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12:32 AM
@HostileFork I don't see the need to support "iss/ue" if you'd prefer issue paths.
 
1:17 AM
@rgchris I kind of want all the ANY-STRING! classes to have space-supported notations. e.g. #{iss ue} ... and I'd not think it that bad to switch BINARY! to %{DECAFBAD} to get there.
The thing about issue paths is that I'm now moving away from the "if the head of the path is inert, the path is inert" idea. So <foo>/2 would be #"o" if (<foo>)/2 is #"o".
Anyway, I'm pretty serious now about the /foo being the way to say that foo may be null but you're okay with that...and it dovetails nicely with the idea that refinements are thus in specs. some additional thoughts from practical testing of that. And I think that REFINEMENT! was a lame data type and that the new paths that just don't render BLANK! are good dialecting parts.
 
1:44 AM
@rgchris In other news, your opinion is sought on conversion to "Topaz-style" parse rules, where instead of copy x some integer! you'd write x: copy some integer!; this would be coupled with let x: copy some integer! to collect as a local (with the idea of not auto collecting set-word)
Because Redbol support is important, a goal is to make PARSE flex to support either notation via some kind of hook.
 
 
10 hours later…
11:32 AM
Hmm... I never have really understood why issue type does exist at all...
 
@giuliolunati It doesn't have any specific inherent purpose, which makes it good for dialecting when you need another value type.
 
@HostileFork but at the cost of a dedicated char for them
 
Speaking of which, I meant &{DECAFBAD} above for BINARY! (%{DECAFBAD} would be a FILE!).
 
@HostileFork Btw, I wonder if we should require as mandatory a space/newline before and after strings and blocks.
 
11:47 AM
@giuliolunati We're planning on requiring it with the exceptions of ]( ... )[ ... ][ and )(.
So {a}[b] would not be legal, nor a[b]. This makes room for more syntax extensions in the future.
 
And then we could write "raw" strings as r"not ^escaped" = "not ^^escaped"
 
Things like that, yes.
 
Or else \"\-" = "^-"
 
12:29 PM
So I think compose 'a should probably be a, and not an error. This is so that you can compose paths for setting more easily, e.g. set/hard compose target where target could be an ANY-PATH! with groups in it or an ANY-WORD! Then we keep the rule that SET and GET refuse to evaluate GROUP!s in PATH!s.
The /HARD means interpret GROUP!s hard-quotedly in the path, e.g. there's already been an evaluation step so if a GROUP! is seen, it would have been the looked-up value.
As I've pointed out in the past, these are hard tradeoffs to make. But they arise from noticing various patterns that are extremely difficult to get right in making new language constructs.
I think pushing the responsibility to the user to do a COMPOSE, and having /HARD is better than having a SET/EVAL...or making SET tolerate side-effects in evaluation of path arguments by default. But still, it's hard to say. If you can say (first [x]): 10 should you be able to say set '(first [x]) 10 ?
 
1:34 PM
Just finished getting a new desktop prepped. Where can I download a win executable of ren-c? The metaeducation.s3.amazonaws.com/index.html redirects to replpad.
 
 
3 hours later…
4:10 PM
http:\/\/metaeducation.s3.amazonaws.com/<OS_ID>/last-deploy.short-hash contains the 7-hash of last successful deploy, then http:\/\/metaeducation.s3.amazonaws.com/<OS_ID>/r3-<7-hash>[-debug][.exe]
 
@giuliolunati Thank you
 
@Edoc please substitute the <...> and [...] with what do you need!
OS_ID for windows are 0.3.1 / 0.3.40, see .travis.yml
 
4:29 PM
@giuliolunati I'm getting an error when attempting to hit metaeducation.s3.amazonaws.com/0.3.40/last-deploy.short-hash for the hash.
 
@Edoc It's broken but you can run do <downloads> from the http://hostilefork.com/media/shared/replpad-js/
 
Bueno, I'll give that a shot
 
(It's supposed to be doing that)
@Edoc Hm, that seems broken too, let me look at it
 
yup... i was scratching my chin
 
Oh. Refresh, type rebol: system, and then do <downloads>. The rebol => system equivalence is no longer legal.
 
4:38 PM
It's not a rush, btw so don't stop if you're in the middle of sthing
And do <downloads> (almost) works on your site @HostileFork but not the aws site
 
@Edoc Yes, I would prefer the aws site to be a redirect to my deployment... I think that people should not be keeping their own replpad deployments just yet if they aren't going to sync them...
 
@HostileFork gotcha
@HostileFork This works now, thanks
 
Because we're doing a bunch of s3 manual stuff, we now could pretty easily make a step in the Travis that built a static site to do the Travis downloads if we wished, but I kind of prefer the do <downloads> to exercise the web console... making static html sites is kind of busywork webmastering time we don't have hands for
@Edoc PR and explanation of the change. Deceptive to have already-LOAD-ed code with a pattern that looks like a header execute it as a no-op.
 
 
2 hours later…
6:55 PM
I'm surveying the effects in practice of /foo (unsets and voids allowed, don't run functions) distinguished from :foo (error if foo is unset, voids allowed, don't run functions). And from those practical cases, I think this is a winner. Having tolerance of unset variables folded in with "I just don't want to run functions" always bothered me--it's just asking for mystery bugs--and the code really does get clearer to call out which you mean.
And I like how it folds in with the "semiotics" of refinements "looking optional" in function specs. It may sound like famous last words, but... it really feels like we are reaching the endgame of how refinement arguments work. The solution ticks all the boxes of what was sought after on the usage side, while being solid on the implementation side.
I'm a bit surprised at how little impact the change has (before the step of changing refinements to null when unused, which will clearly mean changing a lot of things...albeit an easy change). There just weren't that many :foo out there that were used with the meaning of null tolerance. Most callsites were filtering for unset? 'foo, for instance.
One issue that I hadn't thought about...which is kind of a grand Rebol design question, is how bindings work when you're not using a module. e.g. /somemispelledword for unset variables will still be bound, because it will create a binding in the user context. :-( That was previously a liability for any GET-WORD! usage, and now it's going to be a liability for any refinement you spell wrong.
So all misspelled refinements will appear to be unused, vs. generating errors when you /reference them. Again--this is not a new problem--and it needed some answer anyway.
Probably makes more sense for the user context expansion that's spamming these non-values everywhere to make them VOID!s instead of nulls, to get the "ornery-ness".
But if modules were being used and designed right, they wouldn't go around creating bindings for every misspelled WORD! you type...that's just asking for trouble. But this is kind of like the CONST question, about what sort of balance you want in terms of being able to create references first and declarations later, casually in the console.
>> f: does [print x]
>> x: "how important is it that this work?"
>> f
how important is it that this work?
When you allow that kind of thing (most languages don't), something has to give. In this case, it's crappy properties w.r.t. misspellings. But the best move is probably what I said...don't make these preloaded word-based variables start at null, because null is used too often for meaningfulness (and will be so especially with unused refinement-as-args as null). Use VOID!
 
8:08 PM
I'm wondering if this points to saying that VOID! handling is so rarely a good idea as to be done with a special form of GET and SET...that neither :foo nor /foo tolerates them. That would muck with any Redbol code that was using :foo and expecting it to "get an unset variable", but I think that code is uncommon and could always be rewritten to use GET/ANY.
 
 
1 hour later…
9:25 PM
@Edoc Sorry, my fault! The right links are last-deploy.short-hash and r3-debug.exe
 
 
2 hours later…
11:05 PM
posted on May 22, 2019 by @hostilefork Brian Dickens

@hostilefork wrote: I'm moving along with the unused-refinements-are-null concept, and absorbing the consequences. One thing that it breaks was a way we'd been testing for a refinement being used or not in a JavaScript native. Previously one could write: reb.Did(reb.ArgR('refine-no-args')) That used "normal reb.Did" which did not quote its splices, a

 

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