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12:31 AM
@Edoc You should be able to PARSE INTO groups. :-/
‌>> parse [[1 + 2]] [and block! into ['1 '+ '2] end]
== []
‌
‌>> parse [(1 + 2)] [and group! into ['1 '+ '2] end]
== []
@Edoc what seems the problem?
I really feel like people who have not come to appreciate generic quoting just don't get it, and need their head examined.
 
1:04 AM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Maybe it was the technique I was using (I will have to look into it tomorrow). In my case, I have nested group!s of arbitrary depth (like LISP, or MS Excel Macros) which I was trying to unwind and convert into block!s. It is also cool to use PARSE INTO to manipulate nested blocks of dialect code with group!s for COMPOSEing.
Off the top of my head, I was doing something like:
Input: [concat(#filename “:” some-fn(now/date “-“ now/time))]
rule: [set w word! | set I issue! | set t text! | set g group! Into rule | skip]
parse input [some rule]
And I just wasn’t descending into the nested group!s
 
@Edoc Well always post the specifics, and if it's a bug I'll... fix it. :-)
Editing David's other talk right now, and... I think it's just going to be an hour and 15 minutes long. Not a lot that can be taken out. But I speed him up to the demo in under a minute
People watching the video aren't going to be super patient listening to a lot of talk with file folders on the screen. Has to get to the whizzy bit in that first minute.
 
1:22 AM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE And I do like generic quoting very much— I think it’s more consistent and intuitive, actually. I need to expand my fluency in all of these new areas of rebol expression.
 
1:43 AM
When I'm done with the videos, I will return to coding, and I will return with a bit of a vengeance. I think I've allowed some doubts to settle.
I'm changing my tune on safety at a core level. I think this post summarizes what I think now: "Make Your Own Safety"
Some things I tried to do were likely wrong-headed in terms of putting safety mechanics into the core. This manifested in all kinds of ways, like not taking functions as arguments by default. The benefit of this kind of thing has been marginal at best.
I can't really think of a case where it's helped anything. I can think of several cases where it has been annoying.
So what we need is a system where if you get that kind of concept in your head as maybe useful, it's easy to do.
2
The more I think of the system as something you personalize, easily and fast, the cleaner the core can be.
 
2:04 AM
We need less code, not more. The build system has to get smaller. The C files need to get smaller. It's time to start chopping anything which has not proven itself worthwhile.
3
 
 
3 hours later…
5:02 AM
StackExchange has completely lost its mind. We have to solve this. By leaving.
They can do whatever it is they are doing, but it's not rational.
 
5:13 AM
Nut jobs have taken the helm and everyone with a brain has voted with their feet, it's time we do it too.
People I used to argue with, e.g. Lightness, we may have our differences... but... at this point those differences are eclipsed by the viruses that have taken this network.
> "This is bullying. It is an outrageous abuse of power and should not be taken lightly by anyone. We must not stand for this kind of behaviour."
 
5:32 AM
A lot of us are mad right now so we have to think about what the right answer is.
And @Morwenn I'm sure you have complex feelings about this but it would really help to have your insight right now.
But if you are busy, I guess you are busy.
 
5:49 AM
Man, where is Joel when you need him.
I just can't believe someone as smart as he is would let this happen, it's freaking me out.
Jeff, well, he wanted to write blog entries about cat feeders and make Discourse, and we like Discourse, so, whatever. Fine. Feed a cat, make a software, we only live for a while on the planet and it seems he kind of is doing his thing.
But Discourse is not as important as StackExchange
And Joel needs to steer the ship, and he's not, and we're mad.
Investor inshmestor, I'm sure he can rewire it so the investors aren't in charge.
They're chat banning me now for asking any questions, and that is what happened to Monica earlier, if you were paying attention
See all the people putting Monica in their usernames?
She had to SUE them. And they deleted all the links they could find on this site to the gofundme to get her a lawyer
Well eventually they settled out of court because... whatever.
To be fair, it really probably is okay if you run servers to not run ads for a campaign to sue you
I think that's probably ok
You shouldn't be paying for ads for a "sue us" campaign
So anyone griping over deleting the ads should probably focus on other things
Fairness is sure a complex concept.
Anyway, maybe I'm stupid thinking that if Joel just picked up the phone we could fix this.
Just set things back a few years, tweak a thing or two
We'd be buddies again
The powers that be say, no, who are you, no not gonna happen
Sad. :-(
 
6:04 AM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE if you believe he's as good a guy as you think he is, then the reason he hasn't replied or intervened is likely for legal reasons. And then further discussions are moot.
 
I don't know.
He's a smart guy.
 
If, however, he is not so constrained, then you've all been clearly disappointed.
 
I know that.
Good, well, that's not as easy to measure.
 
I presume that there's nothing stopping you from contacting him on his twitter account
 
I trusted him because he seemed to do good things.
He did not respond
 
6:05 AM
people do a mixture of things
 
They deleted my request for his contact info
Because of how much of a nobody I am, that's been... established
Yeah, I know. I'm nobody, thanks.
Rub it in, it really seems people are doing that a lot, lately.
 
if he failed to even respond on his twitter account, then I'd say the second scenario applies. He got his money, and he's out
 
Well, I thought he was more than that
Not so easy to be a gay CEO of a pretty badass system made by programmers, for programmers.
But he seemed to be doing it, and, I want Joel to write me a personal message
About how useless I am
Without that, I dunno.
Maybe I'm not going to accept the messages.
 
He's still posting on meta.discourse.org so he's alive
Last posted 9 hours ago
 
Who is a Catija? What's a rubiksmoose? None of these people mean anything to me. Why are they in charge.
Sorry to turn the "who are you" around, but, well, turnabout is fair play.
I got banned off of meta chat earlier.
You know what got me banned?
"The idea that the sentence you just spoke means anything is actually scary to me."
I was banned for saying that.
The sentence I was criticizing was
"What flow? We were talking about cultural dietary restrictions and you started talking about voluntary fad diets."
I just said, that, they were seeming incomprehensible to ME while they were calling me incomprehensible.
"we were talking about cultural dietary restrictions and you started talking about voluntary fad diets"
I think it is fair to fear being banned over this.
Like, this is Stross-level shit
And I don't want to live in a Charles Stross book, I have... other things... to do
So getting banned for saying "The idea that the sentence you just spoke means anything is actually scary to me." is as scary as it sounds.
And, yes, fine, I live in a Charles Stross book
Whatever
You have to fill 24 hours in a day
Anyway, I'm declaring war on these people, stealing my work
And the work of others
You remember that goofy Tom whoever guy, Lightness?
He's pissed off too.
Really we are all pretty mad.
Volunteering your time to build a database you kind of want the people to y'know, be better than you are
We're weak, we are and we aren't, we want a bigger system to catch us when we fall
So when we see it fail, like fail hard, we get grumpy
And then you're like, "well I only know how to do two tricks" and the fact is those two tricks don't put you in charge of anything
So, we're a little pissed off.
Anyway, it seems the only people who aren't mad are young people who think SE rep gets them a job.
And SE wants them. Not us.
Writing is on the wall.
Yeah, I don't really have much of a regard for time. I just write down what I see.
Can you believe this bullshit. These losers, who are about to lose all of the talent that made this site anything, and making real hard core enemies.
Oh. So let's see. Some guy in a dress is going to write all the content? Oh. Fine, Sara Chipps. Fine banning Catija. You are a bunch of no talent losers and everyone with talent has their lasers on you. You see it. It's emerging. Fight is on. Let's go! C'mon. Look, if you can get me and Lightness on the same page you really did something wrong, I can't stand that guy, so if we agree... you really screwed up.
I feel like such a fool for advocating this place.
And @GrahamChiu is going to be all "I told you so"
Lightness got banned for 7 days
Back in the day I would have liked that, because he's a jerk, but now, I'm like, mad
Don't ban my brother!
Well I'm only saying that because of the corporate BS
I don't like him, I just... well, y'know. I'm saying don't ban him.
Different sentiment!
You can not like someone and say the ban is unjust.
Oh fine, I like him.
You got me
Only when I'm drunk! When I'm not drunk, I don't care for him.
He is a bit of a jerk.
Look, people come to programming from a lot of different places.
And yes, maybe you are a kid in India and maybe your "teacher" is giving you Turbo Pascal manuals
But we should not be mad about it, it's our opportunity to show them something else, don't yell at them.
I think Lightness tended to be grumpy to children
Not their fault
Being smart is a gift and a privilege, don't hold it over people's heads
You were given that. Give it in equal share.
Sometimes, he... well, he goes off
You are given a gift, learn to give it in turn. How hard is that.
Not hard.
Says the banned user. :-/
I'm pretty awful the network says.
Same network that fired Shog. So, here's what shog said about us being pissy:
He said, we should understand that people are under constraints
And stop making it hard for them.
Well, maybe everyone needs a new job
I understand the legalese is getting tight, lawsuits and such
But that's not what we signed up for.
Anyway, we ditch SE
They're not talking to us
So, new plan for 2020
And, let them do... whatever they feel like doing, which is apparently scaring anyone with talent away
Sad, sad, I like Joel
But the grapevine is saying he's complicit in this, I do not like that narrative
not the Joel I sort of imagined by virtual barely know the guy construction things
I had a Joel in my mind who is not this Joel
Kind of a strong change the world Joel
Yeah Jeff wants to write blogs about cat feeders, that's Jeff, fine
And Discourse doesn't suck that bad. It's okay.
But Joel, I dunno
I had...
hopes
Isn't there now an automatic thing here?
To tell me I'm nobody?
I see SEND and UPLOAD
I don't see the NOBODY button. Hmm
 
7:24 AM
StackOverflow is dead and I hate to be the one to break it to us. It was a good project, with good bones, and the thing is that... well, every high rep user is getting banned now, some say it's money-based for an IPO.
Doesn't really jibe with how I think about things, I think there's something else afoot, but I tend to look for weird exceptions.
You can say a very benign sentence now and get banned, which, it's starting to look... computational, some kind of hack.
And I'm pretty good at identifying hacks.
Anyway, it's just an inconvenience, I liked the idea of trusting this system, and now, blah, can't. Like I don't have enough to worry about.
I am busy doing other things and so dealing with this horrid perversion of a system that I would throw myself in front of a train to protect, well, apparently, Joel can't even write a blog to save it. Sigh.
 
8:09 AM
The problem of kicking/muting high rep users is that they don't come back
There's open source chat
 
Death to StackExchange.
 
it's just a pain to use our limited resources to start hosting a chat server
 
Yes, pain, but
Death to StackExchange
 
we can simply disengage from SO but continue to use the chat
 
No, using the chat is a kind of informal validation
 
8:12 AM
Or, we can go back to Altme
 
We have to invalidate this unaccountable and adversarial network.
 
which is active
 
Burn this place down. Everyone with a half a brain cell is burning it.
 
it's a bit black boxy but so is rebol
 
No, Rebol does not need it
Burn this piece of crap to the ground
 
8:14 AM
@GrahamChiu I sure hope so that old stuff is overwritten by the new stuff ;-)
 
so, I'll leave it to you @HostileForksaysdonttrustSE to setup a chat server
 
And if we lose the chat so be it, really the only things worth keeping are the bookmarks.
Well, they are tyrants, a few young people who are the last 5 people left here.
 
the tower of babel has fallen
 
Everyone with IQ points changed their names and is leaving.
Maybe this is the plan, we're doing what Joel wants, because he might have known
We kill it now
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Right, then have to find or build a new chat place. (gitter is no alternative, was bought by MS if I remember correctly)
2
 
8:16 AM
Anyway, there are horrible people in charge now, and we should just leave them an empty boat and let them try and steer it
And hit an iceberg. Or whatever. They are godawful.
Sink them. Sink this domain, sink this project.
No one is at the wheel, this is a bunch of idiots.
You have my authorization.
Sad, irritating, I am really mad.
Don't trust people, they are garbage.
It's another domain hijack scam and I can't deal with this.
I have a lot on my mind.
So last thing I want to worry about is... this... ugh
Again?!?!!
Blah first it was protein chains and then domain names and now... AAA
Dammit.
They are banning me on meta
For basic sentences. So I now get it.
I know how this works and I don't want to do what I have to do because...
I guess I like life how it is, I don't want to think of everything as a number
But, the push is coming, and so... fine.
Push me and it happens. Fine. Fine.
Do they have to be so obvious?
GrrrrrrrRRRR!
 
Well, it's just gotten too bad to even talk about.
 
So, now the high ranking people who were the target of this article are now feeling the heat
 
All the high ranking people have left
 
it seems to me to be a problem of a lack of democracy
 
8:27 AM
There's a mutiny but the few people left see a power vacuum
They're kids
 
people with high ranking became petty tyrants
 
They see an opportunity
Yeah they're godawful
 
it's like a corporation, the more shares you have, the more power you have for votes
 
Tyrants, children suddenly promoted into executive rank, and they suck
 
we should have a system where everyone is equal
 
8:28 AM
Time to burn this thing down, we should not be implicitly accepting it
 
reputation should not give you extra powers
 
Well I am not opposed to that
 
well, it's unfair
because you started earlier .. you get more power
 
I think that it seems reasonable
 
that's inherently unfair
 
8:29 AM
That the more a network trusts you, the more powers you have
That seems reasonable
I would make a non-centralized network do the same
So not going to be calling them out on that, because I like that part
 
No, I disagree
 
Well in a decentralized platform
 
once you prove you're not a troll you should all have equal rights
 
The people you respect most, you don't want them to be able to edit?
 
it's like the communist party
 
8:32 AM
Well I'm not a troll and a bunch of piece of crap nobodies are treating me like I'm a troll, with the argument that they can't understand anything I'm saying.
I'm more coherent than those nobodies.
Anyway, they won't respond to anything I say with the excuse that they do not UNDERSTAND what I am saying.
Then they ban me.
So genius.
No, sorry, this is what spammers do. You ask them to turn around on the video cam, they say what is turning around. Then you realize no one video'd their back. This is a spam world. Found them.
They are banning me the moment I ask critical questions, we found them, let's upload and leave.
I have better things to do with my time.
Also let's find Joel, he may still be alive
I don't have time for spambots, but I'd like to find him.
 
the problem with giving people with high points extra powers is that life is not a game of power ups. It seems like the whole place is organised like a multiplayer game
 
^-- not a joke, I found spambots.
Well, I deserve a cookie or something.
 
just because you can answer questions doesn't mean you are a rational person
 
Easy Fork! We will find a new place and everything will be allright again.
 
and fair
 
8:38 AM
I penned up my exploration on the r3n wiki github.com/r3n/ren-c/wiki/POC-View-Linux-Exploration
 
Yes, we will be fine
 
See what we did here
we basically made everyone a room owner
regardless of their Rebol fu
 
But the fact that banning privileges are given to a few teenagers who can't even code, and they ban you for "inappropriate content" when nothing at all inappropriate is said
Means the lunatics are running the asylum at this point
Everyone is quitting and it's very vocal, and I have to quit too
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE that's a totalatarian system in place now
 
Youth can't handle the truth. The truth hurts, real life hurts sometimes.
 
8:39 AM
it reflects the political state of the USA
 
Look, it's not even the s/he thing
It's the complete disconnect about how things work here.
 
It's clear that the system that SO is based on has descended into the same fate of all communist systems
because you elevate some people over others
 
And me getting banned for innocuous statements is just a microcosm of what got Monica fired
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE that's totalitarianism
 
I say blah blah, banned 30 minutes
But I don't get paid so who cares
Well they had to get sued before they started caring
 
8:42 AM
We need a new system based on the worker's collective model
 
They could not fire you! Boy would they love the chance to fire you! :-P
 
Yeah well I think you have to hire someone before you fire them
(checks mail) nope, no paycheck.
SE will have a hard time firing me.
Anyway you are free to go read the meta transcript of me getting kicked off chat
 
well, don't have to read it
 
By basically whimsy of a few kids
 
I'll accept your version of it
 
8:45 AM
No, read it, please.
 
anyway, a new chat system needs to not have elevated users
 
Well you can't read my "inappropriate content" posts.
 
a person who joined 20 years ago has the same rights as the person who joined yesterday
 
Which basically amounted to challenging the room owners
Hey, y'know
If a teenager has room mod rights on a room you are talking in
Don't call them out
It's "inappropriate content"
 
You're talking about Greta Thunberg?
 
8:47 AM
Don't even know why I'm complaining about this.
I was a teenager too, but I never had mod rights on a chat room
Who knows what I would have done.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE so the transcript has been censored?
 
@GrahamChiu I say innocuous statements erased and then used as tool for giving me 30 minute timeouts.
To be honest, I kind of enjoyed the time.
I listened to great music by brilliant minds, such a contrast to the petty losers I had to maybe talk to or not.
The timeout was good.
Time to appreciate genius.
Instead of stupidity.
30 minutes isn't all that long, but it was long enough to listen to brilliance and watch them flail at non existent conversation
My friends are brilliant, why would I trouble myself with idiots.
Something about me... gives too much credence... to idiots.
It's a problem I have and I need to think about it.
Trying to talk in plain talk to these meta whoever is left, they're banning me for just trying to say "hi" and they're like "you said hi wrong, ban"
Those people aren't real. They are fake people. Why do I need fake people to approve of me?
Sara Chipps. Not a real name if you look at it.
Her blog article was good but... then... she did bad things.
How do you process that.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE if you really want to emmigrate, we need a place to move to
 
We are moving, SE has made it clear, even the people I used to argue with are on strike now.
You remember Tom (Lightness)
We used to argue but. Well, I guess that's water under the bridge compared to current things.
We are just all kinds of mad.
Like, they've stolen our work.
There was a trade, an understanding, in place.
That understanding is not any longer in effect.
And we are upset.
 
moving to where
 
9:02 AM
Distributed.
 
at present you're just ranting
 
No more central systems, and I don't mean we have to get all cryptogibbly
Just...you disconnect a node, that node can re-federate
 
well, you need to explain the model a bit better
 
We don't have to burn out earth's entropy/gravity to do it
Just, if you leave you take your data with you
You do not even need encryption for that
Much less burn out the power production of the planet you live on
I'm just saying this, because while I understand crypto, I think it's nuts
Walk before you can run, and humans have not really demonstrated walking
 
well, if it's a new model that you're talking about, I at least need more explanation
what constitutes your data anyway?
 
 
7 hours later…
4:10 PM
Hate to say it but something AltME-like would have been better. I made a mistake in endorsing this system, and now everyone is leaving it. Shog says stop yelling at people: twitter.com/shog9/status/1217542885605662720
 
4:23 PM
But I'm not really sure that not yelling at people will solve what's going on.
There's some acquisition or IPO or something we don't know about that is driving this.
@GrahamChiu A decade of thoughts. All coherent? Admittedly, no, but still a lot of data.
 
5:03 PM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE @GrahamChiu maybe we could be interested in that?
 
@giuliolunati I empathize with that effort, and maybe having a deliberate non-profit agenda would change some things. But I really think it is time for a decentralized approach. This talk is very good, and if you have a bit of time maybe worth watching: FreedomBox
 
Just to put it here: http://matrix.org , federated network of servers. http://riot.im/app a web app for said network, there are also mobile clients.
There is a rebol room, which at least was bridged to some rebol IRC room at one time, though really quiet.
My rebol client for the network isn't even crawling, though.
Current blocks: I haven't found a public server which has open CORS. My test-server does not have an ssl-cipher in common with rebol (it's based on nginx so it should be possible to add somewhere).
rebol doesn't like read to url! {server.dom?json={...}} (everything in curlies seems to be dropped), and the server doesn't handle read to url! enhex {server.dom?json={...}} (it sniffs, wether theres an open curly bracket, and seems unable to detect it, when enhexed).
 
5:18 PM
@ingo Well, it's a good domain name, at the least. I would like what we use to be Rebol based.
And now we can support the high codepoint cat :-)
 
The server part is far from a rebol target, though ...
:-)
 
I'd like to scrape the content out of here. Even if it makes me look crazy, it's what happened, so let's grab it.
Looks like scraping is the only option.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE I know, NIH and all, but still an option wihich could connect to a wider community. And it is somewhat REST based, so connecting a Rebol based solution there would still be an option.
 
Well I need to write the New Years post about agenda before February but I hope to have all videos edited
And that will lay out what I think needs to happen in 2020
Changing the communication platform is part of it now
Yes, it feels a bit retro, and AltME-ish
Or r3 chat-ish
But maybe that was right the first time around just didn't have quite the right technical basis.
"The wheel is invented so many times because it's a very good idea. I'm more worried about things that are invented only once."
 
Well, I liked r3 chat. Rebol IOS could have been great.
 
5:26 PM
Well, looks like we are being forced out of here. Everyone who's anyone is ditching SE
I may not be a cool kid, but I am in the know enough to know the cool kids are out.
Firing Shog is the last straw, if there were any straws left
And it's hard not to feel like I roped everyone into this dumpster fire. :-/ Sorry.
Joel was someone I thought of as a bit of a visionary but I guess there are factors involved here I do not understand.
I really don't get this. Something beyond my understanding is happening.
So, new plan. By middle of this year we should not be using this site.
@ingo If we use matrix.org I still want the client to be Rebol-based.
@GrahamChiu tried building a GUI Rebol chat client for SE back when. Anyway, I mentioned Qt Lite...which is being actively maintained, and is now the basis for Lubuntu: qt.io/blog/2017/05/31/qt-lite-qt-5-9-lts
I might take a week or two to rebuild Ren Garden against Qt Lite and with modern libRebol
Just to have that around, for purposes of pointing and going "hey, look at that"
In case anyone thinks Red and GTK is anything worth looking at.
I feel a bit like Homer Simpson when he sits on the chair and it breaks, and he says "ACME Chair Corporation, YOU'RE ON MY LIST!" and then he pulls out this giant long list and writes ACME Chair Corporation at the bottom.
So people freeze frame it to see what all is on the list.
It's very long and scrolls by so fast you can't read it :-)
 
5:43 PM
Just catching up now. Could we get a WASM clone of this chat system going? I don't see why we couldn't have the data/logs in cloud storage, and the client pulls down the current snapshot of chat (a serviceworker polls for updates), and user can pull down older data.
 
@Edoc Miaou is higher quality and open source. But it's hard enough to run a forum.
SE is so five years ago.
And literally everyone is leaving.
Except people in their early 20s who are at their first job
Who think the power vacuum is an opportunity
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Ok. Just thinking of a future vision. I don't interact with any other projects/forums here, so I mainly just care about the people here in this small community.
 
Well I am setting a sort of guideline that we get off by mid-year with a new place for me to ramble.
I'm no longer going to participate in the sites run by the organization that is here.
I think focusing on the web build is the only sane strategy. So a web client.
If I do the Qt Lite thing it's just because I'm curious and want to rebuild a cross platform system to see how it might work or if it raises issues
And yes, we can probably get a travis build of a Qt Lite system going, but I do not wish to tend bugs on that.
I asked Shixin for the code for his Rust bridge but he didn't send it. :-/
Perhaps I should thank him for not sending it.
Anyway, by mid this year we need to be using a Rebol-based client for chat and not be dependent on this place.
There's a lot of banning going on but nobody has banned me talking here... yet
I've gotten a lot of "you don't matter, go away" vibes. I don't matter enough to ban. That's a bit of an insult in its own way.
Other people, who are differentiated in the sense that they do matter, are getting bans.
I post "inappropriate content" and get 30 minute bans. Nothing I said justifies "inappropriate content". This is what happens when your website is taken over by children.
You get a button, you push it, because you can.
Anyway, this is not be being weird, it's a mass exodus. And it has to do with a rotten power structure which people are no longer going to accept.
 
6:56 PM
I feel so dumb it's not even funny.
 
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