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1:00 AM
@HostileFork I can only say ... and I'm proud of only saying this ... stunning, incredible, and AWESOME.
@HostileFork I am hoping soon it'll just be a call-out to a VM address to obtain the 1K of platform-specific library.
Then we can talk about "the target OS" and who cares who owns the trademark on the OS name.
"Point your builder to a VM from <webpage of target VMs>, and whammo! Rebol for its ilk is sitting on your removable drive."
 
1:22 AM
@MarkI Well, time for some TCC building of Ren/C... .... ....
Looked like @earl had the Linux going.
So I'm often bothered by the FILE! vs. FILENAME! distinction.
I feel like FILENAME! is better.
It would be as if a URL! was called WEBPAGE!
It's not precisely wrong in a sense. A URL! is a reasonable answer to "Which webpage was it that had the problem?"
But more things than webpages are fetched through URLs.
 
posted on July 24, 2015 by fork

[Comment] The reflector for functions was doing an Unbind_Block on the copy of the body before returning it. As you say, this makes the body fairly useless. On a mechanical level, there is an argument against allowing words bound to function locals to "escape". In FUNCTION!s, the words are bound "stack relative"...which is to say that once you get them out of the function they're in, you can

 
@rgchris --^
The argument for FILE! would be that Rebol uses PORT! to talk about what would be a stream or a file in other languages, so it's sort of a "free term" to redefine.
But still you want to talk to characterize a file by things like its length. And the length of a filename and the length of a file are different conceptual things.
 
1:43 AM
posted on July 24, 2015 by fork

[Issue] @rgchris reported that the following is interpreted as a path to a command, if you do not use the /SHELL refinement: >> call {curl http://rebol.info} ** Access error: external process failed: "No such file or directory" ** Where: call ** Near: call "curl http://rebol.info" That seems like it would be reasonable if it had been passed a FILE!, like: >> call %"curl http://rebol.info" I

 
@HostileFork For the record, I 100% agree, filename is better. However, that being said, I also completely understand this:
1) Hey, let's pick a name for a disk file access point. You know, a file name.
2) How about "filename"?
3) That's cool! Oops, turns out filename is a relative thing, it is relative to a directory.
4) What are those called?
5) Pathnames.
6) Oorg. Gonna have to be "file" then.
And, also for the record, I know that calling them "linealnames" is not better. To anyone but me, that is!
 
2:14 AM
@MarkI Good you know that. One must start somewhere. :-)
 
3:05 AM
Turns out there are three kinds of restrictions on lineal validity, not including the "bare word must be first" one.
There are certain lexical forms that are not preserved if they occur in a medial position.
There are different lexical forms that are not preserved if they occur in the final position of all paths but set-paths.
And there are -- still different -- lexical forms that are not preserved if they occur in the final position of a set-path.
Hopefully you didn't miss that I was using "lexical forms" rather than "lexemes" here.
That is because, OF COURSE, there are some values that have two lexical forms, one restricted and the other not.
Finally, just to add ... spice ... to this stew, any type that can be converted has different restrictions if it's in converter form.
[[2 lines up] replace "values" "types"]
Just for fun, here are the only types all of whose lexical forms have no restrictions at all in any descendant path position:
word! get-word! lit-word! tag! binary! char! integer! paren!
8 out of 28. Not counting converters, of course. Tuples and pairs would join the list if those were allowed.
And, let me be complete here, issues, emails, and times.
Amusingly, my lexical fixes reduce these restrictions, but only on types that have further restrictions I haven't fixed yet, darn it.
 
3:42 AM
--------------------- Executive summary: 24 restriction codes (primaries minus lineals):
NYY NNN YYY yyN YYN YYY NYN YYN YYN NYN NYN YYY YYY NNN YYY NYN YYN yYN YYY YYY NNN NNN YYN YYY
Little y's mean only some of the lexical forms are not restricted; lineals are of course restricted everywhere.
Chiclet points if you can guess which four types are the other NNN ones ...
 
4:12 AM
Just a wee reminder of why we do this (part whatever): perusing the Safari is the new IE 'debate' doing the rounds, a lot of folk are bumping their gums about Safari holding back native-speed application development by not fully supporting the vision of those that intend to contort HTMLJS to that end(!). All the while there's a language designed as lightweight, distributable, cross-platform, expressive of applications and the data that drives them. Rebol is what everyone is looking for, still.
2
 
@rgchris Thanks, I never tire of hearing that sort of thing. Gives me hope in at least two ways, my future and Rebol's.
 
@MarkI Mine too :)
 
5:08 AM
Not entirely unrelated: Web Design: The First 100 Years
 
 
5 hours later…
10:17 AM
posted on July 24, 2015 by qtxie

FEAT: reduce flickering when drawing image by qtxie

 
 
2 hours later…
11:49 AM
0
Q: unique for a block doesn't remove duplicates

LuisThe strings are part of urls of which I stripped out the base. parse detects four urls in some html file. I've narrowed down the problem to this: REBOL [] images: [{,W,H,wi,1TV1Rvu8EF9FDdUxKy+hTKK/RNifw3WQDJEI/sYkX78tyNifGd0/U4RpaBox1rO448B4dv24sYoTgxOMVC7Lz5J9sJXlk0nkM89n55HzX7qbRiX/cSkd3lepAE...

 
12:19 PM
1
A: unique for a block doesn't remove duplicates

rebolekUNIQUE does not modify original series. Whether function modifies is usually mentioned in it's help string, see SORT for example. Just set your block to the result of UNIQUE, like this: >> a: [1 2 3 4 3 4 4] == [1 2 3 4 3 4 4] >> unique a == [1 2 3 4] >> a == [1 2 3...

 
1:02 PM
@earl GitHub support says there's not anything they can do immediately about the pings, are sorry for the inconvenience, and have noted my suggestions on improving it to the development team. I wonder if the answer about being able to do anything would be different if we were paying them? :-/ Ah well.
Canaries and coal-mines...the usual reminder to stay in control of things if they are important to you.
 
1:14 PM
Hello @Ashley, welcome... as you see, you need 20 points to chat (a sort of anti-spam bar, it seems to work). They're easy to get. As I said in my comment, you can even throw in your 2 cents on an old Rebol question that's been answered but you think you have another angle. Or ask one, even one you know the answer to if it's a good question worth having institutional knowledge about.
(StackOverlow has even condoned people doing "Flash Mobs" and taking old FAQ questions from their language and posting them as new Q&A.)
 
1:45 PM
posted on July 24, 2015 by fork

[Bug] Validation checks noticed a problem with the code in #2050: o: make object! [n: 'o b: reduce [func [] [n]]] p: make o [n: 'p] o/b/1 ; == p - o expected! In the logic of Rebol, in the pattern o/b/XXX where o/b resolves to a function, the /XXX is processed as a refinement. It is *technically* possible to say that integers would behave differently somehow, as function refinements can't be

posted on July 24, 2015 by fork

[Comment] See #2226. o/b/1 should be (o/b)/1

 
@rgchris Agree? ^--
@Ashley Note that among the nice features of StackOverflow is wiki-like editability (done via "edit suggestions" for the posts of others until one gets a certain number of points, but you get it for your own posts from the start) along with nice diff views and the ability to link to any specific version...
 
2
Q: Does anyone have an efficient R3 function that mimics the behaviour of find/any in R2?

AshleyRebol2 has an /ANY refinement on the FIND function that can do wildcard searches: >> find/any "here is a string" "s?r" == "string" I use this extensively in tight loops that need to perform well. But the refinement was removed in Rebol3. What's the most efficient way of doing this in Rebol3?...

 
2:02 PM
@HostileFork Wouldn't o/b/1 be an error? (not a Star Wars reference)
 
@rgchris Well, it currently isn't an error. It just drops the 1. I'm making it an error, so now it would say: ** Script error: b has no refinement called 1
 
Right.
Was the /ANY refinement actually removed from FIND in Rebol 3 or is it just not implemented? If the functionality is deprecated, shouldn't it say so when you try to use it?
 
@rgchris Not yet implemented.
@HostileFork Well, I am actually paying them, so we can find out.
 
@earl Is that money coming out of your own pocket? Does Rebol 3 need financial contributions?
 
2:18 PM
^-- need a couple more upvotes here to allow Ashley to chat.
 
@MarkI Yes, but I'm not paying them specifically for R3.
 
@Ashley congrats, you are now at 21 points. It takes a bit of time (15-30min) for that to roll over to the chat servers, but should be done shortly.
 
@HostileFork ENDIAN_LITTLE -> LITTLE_ENDIAN, fine with me.
So, and I guess I'm now going to have to double-check for all fixes previously merged into rebolsource/r3. It seems that the "unforking" towards Atronix undid a lot of them.
 
2:35 PM
@earl I think I read too much into the "forked from rebolsource/r3", so that's a good idea.
 
@HostileFork And a lot of work :/
Especially as as far as Git is concerned, it looks like the changes where undone on purpose.
So the original fix commits are already in the history, with their effects later removed. So I can't simply merge again, as that'll simply result in a no-op.
 
@earl If history rewriting to undo the undoing commits is helpful, feel free to do so if you can let me know when you are doing it.
 
@HostileFork History rewriting to again drop Atronix would be helpful :))
/me ducks
Joking aside, I'll see if I can find a simple way to achieve proper merges. If that comes with any rewriting, I'll let you know. But I hope that won't be necessary.
 
Arrite, let me know. But just a reminder that less "prudent" methods that work are still ok at this point.
 
Now I'm wondering if I should submit those fixes to @ShixinZeng's branch as well, while we are at it.
 
2:41 PM
Would be nice if it's not too much extra work.
 
But first, the LAUNCH fix.
 
 
1 hour later…
3:43 PM
@HostileFork Blindly force-pushing is not a good idea. You just dropped a few of my commits ...
 
@earl Oops. Sorry about that. I've been in the habit, if you and I are going to be both integrating and not using PRs then we need to do something about that.
 
@HostileFork Yeah, don't force push.
And if you absolutely have to, be very careful about it.
 
I prefer to have the commit history clean, so that means basically I have to now work off on a branch and send PRs to myself. I'm happy to do it.
If we're to that point.
 
I'm not sure why one implies the other.
 
Well, if I don't have my own enlistment (I currently do not) and I want to react to a Travis build failure, I have to patch things. Like "oh that didn't make it into the commit" etc.
Otherwise it's lots of little things in the history of me trying to fix up something that caused a Travis build failure.
I guess I don't need an enlistment, I could send the PRs from branches in Ren/C
 
3:47 PM
Then only push things into master that you know work :)
You don't need to send PRs at all (we sure can do that, eventually; but I don't think there's a need right now). Just don't overwrite master at will.
 
Well, I'll do more git stash -k and then full build and then push. Adds a step when breaking up commits.
 
If you want something Travis tested, push it do a branch first. Travis will pick it up there. If it's good and you are happy with it, push it to master.
 
Doesn't Travis require a PR to build? How do I check the build status on a branch that isn't a PR?
 
You can use branches in metaeducation/ren-c for that pre-flight testing, of course. Cleaner would the to use branches in your personal fork.
@HostileFork Travis builds every commit, on all branches, by default.
 
Ah. Ok. Well, that's fine then.
Didn't know.
I'll do that.
 
3:51 PM
Ok. Unless there's a good reason, I'd suggest you pre-flight test in your personal fork.
So force-push ren-c master into github.com/hostilefork/rebol, and setup Travis for your repo as well: travis-ci.org/profile/hostilefork (should have a toggle for your hostilefork/rebol repo on there somewhere).
 
4:17 PM
@MarkI If you think unicode character classes should have the likes of symbol? then it starts making it seem like lowercase? should be letter?/lowercase. Hm. There was also the question of whether that should be find letter/lowercase char, but you might want to ask if a whole string is lowercase too. But if you can do that with lowercase? str should you be able to say symbol? str and it return true if all the characters in the string are symbols?
 
Attn everyone who built or wants to build Windows/x64: target id for 64-bit Windows is now back to 0.3.3, in Ren/C (cc/@iceflow19, @ShixinZeng, @kealist, @moliad).
 
@earl I saw Shixin going with 0.3.40 in one of his commits, which is what I suggested in an issue.
 
@HostileFork As mentioned in the issue, 0.3.3 is what is used in the other forks at the moment.
Jul 19 at 21:11, by earl
@HostileFork For this very particular question, I'd suggest that 64-bit Windows x86 would be probably nice as "0.3.40", as we then have all the current "major" platforms on .40 for their 64-bit variations.
 
Fine w/me
 
So obviously no objections with switching to 0.3.40, if Shixin agrees and we do that concertedly.
I also saw 0.3.40 passing by somewhere, probably in his CMake attempts.
 
4:21 PM
In current Atronix builds, it's 0.3.3 for 64-bit windows, probably came from Saphirion code
But I don't think we rely on this id yet
if we do, we can change the code accordingly
 
So, want to switch to 0.3.40?
 
Yep
FYI, I got initial integration of FFI to the cmake build system
 
Ok, let's do that, then. @ShixinZeng please have a look at one of the pending pull requests I sent you a few minutes ago, first. It restructures platforms.r, so will conflict with a 0.3.40 change.
 
It only builds on 64-bit Linux systems yet, and I got a runtime error when testing FFI functions
 
@HostileFork I don't see why not, but full Unicode integration can be thorny. Am I missing a concern you foresee?
 
4:25 PM
@earl OK. I will
 
@MarkI Just glanced across a piece of code I'd written along the lines of str = lowercase str and wondered if there should be a lowercase? which worked on both characters and strings. When I thought of it, it just struck me that there's a lot of questions raised by that. Having the charset of lowercase characters is the most general tool; you can use it in parse and such, so I'd been suggesting letter/lowercase yield that charset.
But now there's a large matrix of convenience functions you might want on top of that so you don't have to say find letter/lowercase ch. Also, I will add that lowercase doesn't sound obviously like a verb, in terms of modifying the target.
 
4:45 PM
@HostileFork Lowercase is an adjectival phrase consisting of an adjective and a noun, so it clearly is not a verb.
Unfortunately, the naive "to-lowercase" that in any other language I would write, may be obfuscating in the Rebol world.
 
TO-* as verbs are not considered modifying.
So the question is, if there is to be a modifying lowercase, what to call it? lowercasify?
 
@HostileFork Un-capitalize?
 
@MarkI It seems that usage as verb is growing increasingly common, however. Merriam-Webster has a "Definition of LOWERCASE / transitive verb / : to print or set in lowercase letters" entry.
 
decapitalize
 
decapitate (couldn't resist, sorry)
 
4:48 PM
Hm, capitalize is transitive. I guess lowercase doesn't have such a term?
21
Q: Is there an antonym for “capitalize” (as in letter-case)

SynetechA word that starts with a lower-case (lowercase?) letter can be capitalized, but what is the converse action? Google has only one page in the top results that addresses this and the closest thing to a proposed answer is decapitalize, which trips spell-checkers, so de-capitalize.

"For various reasons, Unicode defines three cases, not two; the third case is called titlecase, and it is specifically designed for the casing of the initial letter in a capitalized word."
Oh joy.
 
OK, Windows/x64 target id switched to 0.3.40 in Ren/C, Rebolsource, and the pull request pending to mainline.
 
@earl But will the mainline maintainer accept it...
May 22 at 21:39, by Respectech
@HostileFork Carl made it explicitly clear to me that Andreas had the keys to move rebol/rebol forward, up to and including assigning other admins.
 
@earl Merriam-Webster is a piece of crap. If it's not in the Oxford, it's not English. Oxford has both of these as two words.
@HostileFork You are just beginning to feel the joy of Unicode casing. You have no idea of the depth of the joy to come ...
 
@earl Well, I guess if you pay, you can have any word you want be English :)
But it now occurs to me that 'oxforddictionaries.com' may have less than no connection to the Oxford English Dictionary.
I'll do some more digging.
 
5:04 PM
@MarkI Well, the OED lists an entry for lowercase as transitive verb:
 
@earl As I thought, two words until 2010. Thanks!
 
@MarkI Added to the OED in the 2013 ed.
 
Slightly newer than mine, which I believe is from 1956.
 
@MarkI Don't want you to get too distracted from Rebol linguistics, but it can be interesting to debate and learn language from the perspective of a learner on English Language Learners
 
@HostileFork Funny, I just looked there. lower case: "Few English speakers likely know this word."
 
5:10 PM
Well, it suggests that perhaps we embrace it with lowercase and uppercase as transitive verbs and point to rationale, then have to-lower and to-upper for non-mutating forms.
 
@HostileFork :: Concurrence ::
 
I think ultimately the artifact of Rebol can become quite interesting for having gone through all this process and bring things into line with rationale...and a rationale that actually is such that the global standardization of terminology and usage through the Internet might dovetail with.
There's an aspect in which language is stabilizing, in sort of the way that globalization creates a kind of "monoculture".
lowercase #"A" should thus fail.
It would be nice to have some way to graft in errors on something like that where it would "know what you meant" and tell you if lowercase got a character! that it alert you about to-lower. I've noticed that "did you mean?" is getting rather pervasive as a feature in compilers and tools.
 
 
3 hours later…
8:01 PM
    SERIES!
    POSITION!

    IDENTITY!
    SET-WORD!
Position ties at 8 characters with our previously established "probably as long as a type name can be" standard. It is two characters longer than series.
if (series-of pos1) = (series-of pos2) [...]
Perhaps a step toward "PredictablePath" would be to allow URL! and FILE! to keep their slashes as naturals, and not force them to be paths. With @ starting URL! and % starting files, this could be seen as not materially different from slashes inside of strings.
As I've reasoned that /foo/(reverse "olleH") should resolve to the file %/foo/Hello, the only question would be how to generate file fragments that don't start from a root path yet use path composition.
Is http://hostilefork.com//////////////////////// a valid URI?
According to this URI validator site, no.
Or perhaps I'm thinking of it the wrong way. If your path is not complete, then it usually would be stuck onto something. Maybe TO-FILE of a PATH! would evaluate that path under such rules, so to-file 'foo/["Hello" 1 + 2] would give you %foo/Hello3
Which would be the same result as:

bar: %foo
bar/["Hello" 1 + 2]
Or even (%foo)/["Hello" 1 + 2]
@MarkI ...but then there's your favorite problem category: foo/baz/%bar/mumble.html.
Which is part of what forcing all the URL! and FILE! to obey the path composition rules was supposed to avoid...
Perhaps that could be an error and require you to say either foo/baz/%"bar/mumble.html" or foo/baz/file!{bar}/mumble.html
 
 
1 hour later…
9:35 PM
Generated files should, in addition to saving their generated date and time, notice if the file timestamp differs (more than some delta) from that generation time, and not just overwrite the file...but warn you that you modified it.
I am thinking that all files in the source should use Rebol headers.
/*************************************************************
Ren/C [
    Auto-Generated: TRUE
    Date: 24-Jul-2015/17:37:47-4:00
    Description: {
         Write description stuff here.
    }
]
******************************************************************/
So rebol.net has been down, and that search penalty on Google for being down seems to have hit.
 
 
1 hour later…
10:57 PM
@Morwenn I'm coming up with a little C/C++ puzzle. Let's say you were willing to go through your codebase and mark all your return types on functions somehow, say instead of return an int you return an R(int).
In a C build let's say that R(int) just turns into int. But in a C++ build, let's say it wraps it in a type that is invisible 99% of the time and it will act just like the type it wrapped. The exception is when you have a "no R's allowed". So you have a macro for saying that, and it disappears in C builds but you use it in macros which reuse their arguments multiple times.
This way if you try to pass a function return result to one of those macros it will realize that you're actually going to wind up calling that function multiple times, and give you a static_assert.
This isn't functional programming, so you can't "detect expressions with side-effects" (outside of constexpr, but that's compile-time restrictive, so not too useful generally). But at least you can catch at compile time cases where you may be screwing up (or at least having worse performance than you intend). And if you don't care, you could "disarm" it at the callsite. Or just make certain exempt functions not use R(...) returns.
 
11:52 PM
Make a class with an operator int() and use std::is_same to check whether it's explicitly int or whether it's R(int)?
Tinker something with conversions. I don't 100% get what you're trying to do since I'm tired but you can probably craft something with explicit conversions, type traits, SFINAE or something.
 

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