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12:48 AM
@giuliolunati I had kind of a weird (and likely non-trivial idea, but)...what if the Rebol Android app itself (the skeletal Java portion that has the stop/start buttons) was a fork of the hacker's keyboard itself? So instead of having to worry about installing the hacker's keyboard separately or what would control the process, you'd just install one .APK that was the "Rebol Keyboard...plus server"?
If you enable the keyboard then you get access to some button on it to reset the server or update.
Difficulty of doing such a thing aside...I guess one concern would be if someone likes configuring a development keyboard they would have to duplicate their configurations. But it might be a plus, if you like your Rebol keyboard configured differently...to not need to have separate profiles or figure out how to do that.
It might be difficult, I don't know...depends on how hard it is to build one's own copy of the keyboard in the first place. But if that's easy, it might not be too difficult.
I'm just trying to think of this very turnkey process for getting people going faster, as with going straight to the console. And maybe even where you don't think about installing a terminal for bash...because you use the REPL in a shell dialect mode.
 
 
11 hours later…
12:02 PM
What is currently the best way to develop / deploy for the rebol wasm console?
 
12:33 PM
@ingo Until we can get more support, I'm kind of asking people to use the link on my site, then and DO a Github raw or Gitlab raw URL of their code (or something supporting CORS so fetch() can read it). We can make a shorthand so things like do <chess> are macros for your location, and we can launch that from the URL.
@ingo Though, this stuff with the Android is rather promising and interesting in its own right. I think especially if we can bring in something like the Ren Garden shell where it uses the Bionic Android server as a "backchannel" to do things the browser side can't... if there's one .APK that is basically Ren Garden on Android, where what you do can work in the browser... this is pretty substantial.
(Still funny watching that video that people will think I'm a terrible typist--not true, I can do 120wpm...but when you have a microphone on the desk, plus a cat who keeps walking on the desk between you and the screen, it makes it look like I can't type. :-P)
 
 
6 hours later…
7:06 PM
@Feeds Sigh. It looks like this no-/WAIT issue boils down to that it's spinning in a loop waiting to get a signal back to make sure the process has started successfully. It does this by opening a fourth pipe channel ("info", in addition to input/output/error) and waiting to see when that channel gets closed. Closing is how it tells the process opened successfully.
If there's an error it reads an error code. Maybe this can be simplified by signaling success not by closing, but by writing a 0 into the channel...that might be more cross-platform predictable than depending on reading pipe state flags.
Hm, no that can't work. It closes the read end of the pipe because it has to hold the write open indefinitely in case the exec fails. This is rather complex.
 
 
2 hours later…
9:05 PM
@rgchris Okay, I believe this is sort of resolved... and now Travis is testing the OS X version of httpd.reb too. What would be great would be if you could follow that pattern and put together some more %tests/ or add things to run in the .travis.yml that are git pull'd from elsewhere.
 
@HostileFork Hmm, I don't like this idea :-/ No-nerd people doesn't like hacker's keyboard
 
@giuliolunati Anyone programming in Rebol needs something like it I would think...it doesn't seem to make sense to use the regular keyboard. I guess the question is who would be using the .APK but a nerd?
 
@HostileFork well, I wish to deploy some no-console rebol apps to my friends... such as memo desk, ukulele chords or bible search
 
You wouldn't have to use the keyboard; the server could be put in there to run as some independent "activity". I'm just saying that the control app would be a fork of it, with some extra buttons to make it easier for people to drop right into development. It might be a distinguishing factor.
 
9:20 PM
@HostileFork I don't understand... so my users would not be forced to use HK outside of RebolServer? and they could write text in RebolServer apps (other than console) using their favorite keyboard?
 
@giuliolunati Yes. Really all I am suggesting is bundling the keyboard in the .APK so everyone who installs rebol-server gets the keyboard. And I feel like it would be best if the app experience on first load took you to an HTML page that was a Rebol app--not an android screen with android buttons.
So after you install, you are at most one button push away from getting into the web REPL with hacker keyboard...and you can run shell commands to look at your android files, maybe have a script to take a picture off the camera, etc.
If you are in the web console and it's not an "app" then I think defaulting to hacker keyboard makes sense.
If it is a ukulele app, or a chat app, sure then use whatever the default is.
My suggestion is that maybe the Rebol server can piggy back on the same Java process that the keyboard uses, but I don't know quite how keyboards work. Mechanically I just kind of guess that you can install one .APK that is a keyboard that also does something like have a background network process even when the keyboard isn't currently in use (but I don't know)
@giuliolunati You have seen @rgchris's webtop? Maybe when you do a first run you get something like that, and the console is the first choice.
 
@HostileFork I think a keyboard is very different from "normal" apps -- you must enable it, and then choose it, and then it become the default keyboard for all other apps....
@HostileFork Well, maybe... but it's vital to have a "maintenance access" independent from web interface, in case the rebol server needs to be restarted, updated or reset.
 
@giuliolunati This is why I was wondering if a keyboard that's part of the app itself, might be special in this regard. Obviously if you drew all the keys yourself and didn't consider it a "keyboard" then it could work. So my question is about how distant it would be for this. And then this same app could be the app that provides the maintenance.
It may be that hacker keyboard is not easy to unplug from the Android wiring that makes it a "keyboard". Or maybe it really is getting a rectangle and taking over, and hence you could do it.
 
9:36 PM
@HostileFork but then you can't use it to interact with browser
 
@giuliolunati Unless the browser is embedded in the app?
 
@HostileFork Electron-like :-( ??
 
Anyway, it was just an idea; I was trying to think how quickly one could get up and running in the console as a programmer...and removing steps...
@giuliolunati I don't mean a copy of the browser, I mean using some kind of browser widget API.
The thing about marketing stuff is trying to get that experience of up and running as easy as possible. I was just wondering if people getting the .APK could get into the console with the hacker keyboard without a separate step, and it could start tutorial'ing them on how to list files on the phone...how to take pictures in a script...etc.
 
@HostileFork do you mean: 1. don't need to install HK 2. jump immediately to the console ?
1.maybe we can simulate a keyboard in the console
2. yes we can
 
@giuliolunati Maybe that is interesting, I wonder if such a thing exists already?
 
9:47 PM
@HostileFork For Android, that's just another keyboard
@HostileFork I guess not impossible ... an html table plus the right wiring for events...
 
@giuliolunati Try clicking "Desktop Site" in settings.
 
@HostileFork Too wide... unusable on my phone :-/
 
@giuliolunati Well, it's just the first one I found in the HTML-based-keyboard genre within a few seconds of being mentioned! It indicates such a thing does exist and maybe people are thinking about it.
 
@HostileFork Yes, right...
 
Point being that if people install the .APK and if we can get it smooth quickly (no localhost:8000/...), and they don't see something odd like "start server", and if they have a keyboard that they can easily enter code with...
...and then that app can do various phone-control tasks by asking the Bionic rebol-server when it needs to...
This could kind of be a "killer app"
I'm trying to think through the one-step, one-.APK install.
 
9:54 PM
Wow!
Let us focuse on a first goal?
 
@giuliolunati Well one first goal that I am on is that if there is not a good constant testing this is not possible. I am wondering if the best way to get in tests of webserver.reb is to git clone it and add them to the .travis.yml for rebol-httpd? It's hard to say how far the scope of those tests should go.
Like how much redundant work do we want to do. When is it an "Android test" and when is it a web server test.
@giuliolunati this is the simple test but I would like much more if you and @rgchris can look into that! Maybe tests could also be done as a kind of documentation; so the tests are actually samples.
 
@HostileFork Or simply to embed webserver.reb in rebol-httpd repo?
 
@giuliolunati I think they are distinct. I guess the question is if someone else wants to use that particular webserver.reb. My thought is that webserver.reb there would be specialized to the android backchannel.
It is probably liberating to not have to worry about generic webserving for the android use case.
Maybe there are some features that are generic enough that should actually be moved out of webserver.reb and into httpd.reb if more than one app wants to use it
 
So we need at least 4 repos for httpd, webserver, apk, replpad
 
Could be, I guess I'd say hold off on the webserver being broken out until the day something besides the APK uses it.
 
10:03 PM
webserver could be used also without apk
 
I don't want to prematurely be creating generic products, for which not more than one user exists yet, it's too difficult and it adds imaginary constraints that can hinder progress on the use case at hand.
 
(well, at least I could use it outside apk or android :-)
 
Well, you count :-)
I guess the question is if and when you want to do that, and if you have time...
 
no problem, it's ready now
 
This is where I talk about the importance of focus in order to pick something that is made successful, to bring in more hands to help.
If it's a Ukulele app, it's a ukulele app--that is fine!
But there has to be a focus. Mine is code golf.
 
10:07 PM
so I should create a webserver repo with tests for it?
 
@giuliolunati If that's how you want to do it; I'm not being too prescriptive. You can copy the pattern of the .travis.yml in the rebol-httpd repo, or you can just git pull more sources during the rebol-httpd test process and add more steps there. I just hate to have a ton of nearly-identical .travis.yml files to maintain. So there's another question--how to reduce repeating ourselves on that (shared shell scripts/tools?)
 
10:23 PM
@giuliolunati I mention testing as a first goal because if there aren't tests and repositories for things where I can go fix stuff, then everything I do runs the risk of breaking something. That demoralizes people who feel they can't keep up with the changes, which leads to demoralizing me because no one is using things. So I really feel setting up these "institutional structures" of people committing to their projects and committing to their tests is more important than any new cool feature.
But important to keep in mind: there's a lot of really, really cool stuff going on here!
We just have to be selective; I'd like everyone to pick things they are pretty sure they think they will still care about at least until, say, the end of 2021...and if you don't think you will still care then, I don't want to spend too much time worrying about that project.
 
11:08 PM
posted on September 14, 2019 by @hostilefork Brian Dickens

@hostilefork wrote: I think it's good that VOID! is not conditionally true or false: >> if print "This error seems good" [<does it not?>] This error seems good ** Script Error: VOID! values are not conditionally true or false ** Where: if console ** Near: [... print "This error seems good" [<does it not?>] ~~] And I think it's good th

 

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