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5:09 AM
I've been pinged! The problem is not just the mortality with figures at 15% for oldest age groups, it's the huge use of hospital resources with people not necessarily dying but spending weeks in ICU needing respiratory and renal support. There's going to be years of recovery for the survivors. Knowing people in the know who know nothing isn't illuminating.
4
 
 
2 hours later…
6:44 AM
[Here in Italy]( before the lockdown
Here in Italy ante lockdown the ICU growth rate was about 8x per week
(Red line)
 
 
5 hours later…
11:50 AM
"The architect of Sweden's controversial lighter lockdown policy for dealing with coronavirus has for the first time conceded the ... country should have imposed more restrictions to avoid having such a high death toll. Anders Tegnell, Sweden's state epidemiologist, agreed ... that too many people had died in the country." Financial Times, June 3
 
 
1 hour later…
1:15 PM
red>> compose/deep data: [a [b (clear data recycle "hello") c] d e]
== [a [b "[a [b " c] d e]
red>> compose/deep data: [a [b (clear data recycle collect [loop 1000 [keep 12-Dec-
2012]] recycle <worse?>) c] d e]
*** Script Error: context for only is not available
ren-c>> compose/deep data: [a [b (clear data recycle "hello") c] d e]
** Access Error: series has temporary read-only hold for iteration
 
1:38 PM
Well, finding inefficiencies is good for sure, but what about posting something positive? :-)
 
@pekr That's not inefficiency, it's a bug (which would likely crash, though those just got some weird reused data or side effects). I think it's hard to come up with good answers for what the semantics of such operations are when mutation is allowed midway-through.
 
eh, SO ruined my day, just wanted to post a gif-anim with some nice example and can't paste a media file here ....
As for your example, I am stuck at first example thinking out what the result should be ....
Btw - above Red/View example is a nice example of self-hosting. I think the aproach was like - OK, console is done using View, there is a window tree structure, let's insert something in there during the console live session ....
 
@pekr Well, if "shouldn't crash" is agreed upon that's different from "doing sufficiently weird things will probably always crash, and that's a weird thing, so not a priority"
 
Not that it would be practically useful, but just cool to show off. Most probably still a cash registers for you? :-)
 
@pekr I'm not sure I understand the point in spending so much energy on a console. It's good for a quick learning test or two, but that's about it.
 
1:45 PM
@pekr It's not bad, but I'm not blown away by it. I think one of the problems is that when things are easy to do in a web browser, and people come and look and say "where's the beef", they're going to ask questions about language/debugging/integration/etc. Bigger picture things.
 
Hmm, so how do you treat it infrastructure wise in Ren-C? You temporarily dissable mutation?
 
@pekr Yes, internal routines that do structural work like that temporarily disable mutation until the restructuring is finished.
 
@rgchris I don't undestand your point. It is not an example of the Red Team, just from the skilled user. There is actually NO feature put to support that, just a side effect of using View to create a console. And as in View, you can insert a stuff in its pane, hence it creates an overlay ...
Using R2 or Red/View console in comparison to R3 black window nightmare, is a real relevation. At least I have used the console for prototyping during the R2 days ....
 
@pekr If I do use R2, Red or Ren-C at a console, it's in the Terminal app, which is generally a pleasant experience.
As consoles go.
It's just a terrible environment to actually develop and test.
 
Why do you downplay what is in fact a great achievement? It's like those statements - why new lang, if there is Python, Ruby, etc...
 
1:56 PM
@pekr It all depends on what you think makes for a great achievement. I guess the thing is that if I'm not impressed, that lack of impressed-ness is not coming from a position of ignorance.
 
@pekr It's a sideshow when there are more fundamental issues.
 
It's kind of neat when I read over their stuff to see the ways Red/System can be used, and hard not to be envious of the idea of being able to write Rebol-like constructs vs C. So I'll give points there.
 
This is actually a barrier for me using Red in a particular instance and seems a very basic function: #4262. Hasn't been categorized, let alone addressed.
In fairness, I get a different error when I try it now.
 
2:11 PM
@rgchris I might be picky, but for the second time I try to correct your pov, as what is the sideshow here, as an end user provided such a functionality? It took exactly zero time for the Red Team to support such a functionality. It's just side effect of GUI console being View based.
 
It's something that has to be maintained and has come at the expense of basic IO.
 
2:39 PM
Well, our experience might differ. I never got onto the R3 bandwagon because of mostly a terrible console experience. It was imo one of those aspects, which attracted many ppl.
As to your bug report - please try to reach the Red team. Last time some user claimed he had to postpone some stuff, Doc reacted that in some cases they might take that argument and change some priorities. Not sure how difficult your ticket is to fix ...
 
@pekr I reach them via you. :-) You can title it "confusing behavior if composed array is mutated during the compose by code in parens". If they care, they care. If not, I'd not be able to make them care. first example is enough for them to get the point
But it's something that Ren-C solves systemically with temporary holds on series that are being enumerated. You have to be careful to release those holds on errors and throws, and such.
The mechanism is presenting a challenge in stackless compose, however, which I'm back to looking at today and scratching my head over.
Failing to have these holds means every enumerating concept that runs user code that can mutate series presents an opportunity for some piece of state to go bad out from under you. So you wind up paying a cost that after every piece of user code is run you check that any old state hasn't gone out of bounds from what you first saw... or if you were holding any pointers that the series hasn't been grown/reycled/whatever.
 
@pekr I spend very little time using consoles, it's not really a consideration for me. I can see how it may affect a user's first impression, but once you start using a language you need something that integrates better with editors.
 
3:01 PM
I sense a need for volunteers to report issues to the Red team because "us" the persona-non-grata are running low on goodwill points. :-P
 
3:44 PM
@iArnold I don't consider @rgchris being a persona non gratta in terms of the Red ecospace :-)
 
4:17 PM
posted on June 03, 2020 by Bohdan Lechnowsky

SWhite - I am 1.5 decades away (at the earliest) from retirement. I've been pondering what to do when I do retire. I think I'll put more time into my innumerable hobbies, one of which is programming. Even though I program mostly for work, there are some home-based projects I'd like to do as well. I also haven't put in the effort to figure out github. I'd rather build my own system that is as s

 
5:07 PM
I wonder why reduce hasn't a /deep refinement as compose has, e.g. reduce/deep [1 + 2 [3 + 4]] = [3 [7]] Is that by design?
 
5:33 PM
@giuliolunati Probably just a matter of no one seeing a use for it. Would it only reduce "source-level" blocks in that fashion? Or reduce/deep [1 + 2 someblock] doubly reduce someblock?
 
5:44 PM
I know we still don't have a great syntax for "predicates"...the way of giving your own function to substitute for whatever is being done. e.g. ANY defaults to the behavior of ANY-TRUTHY, but you could also want to change that to be ANY-EVEN?, etc. SWITCH defaults to SWITCH-EQUAL?, but what if you want SWITCH-GREATER?, or what-have-you.
But if we did, I'm wondering if SWITCH is better seen as operating in alternating pairs where the switched-to value isn't presumed as a block. This would mean you do things like make your predicate on multi-switch things in blocks if there were many of them.
Anyway, just looking at the parallel implementations of CASE and SWITCH, and if they were implemented in terms of each other that would be neat. But there's other ways to share code.
>> g: generator [yield compose/deep [So (yield "How") [(yield "About")] (yield "This") ?]]
== make action! [[] [...]]

>> g
== "How"

>> g
== "About"

>> g
== "This"

>> g
== [So "How" ["About"] "This" ?]
^-- boom.
 
6:37 PM
@pekr Lets not put him in the dangerzone then ;-)
 
6:48 PM
pathology: func [n] [
    result: <fin>
    loop n [
        result: compose/deep/only [(as paren! [depth: depth + 1]) (result)]
    ]
    insert result [(depth: 0)]
    return result
]
    red>> pathology 2
    == [(depth: 0) (depth: depth + 1) [(depth: depth + 1) <fin>]]

    red>> compose/deep pathology 6
    == [0 1 [2 [3 [4 [5 [6 <fin>]]]]]]

    red>> compose/deep pathology 10000
    ** Stack Overflow

    red>> depth
    == 1983
 
7:05 PM
No longer a limitation in Stackless Ren-C; easily does 10000. Goes back to the issue of available heap memory, not more limited CPU stack amount (which you may be able to control on some platforms, but if so the setting is generally hardened into the executable).
 
7:22 PM
@iArnold He says as he heads out, mask and all, to the center of a friendly American city...
 
Just trying to write that PATHOLOGY function in Red hit me on several pain points. First of all, I initially wrote it recursively and it stack overflowed on me...but I wasn't trying to test recursive function calls (stackless in Ren-C) I was trying to test deep composes. So I had to change it to be iterative.
I also messed up and forgot a COPY where I needed one, so I wound up modifying the same thing in a new thing during a recursion and wasn't warned by CONST-ness. Also, the lack of a clean way to tag what material to skip for GROUP!'s in COMPOSE forces you to do that ugly "as paren!" thing.
>> compose/deep <*> [a [b (woo!) ((<*> reverse [e d c])) (woo!) f] g]
== [a [b (woo!) c d e (woo!) f] g]
 
7:53 PM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE uhm... right, it would add too much complexity
 
8:05 PM
COMPOSE/DEEP historically gives you copies of blocks that are descended into even if there is no change to them, while plain COMPOSE just uses the existing sub-arrays. It seems like the question of "search sub-arrays for more GROUP!s" is independent of whether you want those sub-arrays duplicated.
e.g. you can imagine a plain COMPOSE that doesn't want you to look deeply for GROUP!s might still want deep copies of the arrays that are there. :-/ People are probably more attached to the efficient COMPOSE nature of only looking at the top level than they are to the deep duplication of no-op branches in traditional COMPOSE, so something like a /FULLY refinement might make the most sense.
>> data: [a [b c] (1 + 2)]
== [a [b c] (1 + 2)]

>> c: compose data
== [a [b c] 3]

>> append second data 'x
== [b c x]

>> data
== [a [b c x] (1 + 2)]  ; note change
 
 
1 hour later…
9:08 PM
^-- er, should have said append second c 'x (same result) but actually what I meant. Or could have had the last point show c
 

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