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5:17 AM
@iArnold or maybe it is because the virus was an overblown, hysteria driven, blight that has all but ruined the economy which will lead to far more death than the virus itself. My family is all doctors and pharmacists, trust me when I say that the reaction to the virus was rediculous.
For some odd reason, the vast numbers of doctors, virologists, and epidemiologists that attempted to let people know how benign the virus truly is have been suppressed/banned from social media.
 
 
3 hours later…
7:52 AM
@JacobGood1 Let me disagree. Here in Lombardy, at February we tought so. Then in March we were overwhelmed by disease and death. We no more trust to such "benign" theories.
4
 
 
7 hours later…
2:23 PM
Did you see the death yourself or did you see that on tv? I have been talking to my sister and father, including multiple other health care workers, their story is very different from the medias rendition. I can tell you their names and the hospitals that they work for if you prefer. The fact is that I have DIRECT access to what is going on, do you?
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Just wanted to pop in and say hi. :)
So I have a silly question about I think Rebol in general. Let's say I go to the REPL and type 'foo: 1'. I think I understand that goes to the 'self' object as 'foo'. How does that happen? Is 'do' responsible for doing that?
 
3:03 PM
@RobertHencke Code runs through a process, which binds it first to the "user context" and then falls back to LIB. After the loading/binding, the evaluator is run. Evaluation can trigger more binding after that...but the ball gets rolling via LOAD.
The evaluator itself doesn't bind as part of its process. But it runs functions that can. E.g. a looping construct will bind the body of the loop to loop variables in an object it creates.
 
@JacobGood1 If you think that, you have clearly not understood the real problem. The virus was more contageous than expected, and allthough most healthy people can cope with it and only appear to have minor influenza symptoms, many in poorer condition or even young people do suffer so much that they end up in the intensive care. There is room on the IC but not for the many extra cases this brought, resulting in more deaths of people that could have easily lived some more years.
If you do not value other peoples lives because they are older?
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE ahh, that makes sense, thank you. Is LIB the 'system' object or is that different?
 
@RobertHencke The system object is different, it's a grab bag of stuff that you might want to know about the session you are using (interpreter version, command-line stuff, etc.)
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE ahh so like metadata about the environment, ok
 
@JacobGood1 There were also MANY doctors and nurses killed by this "benign" virus.
 
3:09 PM
@iArnold With an emphasis on 'most' healthy people. Some healthy people have been decimated by the disease too.
 
I do value people's lives like the thousands that are starving now because we shut down. I know very well about the virus, like I said I have direct connections to the people who study these things, and who are in the front line. The virus was expected to approxiamelty have an r0 value of between 3 to 6.9, it was expected to be highly contagious. It is highly contagious but the death rate is a lot lower than than what was expected. It has followed a path similar to the flu.
 
Better not get involved in an accident when the intensive care is loaded with Corona patients, there may no place for you there.
 
oh, I see. so I can type 'lib/print "foo"' to explicitly use print from the system library instead of possibly the user context. (not that I'd need to, just.. piecing together how it all works mentally)
 
Some health people die from a bee sting as well, what is your point?
 
@JacobGood1 Don't mess with bees.
 
3:11 PM
@RobertHencke Yup, assuming lib/print foo hasn't been overridden. :-/ Ren-C has some tools to attack the hard problems... but there's a lot to think through of how the Rube-Goldberg approach can be practical enough to be "fun" and productive instead of just insane: forum.rebol.info/t/…
 
@iArnold Yup.
 
(And don't give honey to babies, chance of botulism bacteria)
 
Look, my family owns two pharmacies, multiple clinics, and works in various hospitals, the virus is as deadly as the flu. The economic fallout is severe, far more deadly than the virus. The hospitals were not overrun, many health care workers have been furloughed due to a lack of patients and many old people are dying over other diseases due to the fear of going to a hospital.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE I see what you mean.. that's tricky
 
@JacobGood1 We don't fully understand the nature of the virus, we do know the measures that have been taken will buy us time in that regard. It's awful cavalier to say that preventable deaths are a good price to pay for a functioning economy (which didn't exist when the lockdowns began anyway 'cause people didn't wait for that to socially isolate). The economic fallout could have been far better managed (for example, UBI for the duration, support for restaurants for food distribution).
 
3:18 PM
@JacobGood1 There aren't simple answers, but quarantining for a while bought a bit of time to figure out what one is dealing with. It does seem to be emerging that different categories of people are differently vulnerable. But many people who started out saying it was nothing changed their tune after getting it and losing people to it. cbsnews.com/news/brian-hitchens-coronavirus-florida
 
I am concerned about life, there will be far more lives lost due to the response. It is awfully irresponsible for many of you to think you know what you are talking about without actually doing a modicum of research. See this:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/05/06/the-covid-19-crisis-has-already-left-too-many-children-hungry-in-america/

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/05/05/850470436/u-n-warns-number-of-people-starving-to-death-could-double-amid-pandemic
cbs is very trustworthy: projectveritas.com/news/…
 
@JacobGood1 No kidding, that is an indictment of the stimulus methods employed. See my last point above.
The amount of money that went on 'small business' support was very badly targeted.
 
The response is the issue, printing money is not a solution no matter where it goes
 
We have printed money, it just hasn't found its way to where it's needed.
 
I know we have printed money, we have printed a metric ton of money, that was a bad idea
 
3:31 PM
Not in and of itself. We have the capacity to do so, we're just squandering the potential benefits.
 
@JacobGood1 I think people understand that there are tradeoffs and that things weren't handled correctly. Then this goes along with the question of why processes haven't been in place for dealing with outbreaks. Much of that blame can be traced to people who are trying to sound like the "voice of practicality/reason" arguing for opening back up.
And then, you wind up with polarized camps... one that hides in their house all day and sprays Lysol on their cats... the others who tend to feel invulnerable and have big beach parties...
 
By the way, I was all for shutting down. I warned the company I worked for about the danger of the virus in January. I was paying attention to what was going on in China, I was reading and discussing things with my family. At this point, we are all convinced that we were deceived about the dangers of the virus
 
@JacobGood1 It's difficult to say because, by and large, social distancing has been accepted and thus could well have mitigated the most dire consequences (how could you prove that?). I worry here in Philly that with the protests that a lot of people have been exposed in recent days. I guess we'll find out in the next few weeks.
 
Just look at countries and states that did not shut down at all and see if there is a statistically significant difference in transmission rates and death (spoiler alert: there is no difference)
https://www.turnto23.com/news/coronavirus/watch-controversial-press-conference-held-by-two-bakersfield-doctors-that-was-pulled-down-by-youtube

My family has the same conclusions as these fellows who were banned from social media
 
@JacobGood1 I don't think we will get data on the parallel reality where people didn't adapt their behaviors due to strong guidance. But the places where it was most important to be aware...where the spread is most severe if there isn't sensitivity (hospitals/nursing homes) are going to adapt once they know about it regardless of whether the Denny's is open or not.
 
3:44 PM
@rgchris Just FYI, the phrase is "physical distancing". Social distancing is for hating people, ostracising them, and "sending them to Coventry".
 
@MarkI I do both.
 
:)
 
lol
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE is it intentional that 'print' does not print integers in ren-c?
 
@RobertHencke Yes, although I keep such ideas under review. It's to avoid the situation described here: forum.rebol.info/t/…
 
3:54 PM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE. thanks! (reads)
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE at least from an outside perspective it makes sense you can do 'print {}' or 'print []' to be able to print newlines, to your musings about accepting CHAR! in that post, and that matches how you'd approach it in other languages. now I know to also reach for 'dump' and 'probe' for some of the cases I was looking at.
 
@RobertHencke I don't know what the "right" answer is on these kinds of "safety" issues. I do know that historical Rebol really confuses new users to the point they never get to any fun parts. But finding the "sweet spot" can be hard. Check out the SWITCH case I describe here: forum.rebol.info/t/the-beta-one-mutability-manifesto/1062
 
4:09 PM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE so far learning Rebol has been very different. there's a lot that's still fuzzy but the core parts are making sense. it's kind of refreshing how little syntax there is to worry about, compared to other languages. I'm enjoying how blocks are just lists of values that can either be code interpreted or data, depending on how you use them. reading about SWITCH now..
there may not be one right answer, either. everything's got trade-offs.. finding the best trade-offs is hard and more art than science sometimes
 
Making it easy to bend and get your own PRINT or whatever is the way I'd like to see it go.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE regarding your post, how does CONST differ from PROTECT?
 
@RobertHencke CONST is a bit on values (e.g. references), two value instances that alias the same underlying block by identity can have one be const and one not. PROTECT is a bit on the series itself---all references will experience the lock. CONST also achieves transitivity through some wacky rules.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE ahhh I see, so CONST is a property of the value itself, not the reference to that value
 
Historical PROTECT was not very robust; some routines checked the bit, others did not. There wasn't anything systemic about it to ensure a compile-time check. Ren-C has a bunch of fixed instances of that...but no real holistic answer for how any builds would catch a violation.
 
4:20 PM
and the escape hatch is MUTABLE
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE at least from the docs it seems like PROTECT was more to ward off 'oops' cases, like redefining something core. I see how CONST is working now. that's pretty crazy to be able to mutate values like that!
 
@RobertHencke Yup. Anyway, CONST tries to strike a balance for the classic surprise of loop 2 [block: [] append block 'x] giving [x x] and not [x].
While still letting you say block: [] append block 'x as a convenience when in non-iterative situations, or in iterative situations you decide you don't care...
 
@JacobGood1 In the community where I celebrate the liturgy everyday, we lose 4 persons of 30. Two others were near to death .
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE would the 'fix' for that loop 2 be something like 'loop 2 [block: [] append copy block 'x]' ?
 
4:38 PM
@giuliolunati So sorry for your loss. This is why people need to realize it is very contagious, and it has the potential to spread quickly in places where it gets to.
@RobertHencke More likely loop 2 [block: copy [] append block 'x] if you wanted a new block each time. But bear in mind, copies are shallow by default. They won't copy the strings or blocks inside of them. This is another matter where CONST's transitivity helps you out.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE oooh, got it. So the copy would work for a simple expression but not something with nested blocks.
 
‌>> loop 2 [block: copy [a [b]] append block 'c]

‌>> block
== [a [b] c]

‌>> loop 2 [block: copy [a [b]] append second block 'c]
‌** Access Error: CONST or iterative value (see MUTABLE): [b]
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE. That seems like a nice safety, especially given the example you had in that post with double-plus-ungood :)
 
>> loop 2 [block: copy/deep [a [b]] append second block 'c]

>> block
== [a [b c]]
@RobertHencke Yes, good to get the hint you forgot the /DEEP
For a time I tried an "all source series are locked by default" trial, so you couldn't write plain block: [] append block 'x. This caused many complaints...although it hardened the places that do the protection checks.
So that just used PROTECT. This compromise of iterative contexts where things that happen more than once (loop bodies, function bodies) kicking off with a softer CONST on values inherited through the execution seems to not be getting complaints, and I think it helps catch casual mistakes.
Other things were considered...e.g. some kind of copy-on-write scheme, where every time the evaluator ran across a SET-WORD! assignment of a block it would get a unique identity that would copy the data when it was changed. But when you try and do something pure-functional-programming style in a hacky way, you kind of end up in a worst of both worlds situation.
Either use Clojure or don't, I guess. :-/
The direct visceral relationship with the "bricks" and thinking in that way can get you some interesting levels of control, and hopefully some Minecraft feel. The system isn't doing anything behind your back.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE that makes sense. at least on the surface it seems like a reasonable compromise, the way it is right now. Especially if this is catching what were once tough-to-debug errors before
 
5:24 PM
@giuliolunati I also work in the church, 17000 members. Question, are you sure that they died of covid exclusively or was it a comorbidity. Is the population you work with mostly elderly?
 
@JacobGood1 economic fallout.. WE ourselves ARE the economy.
And I can predict that Trump will not be president after the next elections. (Ifit turns out I am wrong on this, next time I won't be wrong)
 
estimates are about 150 million people will starve now... WE ARE THE ECONOMY
 
@iArnold Assuming the elections are not in any way disrupted.
@JacobGood1 We can address that without 'reopening' the economy in a reckless way.
 
5:41 PM
@JacobGood1 one case comorbidity. Fact is, we never experimented a similar death rate.
 
Worth noting again that no-one 'shut down' the economy. Individuals heeding warnings chose to distance/isolate. You can try and 'reopen' the economy, but a significant number of people will not participate if circumstances haven't changed (which without a testing strategy or a vaccine, they have and will not).
I certainly don't think anyone should be forced to participate through necessity or desperation. We need UBI to allow people to do the right thing.
 
I guess no one was arrested for trying to resume normal operation of their business then...
 
@JacobGood1 we never had intensive care full, before. Sure, your mileage may vary... I wish you the covid be much more benign in your country!
 
5:59 PM
@JacobGood1 The lockdowns (at least in my city) happened after isolation began and restaurants lost business. The economy was already adjusting. I have mixed thoughts about whether non-essential businesses should have been forced to close, however I believe that without UBI, too many people have been forced to take risks with their and the public's health.
As to food, why restaurants haven't been repurposed for food distribution is beyond me.
 
6:17 PM
I am uncomfortable with someone in power designating what people do for their lively hood as "non-essential".
 
Fair enough, but does the barber re-open because they love cutting hair, you miss having your hair cut or because without it they can't cover food or shelter? I'd be loathe to stop them from doing something they love, would be loathe to force them to do something because you love it, but I'm ok with skipping the haircut if it reduces the opportunity to spread infection and the barber has an alternate means of covering essentials (UBI—or even the half-assed alternatives currently employed).
 
It would be nice if we had more granular contracts, where people who were willing to assume risks (like a barber and a patron) could do so based on their information. But that granularity doesn't cover cases like the kid who lives with his grandparents, or the implicit contract that exists for medical professionals to treat people regardless of what risks they took to get sick.
 
I agree with what you are saying about preventing death, however, the numbers are not there, the data does not support the assertions that this disease is any more deadly than the 150 or so currently circulating viruses. Since you are concerned about death, it is the reaction that is deadly, I have given sufficient proof of that. Influenza in 2017/2018 killed 1.5 million people, where was the fear, where was the reaction? The reaction has been predicated upon false information, that is my point.
 
6:33 PM
@JacobGood1 We are actively going out of our way to avoid collecting that information. We know this virus can be spread in incubation, unlike influenza, and we know it can have some bad effects and benign effects. We choose not to deploy more widespread testing to find out how many people have had it and thus cannot know if it is more or less deadly.
 
@JacobGood1 There's not much we can personally do about it here. But I think that early information wasn't clear on exactly how much age was a factor vs. whether you had to worry excessively about surface contamination. More information should inform a return to normal; but be careful about being too cavalier, as others who were have changed their tune.
 
I'm not worried at all, as I have already stated, my entire family is in the medical community. I have direct access to information that many are not privy to. Reality is very different from what most people think. You all know me, I do not talk much at all, I do not shoot my mouth off, you might want to consider what I am telling you.
 
@JacobGood1 I too have many direct connections to the medical community. They are not as sanguine.
 
@JacobGood1 Well, @GrahamChiu is also in the medical community, and New Zealand seems to be doing pretty well. He writes a lot of answers.
 
A third of my apartment is currently a doctor's office!
 
6:41 PM
My father was a Ph.D microbio immunologist. I think something we all agree on is that the biggest problem in all of this is not dealing with something that is somehow unmanageable (many virus "wargames" were played out were with much more Hollywood-lethal). Instead, the tactical management has been poor, so more people died than needed to.
 
The overall cumulative hospitalization rate is 4.6 per 100,000 straight from the CDC.
 
@JacobGood1 Well we aren't going to resolve any policy points here on how nation-states should regulate pandemics. I will tell you that "I'm not worried at all" is one of those famous-last-words things. You probably don't have to be if you take some precaution...but then again you likely shouldn't call it hysteria and go to Mardi Gras
 
I do not find one-off outliers compelling, I can find them as well: countynewscenter.com/…
 
@JacobGood1 My point isn't about the commonality of the situation, I'm just saying one doesn't want to be "that guy" who wasn't worried at all, when there is a reasonable basis for having concern. Brazil's graves aren't a one-off outlier.
We can make charts talking about all the things we've gotten used to... heart disease and cancer and auto accidents, and take a strictly metric look at it and go "well, it's not so much worse than any of those, and society wasn't shut down for any of that!" Okay, well, maybe not if you are going to be that strictly analytical about it.
And maybe there isn't so much of a difference in the places that do the business shutdowns and social isolation. I could believe that. The core of the problem seems to be warehousing vulnerable populations together and letting it spread in those locations. And the places that aren't practicing shutdowns for Joe Average who wants to go to the beach still have their hospitals and nursing homes adapting.
 
 
4 hours later…
10:34 PM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE thank you.
 

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