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12:59 AM
Maybe I’m not recalling the history of Ruby accurately, but I feel like that language broke out of semi-obscurity when Ruby On Rails took off. (And converseley, since owning and managing servers and LAMP stacks has become less attractive, Ruby ferver has slacked noticeably.)
 
 
1 hour later…
2:20 AM
posted on January 21, 2019 by @hostilefork Brian Dickens

@hostilefork wrote: – GOOD NEWS – – ENFIX HAS BEEN SOLVED – I know it’s been a long road, but it has reached a point where the design is final for Beta/One. I don’t say that lightly! Some aspects people will be very happy about: It involves embracing Rebol’s historical “one unit of evaluation” on the left hand side as the default for enfixed opera

4
 
@Marki ^-- There.
 
2:48 AM
Jaw meets floor.
 
@Edoc :-) Well, as I say, I think there are some people who see all this happen and think "oh, it's back to R3-Alpha..." without noticing that R3-Alpha's policy was one flag on a recursion. I invite Oldes to try adding this design, or Red. That's part of the point, let's see 'em try. :-P
Though it's much easier to copy a working design than to design it, even still...
 
(Recently boasted about Nancy Pelosi) You’re cutting off heads and the victims don’t even know they’re bleeding.
 
In the end, if Red is sincere about seeing this style of programming work, this is all good news.
They just have to change what they're doing to match it. Oh well. :-) But at least since it passes through that old OP! rule, there's much more compatibility.
 
Don’t focus on Red, bro. Looking back creates drag.
 
Anyhoo, things definitely clicked into place there. A wave of GitHub issues are about to get closed.
2
Hm. I wrote log: adapt 'keep [value: reduce value] but I could have said log: chain [:reduce :keep]. Chains are fast, they have been tweaked to be particularly fast actually.
The reason you wouldn't want to do that is then the public face of LOG (e.g. what shows up in help) is that of REDUCE, so it doesn't have all of keep's switches, like /ONLY or /LINE or whatever. But I wasn't using those.
 
3:14 AM
(Silence is a byproduct of awe.)
 
 >> match parse "aaa" [some "b"] else [print "ambiguous!"]
 ** Script Error: Ambiguous infix expression--use GROUP! to clarify
 ** Near: [... parse "aaa" [some "b"] ~~ else [print "ambiguous!"]]
^-- This is tricky, because this alien wacky match is the one building the frame and making the parse call, even though it looks like MATCH is taking the result of parse as a parameter.
As a sidenote, you can now implement this match in userspace (!)
userspace-match: function [
        {Check value using tests (match types, TRUE or FALSE, or filter)}

        return: "Input if it matched, otherwise null (void if falsey match)"
            [<opt> any-value!]
        :args [<opt> any-value! <...>]
        :args-normal [<opt> any-value! <...>]
        <local> first-key first-val
    ][
        test: first args
        switch type of :test [
            word! path! [
                if action? get test [
                    f: make frame! args
                    for-each ['first-key 'first-val] f [break]
>> userspace-match parse "aaa" [some "a"]
== "aaa"

>> userspace-match parse "aaa" [some "b"]
-- null
It's a bit clunky, but you can see the pieces coming together...making a FRAME! from a VARARGS!, an impromptu specialization based on seeing an example of how the function is being called.
 
3:42 AM
@HostileFork Very nice to eliminate the need for GROUP
 
An area that is a bit of a puzzle is when a variadic function doesn't want you to think of itself as a function, but rather it is "taking over the evaluator"...shifting into a mode where it remains on the stack even when you would think it would not be there any longer. This category of things is kind of snakey, and that's what match becomes when it pulls this stunt
 
3:54 AM
; Meet.... Mister frame!
mr-frame: func [varargs [<opt> any-value! <...>]] [
    f: make frame! varargs
    for-each p (parameters of action of f) [
        print [p "->" any [mold try :f/(p) ";-- null"]]
    ]
    do f
]
>> mr-frame add (4 * 5) (10 / 2)
value1 -> 20
value2 -> 5
== 25
But these kinds of meta-things always come with a cost if you use them too much. e.g. mr-frame mr-frame add (4 * 5) (10 / 2) isn't going to be very interesting for the outer frame, it will say "I take one variadic arg, and it's sitting at this position"
 
4:14 AM
Pleased to meet you Mr. Frame! Do you know Mr. Beat?
 
 
3 hours later…
7:13 AM
@iArnold Ok, so what is this designed strategy for failure?
 
Only so few designs and of those few implementations survive. I have many second thoughts about the chosen path. Esp. with all free industry accepted solutions already available.
 
I don't understand it.
 
7:40 AM
@rebolek See enfix covenant. Should make you happy, intersects historical Rebol behavior. If all you use are OP!-like things, with only 2 arguments, that evaluate both left and right, it acts exactly the same.
In other news, I think all the pieces are now in place that BAR! is not needed. It is possible to have a fully userspace expression barrier function, as a deferred enfix invisible. Meaning | can just be a WORD! again. Of course, experience with BAR! and making it work informed/motivated the design of invisibles.
 
:)
 
8:43 AM
@rebolek So do I. So hope for the best. After all you really do not need world domination with your product to survive.
 
8:56 AM
@iArnold you don't understand what you wrote?
 
No that part I do understand. I just think this is working against the current design paulgraham.com/icad.html
@GrahamChiu Is there a topic on the forum for suggestions of cool names for Ren-C?
 
Well I meant that I don't understand what you wrote :)
 
Glad I do not write down all my thoughts, that would give a real mess ;-)
 
@iArnold I was hoping you could explain it to me :)
 
9:20 AM
I have been wondering about a completely invisible PROBE that does not influence surrounding evaluation (well, assuming the word PROBE doesn't get quoted, obviously...I mean assuming it's evaluated), but still sees what the right hand side evaluates to. I think it would be cool...if I could figure out how it made semantic sense.
 
9:31 AM
Given the definition of shove (->), it seems like if the right hand side is evaluative and the left hand side is a SET-WORD! or SET-PATH!, it would be quite fitting for it to act as "me" and "my" do. some-var: 10, some-var: -> + 20 giving some-var of 30. It's exactly what the operator is for.
Just how you can say 10 -> lib/+ 20 and get 30, it's about injecting a value from the left as the first argument to something on the right. It avoids the weird linguistic distinction of ME and MY needed for me + 10 and my append.
It might seem a bit backwards, if you think of it as the "flow of information into the set-word". But the flow of information is always into the set-word, it's on the left. The unusual aspect is that information from it previously is going into the +.
 
9:54 AM
@rebolek OKay one try, then we are back discussing Ren-C here again. Well I do not see me buying the pro version, I see not many enthousiast programmers going to do so either because of free alternatives to create phone apps and programs (VS). I do not see many businesses going to buy licences because the alternatives already in use. And they need programmers to make stuff too and most like to get their programmers already skilled from the leading market standards.
Managers do tend to choose industry standard tools, for if things go wrong in their project they cannot be blamed for choosing the wrong tool.
All in all I think it is a hard path, chances are it will not become a huge success overnight. It will be a hard battle.
Unfortunate, for now you and I still have no broad choice in jobs that require Red/Rebol skills. So we stick to a second choice job.
<ready>
 
10:14 AM
I find it hard to understand why a pro version is being released when the non pro is unfinished
 
@GrahamChiu Maybe that's what differentiates the professional from the unprofessional. Finishedness.
 
Maybe the pro version comes with a Rebol/SDK license?
 
There was a grid widget which a guy had started making I looked at which appeared pretty slick (but was a monster in size, when I looked at it). And he had switched into where if you didn't pay for support you didn't get the latest version, you were stuck on a some back version...and they moved all their support into paid forums. So the out of date unpaid version was "community supported"...and out of date.
 
10:55 AM
*I do not see me buying the pro version*

That's finE. You've discussed Red/Pro under false assumption that it is a tool, something like Rebol/Command in the past. However, if you read the [blog article](https://www.red-lang.org/2019/01/full-steam-ahead.html), you will find out that Red/Pro is "... set of online services ...".

While I understand the sentiment that it makes no sense to sell a (programming) tool these days (and mostly agree with it), selling online services OTOH is something lot of companies are doing as a profitable business.
 
11:42 AM
Becoming dependent on such a service from a startup.. Big risk. Perhaps the plan involves getting acquired by big G. (Only speculating here about possibilities)
 
Reading the article before commenting on it really helps, trust me. For example you can read there that you don't have to be dependent on the /Pro service and can use the OSS compiler, that 's not going to be abandoned "and continue being the main development branch."
 
0
Q: rebol / red parse with [to end] rule

user310291I'm trying to understand parse from the ground up so don't tell me to use split in this case. sentence: "This is a sentence" parse sentence [any [[any space] copy text [to space | to end ] skip (print text)]] Why I don't get the last word sentence and only: This is a the [to end] didn't wo...

 
12:16 PM
1
A: rebol / red parse with [to end] rule

rebolekto end did work, but then you have skip there and you're already at the end, so skip fails. See this: >> parse sentence [any [[any space] copy text [to space | to end ] (print text) skip]] This is a sentence

 
 
2 hours later…
2:13 PM
@rebolek I just read the article. I don’t think the article provides enough details to be helpful. It states that Red Foundation will begin marketing and selling a “professional” version of the Red programming language toolset. If that is the proposition I disagree with that being an effective strategy but I wish them the best of luck and success.
2
 
@Edoc You're right that it does not provide enough details, but it clearly states that Red/pro is "... set of online services targetting both individual developers and enterprises."
 
2:39 PM
@rebolek Which can mean anything. :) In any event I’m sure there will be some useful/interesting developer goodies in there. I hope it jumpstarts a market for the entire Rebol ecosystem.
 
@Edoc Yup, let's hope something good will come out of it.
 
It does not provide enough details to speculate either, though ....
 
@rebolek I was hoping they would introduce a revolutionary dev feature for building dialects and mini-languages. Those guys could totally do that and it would probably blow a lot of minds.
If you’re going to try to sell a language (ahem, bad idea), it would at least be cool/noteworthy to build a language that lets a developer create (or mimic) his/her own semantic layer or syntax. Like XML does for data, Red could do for semantics.
I don’t think it would be a big seller :), but it would put them in an interesting niche which could be a stepping stone to further opportunities.
You just don’t want to be in a business of selling fancy new keys, but where you must convince customers that they need to build matching locks.
 
 
3 hours later…
5:47 PM
There's still one annoying hole to plug in the evaluator... what to do when an operator that quotes its left finds a PATH! there. That path could have side effects when being fetched, e.g. obj/(print "surprise!" 'forward-quoting-method) left-quoting-operator, yet want to overrule the quoting from the left. Or it may not. The evaluator is not psychic.
The mechanically sound way of dealing with it is just to say that left quoting beats right quoting. This has a problem, in that if you say something like help/doc left-quoting-operator or similar, you won't get help on the operator...it will quote the item in question. If a right quoting WORD! didn't win out over a left quoting one, things like help default wouldn't work.
So mechanical soundness would appear to have to take a back-seat to "doing something actually useful". That always bugs me. :-)
Probably we should say "you can't left quote a plain path". If you try to do so, and the path on the left doesn't wind up evaluating to an action that quotes right, you get an error. Saying you can quote paths, but only some of them, would be possible but then you are exploratorily doing path evaluation work that you might throw away even then...you're wasting the evaluator's time invisibly to the user. Better to guide them away from an inefficient thing that only sometimes works.
But... SHOVE can be blessed as special here. You could say some/(tricky)/path -> left-quoting-operator and that could count as "hey, I really mean it, pass this path to that argument". I suppose rather than blessing it as special it could be another one of those tricky argument conventions like <skip> or <defer>...<superquote-but-only-if-enfixed>.
Though then you're just out of luck if you say help/doc ->. But at this point, I think we can say "okay, this is an immovable object and unstoppable force thing, and at that point you have to use Google and ask 'why can't I say help/doc on ->' and it's one of those things you have to know"
 
6:19 PM
I guess the parameter convention could be called <shove>. But as with <defer> it's not a generic parameter convention, per se. It applies to the whole function. I think I'll just make some kind of tweak :then #defer on kind of operator to set this for the rare cases it applies, as opposed to polluting parameter annotations.
@DaviddenHaring Good news for the compatibility of infix, a subject you once expressed an opinion on :-) ... 1 + 2 * 3 => (1 + 2) * 3, even though x: default 2 * 3 => x: default (2 * 3), and there's a generalized solution for arities greater than 2, and which only uses existing normal/quoted parameter conventions... summary here
 
6:50 PM
@rebolek thanks for pointing that out. Read it just another time and this only worries me more. Call me paranoid if you want, but I am even beginning to suspect that my limited time is eaten up with conversating this issue on purpose.
 
7:16 PM
With machine learning and translation all getting pretty good, one must wonder what it would do if you just ripped out all the code and layers and efforts for internationalization from software, and just wrote it all in one language.
If anyone found messages that were confusing, they could just train the machines to improve the understanding of that particular codebase's messages.
 
 
2 hours later…
9:40 PM
@Feeds well done @HostileFork !
 
 
1 hour later…
10:46 PM
posted on January 21, 2019 by metaperl

[Reddit] Code review request - Rock, scissors, paper #rosettacode submission

 
10:57 PM
@iArnold I can't believe Paul Graham mentions Rebol! (in paulgraham.com/accgen.html -- it stands out favourably too!)
 
11:25 PM
@HostileFork Awesome. I'm trying not to feel too vindicated :). I am extremely glad we can have else and friends without sacrificing this unified position.
@HostileFork Curious, what's the problem with right-quoting beats left-quoting?
I kind of want help default (and help ->) to work. What would I be sacrificing?
 
@MarkI Well, feeling vindicated is fine, but what we were looking for is getting the new spectrum of behaviors with no new parameter class. Having exemptions for THEN/ELSE/ALSO that are function-level tweaks (not settings that apply at parameter level) and making it a narrow hack is something I might have been fine with, if not for not wanting to give up on (+ 2 * 3 4 * 5) and x: default 2 * 3.
@MarkI Those can work as fetching the words to get their values is done all along, and cached as it goes so the work isn't wasted, the problem is paths help/doc default and lib/help -> and some/(print "side effect" 'path) default etc.
The resolution I have seems like a good one. If you see a path and the next item backwards quotes but doesn't explicitly have the "shove" priority tweak (similar to the "defer" priority tweak), then go ahead and let the path win. If it turns out the path fetches into something that doesn't right quote to win, give an error.
Then, require people who want to left quote plain paths to use ->, and accept the casualty that lib/help -> is going to be the loser in this. But lib/help default will be fine, since it won't have the shove priority exemption. And help -> will be fine because that's a word and not a path.
left-lit: enfix :lit
obj: make object! [not-a-left-quoting-action: 10]
obj/not-a-left-quoting-action left-lit  ;-- this will error
obj/not-a-left-quoting-action -> left-lit  ;-- error will tell you to do this
The other casualty of this is you can't left-quote words that look up to actions with the shove priority exemption. You'll just have to get over it. :-)
There will be strong guidance to not make any more words with the shove priority exemption than ->, but I can't offhand say no one would ever want another thing like it.
I don't know if there's an interesting behavior for (10 ->). If there's not one, then the error message you see in help/doc -> could notice when you used a path, and include some warning that shove is weird, and that you might try e.g. help/doc (lit ->)
So repeat the path back to you with that suggestion. your/path/here (lit ->)
Need to stop calling them "quoting operators" or "quoted parameters" and call them "literal operators" and "literal parameters". x: 10 | x left-quote => '10 ... that would be a "quoting operator"
 
11:59 PM
@MarkI I think there may be a place for "procrastinating enfix", which doesn't take the left hand side until it absolutely has to, but doesn't alter the order of evaluation to do it. That is the realization that was needed for deferred infix. The thing to avoid is having more than two influences of ordering: infix and normal. Your operator's influence on the left must look like one of those two. e.g. THEN and ELSE are forced to seem normal.
 

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