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1:20 AM
posted on January 07, 2019 by gregg-irwin

[Reddit] Blog post about what happened in 2018, and what Red has planned for 2019. ​ https://www.red-lang.org/2019/01/full-steam-ahead.html

 
1:38 AM
@MarkI The path cogitation suggests some other aspects of having a monopoly on the points of immutable path creation, which includes that if you try to put a FILE! into them, it gets broken up across its slashes into string/word components. Defiling. :-)
So no worries about what 'foo/%bar/baz means. Put it under the list of disallowed stuff. No FILE!s directly under paths...now possible to enforce. But allow things like foo/(%bar)/baz or foo/(%bar/baz).
 
 
1 hour later…
2:57 AM
@MarkI Further, if rules are going to be placed on FILE!, I guess it doesn't really matter if lone / is decided to be a WORD!, and gets vetted as well. It can just be another rule ("Two path elements minimum, and both can't be blank"). It's messy to have all these exceptions, but < is a word at one point and a delimiter at another.
 
3:15 AM
Wacky idea of the moment: with quoted ACTION!s, it's possible to "disarm" an ACTION!. What if typeclasses could be specified as the quoted forms of type-checkers? even!: lit :even?
 
3:29 AM
^-- (should have said even: quote :even?, as lit :even? is a GET-WORD!)
 
 
5 hours later…
8:07 AM
Happy New year!
3
 
@rebolek Hopefully it will be... happy new year to you as well.
@rebolek Generic escaping solving MAKE OBJECT! ambiguities, which may be of some interest.
 
Thanks, I'll take a look at it.
 
Interesting. I'm not sure what is '''''''''''''''''<whoa!> good for, but it's interesting anyway.
 
8:22 AM
@rebolek If you look at the MAKE OBJECT! example, it explains at least one way to look at why. If you can reason that there is a reason for 'foo to exist, then there is a reason for ''foo to exist. So that means somewhere out there is a ''foo which might wind up in an object, so....
You wouldn't want to use it at source level, but the thing is that sometimes when you're making things that make things, it comes up. To have a complete system you need it to be generalized.
 
I get the need for ''foo, I'm not sure about '"foo".
 
@rebolek The problem is when you have automated code that doesn't know if what's in its hand needs escaping or not. It's also very cheap. So let's imagine that I have a routine that says it will return either a null, a string message, or an escaped return value. Today you might imagine doing that with a block, as a container to indicate the special result. But this is much cheaper.
You could, arguably, say that quoting a type that is evaluator inactive will always be a no-op, but it might make writing code that tries to check its invariants complicated, and you then could also not use it as a lightweight "anything container"...with the interesting property that one evaluation step would always remove a level.
There could be a QUOTE/IF-NEEDED or something like that, refinement. QUOTE/LAZY
Anyway, it can be a generic bit on a value if you want... use it to mark or tag things in some kind of process you are doing, and have nothing to do with the evaluator.
 
 
5 hours later…
1:46 PM
@Satoshi55469160 We have nothing to do with the "redcoin" project.
 
 
6 hours later…
7:56 PM
@giuliolunati do you have any idea yet of what sort of dialect you'd want for a GUI in the browser? @rgchris et tu?
 
@giuliolunati Thought I had, looking at a function which could maybe not answer a question about a number but could give you a minimum. If it knew your answer it could give a number, like 3. If it didn't know exactly but knew it was at least something, it could give '3 ... wondering what the quoting could be used for in math-like dialects, and if there might be some standard for it more interesting than '3 + 1 => '4. Kind of like how I suggested BLANK! for NaN...
 
8:24 PM
For anyone interested in the state of the webcommentverse for Red on Hackernews circa 2019, comment thread here.
9214 is certainly a fanatical fellow...interesting to see how he reacts to finding out that he's in a cult with a bunch of crazy Czechs. :-P
With esoteric languages that "aren't really ready", I don't think people on hackernews really know enough to have anything too much to say... other than "I'm skeptical of how much you talk it up when it doesn't do or consider (a), (b), (c)". So I'm unsure exactly what the hoped-for reaction is. This raises the important point that any web PR effort done for Beta/One needs to consider exactly what the intended reactions should be, and make sure there's no need to be on the defense.
 
 
1 hour later…
9:38 PM
posted on January 07, 2019 by @hostilefork Brian Dickens

@hostilefork wrote: I’m going to have to start getting kind of brutal cutting dicey things out of the system for Beta/One. So when I ran across the ARITY-OF routine and all its disclaimers and concerns, I thought “oh no, well this simple-seeming thing is more trouble than it’s worth, to explain and document…” Classical Rebol doesn’t have it. People wh

 
@JacobGood1 ^-- FYI. I think you were looking at how to answer such a question with some of your early investigations.
 
 
1 hour later…
10:48 PM
@GrahamChiu in my experiments I'm using my own Rem dialect, Lest like, that output HTML
@HostileFork rather arbitrary ... why minimum vs. maximum?
 
@giuliolunati In that particular case I was thinking about an arity answer for variadics. It only knew a minimum. So the question was, might it have a way of returning an answer that you couldn't do integer operations on directly, but still see was an integer.
 
@giuliolunati So, @HostileFork has a console in the browser which is able to respond synchronously to events. So, I presume we need to enable other widgets to be as capable.
 
@GrahamChiu Please read "On Giving libRebol More Powers Than JavaScript" start to finish. No cheating. Read the whole thing. :-P You might post a response calling out any sentences that are not 100% understandable to you.
 
11:12 PM
@GrahamChiu I don't know—I'm still thinking how I'd like a native GUI to work too :)
Events, dear boy, events.
 
@rgchris Things continue to speed closer to "if you can dream it, you can do it". So people should be writing forum posts and mapping things out. If they can do so, they might see what they want quite quickly.
 
If paths are replacing refinements—does a path with a leading blank evaluate to itself? And can it thus be used within PARSE? parse [/foo][/foo end]
 
@rgchris Questions that are up in the air. Generally speaking, I believe that it is likely that paths with inert heads offer more value where #foo/2 is just itself, instead of #"o". I imagine as an ISSUE!-ist, you would agree with either that or that issues should be allowed to have embedded slashes.
<tag>/2 should pretty clearly be a PATH!, and again I think it should likely not be #"a"
But not all evaluator inert types are as-is in PARSE, e.g. INTEGER! and BLOCK!, so there's nothing intrinsic about evaluator-inertness that means you don't have to use an apostrophe on things.
We can now say parse [1 1 1] [1 3 '1] (I'm making [1 3 1] illegal as a parse rule, things that do not behave literally cannot suddenly become literal because PARSE is in a spot that is semantically invalid as an instruction otherwise)
If we have /a, :/a, and /a:... all costing the same as a, :a, and a:... then we might give serious thought to if making that have meaning in the evaluator has value.
(making it cost the same is based on something I'm calling "mirrored types", which is a probably-too-fancy way of saying certain cell categories give up one of their header bytes in order to keep a copy of their type, so that when REB_PATH is used to overwrite their main type they can still have a place to look and find out what they were...and this is always in sync so some code always looks at the mirrored type vs. main. Some cell categories can do this, others can't. ANY-WORD! can.)
 
11:28 PM
@rgchris any notions on how it might work?
 
I'd imagine some type of mapping to the object/events model. I'm not sure how VID-like you'd want it to be.
 
I'm sympathetic to why one would want to be wary of "just having /foo be a 2-element path". Because without the mirrored type optimization--then on storage alone, becoming a real series-underlied PATH! would mean each refinement would cost over 10x as many bytes (not to mention the loss of locality, overhead for GC, etc.)
Interestingly, because this mirrored type strategy is generalized, it wouldn't just work for path...it means you could fit an immutable 1-element block or group entirely inside a cell. Correspondingly making it cost 10x less than such a 1-element block or group would cost today.
I don't know how common immutable 1-element blocks are, but we could give you oneblock x and onegroup y and you could use them instead of reduce [x] or reduce '(x), and save yourself some overhead.
@giuliolunati ^-- how often do you think you modify the products of ENBLOCK or ENGROUP? They could be read only, by default, and you could COPY them if you needed mutability. This would make ENBLOCK very fast.
 

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