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12:04 AM
We've been dealing with this issue on a much larger scale here in Canada.

https://youtu.be/s_UbmaZQx74
 
12:15 AM
So, the first obstacle is that we don't have tls server mode implemented
if we want to run a https server for the chat server
 
@GrahamChiu Yes, so I think!
 
@giuliolunati so the client is fine, but the server presents a problem
 
12:38 AM
@Feeds Sounds like a good opportunity to build a next-gen Ren-C chat client (whatever that is :)
 
 
3 hours later…
3:36 AM
@Atomica I don't think people really actually care as much about this as it's getting airtime.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE wants a console client as well
Carl had one
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE is going to be busy methinks
 
@GrahamChiu Well it would only take a couple weeks to make something, but the question is, how to do it as a thing we are going to care about. @ingo suggested fitting with matrix.org, and maybe we shouldn't reject that offhand
@Atomica I'm not entirely sure how I feel about Jordan Peterson.
He often raises good points but then there's a meta level of who he's talking to and why and how it's positioned, you can't necessarily analyze him at face value.
So it becomes less about what he's saying and whether it's right or wrong, and more about the why he's saying it and who to. It's complex.
The compelled speech thing is annoying because I don't like having people put words in my mouth and declare it hate speech for what I don't say, yes, that's obviously bad, and we can't have a code of conduct enforcing the idea that you are exercising hate speech for what you didn't say.
But, again, I don't really care about the specifics, it's not an issue I care about at all much really.
So it winds up being a "principle of the thing" issue when the actual material is irrelevant to me.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE I'd rather create an open source R3 client server that is easily self hosted
 
4:08 AM
They won't define "inappropriate content" and it seems that inappropriate content is whenever you and some stay at home mom and a 20 year old with their first tech job doesn't like you. But here's the thing, they delete what you say, and so then it could have been anything... it was inappropriate content, right?
6
Q: What is the meaning of inappropriate content?

programmer_1I got this message while chatting on Stack Overflow: This user has been automatically suspended for posting inappropriate content and cannot chat for ** minutes. When I click on that link it is supposed to show inappropriate content that I have posted. But I can't seem to view that contents...

Could have been anything really. You don't know, because it just says (deleted)
And then they delete the (deleted). What a power trip.
As I said, it's me who was the fool, I appreciate that you guys aren't raking me over the coals with "I told you so"
But I do deserve it.
You can't really talk in a chat room where every other message is removed :-/
Not even counting the messages that the removal notices are removed.
Someone Twittered me this old vid from Jeff (co founder, SE), called it "eerie" lexfridman.com/jeff-atwood
I don't know I thought much one way or another, what Jeff says sounds pretty basic/normal
I did not find it eerie
But having someone in charge here with a head on their shoulders would sure be nice
Like the old days
Redux
193
Q: Joel left, and SE as we know it is dead

LuuklagThe recent blog post, which I don't even want to link to, made it perfectly clear for me. Joel left, and with that SE as we know it died. It will take a while before it's totally gone, but it will go eventually. Now we already saw some cracks appear when Joel was still factually in charge, but ...

....whyyyy!?
Maybe I seem to be disproportionately upset about this, like, "why care, move on".
And yes I have heard that already, thanks for your advice.
And yes, there is no other option, we have no other buttons to push, we're nobody and that has been made quite apparent, and that is hurtful.
 
4:28 AM
It's human nature. The end.

You yourself have threatened to ban me for what could be described as 'inappropriate content'. (Hopefully I don't get banned for this content)
 
@Atomica I started this chat room but took myself out of the moderator list, I can't ban you, I don't trust myself.
 
I learned a long time ago that whoever controls the money has the last say.
 
Well we don't know that's what's happening
But...
Certainly there's a lot of silence and people getting fired
So you have to follow the trail and...
The people remaining as mods are pretty iron fist and don't think they have to explain anything.
 
I'm not sure of their corporate structure, but somewhere in the T&Cs you'll find they have full rights to do whatever they want, regardless of opinion.
 
No accountability whatsoever, which seems to be the pattern.
 
4:31 AM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE they say there that it's a bug if you can't see the deleted comment you own
 
Yes, they can do whatever they want, they're not beholden to any of us, and that has become quite clear.
Bad deal. Maybe we should negotiate better deals in the future.
Lesson learned, I suppose. But yes, I want us to scrape the chat and all the Q&A out.
 
Many good companies have been destroyed by errant decisions like these.. they have the right to die as a going concern.
 
How else can I prove I'm crazy? I need these chat messages.
You can't just delete them all.
 
@Atomica he's not a room owner but can flag a comment of yours to be inappropriate since his rating is over 10k
 
They gave him that right.
Nothing new there.
 
4:34 AM
I do not think discussing the esoterica of SE chat rules is that useful
 
I don't think we need to hear about this anymore
 
We just need out of here, away from these... people.
 
There are appropriate fora for this
 
So, new platform. I say we use a Wasm/Rebol client but I don't really care what the stack is server side.
 
We just need to discuss our exit strategy
 
4:35 AM
And, for good measure, maybe we have a command line client that's kind of like R3 chat was
 
How much time would it take to have server side ssl?
 
Florian's Miaou is really quite nice.
He wanted to make an open source SE chat and he did and it's pretty good
 
I guess we can fake it like altme
 
I mean, we could do worse than just switching to go over to his server and not run one ourselves
I trust him more than SE right now
It's a lazy strategy, we could just jump to Miaou, and I know that isn't really a decentralized solution like I talk about, but it is open source at least
 
I'm not interested in trusting anyone else
Just get burnt
 
4:37 AM
Yeah, back here a year from now
 
Well, that's why I didn't suggest it, and so two no votes okay we don't do it.
He's still cooler than the people in charge at SE at this moment.
But, yeah, in a year, people and money, things change.
Miaou has way more features then SE chat you know
But it was a rip off, he stole the basic layout, he just wanted to make a better open source version
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE do you think we can be tempted by a bit of bling??
 
@GrahamChiu I can be tempted at this point by anyone who says my end game of life will be easy and not harder than the earlier bits.
So, y'know, people should be doing their sales pitches.
Salvation and, commemorative plates? Or something? I got some dollars in my hand.
Jeez, some people don't know how to sell.
Where did you go to salesperson school.
 
So maybe we can use stunned Infront of a R3 TCP server
 
I think having a command line tool that can talk to the server, as well as a Wasm client, sounds a good demo
Most of us will use the Wasm client, but having a shell tool that can do it too, would be a good proof of concept
 
4:46 AM
The server is the hard bit
 
@giuliolunati can probably knock it out in a few days :-)
 
@GrahamChiu What's hard about it?
 
My rule is, we have a web client, and we have a command line client.
So you have to be able to access the chat with or without a browser
That's my only rule
Solve it however you want, but that's the rule.
 
what protocol for the command line client?
 
Probably REST because, honestly, we don't have a better idea
I have a lot of ideas at the language level, but at the network level, I really got nothing
Some half baked ideas, not finished.
Nothing you can take to the bank, so basically do what everyone else is doing
 
4:51 AM
Yeah.
 
Me being an idiot is sort of a theme lately
Whatever.
Nobody is perfect. I edit videos pretty well.
@Atomica well, pity party aside, hope you like some of the videos, I have 3 more
Sorry for being so mean when you showed up but you kind of have to wait a week or two before telling people who work years on things what to do.
It's nice to see you stuck around
Vandalizing your highly upvoted answer into a link-only post is not OK, no matter how terrible SO / SE management currently is. You can add a link to a copy of it on your blog, but removing the content is clearly vandalizing your own posts. — Peter Cordes 6 hours ago
Fight. Or, something. I guess, fight.
No, whatever, I said what I had to say, they did what you would expect.
I'm not going to roll it back, but it validates that I am valuable here, despite what people say
@PeterCordes I'm not going to roll it back, that was a test, to see how long it was and what was said. — HostileFork says dont trust SE 50 secs ago
He's fine, it's okay, he did the right thing.
I just wondered who would do it.
And what they would say.
 
5:09 AM
@Atomica rebol current https is only client and not server
 
If I'm so useless and unimportant why do people rabidly protect my content on the network, eh?
Seems a bit paradoxical, methinks.
Either I'm important or I'm not, which is it.
Dennis quit code golf, which... he's a freaking genius, brilliant: codegolf.stackexchange.com/users/12012/dennis
Ganesh who was an intern at Microsoft Research, I don't... I don't think he was my intern. We shared an office but I don't think I filled out his reviews. Anyway, he's mad as hell too, and one of the best Haskell programmers around: stackexchange.com/users/34335/ganesh-sittampalam
>*"The recent actions of Stack Exchange have been reprehensible. The lack of professional conduct, the tone deaf way they've been dealing with the community, and the unfair and unjustified way they've dealt with Monica Cellio."*
Yeah, well, we shared an office for a bit back at Microsoft, and... YES, screw these people! They are not acting properly!
So... what he said.
I will ask again: WHY?
Seems we will have no answer, because asking for answers gets you banned
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE I presume you posted your answer under whatever copyright was in force at that time
 
@GrahamChiu Oh they like relicensing your content and not asking about it
868
A: Stack Exchange and Stack Overflow have moved to CC BY-SA 4.0

MakyenI like CC BY-SA 4.0. IMO, it's better than 3.0. I'd prefer to use it. I've chosen to use 4.0, instead of 3.0, on projects of my own. However, my preference doesn't affect the current situation with respect to existing content on Stack Exchange. Stack Exchange doesn't have the right to unilateral...

Anyway, whatever, I knew it would get rolled back
 
Yeah. I saw that
 
I was just curious how long it would take and what name would be on it.
 
5:20 AM
You granted them a license to use your work. Can you now withdraw that license?
 
Took about 6 hours or whatever.
No
 
Yet they unilaterally changed the license you granted them?
 
I don't really care about that issue though the fact that they did it without asking is unnerving
 
Seems that is possible that you can withdraw your work due to copyright violation
 
I sense a pattern
I could but I'm not really interested in being petty here.
I only erased the post to see who would put it back and in six hours someone did and complained at me
 
5:26 AM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE it's not being petty. It's one of the only actions that users can take as a bargaining chip
 
Technically speaking, the post being there was a copyright violation to start with
I linked to a blog article, which was copied whole text to the site, and the terms of my blog are different than SE's license
Basically I could sue
 
500000 users suing could be a problem for them
 
Yes well this was a very obvious copyright violation
Maybe instead of working for a living I should file a lawsuit
They sure haven't been nice to me lately
So, maybe benefit of the doubt is a bad strategy
Maybe... suing them, yes.
 
Monica sued and won
 
5:30 AM
Same thing
 
Perhaps a class action lawsuit would be more cost effective.
 
Well, it's not a bad idea. I guess that post actually is a pretty good example
Of content stolen from my site
At least I'd get to talk to people, what with the lawyering
 
So who posted that content?
 
Somebody copied it off my site
Not an SE employee
But, still, y'know, laws are laws
 
Well that's less important. They're still responsible for content
I think you first need to notify them of a copyright violation
 
5:33 AM
If Monica can win defamation
I can win copyvio
 
Ianal
 
But the thing is, they can just delete the post and say "okay resolved"
So I have to prove some kind of damage
 
Yes
And pay damages
 
I wasn't serious, this isn't what I want to do with my time.
Monica had them because of what they said
I do not have a case really that anyone would care about, that was just joking
They settled because... I dunno why, I mean, she's a nice person and I think she likes to believe that there's a good force behind these servers, but... she just quit you know
They said she could "re-apply" under the new rules to be a moderator
She did not apply, and now she's leaving period
Re-apply? Are you... kidding? Tone deaf. Insane.
 
They can't unilaterally alter the licence under which one contributed content
Either they reverse this change or presumably they have to take it all down
 
5:38 AM
I can't even believe it because not just Lightness, who I argued with back on C++ questions, but Scott Hannen, also, like... these kind of irritating people are... like, all in agreement? This is crazypants.
Even the people I don't like on SE are pissed off!
Something really crazy is happening.
Oh, Lightness isn't that bad.
Scott is. You know, when Robin Williams killed himself, Scott was quite vocal about how drug addicted people who kill themselves don't deserve any fanfare. They should be derided and not revered. Ask him about it. True story. He said that. Also, I have other data on him. Bad person! Bad!
But, for whatever reason, he is also involved in this critique of SE at this moment in time. But he is bad. Lightness, well, he's just a grump.
Anyway 6 hours to have a post reconstituted.
 
6:40 AM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE the enemy of your enemy is not your friend
 
7:24 AM
was devbase ever made public? Or was it closed src?
 
 
2 hours later…
9:43 AM
Now tested a bit again but this error message says to me that the first issue that has to be resolved is not the connection but somehow has to do with R3 lacking things:
** access Error: missing port scheme: odbc ** Where: fail cause-error else _ make open do catch either else _ do console ** Near: [... make error! [ type: err-type id: ... ] ~~] ** File: tmp-boot.r ** Line: 4093
 
10:12 AM
So my highest voted post on SE is now deleted. And I'm happy. The content license argument ended with some diamond mod going "well, we can resolve this by deleting it". And...yes. They no longer get my post. If only I could do that with all my posts.
But, that post was different, it was copied off my blog by someone else.
Everything I posted on SE as myself is licensed under their license.
So, no real leverage for any other post
Anyway, it makes me happy to have that on my blog and not their site, and I wish all the rest of my content could be that way, but it's not.
So, not much leverage in the lawsuit department now, that was kind of it. Solved by just deleting the post.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE that's a bit premature. You'd lose all your points and then wouldn't be able to chat here when we don't have the new system in place!
what happens if you delete your account?
do all your posts, votes, and points vanish?
 
I think I lost the points for that when it was deleted, so like 1400 or whatever.
 
if you delete your account?
253
Q: How can I delete my account?

SauronHow can I delete my Stack Exchange account(s)? Also, What happens to my content? Can I request it be deleted as well? What if I'm suspended, rate-limited, or banned from posting questions or answers? What will happen to my votes? Will other users be impacted? Why wasn't my account deleted immed...

Content stays
Because you've licensed it to them
 
10:34 AM
@GrahamChiu Well that post was an exception because I did not license it. It was my highest upvoted post, and it was copy/pasted from my blog to the answer.
And they cut the Gordian knot by deleting it.
Which is fine.
Now if you want to read it, you read it on my blog.
As was originally intended. But that's the only post of that nature I had.
I tolerated the theft for a while, but then when I was less happy, I decided to get uppity, so now it's gone.
Problem...solved?
@Atomica ^-- A bit of Radiohead for you.
 
 
2 hours later…
1:00 PM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Uhu?
 
 
4 hours later…
5:21 PM
@GrahamChiu Right. Welcome to the "free" platform model, which nearly all social media is based on.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE It's a sign of the times. "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
 
5:51 PM
posted on January 29, 2020 by Oldes

As we don't have any syntax for vector and its variants, I think it would be nice to enhance construction syntax a little bit, to support short vector variant creation. For example: >> #[ui8! 3] == make vector! [unsigned integer! 8 3 [0 0 0]] >> #[si16! [1 2 3]] == make vector! [integer! 16 3 [1 2 3]] Supported numeric types could be: si8! si16! si32! si64! ui8! ui16! ui32! ui6

 
 
4 hours later…
9:54 PM
@Edoc So true.
 
10:33 PM
We see you, @earl! :-)
After getting chat banned for 24 hours for innocuous remarks called "inappropriate content" (one such sentence was "I can't even put together a way in which the sentence you just spoke makes any sense" => (deleted)) I am very much ramping up my irritation at how arbitrary "inappropriate content" flags are, and how bad it is to just see "(deleted)" as if you could have said anything. Leaves it up to the imagination, not the judgment of the individual.
Anyway, there was a user banned for a profile picture of a man and a woman hugging, as "inappropriate content", not @earl, someone else.
But for all we know, we don't know.
I like @ingo's idea. We hook up to an existing chat protocol, we have a web version and a command line version. Don't expect much at first.
It would be nice if we didn't have to write the client and server at the same time.
 
10:52 PM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Maybe it could start really minimal? Like just reading/posting small text files to a server instead of a databse, letting the client do most of the work?
 
@Edoc I'm okay with minimal, I didn't actually have much of a problem with r3 chat (other than that Kaj was rather disagreeable)
And, AltME wasn't that bad, and it really looks a lot like Slack if you look at it now
I guess hindsight is 20/20 and if I knew how all this was going to go back in the day, I probably would have favored more Rebol2 compatibility and using AltME
I overestimated society, I think.
Well, live and learn, I say.
 
Hey quick complement
 
Just a reminder: I do a lot more than this. And it influences my decisions in such matters.
 
I used to struggle a lot with PARSE, often hacking away at it until I'd get stuff to work the way I need.
 
@Edoc And generic quoting helped? :-)
 
10:59 PM
Nowadays, it seems like I can just try a thing or two and it almost always works out pretty close to what I had in mind. And it was NEVER like that with R2 PARSE.
Yes, generic quoting does help!!
 
And you realize that when you can quote a thing, that then that thing is a thing.
Which means you need to be able to quote that thing
 
It's really really f'ing helpful to have something as useful os PARSE work more reliably.
2
I love in Ren-C that everything is quotable
 
Yep, well, we have a sort of decision point to deal with regarding variable assignments in the parse dialect and LET
I am panning set-word auto gathering, it's not a great idea
It's not the worst idea, but it has shown flaws
 
Everything is a value in rebol, and it has an active and inert (data) version. Beautiful and consistent
 
Because SET-WORD! is used for a lot of purposes, and you don't really want the function maker walking the subtree and picking up all set words
So, allowing set-word in set x: integer! and such, was probably wrong headed
I have this concept I call "virtual binding" and, no, I haven't solved it just yet. But I think I know how to
With virtual binding, a wavefront can follow the evaluator for looking up bindings
 
11:04 PM
You always have ideas in the hopper
 
Well I did derived binding
And, really it's about the same, sort of
Rebol had this rather big weak spot, several really, and one is that since bindings point to the exact instance of what they refer to
Each object instance had to copy every function body in the object
Because otherwise, you couldn't be referring to the instance data, because the pointer would be wrong
That's...a rather...large flaw.
Like, if you tell that to anyone remotely computer sophisticated they will go "uh, so if I make a thousand objects, each of which has 20 methods, but the body is blocks of code, I have to...copy the method body for each...instance?"
 
JFC it's a lucky universe that you stumbled upon rebol
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Is that partially responsible for VID being so poky?
Bec damn if you loaded up something like a nested file directory/hierarchy of folders, etc. it really wasn't usable.
 
@Edoc I don't know, but this is a cool test: github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/blob/…
I feel like that's code you should be able to write and have it work, and it does, nicely so, there.
Try that in Red :-P (or Rebol2, or R3-Alpha...)
 
That's very cool, need some examples like that in the code showoff that @iArnold put in the forum.
gotta run
 
@Edoc TTYL. Anyway, would be nice if Andreas stopped by and said hi, so, @earl, if you have it in you please do.
 
11:51 PM
@GrahamChiu

- SSL/TLS server mode is not supported.

- Certificate handling is not supported... no mechanism exists to access the certificate chain from REBOL scripts, and client certificates cannot be defined.

The thought that after twenty years, this would still be an issue never even crossed my mind. So the server side isn't 'difficult' at all, you have no choice but use some other stack.
I was wondering why the Red gang suggests using Python simple http server on the back end instead of Cheyenne... now I know.. duh
 

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