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12:03 AM
@MarkI The discussions about how exits and errors should be handled, brought up by that guy from the Lisp macro question, and ensuing tickets all post-date the code and comment by a while.
In any case, if you need supporting knowledge to help with reviewing the code, you can ask a question... and note the ability to do so via line comments. If you see something you don't understand, click on the line and write what you don't understand, and I can try and explain it. Note current conversation in progress)
(how "futuristic"...)
 
 
2 hours later…
2:15 AM
@Ashley More notes on this on the Rebol 2 to Rebol 3 page by @Brett
 
@rgchris I probably should add Ashley's comments to that page. The page should be cleaner too (one day).
If anyone wants to port it into a better format be my guest.
@HostileFork I've had a couple of cases where I wanted to talk to a console program interactively. E.g see note (2) in call-server. A call scheme makes sense I guess. Then Call or Pipe would wrap that scheme as a shortcut perhaps.
 
@Brett A "scheme" for CALL has been suggested before. If someone would write up how it would work and what it would look like, and how it would achieve the necessary spectrum of functionality, then that would be useful.
 
@HostileFork I'll add it to my todo list. But I'm not across the internals and non-windows platform requirements so others will have to take it further.
 
@Brett Can you rephrase "not across the internals and non-windows platform requirements" ...?
 
I'm not a low level programmer and I only use windows :-)
 
2:25 AM
Okay. :-)
Well, that doesn't really change much from the user side, if you know what ports are supposed to do and how they are supposed to work. Most of what I know about how they are supposed to work came out of studying @GrahamChiu's SL4A for Android
 
Yep. Well I'll draft something, then people can add their own requirements to it and hopefully it will be feasible.
Thinking about R2 to R3. It would be nice if there was a knowledgebase built upon tests that one could run on your Rebol3 executable and have it spit out the current items (e.g. bugs) relevant to the exe you are running. Could use the existing rebol test format with an optional string description as first position in the test block for compatibility with the test suite.
A known-issues function.
 
2:42 AM
@Brett Anything helps. Right now our big question is on what to do about the indexing change for existing R3 users
That means going to foo/0 raising an error, foo/-1 being one back, foo/1 being the current position.
The "zero hole"
 
Oh.
Like Rebol 2?
@HostileFork True.
 
@HostileFork Cool, good to know, and I will get to it.
 
@Brett I think Rebol2 returned none for foo/0 instead of errored
What worries me is that DocKimbel felt the 1-based indexing and the gap was bothersome in Red/System, so he was thinking of changing the default for the systems level to be zero based.
 
@HostileFork [managed to muck up my earlier line] That's true. Rebol 2 returns none!.
 
This being done under the umbrella of "it's a dialect, and a dialect can make new rules for how paths are processed, so there's nothing chaining Red/System to behaving like Red"
A similar umbrella invoked to say that print in Red/System doesn't put out a newline with a string, while in Red proper it does...
"Full stack language" starts looking a bit less appealing, and sounds like a recipe for mistakes.
 
2:50 AM
@HostileFork As long as they're both Ren, we're still pretty good :)
 
So from my point of view, it seems that both the high and the low level need a good answer for both zero-based and 1-based work.
 
@HostileFork I'd have to agree with that. Unpleasant experience.
 
So I started saying "we need to put on thinking hats here". How can we leave the natural indexing but come up with something new?
To start the bidding at "crazy", I said "well, if ISSUE! is a word, might getting an ISSUE-based index use that index as zero based?"
stuff: next [a b c d]
stuff/1 ;-- b
stuff/-1 ;-- a
index: 2
stuff/#index ;-- c
Not necessarily the greatest idea in the world, but I'm wondering if some kind of invention could be used for both the high and low level when zero based is what you want
 
Maybe just a relative pick?
But you aiming for a path.
 
PICKZ, POKEZ, INDEXZ?, OFFSETZ? ... these were the proposed compromise.
Well, just wondering if there's something creative we're missing that would make zero based indexing not ugly/painful.
If you pick with a decimal number, round it and do zero based. :-)
 
2:55 AM
If you want zero based would it be because you have a particular data structure in mind?
 
stuff: next [a b c d]
stuff/1 ;-- b
stuff/-1 ;-- a
stuff/1.0 ;-- c
stuff/0.0 ;-- b
Kidding, but I wonder if we've thought through all the possibilites yet.
 
@HostileFork I really like it! If you're "floating", zero is a valid index :)
 
Could a special path element be refering to the zero index?
 
Ruins selecting with floats, though. But who does that? :)
 
I thought of that, a kind of mode modifier.
 
2:57 AM
Or should blocks have attributes - just being crazy...
I'm a block that should be refered to with zero indexing.
Nah...
 
Also probably counter to the "zero-based is there for efficiency" if we had to convert to float all the time.
 
That would be crazy. Anyway, I kind of liked the issue idea.
 
@HostileFork That's less crazy?
 
Well, it's got a clear marker that something weird is going on.
It's a word type.
 
Forcing people to use words instead of numbers to get zero-indexing? I thought you hated that!
But maybe it actually fits that usage pattern. What do I know ...
 
3:00 AM
With Lit-Bit you could say foo/'#name and still search for #name in foo, as you would be able to do foo/':name etc.
Well the main use is for math indexing, not literal picking, and the argument is about continuum selection.
So the concern I have isn't so much that you don't ask for literal zero-based integers, but that parens wouldn't have a clean answer.
But DocKimbel has, in the past, argued that you can always just put an expression in a variable and that's why you "don't even need parens in paths"
 
Why give up parens in paths?
 
(not an answer for a non-imperative dialect of Rebol, but, that's not his angle.)
He doesn't like the spaces or idea they can be arbitrarily long.
 
Hm. Don't make big ones.
 
foo/(you started a path and now you're really far on and you forgot you were in a path)/bar
Well, it's a set of problems about taking a tight-knit "word-like" thing that seemed atomic and spreading it out so it grows beyond what he finds "tasteful".
Along with some other issues, that you can ask him about specificially.
 
A path is a type of block so it's only the ugliness at the beginning and end that may be a problem.
 
3:05 AM
In a language that is freeform, I want to be allowed my monstrosities. [foo bar]/(baz mumble)/%filename/@"http://hostilefork.com"/[() () ()] I might need that.
 
as in /( isn't pretty by it's lonesome.
@HostileFork I agree.
Though I wonder about the first block :-)
Perhaps it should be a word.
 
The leanings on NewPath in particular are to read domain: "hostilefork" tld: "com" http://[domain "." tld]/(str: "lmth.xedni" reverse str) and give back http://hostilefork.com/index.html.
So I don't want to break any of that.
 
url now evaluates a block?
 
That's a PATH! in my world with a SET-WORD! at the beginning.
 
o
Cool.
 
3:10 AM
to-path [http: # [domain "." tld] (str: "lmth.xedni" reverse str)]
Dispatch of a set-word at head of paths treats it as a scheme, resolves to URL!, keeps grinding as today with:
 
But...
 
>> foo: http://
== http://

>> foo/hostilefork.com
== hostilefork.com
So imagine a similar processing for paths which just happen to have set-words in their first slot and wind up getting evaluated.
 
Ok.
 
And imagine the natural and unavoidable part of that, which is that if you want an actual URL!, that doesn't have path magic and is "just a string", you'll need to indicate that.
My proposed indicator is to be like FILE! with a prefix, so @ instead of %
 
I don't quite understand how you end up with the url
 
3:14 AM
Path dispatch (ideally) proceeds left to right, with whatever type is evaluated to on the left of a step getting to interpret the type on the right.
So above, foo is evaluated and it gets back a URL!
Then, URL! elects to interpret the word to its right as its string form, and appends it.
 
But isn't http:// doing double duty as set word plus path and as url?
 
So this would be a trick letting set-word! evaluate to a URL! literal with its character representation.
 
0
A: Does anyone have an efficient R3 function that mimics the behaviour of find/any in R2?

rgchrisI've broken this into two functions: one that creates a rule to match the given search value, and the other to perform the search. Separating the two allows you to reuse the same generated parse block where one search value is applied over multiple iterations: expand-wildcards: use [literal][ ...

 
Above is an example in Rebol3/Rebol2 as they stand.
It is just to show that there is precedent for paths doing weird stuff like turning words into strings and appending them.
For mine to work you would write more like:
>> foo: quote http: ;-- a SET-WORD!

>> foo//hostilefork.com
== hostilefork.com ;-- a URL!
Well, you probably wouldn't write that too often. But anyway, just pointing at how the dispatch gets kicked off.
Anyway, these are ideas, seemingly a longer way off than they should be as integrating my changes just stabilizing the system is looking like it could take years if I don't figure out a faster way.
Hence, I am looking at figuring out a faster way.
 
@HostileFork But foo is an url and path is modifying the url to return an url. Yours starts with set-word and ends with an url. It's a little brain bending.
 
3:20 AM
Path doesn't modify, it evaluates to produce a new thing.
In the first example (Rebol2 and Rebol3 as stands) foo is a URL!. In my last example, foo is a SET-WORD!
 
Currently if you have x: [#a former a latter] then you cannot write a path that symbolically accesses the latter.
 
Nevertheless the current situation I can accept easily - I'm having difficulty getting in to yours. But maybe the problem is familiarity
 
Do you think this violates consistency @HostileFork?
Would New-Path allow it?
 
@MarkI I propose that x/'#a would access former, while x/'a would access latter.
 
What about if I said it was x: ['a former a latter] then?
 
3:22 AM
@MarkI New path does not make a URL! unless you decorate it. @http://hostilefork.com is a URL!. http://hostilefork.com is a PATH!.
As %foo/baz/bar is a FILE! and foo/baz/bar is a PATH!
 
@HostileFork Erm, I'm talking blocks, and selecting therefrom, not urls.
 
Oh. I get confused who's pinging what.
 
Misreply, I figured that out eventually too.
I didn't mean to hijack, my apologies @Brett @HostileFork
 
No apology needed.
 
@MarkI x/''a acesses the former, while x/'a accesses the latter. This is why I said Lit-Bit is actually lit-count, and I proposed 2 bits in the header and stopping there. That gives you 3 lits, and after that, forget you. :-P
 
3:26 AM
So a path like word/word/word/word becomes word/'word/'word/'word in NewPath?
 
Lit-Bit and NewPath are separate proposals.
 
I think I better have lunch to feed the grey matter. TTYL
 
Seeya later...
 
What about if I said it was old-path and lit-bit ... would my question even make sense? :)
 
Yes
 
3:28 AM
And your answer, also yes?
 
My answer is that lit-bit is new and just being thought about. Clearly the current leaning is that usually you want to look up words without evaluating them, so foo/index needs to be foo/:index or foo/(index) if you want foo[index]
 
I think you can see where I'm going, if the default treatment of a bare-word in a path (new or lit, or both I guess) becomes indirect, well then what's get-word going to do?
 
This is fairly entrenched. Is it the most orthogonal way of thinking about it? It does show a disconnect between pick foo index and pick foo 'index.
Zero based indexing :-P
Well, I don't really know the answer about lit-bit, it's an interesting idea that needs to be experimented with to understand what it can do and can't. But we won't get to those experiments if the code isn't "stable and something you can modify with confidence"
So review away... I need to crunch some more at it.
And I will point out that with NewPath, even if it winds up getting panned from the core evaluator to do the tricks, that isn't really even the point of it.
It wasn't conceived to do useful things in DO in the first place.
It's the structural availability to dialect authors. If it happens to have some cool Rebol applications so much the better.
I expect it will be cool.
 
 
4 hours later…
7:21 AM
Interestingly, decimals in paths cause a search (matching either number!) while integers in paths are indexed dereferences.
This may be a feature we want to keep. It may not.
 
 
1 hour later…
8:53 AM
I have the perfect answer to the zero vs one base issue ... map the problem domain to the numerical system. It's quite obvious really ... use **Arabic Numerals** for zero-based and **Roman Numerals** for one-based!

I think that **b/0 = b/I** is quite intuitive. Of course we’ll need to add support for **++ IX** and the like!

(I am joking if anyone is wondering)
 
 
1 hour later…
10:20 AM
I'd vote for an /cardinal refinement when you need zero based. Make people spell out that they are stepping out of the normal cardinal rules of rebol, and going /cardinal
And if you want to set a state, cardinal on then any further picks and indexes are breaking the cardinal rule.
All operations pull from the ordinal offset, 0 or 1. If cardinal is on, then add a /ordinal refinement as well, to make things orthogonal
I disliked PICKZ when I first saw it, still do.
Then again, I'm a COBOL guy, we don't even have zero length strings. They came after the invention of COBOL, many centuries later.
If efficiency is an issue, and refinements are too expensive, have cardinal on change an assembler instruction don't even bother with a memory fetch or a conditional, just change the state of the instruction.
Anything but Z words. :-)
 
11:08 AM
World War Z - movie about zombies. Are 0 based proponents IT zombies? :-)
 
 
2 hours later…
1:25 PM
Slow progress on rebolbot. We are just missing the new chatusr cookie which is stopping the posts working. I just need to find where to grab it from and add it to the cookie jar. At least I got something posting from r3 by copying and pasting cookies from a browser.
All in all, good news as it means that the trickier oauth stuff is still working fine :-)
 
 
1 hour later…
2:36 PM
@johnk Thanks for the update!
 
3:30 PM
@johnk Good about Oauth; if anything is confusing you might ask the javascript room about their bot
 
 
1 hour later…
4:47 PM
0
Q: Return only object words but not functions defined with colon as the suffix

LuisWhen an object! is created as below: REBOL [] Room: make object! [ price: copy "" area: copy "" total: func [] [ price * 2 ] set 'total2 func [] [ price * 3 ] ] The result of probe Room is: make object! [ price: "" area: "" total: make ...

 
5:18 PM
0
A: Return only object words but not functions defined with colon as the suffix

HostileFork The function total: is printed, but the function total2 is not. Binding-wise, your total2 is bound to the enclosing context...not the object. So if you were to run that from the console: >> Room: make object! [ price: copy "" area: copy "" total: func [] [ price * 2 ...

 
5:33 PM
@Ashley There's a certain amount of arbitrary-ness in roman numerals. Unary is the only counting system that makes sense. Rebol should have an answer for analog literals
 
 
2 hours later…
7:52 PM
In the "why didn't I just think of that sooner" department, I realized that a stable stack simulation can be achieved just by allocating a really big stack, and then refusing to expand it.
Which is not a good implementation of course, but it's an interim way of working with code written to the assumption of stack stability (if you've bought into the idea that such stability is a non-negotiable property of call frames)
 
 
2 hours later…
10:04 PM
@ShixinZeng I noticed on a 32-bit build this assertion I added is firing: assert(sizeof(struct Struct_Data) != sizeof(REBVAL));
The reason I added it is because I noticed you were creating a new custom kind of series, and I was worried about this test: #define IS_BLOCK_SERIES(s) (SERIES_WIDE(s) == sizeof(REBVAL))
As I'll usually say when pointing out such things, I must begin by going "Rightly or wrongly, the way it works is...", and in Rebol's case there are places in the system that assume that a series contains Rebol Values if it's width is the size of a REBVAL.
There aren't a lot of places that use that test (most code processes REBVALs and knows from context if it's an ANY-BLOCK!). But the garbage collector is one place that just has series and no values necessarily on hand holding them... so it needs to know when a series is value-containing or not.
The right answer is probably to take a series flag for it. I've been wondering what the point of SER_BARE is anyway, as object frames could be the ones to decide not to do more than just mark their word series. Perhaps it could be repurposed to mean "does not contain REBVALs". Anyway, just a heads up on that.
 
10:51 PM
There are a lot of places in Rebol where something says in parentheses (atomic).
"You keep using that word... I don't think it-a means, what you think-a it means."
 
What does it mean in this context?
I'm only familiar with C11/C++11 atomic types.
 
It looks like it means that he thought that writing #define FOO(x) ((x) = 1) would be atomic, while #define BAR(x) ((x) = 1, (x)++) would not be because it consisted of multiple operations.
So as far as I can tell it's a measure of how many statements there are in a macro.
Which means... nothing where "atomicity" is concerned, on compilers and architectures of today. Though perhaps on systems he was once working with, it meant something.
 
Well, it works with VM-enabled languages, not with C.
 
As far as I'm concerned, the comments are noise, along with anything next to a malloc() that says "remember to free it!"
Just that one?
 
More than noise, it might even be confusing.
 
10:57 PM
Of all the comments one might write...
 
++i; // increment i
 

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