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4:49 AM
"targeting binaries for older versions of their systems from a newer one is not a high priority." -- it's not a "not high priority", it's an exlicit non goal. — Employed Russian 9 hours ago
^-- open hostility (+ downvote) to the concept one try and make an executable that can run on pre-2018 Linux using a 2018 Linux. They don't even want to talk about the idea. <sigh> "I know I'm going to hear comments from you: "it's no problem, just do it, works great, it's how it's done nowadays, the standard of practice, everyone does it, you're old fashioned, ignore the overhead, memory is cheap, blah blah blah. Sorry: no. No!"
 
 
5 hours later…
10:17 AM
@giuliolunati I'm gathering some internal strictness in the Chrome/Firefox browsers that has happened is making it so that pthreads cannot work when not served over https. :-/ The latest Firefox developer build is actually giving an error: "TypeError: WebAssembly.Memory cannot be cloned in this context" (previously it would just hang)
The near term patch: make load-r3.js detect if being served over http, and use that as one of the criteria for falling back on the asyncify version. Longer term solution: update TLS to work bidirectionally so that httpd can serve https traffic, but that will clearly take more work.
(For anyone wondering why the pthreads build has been up and broken, it's because I had failed to clue into this being the problem until now...and so my only way to investigate the issue at all was by having a broken build on the web. But this Firefox error message in the latest build gives a searchable point to find others with the problem--other people serving emscripten projects over http (or testing locally) who are also having problems...)
Right now is a good moment to reflect on how it was wise to not go completely all-in on pthreads, but keep things set up for a dual build. WebAssembly is still bleeding edge and I guess we don't really know quite when these things will pin down. I still think it's the best long bet to be making.
 
10:38 AM
@HostileFork and asincify ís working fine for you from rebol-server?
 
@giuliolunati I have not tested rebol-server yet; I couldn't even get it working with browsers in Linux VMs. And I only really use VM browsers when testing locally, so I'm thinking the odds are that it's the http://localhost:8000/... where the http is the problem. And yes, asyncify works. So I suspect that is the problem with rebol-server too... but if you don't see asyncify working either, then that's another problem that's Android-only somehow.
 
11:25 AM
@HostileFork Ok... (BTW note that rebol-server uses the port 8888)
 
@giuliolunati I'll keep looking into what's up, because either way the pthreads build isn't working even when it runs under the upstream emscripten... it just runs enough to error in a normal way vs. hanging-and-crashing-the-devtools, so that's more easily fixed.
But it sucks if you can't debug that locally, WASM binaries are hard enough to debug already in the first place (!)...this is why it helps to have a working desktop build of your app and hopefully most bugs can be fixed there.
 
 
1 hour later…
12:57 PM
@HostileFork 'Do not be swayed by mindless "experts" who tell you that it's the "standard of practice".' -- wise words, Carl, no matter how hard it may be to do in reality. There have been some attempts at forward compatatibility (or even, full compatibility, though those are even fewer), namely HTML itself. Sadly they have all either failed in the end (HTML/CSS) or just outright dead-ended themselves.
What really riles my oysters is the "exlicit" (sic, and pun definitely intended by me) non-goal that everyone seems to take as normal. That is to say, backwards (and forwards) incompatibility as a standard business practice. What gives? Planned obsolescence is evil, can't everyone see that?
 
@HostileFork Expecting to something built in a newer version of an OS, library, or even CPU version to run on something older is fundamentally flawed. Nothing can ever be guaranteed to be forward-compatible. "Nothing will ever emerge in the future that won't run against this library/on this OS"? No one can make that promise, and you can't rely on that. — Andrew Henle 2 hours ago
@AndrewHenle "Nothing will ever emerge in the future that won't run against this library/on this OS"? No one can make that promise, and you can't rely on that." => This is patently false--in the sense that if one can use an older version of the OS/toolchain for a result, new versions of the toolchain could have a switch to get that result as well. Not long ago it would have been considered unacceptable to have a release of a compiler that could not build binaries that would run on a system considered "the latest" just the day before. I see that ship seems to have sailed for many here. — HostileFork 34 mins ago
 
1:35 PM
@MarkI Time to look into "musl" instead of glibc, where they specifically are trying to make sure you can static link (while glibc is busy giving all the reasons why they don't want you to). Rust uses it for its static binaries. Musl seems better aligned with Rebol's goals.
 
1:54 PM
@MarkI (and others) please feel free to upvote my comments and such so that the alternative opinion is heard and not buried. (I intend to accept my own answer, as it answers the question I had vs. "don't ask that".)
 
2:36 PM
@MarkI Those type of developers do live in a world where they only look ahead/forward, owning the newest machines, dumping their old machines within the guaranty period, updating to all latest tech. Yes they cannot see people working on old versions of *untu on older machines, let alone ancient Linuxes on computers from the age of the dinosaurs, even if only used for fun.
2
 
3:08 PM
It truly is a war. As someone who once knew the layout of my hard drive directories...where the programs were, they were small enough to back up in case I needed an old copy, control is lost completely now.
I've made the analogy about when Richard Stallman talks about noticing in the old computer labs how the culture of sharing and experimenting was being replaced with closed source commercial software and barriers, he worried that the next generation wouldn't even have a concept of what it was like when you could share software and modify it.
The "Back to Personal Computing" seems similar to me; worrying that the trends would lead to a whole generation that has no basis to understand what it was like when a system was operating at the scale that a person might be able to manage themselves.
 
3:45 PM
@HostileFork First, your link is totally irrelevant. It's commenting on complexity. Your hack broke the fcntl() function - user code in the absence of your hack worked. When your hack is in place that code no longer functions as designed. And that's just one breakage that you didn't even know about before I pointed it out to you - what else is broken? My standards for the code I write are higher than yours. — Andrew Henle 1 hour ago
^-- "My standards for the code I write are higher than yours." ...oh no he did-unht...
@AndrewHenle As you won't join the chat: I will simply summarize by saying it took a bit of work to research how to do this. I saw other people were discussing it, but thought it would be better to have it on StackOverflow where it was searchable and feedback could improve it. I reacted to your feedback including reordering the points of the answer to put "if you want a generalized solution keep an old OS" first. I then did add some errors (to functions I was not using). Hence I find your inability to empathize + unwillingness to consider another point of view myopic and tedious. Done. — HostileFork 1 hour ago
That guy is a piece of work.
But it does underscore the level of entrenchment that certain people who are gatekeepers of tech (or imagine themselves as such) have in their extremely condescending and annoying worldview.
in Discussion between HostileFork and Andrew Henle, 1 hour ago, by HostileFork
@AndrewHenle "My standards for the code I write are higher than yours." => All right, let's see some of it.
^-- no response.
I do not disagree with his premise that the most foolproof way to build a compatibility executable is an older OS and toolchain--the oldest you want to target. I put that in my answer originally!...but it was after showing the method for doing a redirection. To appease him I moved it to be the first thing I said. But...
in Discussion between HostileFork and Andrew Henle, 2 hours ago, by HostileFork
@AndrewHenle The link is not irrelevant...as you are talking (somewhat gleefully it seems) about a level of dependency that isn't a package, it's a whole OS for one function for features of that function I am not using.
 
4:08 PM
posted on October 21, 2019 by @salotz Samuel Lotz

@salotz wrote: Here is an interesting Rebol inspired experimental language that combines ideas from Rebol and Smalltalk. Its Implemented in Nim. http://sprylang.se/index.html Posts: 1 Participants: 1 Read full topic

 
 
7 hours later…
10:49 PM
^-- Update: for what it's worth, the guy did delete a couple of his comments on the post (including the one about the "higher standards"). So I took a couple responses off too. The full log is archived as a chat for the moment...but I can delete the link to that if we are going to consider this settled.
 

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