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6:31 AM
@giuliolunati One of the truly neat things about Ren-C is that when these odd ideas come up, they can be tried out...I started implementing the "word! and path! that look up to blank will create null" idea two and a half hours ago, and now have a booting interpreter to ponder the effects. Whether the idea has any merit or not, it's nice to be able to take a look at it in action.
>> data: [a b c]
== [a b c]

>> x: third ["Hello" "World"]
; null

>> append data x
** Script Error: x has no value
>> y: try third ["Hello" "World"]
== _

>> append data y
== [a b c]

>> append data try y
== [a b c _]

>> append data :y
== [a b c _ _]
 
 
2 hours later…
8:56 AM
posted on August 26, 2019 by @hostilefork Brian Dickens

@hostilefork wrote: When I first used Rebol, I thought it was great how clean a PRINT statement could look. Between the curly-brace delimited strings allowing for quotes and apostrophes (and nested braces), there was a pleasing and natural implicit spacing between the parts: >> score: 1020 >> print [{This "score" isn't real, player:} scor

 
 
2 hours later…
10:42 AM
@HostileFork Do you think I shall clone the rebol-server repo under Metaeducation?
 
 
4 hours later…
3:05 PM
@giuliolunati Github lets you move repos, and you're a member of metaeducation, so you shouldn't have to clone it. Though since you don't have any issues it doesn't make a lot of difference which way you do it. The main thing is just to get some more people able to edit it...
 
 
2 hours later…
4:59 PM
@HostileFork I tried to transfer the repo, but failed with: "You don’t have the permission to create repositories on metaeducation"
 
@giuliolunati Just looked at the settings, I turned on a switch, try again...
 
@HostileFork ok, done
 
@giuliolunati Great. Ok, I had an idea for getting the latest build of rebol from a URL...we could write a HTML redirect page when we do the travis upload, just like how we write the hash for the latest. So we'd make a boilerplate redirect page. Then you can just wget or curl to get that page (and anyone could, so it would be convenient).
So each OS version, underneath it, would have like http://.../0.4.40/latest
We'd set the content-type to HTML, and write a URL Redirect body of that "page"
So then, the .travis.yml for the rebol-server project would fetch from that when it builds.
(It could also do a multi-step process, where it fetches the hash we already make itself, and turns that into a URL to do another fetch...but it seems to me that if we can make this convenient with a redirect like this, it will pay off over the long term.)
 
 
2 hours later…
6:44 PM
@Edoc The best just got better, I think...this null decay for blank through WORD! and PATH! is looking like a winner.
A lot of places that used to say blank? var could probably be clearer as not var instead of the maybe "misleading-seeming" null? var. But of course if var isn't unset (hence the var fetch didn't error) you know that means it must have been blank. But this is not so far a stretch for Rebol, where if var [...] always conflated false and blank (none) anyway. You distinguish when you care.
 
7:22 PM
326
A: All falsey values in JavaScript

user568458Falsey values in JavaScript false 0 and other forms of numeric zero like -0, 0.0 and 0x0 (credit to RBT for hex form) "", '' and `` - strings of length 0 null undefined NaN document.all (in HTML browsers only) This is a weird one. document.all is a falsey object, with typeof as undefined. It...

 
@HostileFork I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. not var is much preferred to blank? var.
 
@Edoc Ask any questions if you have them; but where it comes from is the duality of what it means when you have variables that are "set, but not set", in regards to whether they vaporize in things like COMPOSE or APPEND, and how much operations like COMPOSE or APPEND are responsible for having switches or making decisions on whether to interpret blanks ("nones") as vaporizing vs. a literal value to go in a block.
My proposal is geared around moving that responsibility to callers. That a blank variable acts as a null when fetched normally via WORD! or PATH!, and it's the caller who decides whether to subvert that with a "no, I really want a literal BLANK! value cell". This means COMPOSE and APPEND can be more mechanical and go "whatever you say..."
 
@HostileFork Yes, your forum docs are very good on this. I just need to figure out what that means in practice for the kind of code I write.
 
Primary impact seems to be transfer of one potentially-blank variable to another. e.g. foo: func [thing /refine] [proxy: refine | blah blah proxy] no longer works.
That has to become proxy: try refine or proxy: :refine. The former won't transfer an unset state, but error. The latter will transfer any state, including unset.
Transfer of potentially-BLANK! variables thus starts to have some of the concern of potentially-ACTION! variables, where you have to say what you mean.
And then, the need for more TRY when attempting to leverage the blank-in-null-out convention via a variable reference...which I don't see as a bad thing, but rather documenting what you are doing at the callsite.
 
@HostileFork Yes, I saw the try bit. I agree that this makes it more clear/intentional.
 
7:36 PM
It has seemed a win so far, I'm going through the tests now, and I'm surprised that more isn't breaking. Most all of it looks good.
Liking the revival of BLANK! translating to spaces when blocks turn into text. Spaces are the blanks of strings.
Annoying OPTs going away. I like TRY more than I like OPT.
 
7:54 PM
@HostileFork This threw me a little, because it's not literal/intuitive. It's definitely cleaner and provides flexibility, so I like that part. Just seemed like a new twist on top of the other duties of blank!. Looking forward to using it.
 
@Edoc Blank's duties are much more limited now; while it's common for functions to accept blanks (and usually return null), it's rather rare for functions to return it as any kind of signal.
So where you wind up with it is placeholder slots in blocks bearing data. But if a block bears some kind of tuple-of-data, you're likely not going to stringify that tuple for no particular reason through direct string conversion.
 
@HostileFork Got it. Cool to see longstanding semantic/architectural issues continue to be squeezed out of the language design.
 
@Edoc Yup, well these longstanding to-do items hang around, I used to gripe that I felt things like compose [a (if 1 > 2 ['b]) c] should vaporize the NONE! and give you [a c]. BrianH would counter that there were lots of cases that placeholder slots in blocks were necessary. The existence of the null state (and having it be a failed conditional distinct from blank) resolved this, however...
...there was still this nagging situation of people wanting to use variables for the same intent. My so called foo: try third ["Hello" "World"] situation, where you then write compose [a (foo) c]. And you run up against the ugliness of compose [a (opt foo) c] when you might sort of feel you'd already said it's nothing, vs when you care.
For things I write, I would say I lean on the side of preferring such intents to vaporize...but if you always vaporize BLANK! you get to a mechanical question of how you'd accomplish putting a blank in there if you wanted one. It's cleaner I think to have the control come from saying compose [a (:foo) c] if that's what you want, and let plain foo referring to a blank value become null.
Then the pressure is off of COMPOSE and APPEND to have some story regarding the conditional handling of BLANK!
 
8:17 PM
If you look at the forum post title I'd suggested /ONLY might control this...that if you really wanted a blank to append it would be a bit like appending a block as-is literally. Compare with append [a b c] [] => [a b c] and append/only [a b c] [] => [a b c []]. So by analogy, append [a b c] _ => [a b c] and append/only [a b c] _ => [a b c _]. But requiring /only on all non-block appends (to any-array!) killed that possibility.
Seen in that light, this idea seems far cleaner. It requires seeing plain WORD! and PATH! evaluation as it is already known to be: not a pure fetch of a variable (due to function invocation, lack of tolerance of nulls and voids). So adding this twist of making it follow blank-in-null-out protocol for variable fetch doesn't seem too out of line, considering the benefit.
Such a "blank-to-null decay" seems far less random than Rebol2's "lit-word-to-word decay" through plain WORD! access. I never grasped what that was supposed to be for.
 

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