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12:09 AM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Awesome, let me see if it can point me to what is going on with the json file
 
12:23 AM
@kealist Not committed just yet, almost there...
 
12:46 AM
posted on April 10, 2020 by hostilefork

Much of LOAD was written in userspace and built on top of TRANSCODE. In R3-Alpha, this meant the scanner was limited in what it could report for errors...it was receiving strings and knew what line on the string it was on, but did not know the filename to report any errors on. Also, it only knew the line offset within the string... so when headers were scanned separately the line numbers

 
1:07 AM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Looks like build is failing in prep right now
Dynamic extensions
Running: C:\Users\kealist\Documents\git\ren-cdir\ren-c3\prebuilt\r3-kealist.exe -qs /C/Users/kealist/Documents/git/ren-cdir/ren-c3/tools/make-natives.r
------ Generate tmp-natives.r
0 natives

------ Generate tmp-generics.r
Running: C:\Users\kealist\Documents\git\ren-cdir\ren-c3\prebuilt\r3-kealist.exe -qs /C/Users/kealist/Documents/git/ren-cdir/ren-c3/tools/make-headers.r
------ Building headers
Generating "Internal API" (via make-headers.r)
WRITING => /C/Users/kealist/Documents/git/ren-cdir/ren-c3/build/prep/include/tmp-internals.h
 
1:28 AM
@kealist Ah, hm. So you are going to run into problems using anything other than the default prebuilt bootstrap build when things change.
There are only two executables kept able to build: the bootstrap build, and the current one.
It would mean crazy combinatorics otherwise (or a commitment to not changing things much; and that's not the point of the work...)
Even though you've sorted out your CRs and such, you still aren't having success with the prebuilt?
It really might be worth figuring out what the bug is if it's not working. :-/ We've patched around bugs in prebuilt before. I do not really feel yet comfortable switching the prebuilt to a current build due to some in-flux decisions, and still finding the occasional UTF-8 Everywhere problem that would be a major nuisance to bootstrap with if any more came up.
Also would like to do a bit of performance tuning first, as committing to a new bootstrap build is something that winds up running over and over and over...
 
 
1 hour later…
2:45 AM
@Atomica Feeling good enough to try out some Rebol? Even just playing on the web console with a new feature and remarking on it counts.
 
 
3 hours later…
6:05 AM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE I'm feeling all right :>)
 
6:26 AM
I'm with @iArnold on this. Without some fairly current, fundamental homogenized doc(s) it's like getting hired at Nasa's Engineering dept in 1968.
"Um, where would I find the RS-68 engine performance data?"
"Ah, in the HGS manual where it's always been."

"And where is the HGS manual?"

or... "I'm trying to load a 42mb data file into a block with Red and it's taken over half an hour so far.. am I missing something?"

"We don't need no trolls around here."
 
@Atomica I can understand people having problems with writing entire programs that have a certain level of fitness-for-purpose. The concepts continue to juggle around, and I find myself very glad that they do get juggled--because I realize just how bad certain choices would be compared to just how good other ones are. So I can't justify rushing ahead to achieve a "practical" outcome because there already exist "practical" languages that are more serviceable for the average task.
 
ie: web console, hmm.. web console.... oh right replpad .. now where was that again.. oh here it is.. https://github.com/hostilefork/replpad-js

Why can't that be in a wiki or ?
We've all done this.
 
Because it's in the upper right hand corner of this chat.
And it's not particularly public, it's intended for those developing the system.
In any case, what I was saying is that for those interested in the principle of the thing, being involved in writing tests or playing with a single construct is quite helpful. I didn't write exhaustive TRANSCODE tests. I wrote some, which is better than none.
But more would be great. Anyway, I just spent time fixing Windows 7 builds due to some quirk. that was an ordeal.
 
I'm following along and read every post.. i kinda get it, and enjoy the logic of what you're trying to accomplish, but as I've said before, there's no way I can help with this low level of work.
 
 
1 hour later…
7:52 AM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Unbelievable. You are amazing HF. Awesome work.
 
 
1 hour later…
8:56 AM
@MarkI AwesomeFork ;-)
@Atomica Yes, the typical response :-) I want to help to put things like this into a wiki, because it benefit my 'work' too. I propose to use the shared repo from r3n, this helps to get it central, yet out of the way from our developing force. And the r3n account is shared, I do not 'own' it.
 
 
2 hours later…
11:24 AM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Gotcha. Looks like the prebuilt is working but i'll confirm when done
Yes, works
I was just using that build you had sent because it worked even after you made fixes
 
11:42 AM
@kealist It works until I change something the make scripts use in interface (e.g. TRANSCODE's interface). Only the prebuilt build signals that it needs adaptation to the change, then the make scripts get changed for it.
 
 
2 hours later…
2:09 PM
@MarkI :-) It wasn't the most fun I've had spending hours after midnight (downloading and setting up a debugger and MinGW build environent on Win7), but at least one useful thing came of it: fixing #ifdefs and learning that --std=gnu89 doesn't #define __STDC_VERSION__...it's a more modern concept, so the absence of a definition can mean C89.
 
 
1 hour later…
3:14 PM
posted on April 10, 2020 by @hostilefork Brian Dickens

@hostilefork wrote: Rebol2 had the property that any refinements after a local would not show up in HELP...but still be available: rebol2>> foo: func [arg /local loc /bar baz] [ print ["Unsurprisingly:" arg] if bar [print ["Surprise:" baz]] ] >> help foo USAGE: FOO arg DESCRIPTION: (undocumented) FOO is a function value

 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE is there an alternative theory (besides CR) about what constitues Invalid characters?
(i) Info: use WHY for error information
** Script Error: contains invalid characters
** Where: to all to-word any either subparse subparse subparse subparse subparse subparse parse load-json do catch either else _ do console
** Near: [...
    to word! val ~~]
** File: scripter.reb
** Line: 328
(that line is EOF) and not related to anything as far as I can tell. The error occurs on line 14 of scripter.reb and no other file has that many lines
 
@kealist It looks like the invalid characters it is complaining about is that you are trying to make a WORD! with spaces in it or something.
Or just TO WORD! "" or something.
 
Must be part of json lib
I'll try to poke at it
 
Wasn't there something about words with spaces at some point?
 
 
1 hour later…
4:31 PM
Yes, the json document has a lot of keys with spaces and I don't think the json lib accounts for those
although it did use to work
so I should say, it hasn't been modified to work with the changes to ren-c
 
@kealist Ren-C hasn't allowed ANY-WORD! with spaces ever, though it was discussed... and I was in favor of it for a fairly long time. But it's always followed R3-Alpha's rule of no spaces, enforced at word creation time. So it may be the JSON has changed to use spaces.
 
The JSON document is like 4 years old, so maybe just changes to JSON lib
 
There's no final decision on the matter just yet, but I do think that when you face these edge cases it's time to pull out ["something like this"]:
But then we probably need obj/"something like this" to be able to work, and it's a can of worms. But the only way anything gets solved is to map it out, draw up rules, etc. <sigh> I'd say "nothing happens overnight" but actually a lot of cool things can, and do, these days. :-)
 
 
2 hours later…
6:34 PM
Ctrl-C seems to be having trouble working. :-/ Annoying, I have to fix that.
Unix signal handling is a nightmare.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Yes, hasn't worked for me in the last few days on Windows
 
@kealist Haven't had long running processes to notice until today. Well, that's new top priority of the moment, because this sucks.
 
7:25 PM
So I see what happened. :-/ The problem is that there's a system-wide "a halt was received" flag that gets hit when you Ctrl-C. It may not be able to handle it right that exact moment--but the evaluator can deal with it when it completes the current instruction.
So what's going on as the console implementation uses the libRebol API more, is that if you are inside code that halts and it does something like return a VOID! value to indicate that, then if you try and test something like if (rebDid("void?", result)) {...} your test will begin to run but before it does the VOID? check, it basically throws an exception saying it was halted.
That could leave you in a leaky state where things you allocated aren't cleaned up. :-/ So as with many other things (IOCTLs, etc.) it's a matter of having some operations that are cancellable and some that aren't. Conservatively, being non-cancellable is good for coherence. But clearly some evaluations need to be cancellable.
 
7:59 PM
I need to make it possible to on-the-spot include the full %sys-core.h on top of a file that was designed to only use the friendly %rebol.h, in order to do invasive debugging in that file...where I can write code that picks cells apart and such, even if it's not intended that API be used in the committed code. That would be very helpful.
 
8:27 PM
> I think we've dodged a bullet by making the "true nothing" null not cause errors on WORD! access, and switched to using an UNSET!-like value for "ornery" response. I was rather led astray by seeing compose [1 (#[unset]) 2] be [1 2] that I believed my new NULL concept was "The REAL unset" that I didn't realize it was much better modeled as "The REAL none!"
 
 
2 hours later…
10:48 PM
I read "PROLOG Rebol" somewhere and it sent weird chills down my spine
 
11:01 PM
i actually like enjoyed Prolog for a wile :)
 
@Morwenn old code someone expressed interest in porting to Ren-C... but I'm more interested in emulation. How goes? Dubstep chiptune of the moment: youtube.com/watch?v=QsgJNYzlA9U
 
wow... I actually enjoyed prolog for a while.
I actually liked prolog for a while.
 
I had a copy downloaded off of a pirate BBS of some commercial prolog on a 286 PC or somesuch, with no manuals. Had a few demos, but not enough to learn how to use it for anything.
It played 20 questions and had a few other things.
 
I remember having had a few classes about PROLOG, finding it interesting yet hard to grasp, then forgetting almost everything about it except that it seemed really cool to solve specific problems :)
That music is cool, just caught myself smiling at it
I've been confined for a few weeks so far, I only left home to see the doc or to go to the pharmacy; I haven't used the opportunity to learn much more about programming but I've been doing a heap of smaller non-tech things that remind me that I'm growing dangerously close to 30 haha
How are you?
 
11:21 PM
@Morwenn Inside with the occasional bout of hypochondria. Sucks when the main symptoms of an illness are the same symptoms as a panic attack. But, getting things done. A rather clever spin on multiple return values, for example.
It still operates fundamentally symbolically on a "part" that you can reuse in other places, a SET-BLOCK! [...]:. It's just as usual, the sliding evaluator (in evaluative contexts) pulls a stunt with it.
Not in an evaluative context? Well, you can do something else with SET-BLOCK!s, as usual.
 
Oh, one main return channel and additional return channels with a destructuring-like syntax?
 
@Morwenn Yes, first slot if you use a block is assigned the same thing as the main return channel. And it has access to know whether you are requesting the additional variables, but they are blanked out before it sees them so they are true outputs
Hence you can do less computation or change the behavior of your function and its main return channel based on being requested additional things.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE I don't really have hypochondria but I'm getting random symptoms and issues, fortunately I don't really stress over it but it can get annoying :/
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE don't SciLab or MATLAB have things like this?
 
@Morwenn The prototype implementation is kind of fascinating, I did it in like...an hour. It's inefficient and certainly needs to be rewritten to be a main evaluator mechanic. But quite a piece of work.
@Morwenn It's hard to say there's ever anything truly "new" under the sun. But if you saw my tcc bootstrap in my talk, the diligence being applied to keeping this dependency contained and bricklike is what makes it a novel artifact.
 
Hum, as expected my once-a-year exposure to Rebol isn't enough to grasp the working of the evaluation
 
11:28 PM
ENCLOSE is the ability to make a variant of a function that can run some code to manipulate its arguments before it runs, and then do post processing on its return result.
It can (among other things) clone the frame of the function and run it multiple times with different parameters, or decide not to run it at all. Its up to the enclosure.
SPECIALIZE is the ability to remove parameters from a function and fix them to values.
 
Damn, that ability to freely manipulate, inspect and evaluate blocks still feels powerful as ever
 
So, what it does to implement the multiple returns is to take the SET-BLOCK! on the left, pipe the variables after the first into a specialization where the "output" marked args are
 
(if you want some jazzy psytrance: youtube.com/…)
 
Then in the enclosure, right before it runs it voids the variables out...runs the function, and then pipes the result into the first arg and makes it the return.
@Morwenn I seek to make "The Minecraft of Programming"
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE isn't that roughly partial application?
Ok, I think I kind of get how it works
 
11:33 PM
@Morwenn Whatever you wish to call it, I call the whole category of "make a function out of these other function(s)"... "function compositions". I use the term loosely.
 
I mean, putting familiar names on somewhat similar concepts helps me to concentrate on the other parts :p
 
@Morwenn Crazy bit fiddle video if anyone ever wants to know the mechanics. At least if I die of coronavirus people won't have to start over.
 
I'm still as bad as ever with consuming tech videos, sorry ^^'
 
@Morwenn Well if anyone ever asks how it works you know there is a video, tell them to look there. :-)
 
Fair :)
Ideally I'd rather you not die of coronavirus if that's a choice though
 
11:38 PM
@Morwenn Appreciated. But, y'know, it would mean I wouldn't have to patch esoteric Windows-7-only read-from-stdin bugs. So it wouldn't be all bad!
 
Ah yes, still having to battle with demons from the past
 
Feels more like the demons are the present...Windows 10 is a monstrosity.
 
I don't know, I do many things with WSL instead of Windows proper now (but ssshhh)
Which is mostly working but sooooooo slow
 
I grew up waiting for floppy disk drives on C64s. I'm willing to wait for the benefit of running Virtual Machines I can snapshot and tear down. It helps when your codebase has few enough dependencies you can build the whole thing while you go to the refrigerator and back.
 
When I need to build our whole library stack from work it pretty much takes the whole day on my laptop (as opposed to 2h at the office)
 
11:45 PM
@Morwenn Incidentally, if you haven't seen it... nice low dependency a-la-carte crypto, recommended. Pure C, just about whatever you need, hashes and elliptic curves and ciphers and abstraction layers for it all if you need more than one. Factored well...originated from TLS for embedded platform: tls.mbed.org/source-code
Ripped all the prior crypto out and replaced it with that stuff, will be doing upgrades over time. But have a pretty interesting BigNum finesse plan coming up, we'll share code with the implementation used for that.
 
Haven't seen it, but it's surely linked to the fact that I don't follow crypto at all, I just hope that the right persons will do the right things where they need to be done :x
 
I didn't follow it, but the more I read it, the more I don't trust it.
 
I wish it didn't matter
But that's not the kind of world we live in
 
Which is somewhere I think Rebol could help... really giving you clear access to the protocol parts. Focusing on clarity about what's going on instead of performance. Letting you make your code more "executable specs".
 
Don't you gave a Formal/Spec Rebol extension yet? :p
Self-formal-proving code is the future
 
11:54 PM
@Morwenn Pretty good for background. I've liked some of Overwerk's stuff, e.g. Need for "I'm just programming, not really listening"
 
Ha, glitch hop and complextro often end up in "gaming music" mixes, so maybe the needs are the same
Looks like I missed quite a few releases of OVERWERK o.o
I'm falling asleep in front of my computer again - I'll call it again, maybe try to say hello again in a few days when I find time between work, games, gardening, cooking and partying :D
 

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