns the result of adding two values."
value1 [number! pair! char! money! date! time! tuple!]
value2 [number! pair! char! money! date! time! tuple!]
 
4
Q: What languages or methods allow graphics & music demos to fit in 64kb EXEs?

SynxmaxHow is it possible that in a 64kb compiled exe, these programs can generate such crazy visuals, complete with matching music? An example: Ars Nova By Phantom Lord (YouTube video of the demo running) This program's only 4kb in size! How did they do that? Are they using some sorts of pre-existi...

@KK. Note that string is not in that list of accepted types. You want append which works for series types. Add is the mathematical operation.
 
KK.
yes, thats why I did not ask about why string could not be concatenated. I did not know about append, I was just getting mildly surprised why strings could not be added
 
@earl I'm terrible at doing changelogs. Very bad habit. The only issue was first pair returns a decimal instead of an integer. Only affected the ISO dates.
 
KK.
Hello @jc.
@HostileFork you here?
 
3:56 PM
@KK. What languages add strings? What is the semantics or meaning you would have in mind?
 
KK.
Like in python.
>>> "karunesh" + "kaushal"
'karuneshkaushal'
 
Hello @jc. I upvoted your Postgresql answer so you should, theoretically be able to talk in the room. :-)
 
KK.
@HostileFork thats why I was calling you.
@jc. 's chat page still shows a rep of 1
 
@KK. Well, that's saying that in the case of string, Python's designers felt because addition was meaningless on strings, they felt it would be a syntactic nicety to let people use it to mean append.
But the nice thing about Rebol is, if you really want to, you can rethink this kind of decision.
It's a little trickier for plus, and I'd have to look how and if it can be done, but let's say you're worried about add
>> oldadd: :add

>> add: func [value1 value2] [either (string! = type? value1) and (string! = typ
e? value2) [append value1 value2] [oldadd value1 value2]]

>> add "abc" "def"
== "abcdef"
So add is a word!, and when that word is in an evaluative context ("alive", as I put it) then it looks up a system native for doing addition on various types, but not string.
 
KK.
>> add-string: func [string1 string2] [
[ string3: append string1 string2
[ return string3
[ ]
 
4:09 PM
Here I used a get-word! (beginning with a colon) to get the thing add points to without calling the add function, and saved it under the word oldadd.
Then I made add point to a new function that decides whether to call append if both value1 and value2 are strings... or to call the old add if they are not.
 
KK.
I just saw your solution now, and I think my solution looks like c/cpp/java kind of code in rebol.
 
But note this issue:
>> x: "foo"
== "foo"

>> y: "bar"
== "bar"

>> append x y
== "foobar"

>> x
== "foobar"

>> append x y
== "foobarbar"
By default, Rebol doesn't like to copy things. Because it's slow. So many functions modify their arguments. In this case, append will modify the first input. If you want to avoid that you have to do append copy x y. But note this is equivalent to append (copy x) y
 
KK.
@HostileFork Need to go. I will not be at my computer for about 5-10 mins starting now.
 
It may seem like it takes psychic powers to know where the "invisible parentheses" are, but once you get good at reading it you may find it very aesthetically pleasing. Or you might hate it...some people can never get over it. You can use parentheses if you want but Rebol programmers tend to think they are messy looking, and like to save them for other purposes.
That's fine, I need to get back to some stuff. But keep going through the tutorials and asking questions. It would be cool if you started a blog about these issues, perhaps even in Hindi for more international exposure...
 
KK.
@HostileFork It sure seems so. But I hope I can get over my fear of no parenthesis.
@HostileFork I will discuss Hindi and Indians' opinions in some Indian room tomorrow in Indian office hours. (like maybe this room)
I will try to start and keep up a blog.
 
4:25 PM
@KK. Always good to keep notes on what you're doing, for yourself when you forget later even if no one else reads it...!
 
KK.
@HostileFork Good thought. I think I should not blog about rebol proper (with code samples and all) until I learn it properly (that is, my code looks like your code). Presently, I think all that I can blog about is the overall feeling of using Rebol.
 
@KK. Do you have any Python code of your own, or perhaps an old school project, or something that you might try doing a comparison of methods with? Even just for parts...single functions, etc, not necessarily the whole thing.
 
KK.
I tried solving some project euler problems with python.
I think I can try solving will solve those and further problems in rebol.
 
@KK. Sure, why not one of them you already solved in Python, that way you can see some of the differences that are possible.
 
4:42 PM
@rgchris Ok. form-date is one of the functions I'd really like to see bundled with the standard builds. I need it all the time :)
 
It's near essential—so many date formats out there. I just wish I had a good one going in the other direction.
I picked up these date samples somewhere (can't remember where) with a view to doing that.
 
4:57 PM
would be great to have, yes. solid base for unit tests :)
 
5:13 PM
So you can't make your own infix operators, right? Anyone looked into what exactly makes this hard?
Or is not hard, just feared to produce confusion?
 
I think it should be possible with R3, just not implemented/buggy at the moment.
>> +: make op! [[x y] [42]]
>> 10 + 20
Segmentation fault (core dumped)
 
Cool. (Well not cool that it crashes, but cool that it's in the plan.)
 
5:47 PM
Heya @BrianH
 
Ops redirect to other functions (that's how they're evaluated), so if you were going to have a make op! it would have to take as its argument the other function, not any code body.
 
@BrianH What would be an example?
 
There is an OP function that can create ops, but it is unset after startup, I think because it has to be used carefully. I don't know whether ops are limited to redirecting to actions, like they were in R2, but if any type of function would have been added it would have been just natives. Ops can't redirect to Rebol functions or commands yet.
 
@BrianH It will be nice to be able to do it, if only to quiet people who are unhappy that + can't be used to append strings...whether they actually should do it at least you can say "well, you could..."
 
It is unlikely that the make action of ops will be implemented without a whole lot of security and stability screening being added to the op creation process. The reason op creation is done with the OP function rather than MAKE is because you can unset 'op, but you can't unset 'make.
 
5:59 PM
@BrianH You are probably familiar with Nomic. Is there a document laid out about the rationale for the layering of mutability and immutability, and how much of that is in the interpreter kernel...how much in the mezzanine...how much is there with defaults to keep you from shooting yourself in the foot but you can disable the protection?
I'm not sure what aspect of "security" would be particular to an op! beyond the "shooting yourself in the foot" type.
 
As for why you can't use + to join strings, it's because that is only efficient in languages that compile their concatenation expressions into calls to an internal concatenation function (the equivalent of one of the join functions). Since Rebol isn't compiled, it can't make that change itself.
This would mean that in an expression like "a" + "b" + "c", each call to + would be a separate concatenation. It doesn't matter what the op would be called, just being an done with an op at all makes concatenation inherently inefficient. That is why we deliberately rejected adding a concatenation op - there was a blog and a CureCode ticket about this.
Instead, we added AJOIN. Use it!
 
>> rejoin ['a/b 'c/d]
== a/b/c/d

>> ajoin ['a/b 'c/d]
== "a/bc/d"
 
Most of the time I have to concatenate strings. For that, AJOIN is faster.
 
Have there been any "unparsing" dialects? The sort of thing where saying like [3 "a"] would get you "aaa", for example?
 
6:16 PM
Don't know. Most people seem to use functions for that kind of thing.
 
Well I just mention that as being more in the spirit of formalism, where the dialect would be more about how the types were used to cue a behavior as opposed to stringing them. I just hit that R2 drops the exclamation point when forming types while R3 keeps it, and I'm just reminded of how I feel it's got some nebulousness to it when often the exact strings in the character matter.
 
Security: We've heard of it. I've been working on improving R3's security, but the model for mutability/immutability needs a rethink at the moment. The current PROTECT model doesn't really have all the features it needs to be useful, and the way it's specified would be unacceptably difficult if those features would be added. And the whole thing is related to the task model in ways that haven't really been thought through yet. It's the biggest pre-3.0 problem we have.
 
We've discussed it before. I have a clearer picture now but still I feel like the results are unexpected when I go that route, so I'm very hesitant...because I can't say form [4chan is silly] I get uncomfortable saying form [Twitter is silly]
By analogy, all the "Oh, it's some crazy thing? A lit path? I'll assume you meant that and just keep churning" situations worry me. I get bit sometimes also by things like the R2 dropping the ! off the end of datatypes and R3 leaving it there.
 
In general, it's not a good idea to use words for general purpose data. There are specific cases where using words makes sense, but for most data you're better off using strings. In the other hand, for most code you're better using words instead of strings. It depends of what you're trying to accomplish.
 
Right, and that's why I get nervous when it's an accident, and you're trying to pass some variable but it contains a word when it's supposed to be something else, and there's no error it just makes something weird
>> a: [print "Hello World"]

>> ajoin [a/1 "hello"] ;-- I'm new, I think Rebol indexes start at 0
== "printhello"
Add layer of abstraction or two and you've got a puzzle on your hands for any new user.
 
6:30 PM
Good policy: Errors are your friends! Add typespecs to your functions so you can count on the function call erroring out before you rely on the data. Add asserts or parse statements where needed to verify that things are what you expect. Make sure that your code can't continue if it's not what you expect. That way, the code you write afterwards can make the assumptions that it needs to, and if things aren't what you expect it will get caught so you can fix things.
That is why we improved type testing in R3, added ASSERT, and made it a point to make some bad ideas impossible by removing some types from the argument specs of some functions.
 
@BrianH That is a way of looking at it, and good. But I think that it's a lot to ask of someone new who's trying a first project. It's kind of like how I put parentheses in early tutorials to call out the groupings before the language instinct kicks in and then gradually show when taking off the training wheels has benefits.
 
That's the thing: We tried making the language for the newbies with R1 and R2. It didn't work. People are only newbies for a short time, and newbies tend to not know enough to be able to choose a language, even one that is made for them. And as it turned out, Rebol was actually more attractive to power users. With R3, we changed the aim of the language, making it now more suitable for the kinds of people who our users actually are. There was a blog about this, and IIRC you commented on it.
 
But this comes back to an emphasis shift that I think is important which is to stop having people equating "The 'DO' dialect" and "The Rebol language". "We're going to teach you Rebol now, here it is: mold rejoin append x: back copy thru at first data/1 y: 40 print {wtf?}"
I think that the usefulness of Rebol dialects that aren't the DO dialect can be--and should be--the big growth sector for the language, driving demand and interest.
With that demand, more good things going on for the experts.
 
6:48 PM
Sure, that is definitely one of our strengths. Dialects are cool. The tricky part is making dialects that are appropriate to use. Too often we've seen people propose dialects to do low-level things, but aren't implemented in a low enough level way, so using them makes your code less efficient than doing it without a dialect. And a badly designed dialect can be harder to use than the function equivalent. Dialects are a great selling point, but not always the best approach.
On the other hand, well designed functional dialects can be really efficient.
 
Well, hopefully it will get easier with the open source marketing buzz to build some interesting things and see if they take off. Any idea about the encapping for R3?
 
Saphiron has a method that works for their apps. I haven't reviewed it yet.
 
Well, that seems pretty important. Even in the current state, Rebol 3 can do quite a bit. I propose a little bit of meddling by going and finding some relatively simple tool that's being used by a fair # of people. Implement 100% of that tool's existing functionality...and be on more platforms...and not be much (if any) larger in distributable size.
Use a little bit of Rebol magic to throw in a couple of seemingly amazing features. Tell them it's based on open source and see if people can get hooked.
My argument to @DocKimbel is that having an ANSI-C based parser-level compatible Red-like language is good for insinuating in these systems, because people go "oh, I get this, not scary." And Red is cool but when you tell people it's open source but they look on GitHub and it looks like a moon language, they won't feel the faith that they could either find someone to patch it (or do it themselves).
 
7:09 PM
Agreed on the importance. At my current job encapping would be counter-productive, so we haven't focused on making it better. Once I'm done writing the unit tests for modules, I really should make sure Ladislav's include stuff is more module-friendly - that's the main improvement I could make to their encap right now.
 
I think for momentum it really is at a stage where Rebol will have to be proactive. Getting on alternative OSes like HaikuOS, WebOS, etc...taking a little time to make some friends who will come back and do favors. Maybe the favor will not be hacking on the sources themselves, but maybe creating buzz or little paid tasks to solve some problems using Rebol.
We are now at a time where open source projects are graphed out and you can see what's trending and what the source code is, like explore GitHub. You can know when something is popular, look at it, and go "hey, there might be a better way. If there's low-hanging fruit, build a better mousetrap and see what happens.
Welcome back @KamilTomšík
 
Right now I'm focused on catching up. There are a lot of bugs I've been waiting to get fixed, that I can (hypothetically) fix myself now. It's tough for me to work on alternative OS's because I actually do most of my work on Windows, which is already supported for the most part. Glad to help others who are using the alternates though, and the buzz would be nice. Improving Windows support helps too because it's what people actually run for work.
 
hello :)
 
7:25 PM
Most of what I'm working on is cross-platform, same as before.
 
@KamilTomšík I "digitally remastered" a presentation on Red last night, it's fairly interesting if you want to watch...
@BrianH Well I told @GrahamChiu I'd take a crack at the WebOS port. @earl was working on FreeBSD.
 
@HostileFork will have a look, thanks!
 
@HostileFork, glad that others are working on the platform stuff. That frees me to work on core language bugs :)
 
@BrianH You're quite familiar with C, right?
 
Yes, though I don't have to use it that often nowadays, only when debugging the implementations of other languages like Rebol.
Not well enough to debug it without an IDE, it appears. Too bad, used to be able to.
 
7:41 PM
@BrianH Yeah it's a pain, especially if the VM you're working in doesn't have host tools like the clipboard etc. :-/
 
@HostileFork Still, I usually don't have to run code to determine why it's crashing. A read-through is usually sufficient. The IDE helps me trace references, which makes the read-through easier.
 
@HostileFork can't you use remote debugging for the limited platforms?
 
@Adrian Command line GDB and the ability to invasively modify the source temporarily for additional logic and tests has worked so far.
 
8:05 PM
In completely unrelated news, I just found out humans do not smell in stereo. Unless your nose is physically irritated by a scent or by actively being blown with air, you cannot tell which nostril a smell is being fed into through a tube if you are blindfolded.
 
@HostileFork Can we fix that with a dialect?
 
@BrianH I already can detect code smell in dolby 7.1 and higher. :-)
 
8:28 PM
@HostileFork Interesting link. There are a few smells that you'd add for Rebol, like too-small function, or unnecessary dialect :)
 
@BrianH Speaking of too-small function, pun intended, lately I've been wondering about these hyphenated TO things. to-integer and such. It sort of encourages not to go with the words separated by spaces, and seems superfluous. Red uses to integer! and to string! etc.
Discourages new people from understanding they could abstract and use TO. I think it took me a while to find out TO existed to be parameterized with an arbitrary type.
There's a weird thing I saw in Red where it was using underscores and positional references to replace them in the loader. This was for a parse rule generated by code. I looked at it and thought "well that doesn't look right". And I was having trouble with it anyway, so I figured I'd find a better way.
You've got compose, but then you've got the desire to fill slots that are inside of parentheses. You could make up placeholder names and then replace them, but there's no replace/deep and also you may run the risk that if you're doing generative things and dropping stuff into slots (like arbitrary expressions) then perhaps that arbitrary expression would pick the same placeholder name.
It feels like photolithography or some kind of stenciling and etching process, where solutions would involve having several phases, so the positional solution gets picked despite its bad invariants.
 
8:54 PM
@HostileFork Aside from saving one character (trivial), adding overhead (less trivial), and not even existing when the lower-level mezzanine code is being defined (significant), the main advantage to the TO-* functions is that you can assign them to other words and pass them as parameters when you need parameterized conversion or some such. They're mostly there for backwards compatibility though.
There are other builder dialects that do things like what you are asking. Third-party stuff, but pretty solid.
 
9:18 PM
Just the general law of escaping...the fewer symbolic structures in your in-band domain that are kept reserved for "meta" uses...the more escaping you'll have to do. If parse didn't already use paren! for something important, there wouldn't be a problem with using compose.
But it's both jarring to see paren! used by compose in a parse rule and mechanically sticky.
 
9:32 PM
Unless you are composing parse rules, it tends to not be that bad because parens are mostly used in parse or compose rules; only rarely to send expressions to lit-word parameters or resolve precedence issues. You can use alternate builders or reduce to make parse rules, and almost noone needs to programatically create compose specs.
 
@BrianH You could do it by having unique symbols in the boilerplate, declaring what they were, running the code to generate the substituted things, and then passing in the boilerplate. rule: argify [arg1: (to lit-word! name) arg2: (to block! :args) arg3: (:value)] [s: arg1 paren! e: (e: inject arg2 arg3 s e) :s]
 
@HostileFork, could you look here: issue.cc/r3/1916 ? That ticket needs some feedback, and it's critical to get implemented one way or another ASAP.
 
Running the code before doing the substitutions might (?) reduce accidents caused by wayward code that modified the passed-in boilerplate (if passed in a variable), or at least make that easier to debug. Would have to think about that.
 
@HostileFork "There's a weird thing I saw in Red where it was using underscores and positional references to replace them in the loader." That's a code pattern I use quite often, I specify template blocks and use underscore or tags as placeholders that get replaced later. Nothing really weird, just declarative programming at work.
 
@DocKimbel It was weird to me because I didn't know what it was doing at first, and then weird when I tried to do better but couldn't see how. What do you think of that "argify"?
@BrianH I will have to learn what transcode does, I've never used it. But sure.
 
9:41 PM
@HostileFork Ladislav's build dialect might help you: fm.tul.cz/~ladislav/rebol/build.r
2
 
@BrianH Really cool and a short implementation. Any reason why that wouldn't be included in the mezzanine? It could make a lot of code nicer...
On first glance I'm not sure about the non-/with version, how much use that would get to justify not making the /with version called "build"
 
It might need some usability tweaking before I would make it a mezzanine, and likely R3 optimization too. But the short answer is that we were planning to rethink the mezzanines, to make them a bit more minimal and let people include what they needed from a community library. When encap is free, effectively, the mezzanines that aren't critical start to look like bloat. There are even some functions already in R3 that were unlikely to make the cut in the long run.
 
@HostileFork That looks nice, but you shouldn't bother much trying to make the current R2 code in Red project be more elegant as it is just disposable code not meant to survive the bootstrapping.
I haven't invested much in code structuring and elegancy because of that.
 
9:56 PM
@HostileFork Some functions were included because they were really useful for user code (like COLLECT), or implemented something that people got wrong so often that it's worth having a working function there by default just to cut down on common bugs (like MOVE). But some functions are less likely to stay without more consensus or use (like FORMAT, SPLIT, REWORD), because as-is they aren't good enough.
 
@DocKimbel Well you have a very certain plan regarding that so it is perhaps the case that R3 porting is not useful to you. It has at least been useful for fixing Rebol issues, documenting R2/R3 differences, and now I understand more of Red.
@DocKimbel However it makes your solid pyramid a little more tricky, and I would think a much better first test would not be the bootstrap but to (for instance) port Cheyenne to Red. It seems like the wrong thing to be pushing so early. And there are big advantages to both Rebol and Red to hunker down and solidify many other things.
 
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