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12:00 AM
@Morwenn Yup, basically that's what I'm thinking. Just wondering if there's any better way. Rebol has all these macros, and one option would be to say "just use inline functions" but part of the puzzle here is writing something weird. It doesn't make much sense to be writing something weird if we aren't compiling the weird though.
So I'd like to see us build for a platform which doesn't have inline functions...
 
Return<int> is convertible to int, Parameter<int> can be constructed from int and is convertible to int. Double conversions are not allowed by the language. That's settled.
Or so I think. But I may be a little tired.
 
 
2 hours later…
1:48 AM
Thanks for the upvotes guys. This is all kinda new to me so I'll probably be in lurker mode a while yet. I'm pleasantly surprised by both the level of activity/engagement here, and the "Rebol spirit" that comes through clearly in both the conversation and technical direction.
4
 
@Ashley Glad to hear it. If you want to read some high points, or general notes, the "starred posts" at right can walk you through some history. If you click on the link icon at the left of a message, you can jump to read a conversation in context.
Chat supports basic markdown constructs. So in the above I had typed: [the "starred posts" at right](http://chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/info/291/rebol-and-red/?tab=stars). Two asterisks for **bold** (bold) and one asterisk for *italic* (italic)
 
0
A: Does anyone have an efficient R3 function that mimics the behaviour of find/any in R2?

AshleyHere's a stab at handling the "*" case: like: funct [ series [series!] search [series!] ][ rule: copy [] remove-each s b: parse/all search "*" [empty? s] foreach s b [ append rule reduce ['to s] ] append rule [to end] all [ parse series rule ...

 
2:45 AM
posted on July 25, 2015 by shawndumas

[Hacker News] The Rebol Scripting Language on drdobbs.com (1 point)

 
3:31 AM
@HostileFork Here's a late-night thought on this.
Consider how dates with a time become a date followed by a time in paths, one element becoming two.
There are three ways to "deal with" "the ugliness of" this behaviour:
1) Change the separator character from / to some other character like \
2) Leave it as is so that they break on / in paths; to keep joined you could use a paren or some other separator like \
3) Make dates "grabby" so that they incorporate the time; a paren will break them if you want that
Coincidentally this seems to parallel the three ways I've thought of to handle urls and files in paths:
1) Change the separator character from / to some other character like \
2) Make them "giving" so that they break on / in paths; to join you could use a paren or some other separator like \
3) Leave it as is; a paren can break them if you want that
To me, it seems like for consistency we should choose the same option number from both triples.
If I'm right, it means we must change something.
 
I'm of the feeling that we really need to get a NewPath-enabled Rebol in our hands to see what happens.
It's very hard to predict all the ups and downs of it and what will work well and what won't.
 
I'm of the feeling that we should make what we have consistent so that we can understand the consequences of change.
 
A good idea as well.
But if you're talking about file literals in paths you're not really talking about what we have today, anymore.
 
Not a great idea maybe, but perhaps something that can work in the short term while real language design takes place.
@HostileFork Pardon? We do have file literals in paths, that behave as in option 3 ("grabby").
 
foo/%bar/baz works? Hm, didn't know.
 
3:41 AM
Yah, it's length 2.
Basically where I'm coming from here is to change all those letter groups into YYY and NNN and as few other cases as possible.
 
I think you should have to say foo/%"bar/baz" or foo/file!{bar/baz} or foo/%{bar/baz} to get that.
So my only question is if foo/%bar/baz should give you a three element path or be an error.
 
The problem with %"foo/bar" is that it's not the canonical output. If we're going for mold/load consistency, we need a paren.
 
It could be canonical output if it's in a path.
 
Hmmm, didn't think of that!
I'd be wary of varying canonical output by context, but, that's a knee-jerk reaction I have to anything ...
 
The main thing I've been hmmming over is this issue of whether to ease up on the demands NewPath has where it would turn every %foo/baz/bar into a path and then depend on evaluation to make element 1 a FILE!, then stringify baz and append /baz, and then stringify bar and append that... or to let it be a prefixed string literal as today.
 
3:46 AM
I don't even know if files can have slashes in their names if you encode the / to %2F ... !
 
Which was my original thought, because I wanted to be able to say %foo/(some expression to do)/[some expression to combine or join]
And I can't do that if %foo/ gets "grabby" and tries to go eat the parentheses and brackets.
But... bending the compromise another way, it can be done with %"foo"/(...)/[...]
 
Does that mean you'd go for "slashes stop files if you are in a path"? I am kind of on the fence here.
 
I'm wondering if for consistency's sake, making it illegal is the thing to do.
 
This is one of the two questions I told everybody I was going to need their help on.
 
You have to put it in quotes, or use parentheses, or something.
Because the ambiguity is bad.
 
3:49 AM
@HostileFork I don't want to force () circumlocution unless it's driven by strong reasoning.
 
You can do it with quotes or construction syntax.
But parentheses if you want (e.g. building that exact structure isn't important)
 
As long as it's consistent, any default behaviour becomes more reasonable, even if it's the rarer option for your use case.
 
I think it seems reasonable. If you start a sequence out with %foo... then it can consume the slashes all the way down the line.
 
@HostileFork Right. That's why it would work in the parentheses.
 
Same with @ for URLs. But if you don't start with it, then you're in a path.
 
3:52 AM
Essato.
 
And once in a path, any files must have an additional form of delimiting to know their ending.
Hm, but even if they're terminal? a/b/c/%foo :-/
 
Terminal is fine as-is.
 
Well, we can think on what's consistent there.
I don't know about the dates. My original thought was that in path dispatch, if a date! saw a TIME! as the next value in the path it would evaluate to pick them both up.
 
@HostileFork Right, my option 3.
At first I thought the default was dead wrong. Now I like it better and want the same for files, go figure ...
And it's like Carl saw this coming, since the \ separator as it works now would provide infix file joining in mid-path.
 
I don't think in general we're going to see that many file literals in the middle of paths.
 
3:58 AM
@HostileFork No, of course not, I would be surprised to see one, ever.
But we're talking consistency, and that's ... never really real.
 
You will see perhaps things like %"foo"/[(either condition %bar %baz) %.html)]
 
It's what the language does when used in a way we can't even think of that "really" matters.
 
Hm, you'd think FILE! would be more popular for doing short string literal appends. append "abc" %def is one character fewer than append "abc" "def" or append {abc} {def}
 
In fact, I was just thinking the other day, with all these types I'm supporting in the lexer, I doubt if the kind of coding I want to use Rebol for would use more than 3. I'm all about utypes and language extensions, and I can't wait ...
 
@MarkI It sometimes happens like that.
But if you design things, sometimes they're used as intended.
 
4:03 AM
@HostileFork Cool idea, never thought of that one either. Did the same work for R2 with issue-strings?
 
Presumably
 
Yep, just checked. I miss our bots, waah ...
 
I'm sure they'll come back in a bit.
Well, I've had a pretty grueling time of trying to pick apart my pending "big changes" into manageable bits. Each time I think I've got a manageable bit I find out it depends on something that depends on something that needs to be checked in first.
So... I need to rest a bit and then I'll attack it again. Got to get ahead back to the point where new features are coming online.
 
@HostileFork I, for one, am extremely appreciative of the hours and hours of awful drudgery you have had to endure HF.
 
@MarkI Thanks :-) Yes, it is a pain. But hopefully it will pay off here in a bit.
Hoping it's not too long before the definitionally scoped returns and custom OP!s are in, but there's some less flashy stuff to do first. Tomorrow, tomorrow. Nite!
 
4:26 AM
-- nite HF
 
 
5 hours later…
9:15 AM
posted on July 25, 2015 by qtxie

FEAT: enable visual styles on Windows XP by qtxie

 
9:49 AM
posted on July 25, 2015 by draegtun

[Reddit] The Rebol Scripting Language (2000)

posted on July 25, 2015 by draegtun

[Reddit] Rebol Home Automation With Insteon [video | Carl Sassenrath | ReCode Montreal 2013]

 
 
2 hours later…
12:10 PM
@MarkI +1. I think this approach is part of what I called "PredictablePath" before. But as this approach never got specified, it's all handwavy. So I very much appreciate your progress towards rigour.
@MarkI I think I'd prefer (2) [slashes-stop-in-paths] slightly over (3) [slash-grabbing-paths] (and (2) without the "some other separator" variant). I strongly agree that this cleanup is necessary.
 
posted on July 25, 2015 by NikolayShubenkovProgSchool

gisuydfs igdfsiug diufsg idufsg iludfg ldfix bydxlb yxdfib ydxfiovb ydofiby odfixb yfxdiob ydofx yboiudfxybouidxfy xdfioub doxfby dofuxyb oidxb ydxoiub ydxfobiu ydfxbioud xyfiouby dxfiob yoiudfxoobdixf bydfxioub ydfoi

 
^-- I don't think they had to say "please".
@earl I don't like it if %foo/baz/bar is a FILE! and foo/%baz/bar is either a 3-element PATH! with a %baz in the middle or a 2-element path with %baz/bar as the second element, so if we are to lean to a world where %foo/baz/bar is still a FILE! as today then I would say foo/%baz/bar should just be illegal.
 
12:25 PM
@HostileFork I prefer that not become illegal.
 
You can still get it with foo/%"baz"/bar or foo/%"baz/bar" or similar methods.
 
Why?
Either you allow file! in paths, or you don't.
So you'd have to get it with foo/(%baz/bar).
Especially when you only want to use a terminal file!, foo/%bar being a valid seems both worthwhile and sensible to me.
 
This is "natural" level lexical syntax. I don't understand what a statement like "Either you allow file in paths, or you don't" means. That's like having a string and saying "either you allow quotes in strings or you don't"
You use escaping, it's contextual, and if you're entering source there are ways you do it to avoid ambiguities and keep the source sensible.
 
%"foo" and %foo are the same lexical class, at the moment.
Whereas #[file! "foo"] and (%foo) are not.
 
The fact is that when you are looking at foo/%baz/bar, whatever you decide to write up in a manual, someone looking at that (myself included, if not especially, aware of the discussion) feels it is ambiguous. You really shouldn't have to go look up a rulebook to decide what that is.
 
12:29 PM
@HostileFork That argument is true for all precedence cases.
 
So disallowing it and making you write something blatant and obviously clear is better than picking one half of the ambiguity and saying "we'll go with that"
I'd be for it stopping if %foo/baz/bar were a 3-element path. It would make sense.
 
1 + 2 * 3 is, unfortunately, ambiguous and you'll have to look up in the rule-book.
 
Then %foo/baz/bar is a 3-element path, foo/%baz/bar is a 3-element path, and foo/baz/%bar is a 3-element path.
If you mess with that, you need to adapt accordingly to keep people from having a jumbled mess in their heads. And in Rebol, the fact that 1 + 2 * 3 requires you to get out the rulebook for OP! and not the rulebook for + or * specifically is the nature of having a rulebook that is small and strategic for what it needs to be.
 
I feel that with (3) [slashes-stop-in-paths], the PATH! rulebook can be similarly small and strategic.
Highlights the rule of () in paths as "universal escape" when you want to build strange-looking things.
 
Slashes grab in paths is the smaller rule, because then %foo/baz/bar being a FILE! makes sense.
 
12:35 PM
This rule becomes contextual, so, no. Not smaller. You need to know which datatypes support slash-grabbing.
 
You have to use delimiters %"foo/baz"/bar to get back into paths.
URL! and FILE!
 
Wrong
 
foo/baz/@http://mumble/frotz.html
 
Want to try again?
 
12:36 PM
Making (%foo/baz)/bar legal is another aspect of PredictablePath. Allow all types as root, escape with paren where necessary.
(DATE!)
(Also, (%foo)/bar.)
 
Those should be legal, but they might not be the structure you want in a dialect.
I see no reason to disallow %"foo"/bar or %"foo/baz"/bar or %{foo}/bar or %{foo/baz}/bar (pending my understanding of percent-encoding of things like spaces, which in my view doesn't belong in Rebol at all when you can use spaces there).
And for construction syntax, also legal file!{foo}/bar and file!{foo/baz}/bar, possibly with quotes as well.
 
@HostileFork Yup, that's most likely a good relaxation to add as well.
So, good news, only three pull requests previously merged into mainline were missing from Atronix (and, thus, most likely undone in Ren/C).
 
@earl Good.
 
Six more were partially missing, mostly just comments, though.
And one, #183 was purposefully reverted in Atronix. Someone will have to find out, why. I'm not re-applying this for now.
 
12:53 PM
I keep thinking I can patch in some piece of work, and then it unwinds until I realize it actually depends on another piece, and the aggregate of putting in all the pieces destabilizes things too much, so I have to revert out and go put the smaller piece in isolated.
 
 
1 hour later…
1:55 PM
@earl Parse project (rebol.net) is down. What's the best way to no-op in a parse rule in Rebol3?
 
2:11 PM
@HostileFork Small pull request to discuss if needed :)
But let's wait for Travis to complete its job, just in case.
 
@Morwenn Nice... as Dr. Rebmu would say, "briefer is better"! Look how much space we have in code for picture of dog... :-)
// _..                ,,.-'ヽ
//ヽ "゙ー-、、         / : :!
// i 、 :. ヽヽ_,,.....、,,,....._;/ ,;'   ;,.!
//  i.,  ..;;;ヽ       ヾ ,,;_ , /
//  ヾ_:::,:'           -,ノ
//  ヾ;.   ,         , 、;,
//    ;;   (:::) , ... 、, (:::);:
//    `;.       C)   ,; '
//    ,;'     '.、 -‐-ノ ,;'、
//   ;'            ;:
//    ;:            ';;
 
Fun :)
 
Gotta get a Chihuahua ascii art in the Rebmu somehow.
 
Just to be sure, running the main CMake also runs the testsuite, right?
 
Not automatically, I think you have to tell it to cmake test or similar.
 
2:16 PM
Ugh, then let's really wait for Travis.
Ok, so 3 builds out of 4 in the Matrix failed. I don't understand why though.
 
@Morwenn Something I did. :-)
 
Also, just a note: the latest Catch builds have been enhanced and support expressions such as CHECK( 1 + 2 == 2 + 1 ); which weren't supported before :)
 
We will continue to have those kinds of things if Ren/C++ pulls from master unless I keep it up to date w/all the changes to Ren/C
 
@HostileFork I'll let you fix it then? I have to go soon :/
 
@Morwenn NP, thanks! I'm sure it will work fine.
It's probably as simple as Get_Var => GET_VAR let me look
 
2:21 PM
@HostileFork I have some doubts. I changed some statements to expressions since CHECK_THROWS_AS requires an expression (at least in the doc) and I hope it didn't beak anything.
Well, I will let you handle it anyway. See you later :)
 
l8r...
 
@HostileFork NONE
>> parse "foobar" ["foo" none "bar"]
== true
 
Hmmmm.
That seems a bit confusing with parse ["foo" # "bar"] ["foo" none "bar"]. I guess the general "re-use words already taken by Rebol" principle is overriding there.
If void happens maybe it would make more sense?
parse ["foo" "bar"] ["foo" void "bar"]
As parsing for unsets would be more rare, we'd assume, and void is not tied so intrinsically to a specific type more the notion of "nothing to say here, no op"
 
>> parse ["foo" # "bar"] ["foo" none! "bar"]
== true
 
Right, just imagining people getting mixed up between the two.
 
2:32 PM
Forward-port of missing mainline changes to Atronix: github.com/zsx/r3/pull/26
Now only have to transplant that onto Ren/C.
@HostileFork Crash() is now called Panic(), do I remember correctly?
 
@earl Yup (attempt to shift a word that could mean anything and mean something more specific, though it really needs to thus print the phrase "panic" when dumping said errors for that to be finished)
Didn't completely originally choose the term, as the codes were RP_ (rebol panic) so I went with it.
Panic() is now a macro that will assert, so if you're in a debug build it doesn't just exit and lose your state...
Little improvements here and there.
 
3:15 PM
0
A: Does anyone have an efficient R3 function that mimics the behaviour of find/any in R2?

HostileForkI had edited your question for "clarity" and changed it to say 'was removed'. That made it sound like it was a deliberate decision. Yet it actually turns out it may just not have been implemented. BUT if anyone asks me, I don't think it should be in the box...and not just because it's a lousy ...

 
> Isn't there some way Rebol3 can do a RETURN in PARSE so the IF based on matching/non-matching isn't needed?
>> parse "foobar" [return "foo"]
== "foo"

>> parse "qux" [return "foo"]
== false
>> parse "qux" [return skip]
== "q"
> return rule -- match the rule, and if true, immediately return the matched input as result of the PARSE function
 
Hm, it didn't work for me when I did it for some reason, maybe typo.
>> parse "abc" [skip pos: return pos]
== "bc"
That's what I wanted, and did not get, for some reason.
 
3:33 PM
Wonder how hard that RegEx compiler would be to write. The idea of a "block" input to RegEx is curious... like capture groups using parens. So however their notation goes, being able to have the matching of the parens taken care of by the Rebol parser, as well as using literal parens in strings.
I don't read RegEx, but: (abc|def)=\g{1} matches abc=abc or def=def, but not abc=def or def=abc.
Hmmm, they use backslash in their language for things besides escaping. :-(
But language-wise, you could say that parentheses with an integer is how you refer to a capture group. [("abc" | "def") "=" (1)].
A good first start might be a Rebolified-RegEx to RegEx-string compiler, to get the dialect hammered out and complete. Once that's done, try compiling it to PARSE.
 
@HostileFork And parallel or before that, a simple glob-string to PARSE rule compiler.
That'd be very useful.
 
Ah right, those have a name.
I like the idea of the primitives just assuming you want a transformation to a parse rule, vs having additional functionality themselves... though the leaking of variables in parse rules is a problem. Is there a USE, planned or implemented?
parse "some string" glob "s?r" / parse "some string" glob ["s" ? "r"]
 
3:49 PM
["s" one "r"] / ["s" any "r"]
 
Yes, probably worthwhile to rename / re-engineer the block form.
As the RegEx example above shows, you have to.
 
So, I think I'll remove the BIN_SUFFIX detection from the generated makefile.
As it's based on make's platform, it is rather annoying in cross-compilation (eg: Linux make, Windows compiler).
 
You are free to do what you like, though note I was trying to make it possible for the generated makefile to be used to make make between linux and windows in the same directory
But after getting fed up with that, I added a .gitignore rule and just keep multiple make-* directories
Which is a lot better.
 
Agreed.
I also think about renaming makefile.boot back to plain makefile, and use a longer name for the generated makefiles. Such as makefile.local, or something. Or maybe r3-<target>.mk.
 
I would say push to the makesomething.reb answer sooner vs. later.
 
3:53 PM
But still thinking. With Ren/C, I currently don't use the generated makefiles directly at all.
 
You kick off the boot process with r3-make makesomething.reb (...args...).
Keeping it as "makefile" and letting you type "make" is good, if a makefile is what you're making.
 
Well, with bootstrap makefile renamed to just makefile we'd be back to bootstrapping and building with just make again.
 
@earl Also, in at least one travis test, the Rebol pulled to do the bootstrap make should be one from rebol.com so we keep things stable-like until conscious decision to break it.
 
@HostileFork Well, the Rebol pulled is a mainline build. But ok, maybe doing one test with A111 is worth it too.
 
@earl I don't want any generated files to be version control tracked, so that's a personal non-negotiable.
 
3:58 PM
@HostileFork Fine, but where I am suggesting something different?
 
I don't know.
But you're wanting every time someone wants to make to type make -f make.generated or similar, and I'm suggesting I don't see the point of that
 
No, I'm suggesting just type make.
 
And it dispatches to the generated file?
 
Just as makefile.boot does at the moment, yes.
Rename makefile.boot (under version control) to makefile, have make-make.reb generate makefile (not under version control) as makefile.local.
 
How about go ahead and give it a name indicating what it's a makefile for? makefile-linux-32 or something?
 
4:00 PM
8 mins ago, by earl
I also think about renaming makefile.boot back to plain makefile, and use a longer name for the generated makefiles. Such as makefile.local, or something. Or maybe r3-<target>.mk.
Yes, thinking about that as well :)
 
Well by that token, one might be able to leave a CMakeLists.txt in the directory as well and go in it and type "cmake" also.
Though it might confuse IDEs. I don't know how well File->Open CMakeLists.txt could work in something like Qt Creator if you opened the bootstrap file.
 
I don't think that's how CMake wants to work. But we could certainly have a make cmake target in the bootstrap makefile.
 
And perhaps that's some of why not to do what you're suggesting. I think that being more clear about there being a generation process (again, my ideal being done via everything generated from a .reb in the directory as the sole checked in file) is some chance that when a makefile/CMakeLists.txt shows up that it be "sane-seeming".
Also, it means that the make directory isn't cluttered with things you're not going to use. So if you plan to build Rebol and don't plan to install GNU make on your system at all, you don't have to live with a version control tracked makefile sullying the directory...
As a working Rebol3 is a prerequisite to the build, we are envisioning a world where it is the only prerequisite, so I think it would be nice to inch closer to that now.
 
We can always remove the makefile once we get to a pure Rebol build. Until then, I don't think the makefile.boot indirection adds any value.
 
It adds the value of when we reach this point I convince you we put a Rebol script in that directory to replace it instead of going backwards. :-)
Reminded of a story about a question where there was this guy who found pieces of driftwood, and would carve and whittle them into animals...working within the constraint of how weird the wood was that he found to make that animal. So he had the before and after pictures of the process, and it was very detailed and such.
So someone was interviewing him and showing his process, and there was a question like "how can you do that? it's so amazing, to turn the driftwood into an owl/orca/ocelot (or whatever he had made)"
His answer was to the effect of: "Well, I look at the driftwood. And everything that doesn't look like an owl, I cut that part off."
I think that's a fairly universal principle of design. :-)
 
4:12 PM
@HostileFork Happened to notice that we actually use A111 from rebol.com to bootstrap: github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/blob/…
 
@earl Ah, cool. I didn't know, I try to keep my focus on C where possible...
If magic gnomes are making Travis builds, I have faith in the magic gnomes. :-)
 
The magic gnomes are working to get Windows x86 & x64 cross-compiles targets into the Travis builds.
3
 
4:30 PM
Here we go: Travis CI now tests building Linux/x86, Linux/x64, Windows/x86, and Windows/x64. Linux/x64 is built with and without NDEBUG, all other builds are NDEBUG=1.
3
 
@earl Very cool. Over the long term, the only thing I'll say of the NDEBUG=1 is that whatever build it is that runs the tests should do so without defining NDEBUG, when we're at that point.
 
Agreed. Maybe even all of them, but I'd want at least Linux/x64 to run the tests without NDEBUG.
At the moment, it's just for checking that both defined and undefined NDEBUG build.
 
If you've got any build checking that release builds, it's probably not necessary for both a release and debug 64-bit linux build. Just a debug one would cut down on the build churn in the "be nice to Travis" dept.
Then maybe run test on release 32-bit and debug 64-bit linux and consider that to be likely coverage of the core issues.
 
We're currently doing:
- debug Linux/x64
- release Linux/x64
- release Linux/x86
- release Windows/x64
- release Windows/x86
 
Yup. Just thinking out loud that were it me, I'd say strike release Linux/x64...and run test suite on debug Linux/x64 and release Linux/x86 (when we flip that on)
And probably do Windows/x86 as debug
Then that makes sure one 32-bit build is run through debug #ifdefs and one isn't, and same for 64-bit builds.
 
4:42 PM
Yup.
 
posted on July 25, 2015 by earl

This pull request incorporates all (except one) missing changes that were previously applied to mainline rebol/rebol but up to now missing from Atronix (and then mostly removed from Ren/C during the Atronix merge). The following three pull requests were missing completely: rebol/rebol#186 (BrianHawley/fix-2109-function-local-not-at-end) rebol/rebol#198 (BrianHawley/wish-2121-no-return-re

posted on July 25, 2015 by earl

This pull request incorporates all (except one) missing changes that were previously applied to mainline rebol/rebol but up to now missing from Atronix (and then mostly removed from Ren/C during the Atronix merge). The following three pull requests were missing completely: rebol/rebol#186 (BrianHawley/fix-2109-function-local-not-at-end) rebol/rebol#198 (BrianHawley/wish-2121-no-return-re

 
So, should we add TCC to the mix?
Probably.
Also, I'd like to at least add -Wall -Werror along with the known exceptions: -Wno-unused-variable -Wno-unused-parameter -Wno-long-long -Wno-switch.
Or at least "-Werror", without -Wall.
We'll get there, I guess :)
 
4:57 PM
@earl I don't know what the timing gap is between when the TCC build is a "Rebol with TCC build" and today's build-with-tcc. And if it's a "Rebol-with-TCC-build" then it would be done as a step inside of an existing platform configuration, because you'd need to build Rebol first.
So what we probably would do is make the Windows 64-bit build a Rebol-with-TCC build and the Linux 32-bit build a Rebol-with-TCC build
And just add a testing step where they build Rebol.
So the plan on that was to go ahead and make the TCC project a submodule in the extern directory or wherever, and figure out how to make the rebol --tcc act like TCC in processing of its args
And do whatever linker hack-and-slash it takes to make that happen.
 
Hmm, I think the rebol -tcc thing should be relatively easy; basically just replicating TCCs main (which is relatively short) inside Rebol. Any ideas about what to do with the required headers?
 
First idea was embed them compressed and find the part in TCC where it looks for files, if it's an internal header then don't go to the filesystem to get it
The other idea was to dump all the internal headers to some temp directory in the filesystem
Or to offer the option letting you say where to put them and not try the splice
 
Latter would be easier, I think. No idea about TCC's file lookup logic, though. Maybe that'll be trivial as well.
 
I guess look for fopen calls, see which ones are getting includes
 
5:17 PM
Looks like they have a "cached include" mechanism already? repo.or.cz/w/tinycc.git/blob/HEAD:/tccpp.c#l1660
Perhaps as easy as prepopulating the cache.
 
 
1 hour later…
6:35 PM
@earl Also, one can do #define main tcc_main and then include tcc's main...
Reduce the amount of modification needed at the outset, maybe.
 
 
1 hour later…
7:40 PM
@earl I only mention \ because
1) it would be a regression if %abc\def stopped being a valid lexical form for %abc/def
2) urls currently preserve backslashes, so disallowing \ in files would be inconsistent with that
3) (1) and (2) remain salient even if \ is only invalid in file literals when they occur in paths
I'd rather make as few changes as possible while still having maximal consistency as the over-riding goal.
 
@MarkI Thanks for clarifying. That was a misunderstanding on my part.
 
@earl Np. Awesome to agree with you :)
 
@MarkI Also agree on this one :)
 
Greetings to Earl. Glad you are here again :-)
 
@earl I wasn't recommending we allow \ to join date-times together in paths, but I am not against it.
 
7:44 PM
@MarkI In terms of prescriptivism I think that one area Rebol actually has a chance to help with would be to set a standard (or agree with the UNIX standard) that files use forward slashes. Allowing either is just asking to be part of the great divergence.
 
@HostileFork What about good ol' url then? Would you have \ stripped from its repertory too?
 
@MarkI I'd like to see support for more ISO8601-style dates added (as does @rgchris, IIRC). Specifically: 2015-01-01T20:45:00. That would then also work in paths.
 
@pekr Hi @pekr; good to be around :)
 
@earl That'd be fine with me too. Like I say, not recommending, not against.
 
7:47 PM
Sooo, after a minor header cleanup, I'm now happy to report that Ren/C also builds on FreeBSD (x86 and x64).
2
 
@HostileFork I am talking about "\" as a lexical form for a textual "/" in Rebol url!s, totally not anything to do with RFCs.
 
I can read it, stop your beeping.
\ is a difficult character, and as we repeatedly see its existing use for escaping makes its usage problematic.
I think expression barrier is its sweet spot and I'd hate to see it weaving its way into other naturals.
 
@HostileFork It is at best a secondary lexeme :)
 
So let's not have it in any natural files or pulling tricks like some/%C:\path\trick/like/this
 
@HostileFork You can "not do" anything you like!
 
7:55 PM
some/%{c:/path/trick/like}/this is okay.
 
Will also work fine, in double quotes. But it won't look like that when you SAVE/STRING it. (For readers: that's HF's mold :)
 
And perhaps even some/%{C:\path\trick\like}/this too. But when we're talking about this sigil-only string stuff, I think it has to be done carefully.
Shixin convinced me back to that I'd let myself be talked out of source too easily.
 
@HostileFork All right! The debate that can not die.
But, and please forgive me, making representing and loading be 1-1 is bigger than consistency, and I'm focussing on the latter.
@HostileFork But I will leave you with this ... oddity: colons are not allowed in file! s if neither escaped nor encoded.
Oh ho! It's the putting an 's' after the bolding that causes bolding not to work ...
 
@MarkI It seems the whole encoding thing needs to be given a review. People have expressed displeasure with the percent encoding issues with URLs. There needs to be a straight story on it, and I imagine that whatever the story is is what happens to FILE! too.
 
So at least %C: is a syntax error right now. And hopefully will be forever.
@HostileFork And emails, all three are %-encoded "network-aware" types.
 
8:04 PM
I prefer braced strings to quoted ones, and I prefer spaces to percents, so %{/Users/Brian/My Folder/File With Spaces.png} is the sort of default I'd want to be looking at.
That's the case that should be optimized for.
And matched to the case of %/usr/local/bin/we-know-better/than-to-put/spaces-in-filenames.tar.gz
 
@HostileFork Be careful, you may get what you wish for ... how would you handle a "}" character in a file?
 
The same way I'd handle them in strings.
 
Have you seen how they're handled in strings? :)
 
If they're used in a natural pairing, nicely.
 
:)
 
8:06 PM
%{/Users/Brian/My Folder/File With Spaces {1}.png}
and you won't get THAT offer from a certain OTHER quoting delimiter I could name.
@earl Yay platforms! If only there were users to go with them. :-)
 
I do agree that it is proper to make common cases easier while not making rare cases impossible.
But these forms will all be %-encoded at the back end, so how you "un-"encode them is an internal issue only.
 
@HostileFork There's this "build it and they will come" saying ...
 
@earl If you want ghosts, that is. What a disappointment that movie was.
 
@MarkI The tricky bit is that if you don't have the %{...} or %"...", then you are stuck with the %-encoded kinds of things we copy and paste around.
 
@HostileFork Well, when you're canonical, you're canonical. There's all sorts of ways to prettify things, is all I'm saying.
 
8:16 PM
@HostileFork One main Q is if we want to keep percent-encoded URLs copy/pastable into Rebol.
 
So if %foo%20bar != %{foo bar} there's a problem.
 
@HostileFork Again, no problem, if you use double quotes.
 
I do not particularly care for the "double quotes means percent encoded" idea.
 
Good. That's not the idea. The idea is that file! literals are percent-encoded.
 
Because I don't particularly care for %"foo bar" being different from %{foo bar}
In any case, this all seems like something that can have various pins put in it and then the design is what is left over when the pins are down. The main thing from my point of view is the shift to giving URL! a similar treatment to FILE! and doing so via @. Then letting NewPath step in to process the non-@ and non-% forms, while letting those have slashes in them and still stay strings.
Compared to that pin, the rest is details.
It means @http://foo/baz/bar is not a PATH! and %/foo/baz/bar isn't either.
Which pushes back a bit to a state of compromise where you're not forced into NewPath if you just wanted a string with a type on it.
 
8:21 PM
That pin looks primarily NewPath-determined. Without NewPath, I'm not yet convinced that switching URL! to an @-prefixed form is really the best idea.
 
Pending further notice, I consider NewPath a critical addition, so that's my stance until I try it and decide I don't actually like it.
So far in conception, I like the idea, so I'll have to see the execution.
There is simply no great or revolutionary leap in development productivity in having another string type. It's nice. But it doesn't knock the ball out of the park.
If you come to the language design table and that's all you've got, it looks meager.
I do hope NewPath works, because a chunk of my belief that the dialecting can get interesting hinges on it.
A lot of it has to do with just not being sold on a lot of the classical examples of what Rebol has looked like. I think @rgchris is painting a good picture with what he's doing, and there's other attempts at literacy. But the build scripts in Rebol itself and the other code in there were what I'd call borderline terrible...(and from the inventor himself!) Much of the other Rebol code I've seen is similarly bad.
And I'd like to think that isn't an indictment of the language or method itself, rather just people being in a hurry.
 
If you can get people in a hurry to write good code, then you're probably doing something right.
 
For me, that generally means people writing less code. And in the Rebolverse, that's supposed to be dialects.
I've just had poor luck with dialecting interesting domains.
Rebmu is the most complex, but it's a dialect for dialecting Rebol code. It's not surprising Rebol is good at that. But I don't want to just dialect Rebol code under the rules Rebol programmers are willing to live under.
 
8:37 PM
Let me some time to parse your sentence.
 
Hence the pressure in these new directions to try and pick up some slack I've observed in the parts.
 
You are unlikely to see this pressure coming from the Satisfied Customers like DocKimbel, who thought Rebol2 was more or less what he needed. His complaints were that it's not fast enough (in development timeline or raw performance), not that he was trying a dialect trick and he couldn't do what he wanted in a representation.
In fact, when he does take on a crusade it's something about optimization. Like "there's no way to specify a small integer number in hex for my assembler".
 
:D
 
So the complaints I have are from a whole different worldview.
 
8:40 PM
It seems that the world needs people like both of you combined to get great things done.
 
We'll see. In theory, the best of both systems can be used.
 
In theory :)
And in theory, practice works.
 
@Morwenn For mellow, lately: Royksopp - Forever
I don't especially like @ as the sigil for URLs, I just can't think of a better one. The good news being that in NewPath, most of the time you wouldn't use it... and you wouldn't want to, because unless you have some very particularly good performance reason you'd rather get the evaluator to run for you.
I don't like % as the sigil for files, but again NewPath offers some hope to maybe even get rid of those a lot of the time.
 
@HostileFork Chillout piece. I like that :)
Fun fact: among Rebol's litrals, the % for files is also among the ones I don't like.
 
data: read /usr/local/stuff/thing.dat is something I think should work in NewPath, where a PATH! led with a NONE! in the first slot is rendered like that and evaluates to a FILE!.
Facilitating also data: read /usr/["lo" "cal"]/(reverse "ffuts")/thing.dat
 
8:50 PM
Quick poll: should R3 continue to look for command-line arguments to the interpreter even after a script?
 
Would it work with relatives paths?
 
Currently:
$ rebol3 foo.r -v
Rebol 3 2.102.0.4.40
 
@Morwenn You'd have to quote it and do to-file, assuming read was only able to take FILE! and not written to take a path and do it for you. data: read to-file 'some/relative/path
TO-FILE of a PATH! could do evaluation, and as it's a path it should be bound so that you could pass it to something that could also decide to do the evaluation.
@earl Well it shouldn't ignore it, so it should error if it doesn't process it.
 
Or should any arguments after the first script be passed on to the script as arguments.
 
Or should you be able to invoke more than one script, or if that's your intention use a --do which lets you switch over to explicit management of ordering.
I'd lean to saying it can only run one script.
And passes everything after it to that script.
 
8:56 PM
@HostileFork So do I, strongly. Again: good CLI citizen. Nothing wrong with doing as almost every other interpreter does, in this case.
If the interpreter does eat arguments even after the initial script, it should at least support -- to explicitly be told to stop doing so.
 
9:18 PM
Evening. I think it should behave like @earl suggested.
 
Yip
 
@HostileFork @earl Could we perhaps just make file! a url!, with a proper scheme?
Example: file://foo.baz or even %://foo.baz
It's only three more characters.
 
@earl Another idea on the builds, to do gnu89 and gnu99 on the linux builds, then maybe c++98 and c++11 on the Windows builds?
@iceflow19 Among the many issues is that really, FILE! is supposed to be a "tinkertoy" part. Another kind of string. So %foo can mean something in your dialect.
 
It's true that it could make sense for a file:// URI to be automagically converted to a file! even though it's debatable.
 
Since we want it anyway, forcing everything to be file:// when that's not the representation you wanted is a problem.
You don't really want to muck up what you LOADed too drastically.
 
9:27 PM
Well, it makes sense.
 
And while it's not the best type-checking in the world, I will use FILE! / STRING! distinctions at times in function parameters.
 
@HostileFork Well if want it as a tinkertoy part then we not just leave as that? Make %blah of a file! type. Have it be non grabby, and allow it to be composed with other file!'s, and when it comes time to actually use it to access a filesystem resource require that at their root they have a %:// or file:// scheme.
Treat it like any old word in a path. foo/%bar/baz (Having 3 elements)
 
My initial idea was to have %foo/baz/bar be 3 elements, and foo/%baz/bar the same
And as we're still talking about options, I might suggest that it's not the end of the world if you want a path to need to use quotes. %"foo/baz/bar" and %{foo/baz/bar} aren't terrible.
Especially when you consider full paths under NewPath are considering that if you start with just a / then you get a NONE! first element which cues it to evaluate to a FILE!
So it would just be relative paths that would have the quoting burden.
And same for URL!. It's only the tricky URLs where you don't want paths that you quote.
@"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_(programming_language)"
Which you might also write as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/{Red_(programming_language)} and get a PATH! and evaluation.
Or for that matter: https:/{/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_(programming_language)}
So that would turn %foo and @bar into things with word-like rules, that produced string types, whose construction syntax uses quotes or braces.
 
9:42 PM
While I think its nice that we have the three datatypes file! path! and url! The syntactic overlap between them make it a mess when we try use them with path! (acting as a swiss army knife). In my mind you either have three options, converge them, diverge them or escape them.
 
It's an interesting concept to push them to be more word like in their rules, and then think of them as "needing construction syntax to break those rules"
And just having a particularly short form construction syntax. %{...} %"..." @{...} @"..."
Combined with a bet that most of the time you'd prefer to use "full FILE!" or "full URL!" instead of fragments, you might get away with a PATH! a lot of the time, as in the original NewPath intention.
But things like parentheses, as above, aren't legal naturals in words...while they may be used unescaped in URLs.
Rebol source would still be clean, but people looking at the data in the Ren/JSON-competitor format would be displeased that all the path-like % and @ have additional delimiters.
The thing being all of this, as @earl says, banks on NewPath. No NewPath, no point.
 
posted on July 26, 2015 by abolka

[Bug] Currently, the interpreter tries to parse _all_ command-line arguments as arguments to the interpreter. See the example code for a few example cases. Example cases (1), (2), and (3), in combination, are arguably bugs. The bug being, that there must be a way to pass arguments of every shape (OS limitations notwithstanding) to a script. Otherwise, making Rebol scripts fit nicely into other

 
Well, question from a dialecting standpoint, does file fragments offer anything beyond what a word or a path can offer? Or is the only thing it offers the fact that you have an extra sigil?
An example would be useful.
 
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