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1:12 AM
@giuliolunati We need to "MODULARIZE=1" the WebAssembly build, otherwise you cannot load libr3 in a page with another webassembly-built thing (that did not modularize). I'm going to do this, and hopefully it won't affect much.
@RocketScienceGuy Ah, Winston-Salem. Home of the Silver Moon Saloon, presumably closed at the moment.
 
 
9 hours later…
10:30 AM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE ok, good.
 
11:01 AM
Happy 4th of July!
2
 
 
5 hours later…
3:41 PM
@iArnold Interesting character, thanks! Too bad that Uncle Bob takes such a horrible language, in terms of readability, as java (troll detected, I know...): he could make an excellent point by showing the expressivism of Rebol (or Red) code, without the need for comments, etc.
 
3:52 PM
I'll keep on watching this, secretly hoping that, at some point, Uncle Bob will just turn to Rebol syntax, and show what real Clean Code may look like.
 
4:10 PM
@Pierre Something that is a big sticking point with me about a lot of the current practice is that it all starts with a command line tool that generates a ton of scaffolding and boilerplate. You can never start with just a file to do a simple thing, and then grow it out organically.
Languages like Python or shell scripting tools like Bash (I hestitate to call it a "language") give a certain comfort, and Rebol gave another comfort of a cross-platform single EXE that could do many things.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE I just don't understand such practice. I just enjoy writing every single line of my code, I want to know everything that happens in the stuff I'm trying to write.
But I don't like to use frameworks or code generators. I'd rather type, or generate myself my code, if necessary.
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE True. Combining Rebol with bash is great fun, although maintainability will certainly be an issue, at some point.
 
I think the thing is, that while these are really nice and desirable properties to have, you have to look at the whole. And to my mind, Rebol never really delivered as a language. Red is doing perhaps a worse job (while they are continuing to be very mindful about the packaging aspect, and being able to start your code from a single file).
There are just too many dark corners. If you haven't read PHP: A Fractal of Bad Design it is kind of applicable.
Substitute "Red" in there, and you have an equally valid essay.
Some people have shown up and provided critique--e.g. Memophenon comes to mind, about the TO A B matrix or MAKE A B matrix, trying to make sense of it. And there's no invariant or pattern. What "FIND" thinks is equal is different from what "SWITCH" thinks equality is, and the lack of rigor is pervasive.
Some people are willing to drink the Kool Aid, and I think one of the sole comforts people had was that no matter how wonky the system was...if it didn't change, they could work around it.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Oh, come on, aren't you exaggerating a bit? (I've only read a few paragraphs, and, so far, I could easily s/PHP/javascript/ , although I know very little javascript, but the few things I've learnt about javascript just scared me).
 
@Pierre Not particularly. I am--whether people like to admit it or not--the world's Rebol expert. I know more about the R3-Alpha codebase than Carl did when he was writing it, and certainly more about it than he would know now--having been away a while. I can crash Red six ways to Sunday because I know every mistake they're making...each comment and protection in Ren-C on something they are missing is basically something they've done wrong.
3
I do enjoy the invention. It's a very different way of thinking about code, and I wonder exactly how far it could be pushed.
The philosophy aspects, which sometimes get into the Humpty Dumpty argument of "words mean what I want them to mean, no more and no less" is going to scare formalists, and make them ask how anyone could stand to use such a tool. Yet they conduct most of their daily communication in English, so...
 
4:26 PM
Well, isn't it time, once you've admitted this, to rename Ren-C to Rebol 4 or 5?...
I'm not kidding very much, actually: in terms of public communication, the Rebol name still rings many bells. I'm always surprised how many people around me know about Rebol, they had practised a long time ago.
 
@Pierre It's not going to be Rebol at all.
It will be under a new name and license.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE ...
 
I've never claimed to speak for Rebol or Carl. I said Ren-C was an engine and it could be packaged in distributions, as the Linux Kernel is. Whatever set of mezzanines or behaviors you like could be built on it.
And if the official Rebol(tm) wished to build itself on it, then it could.
 
Then, why wouldn't you get in touch with Carl, make him accept all Ren-C pull requests, and carry on? Have source bases diverged, or would this be feasible (sorry, I'm asking, I've got no idea).
 
Not much of a chance at this point, it's part of my great giving-up.
 
4:29 PM
Great giving-up? <= ?
 
I think Carl is probably more comfortable with the glory days of his Rebol2 adherents than he would ever be looking into Ren-C. Not that he couldn't understand it, mind you. But it would take time, and I think that as he's not really been putting in the time on more minor things it wouldn't interest him much.
One must bear in mind that even something seemingly minor...like keeping the rebol.com sites up, is a tax. It's a tax for paying for the domain names. It's a tax in time whenever you have to apply a "security update" that brings along with it a lot of other unwanted stuff.
Getting older, one wonders why one pays the tax, just because you wrote something once.
@Pierre The great giving-up is realizing that no amount of work is going to sway the long-term die-hards from their ways. They are like ducks that hatched and Rebol2 was there, so forever they will follow it.
 
Hmm, kind of sad... I'm sorry that I've totally missed that whole Ren-C story, over the last few years.
 
4:45 PM
@Pierre Not so much to miss for most. People who want a "product" would not be satisfied. It's the research wing of Rebol. What we disagree about is whether there's a benefit to proceeding without further research; e.g. is the world interested in something that is linguistically and application-wise parallel to Rebol2, but open source and faster.
 
«parallel to Rebol2» <= ?
 
And Red has even reneged on the "open source" part, by using their license leverage to build a closed-source branch.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE ?? I wasn't aware of this.
 
@Pierre "Red/Pro"
@Pierre It's one of the reasons I'm relicensing to LGPL3, to prohibit closed-source derivatives. Can be done from Apache2. You cannot, however, relicense Apache2 to LGPL2. Little technicalities.
 
Licences... (sigh)
 
4:53 PM
Time and again, I feel the truth is borne out: Stallman was Right
 
5:07 PM
@Pierre And he thinks it is okay for programmers to be in jail for creating the VW cheating software, where the ones ordering that software behaviour ought to be in jail. (He scored major minor points with me for that!)
 
Yes.
« By contrast, consider the great artists and artisans of medieval times, who didn't even sign their names to their work. To them, the name of the artist was not important. What mattered was that the work was doneā€”and the purpose it would serve. This view prevailed for hundreds of years.»
=> interesting point of view, it matches with some political subjects that I've been involved with lately...
 
(Programmers are NOT responsible for implementing their software in real products in companies of that scale! There are different responsibilities.)
 
@iArnold Yes, a few things he says in a peremptory mode could sometimes bear much more nuances.
 
@iArnold If you knew what you were doing, and that it was illegal, you should be in jail. I don't know how long.
"I was just following orders" when you know the orders are immoral/wrong is not a good excuse. Get another job.
 
About comments, for instance: there's a practice of commenting which I like, which consists of first writing the whole program in plain English (or Spanish, or whatever human language), describing all the code, and then insert real code in between the original text which becomes large comments. He didn't even mention that kind of practice.
 
5:14 PM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE I know it is something NOT like 'Befehl ist Befehl', but your software could be used in case the legal situation changes, or for testing purposes to see how limiting fuel addition works out on performance levels, nowadays like Uncle Bob states kicking the gas-pedal only lets software decide how much gas is injected anyway ;-)
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE It's sometimes more difficult than this. I didn't follow orders at my last job. Now I'm out of work since February, and there's virtually no hope to get a job any more at my age in my field of «expertise» (hate this word).
 
@Pierre If it were not for Corona, we should shake hands Pierre!
 
@iArnold I'm glad my car is just made of bare metal, without a single processor in it.
@iArnold Ouch, sorry. Are you also jobless?
 
Old beetle or 2CV or ?
 
I've got two old 2CV, yes, but they're sleeping somewhere in a safe place. I've got a Land Rover Discovery I. I suspect the radio to have some processors... I'll go and smash it.
 
5:17 PM
@Pierre Yes, and tooooooo ffing busy finding a new job to either study Java or work on the R(whatevernewname) GUI
@Pierre Don't, we need to make REN-C a success! And reprogram those darn processors with real code!
 
@iArnold Sorry. On my side, I've lost hope to keep working as an exploration geologist, so I took the decision to just switch to computer science. I'm starting in University on September 1st, and until then, I must (re)learn C and Python.
 
@iArnold I am not sure exactly when I would approve of industrial use of this kind of code. :-/
 
@iArnold Good. You just stopped me from getting a hammer.
 
I have been looking at Rust. People say that Go is what C programmers would have made if they designed a new language, and Rust is what C++ programmers would have made if they designed a new language.
 
(I kind of like the idea of getting REN-C with a GUI and then recreate Red ;-) )
 
5:20 PM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Does this mean that you're perfectly aware (and the only one able to be on this small planet) that the behaviour of some Rebol code may be... PHPesque?...
@iArnold W H A T ? ?
 
I do face similar issues being spoiled by Rebol for good. No real intent to learn YET ANOTHER STUPID LANGUAGE.
(Don't interrupt all the time ;-) )
 
@Pierre I question in general the idea of mutable state with uncontrolled side-effects. It's good for some things, like mechanical pencil and paper is good for some things. See also Haskell is Useless
If one's life is on the line, I like having some mathematical confidence that a thing won't fail its purpose.
 
@Pierre That was a joke, I admit I would not be able in my lifetime unless I won the lottery and as a math person I know that as the chance is so small that saving your money is better in the long run. (Why I hate the lottory dream home show, where stupid people can buy their dream villa's).
 
But... that isn't to say that there isn't a wide scope of application for exploratory tools that are fun. LEGO has influenced many things. Including being a sketching tool for Pixar characters: CubeDudes
Should you build a house, office building, or skyscraper out of LEGOs? Probably not. Are they still neat? Yes.
 
About side-effects and stuff like that, I'm about to finish reading a book about PostgreSQL architecture and internal workings. It's kind of interesting, because there's a sort of hidden notion of «side effects are everywhere» and «global variables rule the world».
 
5:33 PM
PHP jobs are seriously underpaid, competing salaries, competing with India I guess, so impossible to make a living over here.
Java is highly in demand. But need 3 to 4 years of experience. I did some courses with Java, juggled some game but I like Rebol a melon times better. So the HR and managers ("You hired someinexperienced Java Programmers???") are looking for programmers who held out in a team where Java was programmed, even though thee guys never produced a single line of code themselves.
 
Moreover, it goes much further than simple global variables: there's a large chunk of memory that is shared by a fair amount of processes: so it's a bit like there would be some sort of «global variables shared by several programs».

I've always liked global variables, instinctively. Now I can admit it publicly.
 
That is what we are facing now.
@Pierre There is so much but until that lottery win is safe in the pocket....
 
@iArnold Ouch.
 
@Pierre If you haven't experienced it, try Learn You A Haskell and check out the magic of Hoogle. It's not a panacea, and I've met people who are Ph.D CS but call themselves "imperative programming heretics" by saying pure functional is not all it's cracked up to be. But if you can't appreciate it, just try working some freshman CS problems with it and be amazed at how much easier and correct it all is.
 
@iArnold Before I start playing lottery, I'll give a try at computing, but not as a pure programmer. The university course that I'm about to attend is aiming at something like a devopDBA.
 
5:37 PM
@Pierre I always wanted to create chess programs and such, and many states are just global variables, so many thing are globals and the type of program is just a single instance and WHY go through all the trouble of shielding and other BS OO.
 
@iArnold Oh yes. OOP has always been counter-intuitive to me. I have once successfully done something useful in Python, using OO approach, and I must admit that it worked like magic. But writing it in the first place took me a great effort.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Great site, also the erlang version is great! Erlang is super. You should try the factorial of 6000 in it. Instant result and it comes as an integer.
 
(I should mention that what I'm about to attend will be Free Software, teachers are beardy engaged Librists, so I'll be on the safe (rms) side, no-one will make me use any Crimsoft thing (I hope)).
 
@Pierre I have started my career in a batch oriented surrounding and OO makes so little sense. It is that computers have been so much better than before, but to be honest nothing beats the batch.
 
@iArnold Batch?
Like in .bat files?
(looong time ago... I stopped using MS-DOS and its somehow-related GUI system about fifteen years ago...)
 
5:44 PM
No. Batch processing is when at night you collect all stuff from the database and process it line by line. Say a phone company has all calls saved in the database and once a month the batch collects all database data of made calls in giant files and processes the data to make phone bills for the customers.
 
Thanks, I'll give it a try.

Er... Wasn't haskell supposed to be a useless thing, in the video I watch a few seconds ago?...
 
@Pierre That is why I added Erlang ;-)
In the end all languages are useless after Rebol (TNG) (Ah! RTNG!) gains world dominance.
 
Gee, so many languages... I sincerely wish I could focus just on ONE, and program frenetically, knowing that THIS language would be the VERY ONE that I would use until I pass away.

Yes, of course, I meant Rebol.
@iArnold I have to find an old magazine that I have, from around 1999 probably, with a big title on its frontpage: «Rebol: the language that can dethrone Java». World domination was imminent.
I must go. Bye, chaps!
 
6:33 PM
I think that has come by before.
Now we look to the future. To summarize my thoughts at this moment. Find out how to work with ports/sound/video work with web and cloud database and API's, create executables for all platforms and keep it a secret!
 
 
1 hour later…
7:53 PM
I honestly think I kind of nailed it in the Amish programming talk.
I was trying to channel what I think Carl was getting at.
I think he has realized that in web tech, this is an unrealistic goal, and so it is mostly something you can only do in embedded systems where people are still counting the bytes and cycles.
I am perhaps less pessimistic; e.g. I think just as you can sell a chip to someone that runs a big stack of code, you can wean people off of deep stacks if you can indoctrinate them in the idea that maybe having more control over your bootstrap is a good or desirable thing.
What I tried to do was demonstrate that I hadn't let the "chip" be contaminated by the web stack. As I'm ex-Microsoft, the "embrace and extend<strike>extinguish</strike>" philosophy comes to mind.
 

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